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View Full Version : Karl Franz, Why is Deathclaw SO big?



Ealdwulf
03-02-2013, 14:16
I know this might be a critique a bit too late, as this model came out a while ago.

Firstly, I appreciate the epic scale of Warhammer as much as the next fan...but sometimes I feel they go overboard.

The High Elf Prince from Island of Blood and Karl Franz supposedly ride on the species of animal correct? Then why is Deathclaw 4 times the size of the High Elf Griffon?

Sure you can say "oh he's supposed to be special!" Yet it is the same size griffon for the wizard mount. Will the Bretonnian king get a like-size mount when he gets re-released?

I don't know, I just think the beast looks silly, what about you guys, is there any good explication of the size?

DaemonReign
03-02-2013, 14:24
Yes that model is unreasonably big.
It probably just came out that way from the design-studio.
Makes for a cool center-piece if you're using Karl Franz of course..
But yeah I concider it a fail too because the size does not reflect its stats and it makes the other Gryphon models look like newly hatched chickens.. Which is a shame.

Nubl0
03-02-2013, 14:29
Except for the fact that they are not the same breed of gryphon, and even have stats and fluff that indicates that. On that note I love the model and often take a general on imperial gryphon who is affectionately known as the power pigeon in my gaming area after going berserk and eating a DP for slaying his master.

Hawkwood
03-02-2013, 14:30
I was really sad when they released the new griffon model. I was that time converting a griffon from Island of blood for my empire general but suddenly you must ride this giant beast instead of a small normal griffon. I would have liked it more if you still had the option to ride a normal griffon instead of a giant imperial one.

Ealdwulf
03-02-2013, 14:32
Where is this stated (not arguing the point, I'm just curious).

DaemonReign
03-02-2013, 14:35
Yes Deathclaw has slightly better stats, and the Imperial Gryphons in general are a bit buffed too...
But the 'difference' is just too much when it comes to the size of the models.. At least for me.

Ealdwulf
03-02-2013, 14:38
Yes Deathclaw has slightly better stats, and the Imperial Gryphons in general are a bit buffed too...
But the 'difference' is just too much when it comes to the size of the models.. At least for me.

Empire was one of my main choices for which army to start next, and I know I don't HAVE to use that model, or Karl Franz - but it bothers me so much that I'm considering sticking with another army until Dwarfs get re-done.

Rakariel
03-02-2013, 14:38
Fluff wise the griffons from ulthuan are a completely different breed. Thats why empire griffons and especially Karl Franz`s Deathclaw are way bigger and look different. A dragon from the empirial zoo doesnt have to look like a sundragon neither.

BigbyWolf
03-02-2013, 14:45
The High Elf Prince from Island of Blood and Karl Franz supposedly ride on the species of animal correct? Then why is Deathclaw 4 times the size of the High Elf Griffon?

Because one was included in a boxed set meant for beginners where the models usually tend to be cheaper to produce, the other is a centrepiece model.

Ealdwulf
03-02-2013, 14:47
Fluff wise the griffons from ulthuan are a completely different breed. Thats why empire griffons and especially Karl Franz`s Deathclaw are way bigger and look different. A dragon from the empirial zoo doesnt have to look like a sundragon neither.

Valid point. I'm less concerned with the model being large I suppose, and more for the reasoning behind it, as you say "fluff wise". Where does it state this sort of background, the new Empire Book?

Misfratz
03-02-2013, 14:48
I tend to think that it's not that Deathclaw is so big, but that the griffon in Island of Blood is too small.

As BigbyWolf says, this is explicable because of the need to squeeze it into the starter set - but the disparity is large enough that they would have been better off giving the Prince in Island of Blood a great eagle for a mount, rather than a Griffon, in my opinion.

Nubl0
03-02-2013, 14:49
The gryphons used by the nobles of the empire have been selectively bred through the generations for more power and endurance than their wild counterparts, however this does come at the cost of some agility if the lower int value is anything to go by. Is it too large for a gryphon, maybe but not by much seeing as it has an increased wound and str profile over the smaller ones, the reason I think it's large is gw wanted the empire to have a nice centrepiece monster like most of the new armies. I for one am glad they did this instead of hamfisting a new big monster in the rare slot. Compare it to the chimera model and it's profile and I think the size is fine.

Rakariel
03-02-2013, 14:52
In the empire book its said that "only the strongest, cleverest etc. griffons are singled out and that they are far "larger than their wild counterparts". Deathclaw is reputed as the "mightiest imperial griffon that ever lived". Hope that helps :)

trotsky
03-02-2013, 16:10
Its like comparing a lion/eagle with a leopard/falcon. But yeah i for one prefer the old empire griffon

Bingo the Fun Monkey
03-02-2013, 16:57
An Old English Mastiff and a Chihuahua are the same species. I'll bet they get different stats.

Ealdwulf
03-02-2013, 21:27
An Old English Mastiff and a Chihuahua are the same species. I'll bet they get different stats.

So what you're saying is, even though they're both Gryphons, they're different types eh?

Xerkics
03-02-2013, 21:44
CLearly DeathClaw or as i like to call him " Beefcake the Griffon" is so fat cause he ate all the other animals in the imperial Zoo :p

Asensur
03-02-2013, 21:58
Best possible explanation is this one:

http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/whippet
http://animalslook.com/schwarzenegger-dog/

Plus this one: http://www.eastlothiandogtrainingclub.co.uk/Agility.php

A combination of genes + training

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 06:00
its suposed to be like that to show the diffrence between a 'wild' griffon and capative one. the high elf griffons are free and natrual beings while empire ones are the result of breeding.
Also deathclaw is made to look like a heraldric creature.

the're the same spcies but diffrent races (race used proparly in a fantasy discussion who would've thought).

