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View Full Version : Other Tricksters Shard vs Third Eye of Tzeentch



warplock
03-02-2013, 11:33
Applies to anything which forces you to reroll successful ward saves (OTS, Banishment from Lore of Life, don't know if there are any more). If you pass your ward save and the OTS makes you reroll it, and you roll a 1 on the reroll, can you reroll that with the Third Eye of Tzeentch? I know 'you can't reroll a reroll', but I always thought of that as more applying to not allowing two rerolls instigated by the same player, whereas this is one from each... don't know why that would make a difference, but just want to check that the answer is 'no' as I suspect it to be...

Mr_Rose
03-02-2013, 12:51
"You can't re-roll a re-roll" does mean exactly that. A die that has already been re-rolled once cannot be rolled again, no matter the cause.

Bloodedsoul
03-02-2013, 13:58
Q: If a model is granted a re-roll To Hit from a special rule such
as Hatred but the model they are attacking has a special rule,
magic item etc. that forces successful To Hit rolls to be re-rolled,
how is this dealt with? (p7)
A: They cancel each other out and no re-rolls are made for as
long as both special rules are in effect.

Does that have any bearing on it? I'm just being curious as to what others think.

GenOmar
03-02-2013, 17:21
Q: If a model is granted a re-roll To Hit from a special rule such
as Hatred but the model they are attacking has a special rule,
magic item etc. that forces successful To Hit rolls to be re-rolled,
how is this dealt with? (p7)
A: They cancel each other out and no re-rolls are made for as
long as both special rules are in effect.

Does that have any bearing on it? I'm just being curious as to what others think.

with the combo in question no matter what, you would have to reroll the die (on a success from OTS, and on a 1 from the 3rd eye). since no matter the result the die would be rerolled, the rerolls would cancel each other and the first rresult is kept.

warplock
03-02-2013, 17:50
On a related note, what if the Lord rolled a 1, and rerolled that and got a 3 - would the OTS mean he has to reroll the 3 as well? The 1 wasn't a successful ward save; the OTS requires successful ward saves to be rerolled, so in a way it isn't 'rerolling a reroll'... in a way :confused:

herohammer
03-02-2013, 18:00
You never reroll a reroll. The reroll successful hits vs hatred FAQ is the only time that anything cancels out like that. That ruling was made because that is the only situation where every result would have to be rerolled; all successful and failed roles. There is no similar FAQ for any other kind of opposed reroll mechanics, for instance a unit with both harmonic convergence and curse of the midnight wind would reroll 1s and 6s but if a 1 was rerolled to a 6 it would not be rerolled again following the no rerolling rerolls rule.

I think that this would work like that. Ie. all 3+ roles would be rerolled because of OTS and all 1s would also be rerolled, none of these rerolls would be rerolled by the other effect. The effects do not cancel out as there is still a result, a natural 2, that would not be rerolled by either effect.

hamsterwheel
03-02-2013, 18:54
Any successful ward saves are rerolled on the first roll, any 1s on the first roll are rerolled, after both rerolls, everything is final.

Mr_Rose
03-02-2013, 20:41
Q: If a model is granted a re-roll To Hit from a special rule such
as Hatred but the model they are attacking has a special rule,
magic item etc. that forces successful To Hit rolls to be re-rolled,
how is this dealt with? (p7)
A: They cancel each other out and no re-rolls are made for as
long as both special rules are in effect.

Does that have any bearing on it? I'm just being curious as to what others think.

Not really; it's just the mathematical result of requiring a re-roll of both values of a binary state; after the first roll, there are no dice that will not be re-rolled so you would ordinarily be required to roll all the dice, separate them into hits and misses, then pick up both piles and roll them all again. Which, for fair and random dice, is pointless, hence the FAQ telling you to skip that step.

Bloodedsoul
03-02-2013, 22:03
Thanks, had a feeling but was just curious

stainawarjar
04-02-2013, 16:48
If you managed to have a 2+ ward (not impossible with the right eye of the gods roll), you could just let Third eye and the Other Trickster's Shard cancel each other out, though. Unless you really want to roll all the dice twice.

Kalandros
04-02-2013, 17:04
If you managed to have a 2+ ward (not impossible with the right eye of the gods roll), you could just let Third eye and the Other Trickster's Shard cancel each other out, though. Unless you really want to roll all the dice twice.

Both EotG table & Mark of Tzeentch specifically cap the Ward Saves at 3+.

stainawarjar
04-02-2013, 17:18
Both EotG table & Mark of Tzeentch specifically cap the Ward Saves at 3+.

Ah, I didn't notice. Good.

ElBeaver
06-02-2013, 11:29
Based on the ruling that you cannot reroll more than once there are two scenarios:

1. you roll a 1 on your wardsave TEoT allows you to reroll - the result is final (TEoT cancels out OTS if you make the ward-save)
2. you make the ward-save and OTS forces you to reroll - the result is final (OTS cancel out TEoT if you roll a 1 on the reroll)

ZigZagMan
07-02-2013, 00:23
No, heres what happens (assuming a 3+ ward save).
You roll your ward saves, you pull out the 2's, they are failed saves and there is no rule allowing you to reroll then here. you then pick up the remaining 3+ dice rolls due to other tricksters shard, and also pick up the 1's due to TEOT. now you reroll all of those dice, any 3+'s are saves, and any 1's and 2's are failures. All dice that could be rerolled have been rerolled so this result stands.

Kalandros
07-02-2013, 06:48
Based on the ruling that you cannot reroll more than once there are two scenarios:

1. you roll a 1 on your wardsave TEoT allows you to reroll - the result is final (TEoT cancels out OTS if you make the ward-save)
2. you make the ward-save and OTS forces you to reroll - the result is final (OTS cancel out TEoT if you roll a 1 on the reroll)

Neither of those make any sort of sense with the rules.
Effects that are EXACT opposites would cancel out.
Reroll rolls of 1 on Wards and Reroll succesful Wards are not at all conflicting or enough to negate each other.

T10
08-02-2013, 10:20
Indeed. Assume a 4+ Ward save:

1 - Re-roll due to Third Eye of Tzeentch.
2 - No re-roll.
3 - No re-roll.
4 - Re-roll due to the Shard.
5 - Re-roll due to the Shard.
6 - Re-roll due to the Shard.

Resolving these properly, there is a 67% (4/6) chance of each inital roll causing a re-roll, and each re-roll has a 50% (3/6) chance of resulting in a success. The character therefore has a 33% (12/36) chance of making a successfull save (4/6 x 3/6 = 12/36).

Allowing the rules to cancel each other out yields a 50% (3/6) chance of success. The difference is significant.

-T10

The bearded one
08-02-2013, 11:03
Herohammer laid out the example nicel. imagine a 4+ ward with eye of tzeentch and other trickster's shard:

Roll all the dice.
Take out all succesful rolls because of the tricksters shard
Take out all rolls of 1 because of third eye of tzeentch
Leaves the 2's and 3's, these have been failed and are final.
Reroll the 1's, 4's, 5's and 6's, which either failed or succeeded and have to be reroll due to the items.
The result produced by the reroll dice (and the ones that did not need to be rerolled) are final.


All the rerolls in the saving step are made at the same time, not applied one after the other.