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View Full Version : New 8th units: Which feel 'authentic', and which feel 'bolted on'?



The bearded one
03-02-2013, 17:07
I was pondering this over and I think this thought races through my mind every time I see brand new units or hear of new concepts for units with new 8th edition books. In light of what units an army used to comprise before its 8th edition incarnation, I often think to myself with new units and the new models for them wether they will ever feel like they are an 'authentic' part of the army, that feels like it belonged there throughout the editions, or wether the feeling will persist that they are 'bolted on' to the traditional army. Particularly I wonder about this question when I read new stories in armybooks where the new units are given a prominent role to make them seem more important, like the 3 terrorgheists flying overhead in the VC book's battle against dwarfs and elves where they kidnapped the princess, or the story of Karl Franz going to Nordland's coast and divining the location of the marauder, where hurricaniums were sneakishly written in. Particularly now that new units almost always are monsters or chariot-type units, I keep wondering wether they will ever feel like they belong in the traditional shape of the army.

I think what new units often need to feel like a proper portion of the army, is to look good and fitting the aesthetic of the army, and also have some kind of fluff precedence (which often means people will have these units tucked somewhere in their wishlists).

For example, the O&G arachnerock spider? Makes good sense. It's a big spider from the spider rider tribes. Done, job's a good 'un. This one has already sunk in for me.

Tomb kings; The sphinxes? They've quite sunk in for me by now, particularly because I find them cool (the necrosphinx in particular) and there is a fluff precedence for tomb king constructs, now with an egyptian reference put in (even if maybe a bit more heavyhanded). The snakes and snake surfers though? The knights in particular are a great, strong unit, but they still look a bit out of place, aesthetically and fluffwise.

Ogres: considering mournfangs are now so incredibly prolific in most meta's they already fit. I think they did a good design job on ogres, because the stonehorn, thundertusk and ironblaster also fit decently well in for me with their 'prehistoric' feeling (with all the stuff made out of bones and teeth and hides, and bound crudely together, giving the army a single gestalt shape.

VC: Im.. not entirely sure here yet. Superghouls have sunk in for me, the vargheists mildly so due to the existence of the varghulf. The terrorgheist is a great model yet because of that story about the princess I always feel they're forced down my throat ^^ Hexwraiths? Oh, that's gonna take a while to sink in for sure, because ..'daemons of morr' ? And finally the mortis engine and coven throne. The models are spectacular, but once again they do not feel like they're a part of the army as it traditionally used to look. They still feel a bit out of place in that.

Empire: Demi's fit decently well, especially as they are pretty nice mini's (I built and painted a couple) with the forgeworld character as precedence for demigryphs. The wagons though, still feel rather bolted on with some newly written fluff to attempt to tie them in, about the orcs of sorcery.

WoC: Juggercav, that's just ace and pretty fitting. Slaaneshi steed marauders feel more like someone had a fun kitbashing idea to make a slaanesh army. The 2 big monsters are individually pretty decent, but of course because they are a multikit with a single very noticable pose, then when put next to eachother they just reinforce this feeling of being a new addition. Oddly enough the warshrine concept felt like it really fit, like it actually belonged in the army. And then this new over the top model came out and it spontaneously felt out of place ;)


Whadayou guys think? Which units really already feel to you like they truly 'belong' as an 'authentic' part of the army, and which still feel bolted on as a new addition which has trouble for you to sink in as part of the army.

DeathGlam
03-02-2013, 17:18
Agreed on most things but i think the Empire wagons fit fine as they have a history of crazy wagons even if one got removed in previous editions.

Worst for me is the Khorne & Slaanesh riders, they just look silly to me but im happy enough for more Slaanesh conversion bits as a Slaanesh fanboy.

Scammel
03-02-2013, 17:18
Empire: Demi's fit decently well, especially as they are pretty nice mini's (I built and painted a couple) with the forgeworld character as precedence for demigryphs. The wagons though, still feel rather bolted on with some newly written fluff to attempt to tie them in, about the orcs of sorcery.


I find it's the opposite for me. There's been loads of artwork of wacky pseudo-magical Empire contraptions floating around for quite a while now with little to no tabletop respresentation. On the other hand, Demigryphs take a bit more getting used to on my part as I've always viewed Empire as the Imperial Guardsmen of 40k; lacking enough power on an indivdual level to deal with the monsters and madmen of the world, but making up for it with armour, technology and tactics. Having a monstrous unit fully capable of handling itself in combat without particularly needing support strikes me as a bit out of place.


The snakes and snake surfers though? The knights in particular are a great, strong unit, but they still look a bit out of place, aesthetically and fluffwise.


The Stalkers I quite like, their slightly bizarre appearance is easily reconciled by the fact that they're constructs (and anthropomorphising animals is not exactly unheard of in ancient cultures) and their abilities perfectly fit the army - the stare ability is suitably creepy. I agree with you on the surfers though, I've always felt the skeletons should be more or less automatons or at the very least ponderous and the riders look far too dynamic for my tastes.

MR. GRUMPY
03-02-2013, 17:27
The buff wagons are completly out of place for me in a Empire army. Its to.. magical and mystic to fit with the theme of empire I have in my mind.

Xerkics
03-02-2013, 21:53
Ironblaster makes no sense whatsoever. Why would simple minded ogres have more accurate cannons than empire and dwarfs combined is beyond me. Nm the move and fire and being nigh unkillable. Demi griffons are an abomination i could see that as alternative mount or maybe rare unit but special and with the point cost and the stats they gave them is outright silly. Giving empire a in your face smash beatstick unit is against the army combined warfare philisophy especially in special.

-Loki-
03-02-2013, 22:21
For Vampires, the Hexwraiths and Mortis Engine feel bolted on to me.

The Mortis Engine... I just can't see the way it relates to the army. I know it's an 'artefact' that releases dark magic, but it just feels like a way to make the Coven Throne into a dual kit to sell a few more. The Coven Throne I like, because they gave it some good background (Lahmians riding to war in luxury instead of on top of smelly, rotting beasts).

The Hexwraiths I can really see the intent. They wanted that stereotypical schlock horror super fast menacing ghost on a horse with a Warhammer flavour. For me, it's mostly the models that make it feel bolted on - they went a little too far on the b-grade horror aesthetic and went right past the standard for the rest of the range. When it's in the utterly fantastic Black Knights kit, it feels more amateurish. When the non-mounted version looks menacing without looking cartoony, it feels doubly amatuerish.

Nubl0
03-02-2013, 23:17
Ironblaster makes no sense whatsoever.

Have you actually read the fluff? They didn't make them. They are scavenged from the sky titans, who presumably were very good at making cannons... not that it helped them much.

Lord Inquisitor
03-02-2013, 23:33
For example, the O&G arachnerock spider? Makes good sense. It's a big spider from the spider rider tribes. Done, job's a good 'un. This one has already sunk in for me.
Yep, seems pretty spot on.


Tomb kings; The sphinxes? They've quite sunk in for me by now, particularly because I find them cool (the necrosphinx in particular) and there is a fluff precedence for tomb king constructs, now with an egyptian reference put in (even if maybe a bit more heavyhanded). The snakes and snake surfers though? The knights in particular are a great, strong unit, but they still look a bit out of place, aesthetically and fluffwise.
I think the necrosphinx is spot on but I've never been a real fan of the warsphinx. Snake surfers, yeah, silly idea.


Ogres: considering mournfangs are now so incredibly prolific in most meta's they already fit. I think they did a good design job on ogres, because the stonehorn, thundertusk and ironblaster also fit decently well in for me with their 'prehistoric' feeling (with all the stuff made out of bones and teeth and hides, and bound crudely together, giving the army a single gestalt shape.
Ogres really had a "cav" gap in their list and a "mammoth" gap so both were rather expected and anticipated even though the exact form was perhaps not (most people were expecting rhinox riders as a given!).


VC: Im.. not entirely sure here yet. Superghouls have sunk in for me, the vargheists mildly so due to the existence of the varghulf. The terrorgheist is a great model yet because of that story about the princess I always feel they're forced down my throat ^^ Hexwraiths? Oh, that's gonna take a while to sink in for sure, because ..'daemons of morr' ? And finally the mortis engine and coven throne. The models are spectacular, but once again they do not feel like they're a part of the army as it traditionally used to look. They still feel a bit out of place in that.
I still can't take the giant ghouls seriously. The vargheists also. Feel a lot like "we need some MI". The mortis/coven throne and the terrorgheist are all ace.


Empire: Demi's fit decently well, especially as they are pretty nice mini's (I built and painted a couple) with the forgeworld character as precedence for demigryphs. The wagons though, still feel rather bolted on with some newly written fluff to attempt to tie them in, about the orcs of sorcery.
I think I agree. Still, the Empire always had silly things like the War Wagon and the War Altar so maybe not that out of character?


WoC: Juggercav, that's just ace and pretty fitting. Slaaneshi steed marauders feel more like someone had a fun kitbashing idea to make a slaanesh army. The 2 big monsters are individually pretty decent, but of course because they are a multikit with a single very noticable pose, then when put next to eachother they just reinforce this feeling of being a new addition. Oddly enough the warshrine concept felt like it really fit, like it actually belonged in the army. And then this new over the top model came out and it spontaneously felt out of place ;)
Yeah, the slaaneshi marauders really felt like a lazy kitbash (no idea if they actually sculpted them from scratch or used marauders and seekers as the basis but it looks lazy anyway!). Monsters seem ... okay but neither screams "WOC" rather than a daemon or a beast of chaos. The warshrine on the other hand has really grown on me, once I let go of the idea of it being a chariot... It's got the heavily armoured side with the gribbly side.

Xerkics
04-02-2013, 00:02
Have you actually read the fluff? They didn't make them. They are scavenged from the sky titans, who presumably were very good at making cannons... not that it helped them much.

Thats the kind of deus ex machina where something makes no sense in the list otherwise, they could have explained everything like that why do they have spaceships? Oh they got them from the sky titans, nm the fact they wouldnt know how to replace them repair maintain them etc. Cannons need maintenance they blow up you need to make special powder forge cannonball etc. Like a really strong but innacurate cannon ( like a bigger leadbelcher) would have made more sense the fact that its more accurate than any other races cannons is rediculos nm all the other ott stuff it can do.

Cap'n Facebeard
04-02-2013, 00:03
Nice thread, I feel the same way bout a lot of things.

For WoC, the Warshrine feels right to me due to the existence of War Altars in the Realm of Chaos books, which were essentially the same thing. The new monsters, on the other hand, really feel like a stretch to accept. Why not a big plastic Shaggoth instead? Why not an uber-warshrine or daemon engine, etc? Why aren't these huge Beasts, who are of Chaos, in some other army book?

Doesn't help that the models look like a Privateer Press sculptor had a seizure mid-sculpt...

Lord Inquisitor
04-02-2013, 00:14
Thats the kind of deus ex machina where something makes no sense in the list otherwise, they could have explained everything like that why do they have spaceships? Oh they got them from the sky titans, nm the fact they wouldnt know how to replace them repair maintain them etc. Cannons need maintenance they blow up you need to make special powder forge cannonball etc. Like a really strong but innacurate cannon ( like a bigger leadbelcher) would have made more sense the fact that its more accurate than any other races cannons is rediculos nm all the other ott stuff it can do.

Ogres had blackpower weapons from their inception as a true army. Leadbelchers seem to do fine using what are clearly scavenged Empire cannons and mortars. They also have wide access to blackpowder "pistols".

Seems to me "sodoff giant cannon" fits the Ogre themes perfectly. Big boom, big misfire when it goes wrong. Not ogre tech - they're not smart enough to design such a thing just as leadbelcher cannons or maneater pistols aren't ogre-made - but plenty smart (or stupid) enough to strap it to a rhinox and shove gunpower and cannonballs down it!

The sky-titans bit is therefore an explanation of how Ogres got Ogre-sized cannons without making them for themselves. A bit limp but it certainly fits the ogre themes.

Xerkics
04-02-2013, 00:21
Ogres had blackpower weapons from their inception as a true army. Leadbelchers seem to do fine using what are clearly scavenged Empire cannons and mortars. They also have wide access to blackpowder "pistols".