Artinam
04-02-2013, 07:56
I guess its like different kinds of dog. One is a Wolf, the other is a raised and trained fightning dog being bred for fighting over generations. More brutal and stronger but less cunning.

jtrowell
04-02-2013, 08:49
I was really sad when they released the new griffon model. I was that time converting a griffon from Island of blood for my empire general but suddenly you must ride this giant beast instead of a small normal griffon. I would have liked it more if you still had the option to ride a normal griffon instead of a giant imperial one.


Use your smaller griffon with the rules for a pegasus mount, it fit perfectly, and you can even fiel both your converted model and the official Empire Griffon in the same army.

And you will also find that a captain on pegasus (or in your case young/wild/small griffon) is very fun to use and effective.

lbecks
04-02-2013, 08:55
It ate a lot of horse meat.

trotsky
04-02-2013, 09:30
It ate a lot of horse meat.

They fed it on tesco beef burgers?? Someone call the RSPCG!

Shi An De
04-02-2013, 11:15
Alternatively just use the Isle of Blood Griffon and call it a griffon. Where does it say that Empire players *must* use the Imperial Griffon model?

jtrowell
04-02-2013, 11:35
Alternatively just use the Isle of Blood Griffon and call it a griffon. Where does it say that Empire players *must* use the Imperial Griffon model?

If he wants to do that, then he should at least put the model on a chariot base, to prevent being accused of modeling for advantage.

Spang
04-02-2013, 11:45
Selective breeding has given us all species of dogs ( originally wolves ). Selective breeding has also given us domestic cows.

Imperial Griffons are nothing but the result of selective breeding.

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 13:27
having had access to magi the last 200 years probably help too

Shi An De
04-02-2013, 13:47
If he wants to do that, then he should at least put the model on a chariot base, to prevent being accused of modeling for advantage.

Well, I have the original Karl Franz on Deathclaw model, the metal one. It is on the base that it was supplied with. Are you suggesting I should re-base it given the new release?

stainawarjar
04-02-2013, 14:12
So what you're saying is, even though they're both Gryphons, they're different types eh?

What are you talking about? This thread is about Griffons ;)

Lord Solar Plexus
04-02-2013, 14:41
Well, my name's not Karl Franz but if you'd ask "LSP, why is Deathclaw so big?" I would of course reply "So that he can better rip you apart!"

Because while the thought of inbreeding those roosters is vaguely amusing, I think the real reason is not to be found in biology.

King Arthur
04-02-2013, 15:14
I think it looks awesome when huge and love the broad chest making it look and proud like an imperial griffon. And love the model and wished all GW looked as good as it.

Agoz
04-02-2013, 16:19
Well, I have the original Karl Franz on Deathclaw model, the metal one. It is on the base that it was supplied with. Are you suggesting I should re-base it given the new release?

Yes, you need to rebase your model at the very least.

jtrowell
07-02-2013, 11:15
Well, I have the original Karl Franz on Deathclaw model, the metal one. It is on the base that it was supplied with. Are you suggesting I should re-base it given the new release?


GW has an official policy that if you have an older model from them then you can still field it with the base it came with, preventing a new model from making older ones obsolete.

Of course, it's still not a bad idea to rebase the model if you can, but your model should still be useable in an official GW tournament.

Note: instead of trying to remove the original base to glue the model on a larger one, it is often better to just prepare a sub-base of the appropriate size that you will put your current one on top. This way you won't have to lose the work already done on the current base, and if needed you will still able to use the smaller base (for using the model as a captain on pegasus for exemple)

Daniel36
07-02-2013, 11:27
Except for the fact that they are not the same breed of gryphon, and even have stats and fluff that indicates that.
Well... yeah... fluff that was written after they found out how oversized the model actually was... Same goes for whatshisface on demigryph from Forgeworld...

The model is too big. If I am not mistaken it was made as a three-up first and I suppose the sculptor just misjudged its size. It really is too big, even if they are "different breeds". It's a nice model in its own right, and I had fun with it, even though it took me an age and a half to sculpt on the feathers where you would otherwise be forced to place a breastplate (another fail in my opinion, what if I wanted to use it for Storm of Magic?), but in the end it is a rather uncomplicated and therefore easy to paint model.

corps
07-02-2013, 12:06
how can karl frantz on the back of his flying chicken. it s so big that i ve trouble seeing him having the requires range for.

TheDungen
07-02-2013, 16:07
i could be wrong but didnt brian nelson sculpt both the griffons?

Urgat
07-02-2013, 16:09
The model is too big. If I am not mistaken it was made as a three-up first and I suppose the sculptor just misjudged its size.

It's clearly made on computer, so I doubt there was a 3-up at all.

Miredorf
07-02-2013, 18:08
I was really sad when they released the new griffon model. I was that time converting a griffon from Island of blood for my empire general but suddenly you must ride this giant beast instead of a small normal griffon. I would have liked it more if you still had the option to ride a normal griffon instead of a giant imperial one.

Who says you cant still ride a normal sized griffon? I vastly prefer the classic KF metal model over the new one, and im for sure gonna be using it until the end of my days.

Nubl0
07-02-2013, 18:35
By all means use the old model, I personally find it hideous and slightly goofy.

Terrenord
07-02-2013, 18:42
The model is so big as to make it impossible to transport to your local gaming store. It's also a conspiracy to sell more paint and glue ;)

loveless
07-02-2013, 19:43
The premier infantry unit of the Imperial Army utilizes giant, over-sized blades. Ghal Maraz and the Reikland Runefang are not nearly as impressive in size, so most Elector Counts (and Karl Franz) find other means to compensate for their shortcomings.