Seems to me "sodoff giant cannon" fits the Ogre themes perfectly. Big boom, big misfire when it goes wrong. Not ogre tech - they're not smart enough to design such a thing just as leadbelcher cannons or maneater pistols aren't ogre-made - but plenty smart (or stupid) enough to strap it to a rhinox and shove gunpower and cannonballs down it!

The sky-titans bit is therefore an explanation of how Ogres got Ogre-sized cannons without making them for themselves. A bit limp but it certainly fits the ogre themes.

Well i think the whole sky titan explanation seems pretty weak. Like every time they invent new fluff / event when they need to explain new unit even if it makes little sense.

StormCrow
04-02-2013, 01:34
Good thread idea!

When considering these new models I think there are a few aspects to consider regarding whether a new unit 'fits' an army book:

-Pre-established background; has the unit ever been mentioned previously or is it an extension of ideas discussed in WHFB or any of it's supplementary games

-Artwork; this is particularly important for monsters and chariots/warmachines in 8th edition. Does the new unit resemble or invoke a design from previously published art that has never been considered in a ruleset

-Models; Do they fit aesthetically with the army, are they an extension of the model range that already exists, or do they develop new ideas using what has already been created.


Using this as a guide I have developed pretty strong opinions of most 8th edition new releases. Models such as the Arachnarok, Hurricanum, Mutalith, Sphinx and Vargheists I consider successful model releases because they fit some (or all) of my criteria. The hurricanum in particular I was delighted to see based on the Gallagher art from the 7th edition rule book. The same goes for the Sphinx which has been mentioned in the 6th edition tomb king book as well as black library novels previously.

I would mention models like the Crypt Horrors, warshrine and Hellstriders as unsuccessful because they are jarring within their established contextual history. Marauders riding demons looks like a kit bash between two separate armies and has no written precedence (that I know of), Crypt Horrors are essentially giant ghouls that offer nothing to the vampire counts range that hasn't been told through the ghouls already, and the Warshrine doesn't match up with it's own description from the 7th edition book and introduced this new wrought metal design that seems to have carried across to other new models which I find jarring compared to older models

kramplarv
04-02-2013, 01:40
Every single day since the armies of chaos went seperate ways there have been heaps and heaps of misplaced and bad units. :(

slaughtebrute, gorebeasts, mutahorrormutators, cygor, 99% of all special characters etc. Why oh why would I want to use mr. Boring chaos lord Bob with no character instead of van horstmann? or azazel? or Count mordek?
I don't understand why GW keeps inventing special characters from scratch when they have HUNDREDS of named characters already with basis in fluff which could be fun. I'd love to se an army based on Leonardo and his inventions. That would be nice. Ax extremely bad case is Balthasar Gelt intstead of Thyros Gorman. Thyrus have been the supreme patriarch since 1991. Why would he suddenly stop being that? And be replaced with a "wannabe". Now, today, Balthasar is an integrated character, but when it all happened in 2000 it was ********. Fatweaver is not even half as cool as Amon Chakai. Why remove Amon?

/rant.

Other than this, I feel like there are to many monstrous infantry in the game today. And that results in MI being less spectacular. When I started playing players would stand in awe when someone brought 2 regiments of monsters like troll/minotaurs at the same time.

Voss
04-02-2013, 01:52
Actually, of all the things that don't fit in the new WoC, it is the Hellstriders and Skullcrushers. Daemons don't last long out of the real Chaos Wastes, not even on the fringes. If it were that easy, there would be no reason to have split the armies up, and no reason why mortal worshippers would be much involved in the Incursions at all- the daemons could just sweep down and murder everything.

Other than that, most of the new stuff fits. Except, of course, Snake Surfers. Because they're skeletons keeping balanced on the top of giant snakes.

Xerkics
04-02-2013, 02:02
Yes hellstriders are kinda iffy, we had dudes riding juggernauts for a while in the fluff though i think and they arent pure daemons i think arent they made by chaos dwarfs by binding daemons of rage into a brass construct?

P.S: i just checked my liber chaotica and dudes riding juggernauts are mentioned there as well so its well established. There just have been some confusion with chaos dwarfs involvement with them recently i think as Liber Chaotica just lists them as amalgamation of daemon and machine . I think i read some of the more recent fluff about them being made.

m1acca1551
04-02-2013, 03:45
I love the idea of the big spider for o&g was perfectly fluffy and a real bonus because the gf hates spiders!!

I love the tk constructs they look awesome and they fit the fluff, snake riders etc WTF?? i'd have easily accepted sphinx riders stone lions with TG on them :)

VC, mixed bag here i love my VC with a passion yet crypt horrors just seem silly, some one really wanted a frankenstein theme, vargheists are awesome, coven throne, mortis engine and hexwraiths i think are fine.

OK, mournfang are cool with me

Empire, ok this is where i just dont get it... the two wizard mobiles are just stupid, cash grabs and thats it, i'd have been much happier if GW had released an armoury set for my state troopers allowing me to add breast plates etc at least thats a cool cash grab.

WoC... big killy smash riders fit the fluff, big mosters and slanessh marauders thingo's are again WTF?? just really stupid and lazy from both a game design and model design. Simple cash grabs, if you really want to make money GW you should have made the shaggoth a multi part plastic kit and made the rules better, they would have sold by the tonne!!!

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 05:58
o&g: the spider fits right in

ok:
Its easier to ad to the ok concept since its no that old, the unit seem to fit. the giant cannon fits but the explanation where they got it from sucks, why not just say they stole it from a pre existing faction?

tk:
i like the necrospinx, the warpshinxs feels tacky. The snake riders are meant to bridge the gap between necrons and tomb kings and are one of my main reasons not to make a tk army. the idea of the hierotan is great to.

vc:
The coven throne and morting engine are cool models, they dont feel perfect yet but they'll get there, as for the monster ghouls and werebats, please no. they're a boring concept for an army which is supposed to drag you down with numbers.
the zombiedragaon/whatever its called works though.

empire:
I dont like the shrines, i alawya sliek the fact that wizards in the empire were as much hated and feared as respected, allowed to exist because they contributed something to the survival of the empire.
Also people say the empire had wacky stuff, but that was the religion, the empire is supposed to be rationalism compared to the brettonian romatisism.
the demigryphs work, a lot better than i expected them too. i just hope they're kept as a rare thing in fluff.

warriors of chaos: Juggerknights make sense, people thing they're lazy as for the models i can agree ( also dont like the ringed noses and hooves of the juggers) but as a concept i like them, they're an alteration of an already existing concept.
The hellriders dont work all that well why would the chaos gods bless marauders with demonic steeds but let their chosen knights ride horses. the models also lack the sense of speed, but i liek the helmeted heads.
The warhshrine still stinks, but i've alreayd argued why i think so.
the fosaken i dont care that much about they seem like just another mutation sprue.
the big monsters: nice models but who is that not sortable under chaos spawn or giant chaos spawn?

in conclusion gw need to be carefull to preserve the aestetics of their armies. if they lose that they will lose the charm of their world. on the other hand they've always harvested ideas and concepts from elsewhere and that is what made warhammer as great as it is.

Urgat
04-02-2013, 06:40
For example, the O&G arachnerock spider? Makes good sense. It's a big spider from the spider rider tribes. Done, job's a good 'un. This one has already sunk in for me.

Anyone who would disagree would be an idiot anyway, because they've been in the fluff ever since the 4th ed armybook, they just didn't have a name and were described as not very prone to leaving their lairs... but so were HE dragons.

On the whole, I'm fine with the new units. Couple exceptions, of course. The mounted marauders, what's the fluff explanation for Slaanesh to give demonic mounts to mere marauders? But then he won't give mounts to chaos warriors? Not to mention the minis for them are so static for one of the fastest ground units it's pathetic. The jugernaut riders, well, I understand what Voss means, but, well, demonic miounts have been around for characters for as long as I remember, so worrying about them for regular troops based on demonic stability is a bit late. Let's say they can feed on the rtiders emotions or something to explain that.At least I can understand Khorne giving mounts to chaos warriors as they're already favoured, but marauders? Pfff.
I also dislike the luminark as both a concept and visually. Well the look is a matter of taste, but making a dedicated warmachine to a dedicated mage, that's pushing it a bit too far. Same for the huricanum, though this one at least looks suitably baroque and I do like its design.
Most of the rest fits naturally. The new chaos stuff? The fluff has stated forever that chaos armies were always followed by countless mutated monstuosities, so anything would fit, really.


o&g: the spider fits right in

ok:
Its easier to ad to the ok concept since its no that old, the unit seem to fit. the giant cannon fits but the explanation where they got it from sucks, why not just say they stole it from a pre existing faction?

Opposite for me, the fluff works, but I don't like the thing itself nonetheless. I don't get why you don't like it coming from the titans, that's pre-existing fluff, and the "existing faction"'s players they'd steal it from wouldn't understand why they themselves don't have access to it. It's also easier to pick up weapons lying on your territory rather than go and steal it from someone else who may be very far away and not even have said weapon in the first place. As for me not liking it, I don't find the OK particularly needed that, it's just a bit weird (and there's no way a rhinox can pull that, the mini is stupid).

neXus6
04-02-2013, 07:02
I'm not at all surprised to see much of the trend of "big plastic kits" being mentioned here.

I always felt there was enough in the way of monsters and war machines in the game before this trend really kicked in. All those Chaos monsters, shrines and "monstrous cavalry" over recent years just seem to be stretching.

Especially when these kits have been produced while many armies still have important basic units that could do with updated kits.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
04-02-2013, 07:06
The Chracian Lion Chariot, while a cool model, really felt bolted on. The White Lions wear dead lions known for their pride and independence... Chrace is a mountainous, forested realm. Chariots are simply a no-go. If they wanted to do a dual-kit chariot kit, they could have done some kind of Avelornian court thingy instead.

Literally everything else has grown on me. Even the snake riders.

DragonArmy
04-02-2013, 07:13
I'm not at all surprised to see much of the trend of "big plastic kits" being mentioned here.

I always felt there was enough in the way of monsters and war machines in the game before this trend really kicked in. All those Chaos monsters, shrines and "monstrous cavalry" over recent years just seem to be stretching.

Especially when these kits have been produced while many armies still have important basic units that could do with updated kits.

My Problems are with the big plastic gets that don't provide diversity in their creation, yet look as if they should be unique. Chariots seem to be the biggest offenders.

The new monstrous Calvary barely makes it in for me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Urgat
04-02-2013, 08:06
The Chracian Lion Chariot, while a cool model, really felt bolted on. The White Lions wear dead lions known for their pride and independence... Chrace is a mountainous, forested realm. Chariots are simply a no-go. If they wanted to do a dual-kit chariot kit, they could have done some kind of Avelornian court thingy instead.

Ah yeah, forgot that one.

Scammel
04-02-2013, 08:32
Yeah, that was an awfully literal interpretation of the White Lions.

eldargal
04-02-2013, 08:44
I don't feel this way about anything bar the Lion chariot (which is just silly). The Empire has always had wagons of some sort or another (war altar and war wagon), wizard wagons make perfect sense in my opinion. I mean it is a wagon with some wizards on. We know they have wizards and we know they have wagons, I just do not see the problem. I'm always happy to see new units added as the alternative is stagnation (which I have with eldar at the moment, the list has barely changed in the 18 years I've been playing).

Vipoid
04-02-2013, 09:10
For Vampire Counts, I like the Terrorghiest concept, not so sure about Crypt Ghouls.

Thing is, I like the idea of ghoul-related models, and being able to effectively build a Ghoul-army. However, both the models and fluff just seem very bland.

Leogun_91
04-02-2013, 09:15
For me then:
Orcs and Goblins: I quickly and happily accepted both the Arachnarok and Nasty Skulkers, with a bit more time needed to accept the Ararchnarok, fitting fluff however made me accept it. The big stabba I still feel has been bolted on and it feels quite silly. The Mangler squigs fit well with the Nightgoblins who have gotten a bit more spotlight on their crazy part and I think it fits, although I don't like the model for it.

Tombkings:
Necrotects I like but they are quite silly, giving a character hatred because his enemy doesn't appreciate his art isn't a very serious concept. Necropolis Knights I have accepted fluffwise but their styles fit poorly with the rest of the army (except possibly the warsphinx). Great bows for Ushabti I accepted without a second thought.Sepulchral Stalkers are cool but feel a bit less Tomb Kings than needed, I haven't fully accepted them even though I have a unit. The Warshinx works fluffwise but I feel it's style to be off a bit for the army. The Necrosphinx I have fully accepted, it's fluff reinforce their religious side and it's look is fantastic, it doesn't matter that it stands out from the rest because this is a creature the rest wouldn't want to be near, a being of evil. The Bonegiant split into two is actually far prefered by me, I found the old bone giant to fit poorly.

Ogre Kingdoms: I find Firebellys to be really cool concepts and models but they don't feel like ogre kingdoms to me. Mournfang cavalry I have accepted but it took a while. The Ironblaster I first accepted but then went on to dislike once I had read the fluff, they could easily have made the cannon a piece of Imperial technology bought (or taken as taxes) instead of saying that the sky titans had gunpowder weapons that remain functional after millenia. Stonehorns I accept without question and the Thundertusk I would have accepted if I could see any possible way for it to eat. The change from slave giants to just giants I mourned.

Empire: The twoheaded griffin addition I disliked but could accept fluffwise. The witchhunter was less an acceptance and more a shout of "finally". The demigryph knights I accept but feel are a bit out of place. The Hurricanum and Luminark I accept as magical and mechanical contraptions of all kinds have been part of the empire artwork for quite some time.

Vampire Counts: Strigoi Ghoul Kings wasn't much of a new thing as a return of a bloodline but nevertheless I can mention that I felt they still fit, the same I say for Master Necromancers, Wraith characters and lone Banshees. Crypt horrors and Vargheists I don't think fit, fluff or theme. Hexwraiths I also find ill fitting but better than the aforementioned. The terrorgheist I don't feel fit too well, it just came too much out of nowhere. Mortis Engines I think fit OK. The Coven throne I accepted as a Lahmian thing (which the fluff presents it as).

Warriors of Chaos: I liked all the additions except Hellstriders of Slaanesh, I find marauders unworthy of such mounts, it is worth noting that I still retain the "old hordes of chaos" supported thought that marauders are unworthy of marks as well.

Yamabushi
04-02-2013, 09:31
The 'Tects are ok for Tomb Kings. It's not because other people do not appreciate their art, its the Nehekharan equivalent of coming home one day from work and discovered that your neighbors had smashed half of your beautifully painted minis which you have spent months painting and basing, soaked the other half of them in Dettol and sold off your Games Day Archaon on foot model at a flea market.

Also, the stereotypical Egyptian slave master type has to have an appearance somehow.

Urgat
04-02-2013, 09:48
For me then:
Orcs and Goblins: I quickly and happily accepted both the Arachnarok and Nasty Skulkers, with a bit more time needed to accept the Ararchnarok, fitting fluff however made me accept it. The big stabba I still feel has been bolted on and it feels quite silly.

Ah yeah, I also forgot the big stabba and the nasty skulkers. The big stabba I don't mind, it's juts a big spear after all, so why not? The nasty skulkers, though... sure goblins are sneaky and back-stabbing, but they're not ninjas or assassins, it's stupid, and I can't stand their fluff. So mine are the bloodbowl starplayers. I have a easier time accepting a crazy goblin hitting a chaos warrior in the gonnads with a chainsaw than going all stealthy and stuff.

Ulthwe's Tears
04-02-2013, 10:27
For example, the O&G arachnerock spider? Makes good sense. It's a big spider from the spider rider tribes. Done, job's a good 'un. This one has already sunk in for me.

No question, the Orcs and Goblins additions were elegant and fitting.


Tomb kings; The sphinxes? They've quite sunk in for me by now, particularly because I find them cool (the necrosphinx in particular) and there is a fluff precedence for tomb king constructs, now with an egyptian reference put in (even if maybe a bit more heavyhanded). The snakes and snake surfers though? The knights in particular are a great, strong unit, but they still look a bit out of place, aesthetically and fluffwise.

I find the Necrosphinx less fitting than the War Sphinx because of the peculiar looking wings. I do like how they function within the army though. The Necropolis Knights are silly, though I quite like the Sepulchral Stalkers...


Ogres: considering mournfangs are now so incredibly prolific in most meta's they already fit. I think they did a good design job on ogres, because the stonehorn, thundertusk and ironblaster also fit decently well in for me with their 'prehistoric' feeling (with all the stuff made out of bones and teeth and hides, and bound crudely together, giving the army a single gestalt shape.

The Mournfang and the mammoths fit perfectly, for me. The Ironblaster is just weird though - taking it from the sky-titans who, as far as I can tell have never appeared before, just seems like a reach. Especially when Ogres have encountered the Empire and Dwarves...


VC: Im.. not entirely sure here yet. Superghouls have sunk in for me, the vargheists mildly so due to the existence of the varghulf. The terrorgheist is a great model yet because of that story about the princess I always feel they're forced down my throat ^^ Hexwraiths? Oh, that's gonna take a while to sink in for sure, because ..'daemons of morr' ? And finally the mortis engine and coven throne. The models are spectacular, but once again they do not feel like they're a part of the army as it traditionally used to look. They still feel a bit out of place in that.

The Ghouls/Gheists all seem fine to me. It only seems natural to have crazed aberrations from the norm. The Hexwraiths are perhaps a little weird, but I do like more ghosts in the army. I have no problem with either of the thrones, especially the Coven Throne, which seems a wonderfully excessive and elaborate platform.


Empire: Demi's fit decently well, especially as they are pretty nice mini's (I built and painted a couple) with the forgeworld character as precedence for demigryphs. The wagons though, still feel rather bolted on with some newly written fluff to attempt to tie them in, about the orcs of sorcery.

The fluff for the Demigryphs is a let down - I would have loved it if they went with a genetic experiment style approach for how they were concocted. What they went with was very lazy. The Wagons are great and fit the bizarre science side of the empire to a tee. Beautiful models and great ideas.


WoC: Juggercav, that's just ace and pretty fitting. Slaaneshi steed marauders feel more like someone had a fun kitbashing idea to make a slaanesh army. The 2 big monsters are individually pretty decent, but of course because they are a multikit with a single very noticable pose, then when put next to eachother they just reinforce this feeling of being a new addition. Oddly enough the warshrine concept felt like it really fit, like it actually belonged in the army. And then this new over the top model came out and it spontaneously felt out of place ;)


Skullcrushers unquestionably fit. Juggernauts have been a mount for Khorne for a long, long time. It seems perfectly natural. Hellstriders seem somewhat off - the models are better than in the pictures but I would have preferred more slender, elegant riders. The Mutalith and the Slaughter Brute seem great to me, although I feel they are perhaps a bit too Tzeentch/Khorne oriented...

Ullis
04-02-2013, 11:06
I don't feel this way about anything bar the Lion chariot (which is just silly). The Empire has always had wagons of some sort or another (war altar and war wagon), wizard wagons make perfect sense in my opinion. I mean it is a wagon with some wizards on. We know they have wizards and we know they have wagons, I just do not see the problem. I'm always happy to see new units added as the alternative is stagnation (which I have with eldar at the moment, the list has barely changed in the 18 years I've been playing).

I am with you on this one mate. Some of the kits are questionable, but I would rather see new kits/units I don't like than seeing the game stagnate. Also, GW are a company and need to make money, so I have no major issue with fluff being written to allow new units to be developed and sold (although the pricing is to be questioned).

DeathGlam
04-02-2013, 11:10
The Chracian Lion Chariot, while a cool model, really felt bolted on. The White Lions wear dead lions known for their pride and independence... Chrace is a mountainous, forested realm. Chariots are simply a no-go. If they wanted to do a dual-kit chariot kit, they could have done some kind of Avelornian court thingy instead.

Literally everything else has grown on me. Even the snake riders.

Agreed, im a big fan of HE but i have never really liked that concept or the WL in general, as they always seemed to me like HE who are not HE, take away slightly the theme of a HE army for me.

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 13:40
i've always felt that the diffrences between the kingdoms needs to come out more rather than less, Ulthuan is a continent after all not a country. And chrace is (at least the last army book) scottish inspired (i'd have gone with norweigan instead, giving ulthuan a more varied geography than the brittish isles since it much bigger) and the celts used a lot of chariots even if they lived in hilly terrain (the celts who used chariots isnt the same as the scots though) and forests, they didn't use them while fighting I their own territory but when attacking out into the plains beyond their borders.

With the celtic themes beign moved to the wood elfs I fear that ulthuan may be even more homogenized in the next army book.

and i like the lion chariot sure it dont make perfect sense but hey its better than lion riders (a big feline could pull a cart but their bone structure isnt rigid enough to support a riders)

snyggejygge
04-02-2013, 14:12
Things that feel out of place for me in the 8:th edition books:
Tomb King Snake surfers, not much needs to be said, they look out of place, the whole idea is stupid...
Ogres Ironblasters, would like to see that Rhinox actually carry such a big thing around, not to mention the recoil when it fires would probably break its legs, furthermore fluff is lame.
VC Mortis engine feels like they just added it to get more sales for the kit. I don't like the idea of superghouls either, Monstrous infantry for VC is ok, but make it something cooler, Goles or werewolves would've been much cooler.
Empire, dislike all the new stuff, wagons are silly, as is demigryph knights, bring back the old war wagon instead & let them have imperial Ogres & Halflings back as well.
Chaos: I like the idea of a warshrine, but the execution of it was really bad. I don't like the daemon riding marauders either, goes against fluff that marauders would be granted such a gift from the gods, when knights & warriors doesn't get it...
I must mention daemons as well, cause while they don't have a new book yet, I do think it's retarded that they got the Soul Grinder, I have only played against it once, but it felt so out of place...

Exorcist
04-02-2013, 14:45
I actually like Most of the new stuff. The Empire Release especially. I dont Unverstand why so many People say, that they rather had just another generic Race inside an Army. ( ogres being the Most popular )
I think its allways a Good Thing when they release New Models and New Ideas, it gives more options to the Players and Not Every Army is comprised of the Same Units.

And i Seem to be the only One that actually likes the Necroknights. I like the fluff and the Models.

theshoveller
04-02-2013, 14:55
Empire: Demi's fit decently well, especially as they are pretty nice mini's (I built and painted a couple) with the forgeworld character as precedence for demigryphs. The wagons though, still feel rather bolted on with some newly written fluff to attempt to tie them in, about the orcs of sorcery.
Funnily enough, I had the opposite reaction. The Demigryphs seemed to come out of nowhere (I was relieved that they were such good models) but one look at the Luminark and my brain had parsed the concept as, "Acolytes of the Light College build War Wagon".

Lord Inquisitor
04-02-2013, 14:59
I'm not at all surprised to see much of the trend of "big plastic kits" being mentioned here.

I always felt there was enough in the way of monsters and war machines in the game before this trend really kicked in. All those Chaos monsters, shrines and "monstrous cavalry" over recent years just seem to be stretching.

Especially when these kits have been produced while many armies still have important basic units that could do with updated kits.

Dunno, you could argue that Warhammer Fantasy Battles have always been about these sorts of units. GW just has the technology to do them justice now. Much of even the early artwork had pretty impressive monsters and beasts, much larger than the little metal monsters on the tabletop looked.

DeathGlam
04-02-2013, 15:53
i've always felt that the diffrences between the kingdoms needs to come out more rather than less, Ulthuan is a continent after all not a country. And chrace is (at least the last army book) scottish inspired (i'd have gone with norweigan instead, giving ulthuan a more varied geography than the brittish isles since it much bigger) and the celts used a lot of chariots even if they lived in hilly terrain (the celts who used chariots isnt the same as the scots though) and forests, they didn't use them while fighting I their own territory but when attacking out into the plains beyond their borders.

With the celtic themes beign moved to the wood elfs I fear that ulthuan may be even more homogenized in the next army book.

and i like the lion chariot sure it dont make perfect sense but hey its better than lion riders (a big feline could pull a cart but their bone structure isnt rigid enough to support a riders)

I would personally of prefered Chrace to have had more of an elite regimented archery unit rather then strong elves with big axes but in the end i don't hate them just would not choose to have them in my army.

Vipoid
04-02-2013, 16:40
I don't like the idea of superghouls either, Monstrous infantry for VC is ok, but make it something cooler, Goles or werewolves would've been much cooler.


Yeah, I know what you mean. Werewolves could have been interesting.

Thing is, I don't mid the idea of Crypt Horrors, but I don't see why they basically just look like enlarged Ghouls. Why couldn't they look more like Frankenstein monsters? Maybe a bit like the Dark Eldar Grotesque (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440232a&prodId=prod1190036a). Or, have them look like ghouls, but much more twisted and disfigured.

anthioram
04-02-2013, 17:19
Yeah, I know what you mean. Werewolves could have been interesting.

Thing is, I don't mid the idea of Crypt Horrors, but I don't see why they basically just look like enlarged Ghouls. Why couldn't they look more like Frankenstein monsters? Maybe a bit like the Dark Eldar Grotesque (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440232a&prodId=prod1190036a). Or, have them look like ghouls, but much more twisted and disfigured.

I think the reason crypt horrors suck so much is because they had to be part of a doublekit, So they end up looking really bland.
Also the fluff sucks, there is no way a vampire (strigoi or other) will share willingly his precious blood.

Luckily enough, their rules and stats are really fitting for corps golems (maybe they could do with M5 and I1-2). So you don't have to use the ugly official models; just need some green stuff, zombie parts, and maybe ogre parts, ;)

Dark Aly
04-02-2013, 17:27
In time all new toys become acceptable to me. I was a little puzzled by the design of the warshrine and necro knights but hey it's warhammer and I'm happy. Some models I'm not keen on but that's not an issue as I can just convert or ignore until ones I like come along.

Vipoid
04-02-2013, 17:35
I think the reason crypt horrors suck so much is because they had to be part of a doublekit, So they end up looking really bland.
Also the fluff sucks, there is no way a vampire (strigoi or other) will share willingly his precious blood.

Indeed.

I think they'd be much more interesting if they were some kind of construct, animated and empowered by necromancy - maybe something a bit like the D&D Flesh Golem.


Luckily enough, their rules and stats are really fitting for corps golems (maybe they could do with M5 and I1-2). So you don't have to use the ugly official models; just need some green stuff, zombie parts, and maybe ogre parts, ;)

Heh, true.

I'm tempted to add some Necron bits, and try and make them look like scientific experiments. :chrome:

Xerkics
04-02-2013, 18:07
Funnily enough, I had the opposite reaction. The Demigryphs seemed to come out of nowhere (I was relieved that they were such good models) but one look at the Luminark and my brain had parsed the concept as, "Acolytes of the Light College build War Wagon".
Sorry? Demigriffs good models ? Are we talking about same models? Stripped chickens was the first thing that came to mind when i seen those.

The bearded one
04-02-2013, 18:17
Look honey, I made a popular thread :)

BigbyWolf
04-02-2013, 18:30
WoC: Juggercav, that's just ace and pretty fitting. Slaaneshi steed marauders feel more like someone had a fun kitbashing idea to make a slaanesh army. The 2 big monsters are individually pretty decent, but of course because they are a multikit with a single very noticable pose, then when put next to eachother they just reinforce this feeling of being a new addition. Oddly enough the warshrine concept felt like it really fit, like it actually belonged in the army. And then this new over the top model came out and it spontaneously felt out of place ;)

Chaos-wise, the whole JuggerKnights/ Slaaneshi Cav thing was let down because that was all they did. They showed some love to 2 of the Gods, although (as has been stated previously) it was quite odd for Marauders to be blessed with daemonic steeds. It's just a shame that they have to neglect things. The new big monsters feel tacked-on, I for one would have been a lot happier if they'd scrapped them and released Jugger Knights, Warriors on steeds of Slaanesh, Warriors on Discs and Warriors on Panaquins instead.


Funnily enough, I had the opposite reaction. The Demigryphs seemed to come out of nowhere .

IIRC the one from Tamurkhan was well-recieved, so they came from there. It was an exisiting model that a lot of people were clamouring for.

Lord Inquisitor
04-02-2013, 18:33
Look honey, I made a popular thread :)
I'm sure she'll be very proud :p

neXus6
04-02-2013, 23:07
Dunno, you could argue that Warhammer Fantasy Battles have always been about these sorts of units. GW just has the technology to do them justice now. Much of even the early artwork had pretty impressive monsters and beasts, much larger than the little metal monsters on the tabletop looked.

Very true. I guess for the most part it isn't helped by the fact that personally I hate almost every single one of the newer big monster kits.

If I actually liked them then I would be more willing to see how they slide into the background.

The other element, when it comes to Chaos certainly, especially Beasts, is how the character and play style of the army has pretty much been utterly replaced with "TAKE THESE BIG AWESOME MONSTERS". I liked my disorganised raiding Herd.

Odin
04-02-2013, 23:17
Actually, of all the things that don't fit in the new WoC, it is the Hellstriders and Skullcrushers. Daemons don't last long out of the real Chaos Wastes, not even on the fringes. If it were that easy, there would be no reason to have split the armies up, and no reason why mortal worshippers would be much involved in the Incursions at all- the daemons could just sweep down and murder everything.

Other than that, most of the new stuff fits. Except, of course, Snake Surfers. Because they're skeletons keeping balanced on the top of giant snakes.

We've always had mortals riding daemons, even if it was usually just characters. Not only do I think Skullcrushers fit in WHFB, I think they were both inevitable and essential. On the other hand the slaaneshi whateverthehelltheyare light cavalry are a bit silly. I want to see daemon cavalry units for all four gods - Tzeentch Discriders, Slaaneshi Boobworm Cavalry, and something for Nurgle. All filling different roles - flying, fast and resilient respectively (Skullcrushers already filling the "killy" role).

The two new big beasts for WoC are the odd ones for me. Looking at them, I feel they belong in the Daemons book. The Slaughterbrute just looks like a 5th type of Khorne daemon, the tentacle things a much needed expansion for Tzeentch's daemonic armies. In WoC they just look out of place to me.

Sphinxes and the Arachnarok are great additions to their respective armies, and the Empire wizard wagons bring some much needed weirdness from the artwork into the game.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
05-02-2013, 00:16
Ah yeah, I also forgot the big stabba and the nasty skulkers. The big stabba I don't mind, it's juts a big spear after all, so why not? The nasty skulkers, though... sure goblins are sneaky and back-stabbing, but they're not ninjas or assassins, it's stupid, and I can't stand their fluff. So mine are the bloodbowl starplayers. I have a easier time accepting a crazy goblin hitting a chaos warrior in the gonnads with a chainsaw than going all stealthy and stuff.

Haha, I've been using that guy as a fanatic all these years (I felt the body count it produced was hilarious to play out in my mind with a chainsaw). I actually really always felt that goblins ought to have ninjas and so when they came out with the nasty skulkas I was absolutely ecstatic. The models are brilliant! Gonad 'urting makes sense, but it also feels awfully juvenile...but we ARE talking about goblins here...

Not trying to be contrarian here, but the big stabba is a wonderful application of orcish logic. It's also a wonderful bit to use for thematic conversions.

Gaargod
05-02-2013, 01:17
I'm going to agree with others that I really dislike a lot of the big kits. Not all - as mentioned, the Archarnarok and Necrosphinxes are excellent. Some of the smaller kits I'm fine with too. Demigrpyhs I'm surprisingly ok with - I didn't think I'd like them, but they've grown on me, as have the Crypt Ghouls. I feel I should dislike the Juggernauts lack of movement, but they're cool nonetheless.

Some just aren't good, but not too bad. The marauders-on-steeds are terribly posed, the stonehorn is ok but I dislike its bad legs and the minotaurs are overly-muscled but otherwise fine. Oddly, I kinda feel that I should have liked the Jabberslythe, but didn't - it just wasn't what I was expecting.

Others... not so much. The Mortis Engine, Warshrine and Empire Wizard-Wagons all just seem needlessly ornately huge and unbalanced, and Scyla and the two new chaos monsters are worse.

Yet my least favourite of all? The Thundertusk. It is one of the worst designed models I've seen in recent years by GW. The back legs are again awful, far too small (this seems to be a running theme, actually). They're kinda gorilla like, but it's clearly a quadrupedal creature, which would mean it would have the weirdest gait ever, and be very slow for its size. But worse is its utter impossibility to eat. Unless someone was kind enough to walk into its mouth, the thing would starve - it's many, many tusks (including a beard tusk. Why a beard tusk? What the hell does it need to stab with its beard, when it has no less than 4 other tusks to deal with things from that angle?) ensure that.



Oh, and finally, I'm ok with the concept of the Ironblaster, just not its execution. The ogres having massive great 'go-away-cannons'? Fine. Them being salvaged from the Sky Titans seems... doubtful at best (how would it still be working after all this time? Even if it would, how many of them survived?). The idea of the ogres being able to maintain said cannons is slightly more believable, as they manage that with Leadbelcher cannons, but then why is the damn thing more accurate than a normal cannon? Let it do extra damage but be wildly inaccurate (old Hellstorm style). And it should definitely not be that tough, or fast, or good in combat. And finally, its actual model is fine... except for its mode of transport. Not only would the poor Rhinox never, ever get moving at any speed with that on its back (again, why is it fast?), it would be in serious danger of being crushed. Even if it wasn't, can you imagine the recoil on it? It's got to be at least a 24 pounder cannon, the first time you fired it it would probably annihilate the whole contraption, never mind deafen and half-fry the rhinox.

Basically, bad times.



If I actually liked them then I would be more willing to see how they slide into the background.


Aye, that would help me too. Also, I love the translation in your signature, it's most amusing.

m1acca1551
05-02-2013, 04:44
. Even if it wasn't, can you imagine the recoil on it? It's got to be at least a 24 pounder cannon, the first time you fired it it would probably annihilate the whole contraption, never mind deafen and half-fry the rhinox.

Basically, bad times.




In the back ground forum we settled on the empire great cannon being a 42lber cannon... so god knows what lber the OK cannon would be, but you are right, it is just a what the?? model that has been created to sell.

wyvirn
05-02-2013, 05:38
I absolutely love them, but Dwarf Slayer seem to be tacked on in the current book. I know they have the legacy to justify themselves, but in there current iteration they are unarmored dwarfs whose monster slaying job is better handled by cannons.

Urgat
05-02-2013, 06:00
Haha, I've been using that guy as a fanatic all these years (I felt the body count it produced was hilarious to play out in my mind with a chainsaw). I actually really always felt that goblins ought to have ninjas and so when they came out with the nasty skulkas I was absolutely ecstatic. The models are brilliant! Gonad 'urting makes sense, but it also feels awfully juvenile...but we ARE talking about goblins here...

Not trying to be contrarian here, but the big stabba is a wonderful application of orcish logic. It's also a wonderful bit to use for thematic conversions.

Haha it's fine, I was disagreeing with whoever I was quoting too after all ;)

I quite love the demigriphs by the way, I think they're really brilliant. On one hand they play heavily on the griffon imagery of the Empire, and are therefore very fitting, on the second hand, sure they are fantasy creatures, but at the same time they're toned down fantasy, they don't fly, and so it fits well with the Empire as well. I really like them, and the models are very nice, which helps (I didn't like the FW one much, on the other hand).



Oh, and finally, I'm ok with the concept of the Ironblaster, just not its execution. The ogres having massive great 'go-away-cannons'? Fine. Them being salvaged from the Sky Titans seems... doubtful at best (how would it still be working after all this time? Even if it would, how many of them survived?).

Actually, does it say that there's plenty of them in the book? Because it might be a case of the steam tanks or stuff after all, maybe there's only a dozen or something.


it is just a what the?? model that has been created to sell.

I don't want to start an argument, but what the hell do you think GW is here for? Bringing peace to the world? Of course they make models to sell, that's the purpose of a company, making money :/

ewar
05-02-2013, 09:58
Am I the only one that likes the trend towards big kits?

I was flicking through the high elf book the other day and all the army photos made me remember how bland WFB armies used to look. 5 different types of infantry unit, general on a gryphon, small unit of cavalry. No wonder 40k massively overtook fantasy in sales when you think how long they have had big tanks, monsters and all sorts of visually interesting models.

I think WFB is catching up in that regard and now when you see a 2400pt army its a glorious thing on the table - great big units of infantry, cavalry, monsters and monstrous units. BRING IT ON. As I've sometimes seen people say.

P.s. I love the Necro knights, its nice to have mobstrous cav which doesn't fit the 'big rider, stocky mount' archetype for MCs.

Vipoid
05-02-2013, 10:04
No wonder 40k massively overtook fantasy in sales when you think how long they have had big tanks, monsters and all sorts of visually interesting models.


I have to say, I don't think that bigger kits necessarily equate to better models.

40k has more larger models, sure, but I just find a lot of the 40k models in general to be bland, compared to Fantasy models. I mean, the big vehicles for SM (which equate to about half the armies in 40k) are basically boxes. If you're lucky, your box might have a turret.

Anyway, to answer your question, I don't mind big kits. However, nor do I want poorly thought-out models, with terrible fluff, purely because GW wanted the army to have a "big kit" - especially since those might be the only big kits your army will have for many years. In fact, this is probably how SM ended up with the Land Raider: "Look - it's a slightly bigger box!!!".

BaSe
05-02-2013, 10:46
The ogre cannon is not particularly accurate but the accuracy that's shown in game is because it fires multiple cannon balls at 1 time. This allows the re roll.

I feel it fits with the fluff & enjoy it as a model. Also movement 6 with no marching. Not particularly fast.

eldargal
05-02-2013, 10:54
Am I the only one that likes the trend towards big kits?

Nope, I'm all for it, and the fact is most of the complaints are quite silly. We've had a few big plastic kits for WFB scattered through the range for well over a decade, now that each army is getting a fair go with larger plastic kits as 40k armies have had since the 90s people are getting up in arms about it.:rolleyes:

kramplarv
05-02-2013, 11:41
You mean it is silly if someone likes a small selection of big plastic models, only available to a few selected armies? Why is that silly?

I really don't like the huge models. I want the smaller models since I think it looks better on the table. I want my 5th edition giant to be larger than anything else walking around. Save for greater demons or dragons.
I also don't like that a lot of armies have access to multiwound monstrous cavalry/infantry with high speed and high damage output. I actually thinks NO models in the game except heroes or said monstrous stuff should have more than 1 attack. And monstrous units should be limited to only a few armies.

I want cheap 1 wound 1 attack infantry/cavalry to be the mainstay, with a unit of trolls maybe as support. Not the other way round...

ewar
05-02-2013, 12:25
I have to say, I don't think that bigger kits necessarily equate to better models.

40k has more larger models, sure, but I just find a lot of the 40k models in general to be bland, compared to Fantasy models. I mean, the big vehicles for SM (which equate to about half the armies in 40k) are basically boxes. If you're lucky, your box might have a turret.

Anyway, to answer your question, I don't mind big kits. However, nor do I want poorly thought-out models, with terrible fluff, purely because GW wanted the army to have a "big kit" - especially since those might be the only big kits your army will have for many years. In fact, this is probably how SM ended up with the Land Raider: "Look - it's a slightly bigger box!!!".

There is someone who doesn't like the Landraider model!?! Pure madness. (plus, all tanks tend to have boxiness in common...)

I think regardless of whether you prefer fantasy or sci-fi models, it's difficult to argue that until about 5 years ago 40k had much greater variety and scale within any given army, which from a purely aesthetic standpoint is appealing to most people (I think). WFB armies could be just flat blocks of troops, which from more than 12" can be very hard to distinguish from one another.

So anything which boosts sales of WFB is good in my view, I couldn't care less if grumpy old vets moan that it's not like it was in '95.


You mean it is silly if someone likes a small selection of big plastic models, only available to a few selected armies? Why is that silly?

I really don't like the huge models. I want the smaller models since I think it looks better on the table. I want my 5th edition giant to be larger than anything else walking around. Save for greater demons or dragons.
I also don't like that a lot of armies have access to multiwound monstrous cavalry/infantry with high speed and high damage output. I actually thinks NO models in the game except heroes or said monstrous stuff should have more than 1 attack. And monstrous units should be limited to only a few armies.

I want cheap 1 wound 1 attack infantry/cavalry to be the mainstay, with a unit of trolls maybe as support. Not the other way round...


From 21 years of playing warhammer, I can safely say the game has never been about 1 wound 1 attack models. If it wasn't incredible one man army Lords/uber magic in 4th and 5th, to the flying monsters and cavalry of 6th and 7th - the rank and file trooper has always been paste, to be trodden across the tabletops of nerds everywhere.

8th ed is the first time these guys have been able to contribute anything to the game. Plus, you can still take an army exactly like you have always done as all those options and models are still there. I have an old metal giant from the late 90s, and I can safely say he looks quite disappointing on the table. Not very giant. I'd much rather the current plastic one was 50% taller again so he can really stare a Dragon eye to eye.

The difference in scale between models is (IMO) great at the moment. That's not to say they're all fantastic models of course - I think the warshrine in particular is an awful hodge podge, but to each their own.

Vipoid
05-02-2013, 12:28
I think regardless of whether you prefer fantasy or sci-fi models, it's difficult to argue that until about 5 years ago 40k had much greater variety and scale within any given army, which from a purely aesthetic standpoint is appealing to most people (I think). WFB armies could be just flat blocks of troops, which from more than 12" can be very hard to distinguish from one another.

I will grant you that 40K has more variation in model size. However, the Fantasy models just look much more interesting (IMO), than most 40k counterparts.

Asensur
05-02-2013, 14:17
I personally like the additions of the Hurricanum and the Luminark to the Empire army.

These are made with the premise of science trying to control magic. Using lenses and condensers to focus the winds of magic makes sense in a nation with a technology 'boom'.

The concept of being astronomers, physicists, chemists and mathematicians the ones who use magic in the Empire makes a good distinction between these wizards and the one of other races. The Schools of Magic are a better organization when their objective is to 'study' how magic works rather than 'control' its raw power.

Both these additions give us a nice opposition between the Warriors of Chaos and the Empire: the historic confrontation between faith and science. Supporting yourself in god(s) against supporting yourself in science.

Yes, Sigmar is a god for the empire, but he is 'the Man who turned into a God'. A figure made by his acts instead of his simple existence.

DaemonReign
05-02-2013, 15:25
There's the SoulGrinder added to Fantasy Daemons and then there's a nothing for a good long while until we get to the rest of the stuff added in this edition that has to be described as more or less all right in comparison. :)

Kallstrom
06-02-2013, 07:35
Snake surfers. I'm starting tomb kings and there is no way I'm fielding a unit of those. The reasons why has all already been stated in this thread. :) it's a shame,really. However, I do wonder how some kits gets the green light to go ahead..

Giladisb
06-02-2013, 08:51
I am building my Snake surfers as Tomb Guard riding chariots drawn by statues of war hippoes!!!



P.S. Anyone remembering the Hour of the Wolf back on Ulthuan in 2007 should get the reference

Spiney Norman
06-02-2013, 14:07
In all honesty I think viewing something as "bolted on" is the viewpoint of folks like me who have played the game for 4-5 editions and "bolted on" does in fact mean "new". If you've just started the game the army list is the army list, its not a collection of units, half of which weren't in the game 10 years ago and therefore "don't fit" by my 5th Edition understanding of the army. New units are inevitable, they can't just keep remaking models for existing units every 4-6 years


I am building my Snake surfers as Tomb Guard riding chariots drawn by statues of war hippoes!!!



P.S. Anyone remembering the Hour of the Wolf back on Ulthuan in 2007 should get the reference

Lols, back in the day

Kallstrom
06-02-2013, 14:22
Where do you get the hippo statues from?

Sureshot05
06-02-2013, 14:36
My partner actually assembled the snake surfers as snake herders and it looked a lot more fitting.

I've felt each book has gradually gone a bit worse and agree with nearly every thing the beaded one has said except the demigryffs. These really felt like the first "Every army must have a monstrous cavalry unit that sells" insertation to me.

For me:
O&G: This is how it should be done.
TK: Necrosphinx great, rest meh.
OK: Fine except that beast for pulling the cannon. Felt unnecessary.
VC: Suffers from big kits for big kits sake. Giant ghouls, okay. Crazy throne, great concept, but suffers from too many big kits in one army syndrome for me.
Em: Whole release passed me by except for the witch hunter which I was happy to see. Demigryffs just felt too much a forced selling point.
WoC: Cavalry is fine (Juggers have long been part of the background). Giant mutated colourful beasts feel too jarring. A decent paint job could do them justice but these really should have been part of the DoC release. Warshine was unnecessarily over the top and really spoiled the kit.

Future (These are NOT rumours, just guesses):
DoC: We should see the Greater Daemons reclaim center place on the table hopefully.
Dwarves: How I fear for this release. An infantry based army with a load of giant unnecessary things suddenly inserted will really spoil the tone of an excellent force.
Lizard men: Jurassic park. Not a surprise and probably quite fitting.
Wood elves: The trees really do lend themselves to monstrous infantry!

GW needs to stop just making big kits for each army. Trouble is that they have priced themselves out of the core infantry market and others are snatching them up.

loveless
06-02-2013, 15:03
O&G: No complaints or issues. Everything fits in well - though you can typically appease greenskin mentality by taking an existing idea and making it bigger and meaner :p

TK: Sphinxes are fine, as are the Stalkers - the snake riders (Necropolis Knights?) seem a bit silly and just feel like "dual kit for the sake of it"

OK: No complaints or issues. Everything fits in well and they managed to give the Ogres an even more cohesive look. Stonehorn is a spectacular model.

VC: Uber-ghouls bother me - Vargheists aren't much better (given their background). Thrones/Engines both seem alright, though they end up feeling like Lahmian/Necrarch (or /Necromancer) versions of the Black Coach. I adore the Mortis Engine, though, so I'll make it work :p Terrorgheist is brilliant and fits in grandly. Hexwraiths fit the mounted Wraith concept, though the background is iffy (so, they "look" right, but maybe "feel" wrong).

Empire: War Altar, Hurricanum, Demigryphs, Witch Hunter, and Griffons all fit well. I take issue with the Luminark, oddly enough, because it looks like they tried to just build a magic cannon. The background and art often show crazy contraptions on wagons, but their purpose was always vague (what does a War Altar or Hurricanum do?) - the Luminark is too obvious. The Clockwork Steed is still a ridiculous implemenation and looks more Dieselpunk than Steampunk. And why do I want to give a premier ranged/support hero a combat steed? Ugh.

WoC: Warshrine took some getting used to, but is fine - I might actually get one as it seems like a fun painting challenge. Skullcrushers have a stupid name, but precedence in the background. Hellstriders have a stupid name and make less sense (why are we giving Marauders Daemons to ride?). Forsaken felt bolted on in 7th and still do - the horrible 1992-ish models don't help. The Slaughterbrute and Mutalith suffer from "obvious dual kit" syndrome. They really need a less unique pose to work properly. The Mutalith feels alright as an addition - I can see something oddly Lovecraftian like that roaming about behind lines of Chaos warriors and knights, light crackling and cascading through the rift on its back. The Slaughterbrute feels like "We wanted a Shaggoth, but couldn't figure out how to do it in the same box as the Mutalith" - tacked on. It looks like it should be rushing forward and smashing things aside, which feels more Daemon than Warrior to me...at least how I'm imagining it.

Lord Inquisitor
06-02-2013, 15:14
Oddly enough I thought the slaughterbrute looked like the core monster and the mutalith seems like the variant for the sake of tentacles.

Odin
06-02-2013, 18:15
In all honesty I think viewing something as "bolted on" is the viewpoint of folks like me who have played the game for 4-5 editions and "bolted on" does in fact mean "new". If you've just started the game the army list is the army list, its not a collection of units, half of which weren't in the game 10 years ago and therefore "don't fit" by my 5th Edition understanding of the army. New units are inevitable, they can't just keep remaking models for existing units every 4-6 years



Lols, back in the day

No, some things are new but fit just fine and instantlu feel like they've always been threre. Some things seem like a clear attempt by GW to come up with a new unit for a dual-purpose kit.

Urgat
06-02-2013, 19:01
The slaughterbrute/mutaliths suffer from their paint job. When you see a fantasy model painted from head to toe in red, of course you're going to think 'Khorne demon", or "Tzeentch" if you paint it blue. They'd both benefit from being painted mostly in flesh colors, because it'd make them not look like demons, it'd tie them better with the warriors, it'd look more disturbing and less cartoon, in short, it'd be heaps and bounds better.

Giladisb
07-02-2013, 09:56
Where do you get the hippo statues from?

Muller store - kid toys section is your friend

There are also some lovely Rhinos I am planing to use when I get to building the second unit

popisdead
12-02-2013, 20:08
Well,.. at what point do you claim something is tacked on? Historically GW has been releasing new units/kits year after year so after 1983 everything could be?

Do we take Slaves to Darkness/Lost and the Damned as written law and anything that comes out after is tacked on? It's just a moving target that people instantiate from when they start and then get nostalgic really. If you don't want to see things evolve in certain manners it seems odd to allow others based on personal preference. You either accept that you can watch this evolve or just pine for the good ol' days.

Lord Inquisitor
12-02-2013, 20:32
I think the point is that some units feel very much like they belong. I don't think anyone said "Ogres riding mammoths? Ridiculous!" ... even if they didn't like how that particular kit looked.

The Decayed
12-02-2013, 21:09
Am I the only one so far that doesn't like Chosen and Forsaken in full regiments?

To me that just feels weird, even though they've both been in the rules for at least 3 (chosen) / 2 (forsaken) Chaos books.
I thought the "regular" Chaos Warriors were already kind of Chosen, in that they went all the way to the edge of reality and stuff, and got back alive, with suits of super-hell-armour fused to their bodies and all..
To have Chosen even among those in full units feels to me like an overstatement thingy, just to make an infantry unit extra awesome, just for armylist purposes.
Forsaken I think would just have angered an already angry god somehow, which could be kinda rare to linger on like that. I think those people would simply die horribly, or instantly become a Spawn.

Also, 3 editions back, the "Chosen" were super mutated Warriors.
How did that suddenly stop to be, and become basically the opposite of what they were? (Chosen --> Forsaken)

That never felt right to me, even though the models kinda fit in with the rest, visually. Current Chosen are basically Warriors without cloaks at the moment...
So far I've never had a single unit of Chosen or Forsaken and won't have them for a very long time to come. (never)

EDIT: If Chosen were to exist somewhere in the army I think, it would be as simply a name for the Warriors or Knights unit champions, nothing more than that.

Leogun_91
12-02-2013, 21:40
Am I the only one so far that doesn't like Chosen and Forsaken in full regiments?

To me that just feels weird, even though they've both been in the rules for at least 3 (chosen) / 2 (forsaken) Chaos books.
I thought the "regular" Chaos Warriors were already kind of Chosen, in that they went all the way to the edge of reality and stuff, and got back alive, with suits of super-hell-armour fused to their bodies and all..
To have Chosen even among those in full units feels to me like an overstatement thingy, just to make an infantry unit extra awesome, just for armylist purposes.
Forsaken I think would just have angered an already angry god somehow, which could be kinda rare to linger on like that. I think those people would simply die horribly, or instantly become a Spawn.

Also, 3 editions back, the "Chosen" were super mutated Warriors.
How did that suddenly stop to be, and become basically the opposite of what they were? (Chosen --> Forsaken)

That never felt right to me, even though the models kinda fit in with the rest, visually. Current Chosen are basically Warriors without cloaks at the moment...
So far I've never had a single unit of Chosen or Forsaken and won't have them for a very long time to come. (never)

EDIT: If Chosen were to exist somewhere in the army I think, it would be as simply a name for the Warriors or Knights unit champions, nothing more than that.The path to daemonhood has always existed and there has long been many steps on it, chaos warriors becoming champions becoming lords becoming daemonprinces. The Chosen are just another step on that path, the step between warrior and exalted champion.
The Forsaken are really kind of spawns, just not as big.

Morkmillian
12-02-2013, 22:14
Agreed on most things but i think the Empire wagons fit fine as they have a history of crazy wagons even if one got removed in previous editions.

i had really hoped they would bring the war wagon back with the 8th book.
they could have just had the hurricane stuff and the lazer as upgrades for it or just field it as is. (anybody remember the mancatcher weapon - roll to hit then toughness test or die :D)


i used to play in 5th but came back just before 8th was released and when i returned a couple things looked out of place to me.
hell pit abominations, dont know if they were in the fluff back then and i think rat ogres are rats exposed to warpstone is it? so i guess they could grow massive.
but it still seems a bit random to me, rat>skaven>rat ogre>jabba the hut.

and the VC big things just look like a ship wreck on a wave from the pics, yet to see it in person and im sure it looks great. but again just seems like a stapled on "big thing"

id just like to say theres no hatred against the above 2 things, yet to face either of them in a game.

id like to see dwarfs get their airship - thatd fit right in for me on a purley visual basis.
im interested to see what they give high elfs when they get released.
and any guess's at what bretts would get if it all the army books went along the same path.

Trustey
12-02-2013, 22:33
Some of the new WoC releases look like they pooped in a litterbox of spiky chaos bits and rolled it around and called it a model.

Morkmillian
12-02-2013, 22:43
Some of the new WoC releases look like they pooped in a litterbox of spiky chaos bits and rolled it around and called it a model.

lol, dont give gw any ideas.
finecast is bad enough.

"costs us a tenth of the price, you pay 10X more, new brown cast"

Promethius
13-02-2013, 11:58
Future (These are NOT rumours, just guesses):
Dwarves: How I fear for this release. An infantry based army with a load of giant unnecessary things suddenly inserted will really spoil the tone of an excellent force.

GW needs to stop just making big kits for each army. Trouble is that they have priced themselves out of the core infantry market and others are snatching them up.

Unfortunately I disagree completely. Dwarfs are a fantasy staple but in warhammer you have blocks of infantry which aren't very visually distinctive (other than slayers) and a variety of static warmachines that are the same size.

Personally I think dwarfs are in desperate need of something to provide visual focus and potentially something with some speed that can react to enemy moves. Ancestor statues/golems are imo a really good idea.

To me, warhammer has to do something to separate themselves from other minature developers as you say. Several competitors are making very nice infantry models. Not many are making large-scale kits. A visual draw like a dragon, a necrosphinx or a giant might draw you to an army and then inspire you to pick up the other kits. Shoe-horn them in!

CrystalSphere
13-02-2013, 12:30
I fear the battle between Asuryus Prime and Khainotron will come... sooner than you think.

Leogun_91
13-02-2013, 13:57
Unfortunately I disagree completely. Dwarfs are a fantasy staple but in warhammer you have blocks of infantry which aren't very visually distinctive (other than slayers) and a variety of static warmachines that are the same size.The problem is that those that play dwarfs in warhammer like that, that is the reason they play them. If you make the dwarfs lose things that make them interesting to their players those players won't be very interested in them anymore and might quit the system entirely. The new kits are needed but them fitting in is equally required, big kits added to dwarfs would possibly throw that project of the pipeline for me and into a bottomless pit filled with flying sharks while at the moment I and a friend plan to revisit and remake our two first armies (Lizardmen for him and Dwarfs for me) and keep painting logs, battlereports and everything chronicling that, if they change the dwarfs from the army I know and love that will not happen (Instead I will write several pages of ranting in Khazalid and send them).

Sheena Easton
13-02-2013, 14:01
I'm probably in a minority of one in thinking that despite loving the concept the Arachnorok screams "bolt-on" since it is in a book where Forest Goblins are more than likely only included if you bought BFSP and you can't have a Shaman riding a smaller spider yet it can somehow climb on a massive "living god" one... if it was in 4th / 5th Ed where Forest Goblins were properly in the book then it would be an easier fit. Nasty Skulkers, Big Stabba and Mangler Squigs don't fit either - the former pair seem to be rules for rules sake and the latter is just lazy. Not as lazy as the ugly bigger squigs they put in MA... and the idea of Common / Night Goblin Shamans being able to call on the power of a god that only Forest Goblins believe in is blatantly tacked on.

Tomb Kings - everything fits except the Snake Surfers which were badly thought out.

Ogres - the big cannon makes sense, but also seems tacked on. Everything else works.

VC - Terrorgheist fits despite the ridiculous way they were rammed into that even more ridiculous "story" as do Hexwraiths. The Mortis Engine and Coven Throne are interesting and I think the latter is a worse fit than the former. Crypt Horrors and Vargheists are badly fitting and don't belong and neither do the Fighty Vampires being able to take on Chaos Lords with ease while also being equal in spellcasting to the most powerful wizards of other races.

Empire - The Wizardwagons aren't too bad but if they hadn't been rammed into older fluff and were written as more recent inventions they would be a much better fit. Demigryphs and 2-headed Griffons don't belong.

Daemons - Soul Grinder is the second worst offender and really shouldn't be there. Blatantly bolted on. The Slaanesh Combine Harvester doesn't seem quite so bad in comparison though it too is ridiculous but is more of a badly executed concept. Slaughterbrute in here however would be a good fit.

WOC - Slaughterbrute belongs in Daemons or Beasts, Mutilath could fit in any, Hellstriders are stupid and very badly done.

High Elves - That stupid Lion Chariot is by far the worst offender.

New Special Characters in general have felt bolted on since 6th Ed, worst offenders being Grimbore, Zacharias, all the Daemon ones, Balthazar, the thankfully removed Eltharion theblindninjajedisamuraiswordmaster...

Vipoid
13-02-2013, 14:26
Unfortunately I disagree completely. Dwarfs are a fantasy staple but in warhammer you have blocks of infantry which aren't very visually distinctive (other than slayers) and a variety of static warmachines that are the same size.

Personally I think dwarfs are in desperate need of something to provide visual focus and potentially something with some speed that can react to enemy moves. Ancestor statues/golems are imo a really good idea.

To me, warhammer has to do something to separate themselves from other minature developers as you say. Several competitors are making very nice infantry models. Not many are making large-scale kits. A visual draw like a dragon, a necrosphinx or a giant might draw you to an army and then inspire you to pick up the other kits. Shoe-horn them in!

But, if GW just shoe-horns large models into every army, surely they'll just stop being unique?

I'd have thought part of the attraction would be an army that looks different from the others in a way you like. If every army boasts some huge dragon or sphinx model, then you're back to square 1. :shifty:


VC - Terrorgheist fits despite the ridiculous way they were rammed into that even more ridiculous "story" as do Hexwraiths.

Ugh, yeah, that story was terrible.


neither do the Fighty Vampires being able to take on Chaos Lords with ease while also being equal in spellcasting to the most powerful wizards of other races.

I have to say, I completely disagree.

Firstly, why shouldn't VLs be equal to Chaos Lords?

Second, after their new book, I'm not even sure that they are equal - chaos lords now seem the stronger ones. And, even, if you dispute that; your Nurgle Daemon princes can beat any Vampire Lord or SGK build you'd care to name.

Finally, how are Vampires the equals in spellcasting to the most powerful wizards of other races? All the magic-related powers are horrendously overpriced, and not even that good. We certainly have nothing that even compares to Slaan, Teclis/Book of Hoeth, Sacrificial Dagger or Lords of Change.

Marshal_Loss
13-02-2013, 16:21
None of the 8th edition WoC releases feel like they should exist. The Skullcrushers & Hellstriders are okay I suppose - all they are is disciples of a god on the steed of their god, so it isn't anything major.

The changes to Archaon's back story reflect this perfectly (deliberately including both the new Slaughterbrute & recently released Valkia & Vilitch). Simply pathetic! The fluff in the book is legitimately simply copied, and the Mutalith/Slaughterbrute have no real backstory whatsoever. They simply exist, and I feel like delving into the story of the Mutalith in particular would have been really interesting if they'd put effort in. Overall, the background in the new book is pathetic. It is a good book, don't get me wrong - I like the list - but the rampant copy/pasting is just pathetic, and creatures like the Slaughterbrute & Mutalith now simply...exist.

- I only collect WoC so I just ranted about that :D

Lord Inquisitor
13-02-2013, 17:21
I think they could easily make a big kit that still fits with the Dwarf imagery. A big steam-powered zeppelin bedecked with cannons would be a simple choice. And nothing is forcing traditional dwarfs to take the new-fangled units.

I for one wouldn't consider Dwarfs as an army unless they had some more potential for centrepiece models and conversions.

anthioram
13-02-2013, 17:39
Dwarves may use some sort of big kit, but they don't need it as long as they make the infantry options more unique.
As a matter of fact, if dwarves could get cheaper gyrocopters in units, I'd make a dwarf army right now just to be able to sing "ride of the valkyries" every movement phase. :)

Urgat
14-02-2013, 11:02
I think they could easily make a big kit that still fits with the Dwarf imagery. A big steam-powered zeppelin bedecked with cannons would be a simple choice. And nothing is forcing traditional dwarfs to take the new-fangled units.

I'm wary of blimp kits at this scale, honestly. It has all the chances of looking dumb, with a small balloon (because you can only make it so big) and an enormous gondola (because you got to fit all these cannons and crew), and that would like, hem, bad.
My personal favourite remains a "chinook (http://www.enemyforces.net/helicopters/ch47_chinook.jpg)" version of the gyrocopter, which would work like a transport vehicle in 40K, being able to drop small shock teams of ironbreakers or whatever behind enemy lines, and provide some cover fire. That'd be cool, new tech, still promote melee, well, that's what i'd love to see.

leopard
14-02-2013, 17:52
+1 on the big spider feeling out of place, now if the list had "forest goblins" in as a unit entry - common gobbos without the light armour, but able to have blowpipes and posion attacks as upgrades - plus characters (and these the only ones with spiders as mounts) then it "fits" - but perhaps its just an obvious "expansion" for them to drop out at some point with some new models. But agree it feels wrong currently

mr.hardrada
14-02-2013, 18:48
For me I believe hellstriders are tacked on. As a Chaos player I believe marauders should be mere cannon fodder and not bestowed sweet mounts but that's just my opinion.

loveless
14-02-2013, 19:53
For me I believe hellstriders are tacked on. As a Chaos player I believe marauders should be mere cannon fodder and not bestowed sweet mounts but that's just my opinion.

I'd agree - I just think Slaanesh wanted some beefcake on his mounts instead of armor. I'd have preferred proper Chaos Warriors on Steeds of Slaanesh, though (and Disc of Tzeentch riders, but hey...that might have gotten out of hand).

TheDungen
14-02-2013, 20:28
well no one says slaanesh knight on steedsw would have had to be bulky, they might have been closer to the slaanesh characters in style then they would've fitted very well atop steeds. and where the jugger knigths are heavier chaos knights the slaneshi ones could've been faster chaos knights.

oh and good old chaos knight would've been cheaper chaos knights.

loveless
14-02-2013, 20:29
well no one says slaanesh knight on steedsw would have had to be bulky, they might have been closer to the slaanesh characters in style then they would've fitted very well atop steeds. and where the jugger knigths are heavier chaos knights the slaneshi ones could've been faster chaos knights.

Agreed - give them all armor akin to Sigvald's or the Slaanesh lord on steed and they'd have looked grand. Ah well though.

ewar
16-02-2013, 23:57
Whenever I come back to this thread, I picture you lot as a bunch of grumbling old neckbeards, lamenting the loss of the total power card and hordes of chaos. :shifty:

Change is good. It's needed. If all GW did for an army release was re-order old fluff and re-package existing modes into smaller boxes for the same price, then this hobby would not have held my attention for so long (that's not to say they don't do either of these things already of course...)

I honestly don't see why anyone would complain of units being added to your army of choice - remember, you're not forced to buy them or use them! If you don't want airships added to your dwarf army then just carry on using your marauder era Imperial Dwarves, nothing gets taken away these days so you're not losing out. The worst that can happen is that you just carry on as you are!

Leogun_91
17-02-2013, 01:51
Whenever I come back to this thread, I picture you lot as a bunch of grumbling old neckbeards, lamenting the loss of the total power card and hordes of chaos. :shifty:

Change is good. It's needed. If all GW did for an army release was re-order old fluff and re-package existing modes into smaller boxes for the same price, then this hobby would not have held my attention for so long (that's not to say they don't do either of these things already of course...)

I honestly don't see why anyone would complain of units being added to your army of choice - remember, you're not forced to buy them or use them! If you don't want airships added to your dwarf army then just carry on using your marauder era Imperial Dwarves, nothing gets taken away these days so you're not losing out. The worst that can happen is that you just carry on as you are!You do understand that the dwarf archetype is old grumblers. When you have an army made of the guys you might consider the fact that many of the ones that like it are the grumbling old neckbeards, saying that grumbling about old times is a bad idea is a good point but when you make an army to appeal to the people that do so...well don't be surprised that they do.

Drasanil
17-02-2013, 02:45
Also, old card based magic system was much better than the current one. Grumble grumble :p

5th edd might have been maligned as 'herohammer' but it did have some fun stuff, been years and years and I still miss my general's old Amber Amulet. I'd happily give up my Pendant of Khaleth to have it back.

Urgat
17-02-2013, 14:42
You do understand that the dwarf archetype is old grumblers. When you have an army made of the guys you might consider the fact that many of the ones that like it are the grumbling old neckbeards, saying that grumbling about old times is a bad idea is a good point but when you make an army to appeal to the people that do so...well don't be surprised that they do.

So, are goblin players suppoed to be dirty midgets who play nasty tricks to everybody? :p I'm sorry, but making that kind of analogy makes no sense. The army is not the player, I don't think slaanesh players actually advocate or enjoy physical pain. Not all of them, at least.

logan054
17-02-2013, 19:42
None of the 8th edition WoC releases feel like they should exist. The Skullcrushers & Hellstriders are okay I suppose - all they are is disciples of a god on the steed of their god, so it isn't anything major.

I dunno if I agree on the skullcrushers, seems like chosen Khorne knights to me and that seems like a very fitting unit, hellstriders certainly seem like a very odd unit choice to add but mainly I think this is because of the choice of rider.

Promethius
18-02-2013, 07:44
The problem is that those that play dwarfs in warhammer like that, that is the reason they play them. If you make the dwarfs lose things that make them interesting to their players those players won't be very interested in them anymore and might quit the system entirely. The new kits are needed but them fitting in is equally required, big kits added to dwarfs would possibly throw that project of the pipeline for me and into a bottomless pit filled with flying sharks while at the moment I and a friend plan to revisit and remake our two first armies (Lizardmen for him and Dwarfs for me) and keep painting logs, battlereports and everything chronicling that, if they change the dwarfs from the army I know and love that will not happen (Instead I will write several pages of ranting in Khazalid and send them).

Now that is a view point I understand and agree with. I did a count of different armies and number of plastic kits and dwarfs were well down with the bottom few in terms of numbers of plastic sets. IMO their sets are also a bit rubbish. Even if they don't attract a re-design, it is quite a valid argument that many dwarf players would prefer plastic hammerers/slayers/iron breakers before new kits are added. Personally I don't see why we can't have both and with the new avatar of war plastics which make gw models look like crud, I don't think gw have much choice but to do something radical with dwarfs.


But, if GW just shoe-horns large models into every army, surely they'll just stop being unique?

I'd have thought part of the attraction would be an army that looks different from the others in a way you like. If every army boasts some huge dragon or sphinx model, then you're back to square 1. :shifty:



The thing is, warhammer has always been over the top. Massive weapons, crazy inventions, ambitious projects. Citadel even used to have large-scale kits 'back in the day' like the dwarf juggernaut, the old dwarf anvil with wheels and a chap stood on top, the empire steam tank, skaven doom wheel and chaos dwarf monsters. The limit back then was the weight of the material and most of us had to get proficient with a drill and metal pins. I suspect if you went back through old magazines you would find most armies had large-scale models. I agree new additions should be characterful and fit in with the established fluff but I think most armies will have a few good things that can be added without causing too much upset.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
19-02-2013, 17:10
That old Anvil of Doom on wheels was the bee's knees. I'm getting all nostalgic now... I think I should paint my guys with red spears!

Kurnous the Hunter
21-02-2013, 06:48
Most of the new stuff from 6th edition onwards is borderline to Horrible. Demigryph's, Mournfangs (actually a lot of the OK stuff, actually OK in general which are just f'n stupid), Wizard mobiles, Pegasus Knights, Lion Chariots are just crap. The fluff and feel of the game has taken a serious nose dive but the rules are generally improving until spastic Armybook authors write up some insane magic items (DE Pendant Lords anyone?) or introduce insane units (Mournfangs!) that trash balance. If an Avatar of Khaine does appear, I will be disgusted.

The bearded one
21-02-2013, 11:56
Most of the new stuff from 6th edition onwards is borderline to Horrible. Demigryph's, Mournfangs (actually a lot of the OK stuff, actually OK in general which are just f'n stupid), Wizard mobiles, Pegasus Knights, Lion Chariots are just crap. The fluff and feel of the game has taken a serious nose dive but the rules are generally improving until spastic Armybook authors write up some insane magic items (DE Pendant Lords anyone?) or introduce insane units (Mournfangs!) that trash balance. If an Avatar of Khaine does appear, I will be disgusted.

What's wrong with ogre kingdoms?

ewar
21-02-2013, 12:10
Most of the new stuff from 6th edition onwards is borderline to Horrible. Demigryph's, Mournfangs (actually a lot of the OK stuff, actually OK in general which are just f'n stupid), Wizard mobiles, Pegasus Knights, Lion Chariots are just crap. The fluff and feel of the game has taken a serious nose dive but the rules are generally improving until spastic Armybook authors write up some insane magic items (DE Pendant Lords anyone?) or introduce insane units (Mournfangs!) that trash balance. If an Avatar of Khaine does appear, I will be disgusted.

Why do you even play the game if you hate that much stuff? 6th edition came out when, around 1999-2000? Maybe you didn't notice, but that's a loooooooong time ago. Those things aren't 'new' by any stretch of the imagination.

Would you prefer it if we all went back to playing with units of 10-15 men and the most elaborate element of the army was a hero on a pegasus? The game has changed since then and massively for the better in my eyes.

Urgat
21-02-2013, 12:40
What's wrong with ogre kingdoms?

By the sound of it, it wasn't released with 1st edition :p

Sureshot05
21-02-2013, 12:50
I thought I'd just comment on the Daemons release in light of what we've seen.

Tzeentch chariot. Fits, and was expected.
Flamer chariot. Surprisingly I'd say the concept fits, but the implemention is pretty poor and is just another "two kits in one" shoehorn.
Khorne throne. A poor attempt at the Khorne chariot people have been waiting for. Khorne cannon: Bloodletters manning a gun just doesn't work for me in warhammer. The cannon idea itself I can get behind, but the crew is just daft.
Plague fliers: I think the concept fits in, but I'd say the implementation is pretty poor.

StygianBeach
21-02-2013, 13:48
I thought I'd just comment on the Daemons release in light of what we've seen.

Tzeentch chariot. Fits, and was expected.
Flamer chariot. Surprisingly I'd say the concept fits, but the implemention is pretty poor and is just another "two kits in one" shoehorn.
Khorne throne. A poor attempt at the Khorne chariot people have been waiting for. Khorne cannon: Bloodletters manning a gun just doesn't work for me in warhammer. The cannon idea itself I can get behind, but the crew is just daft.
Plague fliers: I think the concept fits in, but I'd say the implementation is pretty poor.

The Khorne Chariot/Throne look horrible. Why would a Khorne Cannon need a crew. Why did'nt Khorne just make an extra big Juggernaut and give it a Cannon for a tail. The Khorne Cannon looks like an OK Iron Blaster.

The Nurgle Flies look fine... but why do they have riders... Pilot Plague Bearers, what... the...

I will probably get used to all of it though.... maybe in 12 months or so...

Sheena Easton
21-02-2013, 23:19
I have to say, I completely disagree.

Firstly, why shouldn't VLs be equal to Chaos Lords?

Second, after their new book, I'm not even sure that they are equal - chaos lords now seem the stronger ones. And, even, if you dispute that; your Nurgle Daemon princes can beat any Vampire Lord or SGK build you'd care to name.

Finally, how are Vampires the equals in spellcasting to the most powerful wizards of other races? All the magic-related powers are horrendously overpriced, and not even that good. We certainly have nothing that even compares to Slaan, Teclis/Book of Hoeth, Sacrificial Dagger or Lords of Change.

If you read what I have written I have said I disagree with Vampires that are both powerful fighters and powerful spellcasters - they should be good at one but not at the other, or mediocre at both. I don't disagree with Vampires that can go toe to toe with the best combat Lords provided said Vampires aren't Level 4 wizards (by definition of the most powerful spellcasters in the game as you can't have Level 5). The whole Blood Dragons with the magical prowess of Necrarchs is shoehorned in, and exploiting a gap that they couldn't be arsed fixing when they introduced bloodlines, wrote them out then reintroduced them in a slapdash, half arsed and lazy way.

Vipoid
22-02-2013, 09:36
If you read what I have written I have said I disagree with Vampires that are both powerful fighters and powerful spellcasters - they should be good at one but not at the other, or mediocre at both.

And, as before, I still don't see why they need to be only good at one, or mediocre at both. They're among the most expensive (and valuable) lords in the game, in an army where the core choices struggle to fight their way out of a paper-bag. Why shouldn't our Lords be good?

Out of interest, do you also feel the same about WoC Daemon Princes?


I don't disagree with Vampires that can go toe to toe with the best combat Lords provided said Vampires aren't Level 4 wizards (by definition of the most powerful spellcasters in the game as you can't have Level 5).

Actually, Arkhan the Black is a level 5 wizard.

In any case, you're wrong. Lv4 may indeed by the highest level of wizard but, with the exception of dwarves, it's a level that's available to every army.

It's naive then, to assume that lv4 equates to 'most powerful'. Whilst VLs can be Lv4 wizards, they're far from the most powerful wizards in warhammer. It's being a Lv4 plus your magic bonuses that make you the most powerful.

Once again, I invite you to tell me what Vampire Lords have that makes them comparable to Slaan, Teclis/Book of Hoeth, Sacrificial Dagger or Lords of Change in terms of casting power.

gorenut
22-02-2013, 16:22
What's wrong with ogre kingdoms?


By the sound of it, it wasn't released with 1st edition :p

Thats the gist I got. I remember when OK were first released.. everyone thought it was gonna be the next point and click force that the children will flock to. Also, a lot of army books for existing armies that needed attention badly got a spit in the face with this release. This is also on top of GW changing around fluff just to make Ogres flocking in large numbers a viable scenario. There are other reasons as well such as people feeling they don't even fit in, etc. Not sure how many people still hold resentment over this, but I was always ok with them and I love a lot of the models (anything that Brian Nelson does for that matter).

Kurnous the Hunter
27-02-2013, 09:35
Thats the gist I got. I remember when OK were first released.. everyone thought it was gonna be the next point and click force that the children will flock to. Also, a lot of army books for existing armies that needed attention badly got a spit in the face with this release. This is also on top of GW changing around fluff just to make Ogres flocking in large numbers a viable scenario. There are other reasons as well such as people feeling they don't even fit in, etc. Not sure how many people still hold resentment over this, but I was always ok with them and I love a lot of the models (anything that Brian Nelson does for that matter).

I started in 4th Edition. I am primarily an Elf player, but also play Dwarves and Empire. When some of the new books were released (At the time Lizardmen) I was annoyed at the fluff raping the elves took. But ever since then, the introduction of new armies/models has introduced more and more fluff raping and just plain silliness. When I saw OG, I quit. Getting older and busy with work had something to do with it but I was just plain disgusted with GW money grabbing. OG fluff was on the border between bad and horrible but I came to peace with it. Then stupid insane **** happened.

1). Sniping and/or Scouting ogres - so silly but not quite super OP.
2). Ogres bearing cannon. Seriously WTF?
3). Mournfang. OMG what a silly unit on all levels - fluff, and purely OP! How can a giant cat carry a 500kg+ Ogre as fast as a horse can carry a man...the mind boggles (yes I am aware this is fantasy, but this defies even fantasy 'logic')
4). 8th edition rules clearly favour monstrous infantry - stomps and supporting attacks (as well as those cheesy impact hits from the past)
5). Undercosted Characters

Then the new empire turn up with demigryph Knights? REALLY GW? I liked playing the Empire as the race that was most 'normal' - High Medieval/Renaissance, using their flexibility and technical ingenuity to overcome the physically/magically superior foes. Then they get more monsters, and get those silly silly wagons. WTF? For the record I liked 5th edition introduction of Priests and Engineers.

I also hated the Albion campaign and all the fluff rape that occurred there. Then as the editions piled on, Dwarf holds have been getting waxed like no tomorrow, sort of how Craftworlds are getting destroyed willy-nilly in 40K.

And now we have that f'n stupid Khorne Cannon. What an abomination on all fronts.

Francis
27-02-2013, 09:47
Agree with everything Kurnous said, with the exception of the Albion campaign which I thought was a good idea. Also bring back Dogs of War. The warhammer world is a smaller and poorer place without them.

Ulthwe's Tears
27-02-2013, 09:52
I started in 4th Edition. I am primarily an Elf player, but also play Dwarves and Empire. When some of the new books were released (At the time Lizardmen) I was annoyed at the fluff raping the elves took. But ever since then, the introduction of new armies/models has introduced more and more fluff raping and just plain silliness. When I saw OG, I quit. Getting older and busy with work had something to do with it but I was just plain disgusted with GW money grabbing. OG fluff was on the border between bad and horrible but I came to peace with it. Then stupid insane **** happened.

1). Sniping and/or Scouting ogres - so silly but not quite super OP.
2). Ogres bearing cannon. Seriously WTF?
3). Mournfang. OMG what a silly unit on all levels - fluff, and purely OP! How can a giant cat carry a 500kg+ Ogre as fast as a horse can carry a man...the mind boggles (yes I am aware this is fantasy, but this defies even fantasy 'logic')
4). 8th edition rules clearly favour monstrous infantry - stomps and supporting attacks (as well as those cheesy impact hits from the past)
5). Undercosted Characters

Then the new empire turn up with demigryph Knights? REALLY GW? I liked playing the Empire as the race that was most 'normal' - High Medieval/Renaissance, using their flexibility and technical ingenuity to overcome the physically/magically superior foes. Then they get more monsters, and get those silly silly wagons. WTF? For the record I liked 5th edition introduction of Priests and Engineers.

I also hated the Albion campaign and all the fluff rape that occurred there. Then as the editions piled on, Dwarf holds have been getting waxed like no tomorrow, sort of how Craftworlds are getting destroyed willy-nilly in 40K.

And now we have that f'n stupid Khorne Cannon. What an abomination on all fronts.

Firstly, don't use the word rape for this. It is a completely ridiculous exaggeration.

OK, step by step.

1) Scouting or sniping ogres - why are they silly? It doesn't seem absurd at all, and in game it is pretty ineffective due to the all the minuses to hit. Not to mention the expense of the unit.
2) Ogres bearing cannons - why is this silly? It seems in character to me. Not to mention it seems fitting that they just filly them with all sorts of rubbish equipment. It is loud and excessive, which seems very fitting.
3) Mournfang - if you look at the size of the Mournfang it seems logical that they can bear the weight of an Ogre. Not sure what else there is to say...
4) Ok, maybe. I think that with stomps the bull charge rule doesn't really need to exist anymore.
5) Ok. Seems a bit an afterthought though...

As for Demigryphs... don't use them! They already have griffons and pegasi. It doesn't seem a stretch. Though the actual unit fluff is lacklustre and should have been more about experimentation on griffons or something. Using technology to harness nature.

Vipoid
27-02-2013, 10:37
1). Sniping and/or Scouting ogres - so silly but not quite super OP.
2). Ogres bearing cannon. Seriously WTF?
3). Mournfang. OMG what a silly unit on all levels - fluff, and purely OP! How can a giant cat carry a 500kg+ Ogre as fast as a horse can carry a man...the mind boggles (yes I am aware this is fantasy, but this defies even fantasy 'logic')
4). 8th edition rules clearly favour monstrous infantry - stomps and supporting attacks (as well as those cheesy impact hits from the past)
5). Undercosted Characters

1) This one I agree with completely. Scouting ogres isn't too bad, but sniping ogres just seems... ludicrous. They just don't seem like the sort of race that should have guns good enough for precision shots. And, even then, it wouldn't be so bad, if their snipers weren't so amazing. BS3, Multiple Shots, 24", S4, Armour Piercing, no penalties for moving and, if desired, poisoned shots. That's what really makes it silly for me - not just that ogres have snipers, but that they seem to have the best snipers in the game.

2) This one I don't really mind.

3) They were made a little too strong but, again, I don't think they're too bad. Although, I now have an amusing mental image of the cat being crushed beneath the weight of a fat ogre attempting to ride it, and making pathetic attempts to crawl forwards. :p

4) The Horde rules for monstrous infantry make them very good. But, I don't think it's a huge problem. It's mostly just irritating, when you realise that all your units with Killing Blow, Fear, Stomp/Thunderstomp etc. are basically wasted against everything in the enemy army.

5) Really? I thought most of the Ogre Characters seemed about right in terms of points. Which ones do you think are overcosted?

Urgat
27-02-2013, 10:37
He dislikes ogres, I don't necessarily agree (I like them, I have an OK army, in fact :p), but it's his right, there's no real need to argue his tastes. I'll just say that I think the mournfangs are more like a mix between a boar and a bear than a cat, to be honest. A boar can certainly carry a kid (If a sheep could carry me around when I was a kid, a boar can too), and that's pretty much the respective size between an ogre and a mournfang. The only thing I really hate about them (bar the fact they're a tad too cheap and their stupid fangs) is their name in French (ferox? Huh?). I agree it's a bit odd ogres can tend cannons, though, but it looks cool so I accept it regardless.


Though the actual unit fluff is lacklustre and should have been more about experimentation on griffons or something. Using technology to harness nature.

I'd rather we left bioengineering to skavens and necrachs, to be honest. Demis seem low fantasy enough for me to fit in the Empire army, and they fit well with the strong griffon imagery as well, I think they were a clever addition.

Voodoo1
27-02-2013, 20:12
Whem Ogres first came out, I thought it was a dumb idea. But it grew on me. When there was talks of monstrous cavalry and the Forgeworld Rhinox riders came out, I thought that was fitting. Then for some reason they decide not to press ahead with the Forgeworld idea but to mount them on these cats... I still find it hard to get use too. I liked how the Hunter had these large sabre tusk cats, but now there are even larger ones roaming around that the ogres kind of stand on.. I will get use to it too. It will just take time.

A lot of units fit, it's just the fluff that feels bolted on. Why do they change established fluff to fit these new units in, and not add them as new fangled contraptions. These new wizard-mobiles could just have been simply new carriages that the colleges of magic are trying out. The Demigryphs could be a new beasts found in which some heroic knights have been able to tame and mount.

Worship
28-02-2013, 15:56
I agreed with pretty much everything, with the exception of some minor things here & there.

The WoC warshrine is ok, but I think it'd fit better with a darker paint scheme. I noticed this mentioned in another thread, but some of the paint jobs by the artists have been really bright and cartoon-y. Take the warshrine several tones down, make it look more dirty and evil, then I think it would fit better.

Slaneshii riders are a little silly, I agree. Doesn't seem like much thought put into them.