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TheDungen
03-02-2013, 20:54
Lo folks, I have a few questions:

1. how small ships are capapble of warp travel? could say a thunderhawk or aquila be fitted for that purpose?

2. What ships does rogue traders use? I foudn a rogue trader cruiser in BFG but on the other hand a cruiser is supposed to have 10.000-100.000 crewmembers, while i'm certain some rogue traders can afford such ships i doubt that all of them does.

3. How common is it for people in the 40k universe to own starships, is it basically unheard of for non imperial official non rogue trader to do so or are there regular traders, is smuggling an issue?

thats all i can think of for now.

cheers

Tyrelli
03-02-2013, 20:57
This might be a good start for the Rogue Trader Ships
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rogue_Trader

Stonerhino
03-02-2013, 21:07
1. You can have single seat Star Wars style ships. They just extremely rare. The Tau Manta is the smallest mass produced FTL capable ship I can think of.

2. Rogue Tader's rulebook has rogue traers with small "Raider" class ships. Think Cobra class destoryer as an example.

3. I believe that you need an Impeial mandate to own a warp capable ship. Though I can't site a source. It just feels right.

MajorWesJanson
03-02-2013, 23:52
1. You can have single seat Star Wars style ships. They just extremely rare. The Tau Manta is the smallest mass produced FTL capable ship I can think of.

2. Rogue Tader's rulebook has rogue traers with small "Raider" class ships. Think Cobra class destoryer as an example.

3. I believe that you need an Impeial mandate to own a warp capable ship. Though I can't site a source. It just feels right.

Mantas are Warp capable?

Stonerhino
04-02-2013, 00:05
Mantas have the Tau's FTL drives. Page 208 IA 3 for proof. To much typing for my phone. It is however more limited then their other naval ships. But still interstellar.

Kakapo42
04-02-2013, 03:22
Mantas are Warp capable?

They indeed are, however their ether drives are not as fast as a full starship's over interstellar distances.

Lothlanathorian
04-02-2013, 03:26
Actually, technically, no Tau ship is Warp capable. They don't enter the Warp at all.

Retrospectus
04-02-2013, 04:30
They do enter the warp. but only the "shallows" meaning they can't make full use of it like other races and are limited to short hops.

Stonerhino
04-02-2013, 07:24
They do enter the warp. but only the "shallows" meaning they can't make full use of it like other races and are limited to short hops.Actually they don't break the warp/real barrier. They bend that barrier then ride the slingshot effect to achieve great speeds. So even though it's much slower then true warp travel it is a lot safer. No daemons and all that other icky warp stuff.

The bearded one
04-02-2013, 11:06
Here is the explanation from lexicanum, which took it from BFG. Basically tau ships do not fully enter the warp, but they do break into it before being hurled back out at incredible speed. In any case we're talking semantics here, we know what was roughly the intention of what stonerhino said about manta's.

"The Tau, because they lack psykers as a race, are incapable of fully entering the warp. However, based on duplicating the warp drive from an unknown alien vessel they have found a way of 'diving' towards the warp, extending the field of their drive into a wing shape designed to hold their vessel in the warp, before being hurled into real space again like a ball held under water and then released. While this is much slower, by a factor of five when compared to Imperial jump speed, it is a lot safer because they do not enter the warp deep enough to become exposed to any of its dangers, and is also much more predictable as their speed works out to a consistent rate. Nevertheless, this limited form of warp travel has resulted in the Tau Empire being closely packed around their home system.2"

Morganstern
04-02-2013, 11:33
Also Eisenhorn has a small warp capable ship he calls his gun cutter in the Eisenhorn series. I think it is about the size of a stormbird.

malika
04-02-2013, 12:53
Was Eisenhorn's guncutter actually Warp capable?

Vaulkhar
04-02-2013, 13:13
I don't believe so. They usually used chartered vessels for interstellar work. The guncutter was more like a Stormbudgie or a Thunderhawk - a very heavily armed surface/orbit shuttle.

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 14:16
so millenium falcon or serenity size vessels don't do warp travel in warhammer 40k?

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-02-2013, 16:06
Not really, no. Warp drives are both rare and dangerous and the majority of ships won't have one. Smaller ships will instead dock with much bigger merchant ships and effectively hitch a ride with them through the warp.

dean
04-02-2013, 16:47
Serenity was based on a single (large) system. And would not count as "Interstellar".

Idaan
04-02-2013, 17:09
Also Eisenhorn has a small warp capable ship he calls his gun cutter in the Eisenhorn series. I think it is about the size of a stormbird.
He piggybacks interstellar ships like that Rogue Trader who had a crew entirely made of servitors. The guncutter is not warp capable.


Lo folks, I have a few questions:

1. how small ships are capapble of warp travel? could say a thunderhawk or aquila be fitted for that purpose?
The smallest mass produced ship is Cobra, just below a kilometer in length. This is not to say you couldn't have smaller ships, but they're incredibly rare, like the null ships. Normal people don't have access to those without a good reason. And you can't really transport stuff in those, because the Warp drive takes up most of the volume either way.


2. What ships does rogue traders use? I foudn a rogue trader cruiser in BFG but on the other hand a cruiser is supposed to have 10.000-100.000 crewmembers, while i'm certain some rogue traders can afford such ships i doubt that all of them does.
The Rogue Trader RPG provides a list of typical Rogue Trader ships, as might be expected.


3. How common is it for people in the 40k universe to own starships, is it basically unheard of for non imperial official non rogue trader to do so or are there regular traders, is smuggling an issue?

thats all i can think of for now.

cheers
There are Chartist Captains who have charters for a given trade route. They're usually limited to inter-sector travel. Hiring a Navigator isn't cheap, which means those ships have to use calculated jumps, with the usual limit of 5 LY per jump.

Stonerhino
04-02-2013, 18:28
Here is the explanation from lexicanum, which took it from BFG. Basically tau ships do not fully enter the warp, but they do break into it before being hurled back out at incredible speed. In any case we're talking semantics here, we know what was roughly the intention of what stonerhino said about manta's.

"The Tau, because they lack psykers as a race, are incapable of fully entering the warp. However, based on duplicating the warp drive from an unknown alien vessel they have found a way of 'diving' towards the warp, extending the field of their drive into a wing shape designed to hold their vessel in the warp, before being hurled into real space again like a ball held under water and then released. While this is much slower, by a factor of five when compared to Imperial jump speed, it is a lot safer because they do not enter the warp deep enough to become exposed to any of its dangers, and is also much more predictable as their speed works out to a consistent rate. Nevertheless, this limited form of warp travel has resulted in the Tau Empire being closely packed around their home system.2"Here's the actual quote from BFG:


Achieving transition to the Warp required more than technology, it required psychically attuned minds and the Tau race boasted no psykers. Without them to guide the transition no amount of power could breach the dimensional barriers. The best the Tau could do was make a partial transition, forcing themselves into the void that separated Warpspace and real space before they were hurled out again like a ball held under water then released.By creating a special "Field" that could be shaped like a wing the Tau could keep their ships in this "Void between the warp and real space" longer. They never breach the warp barrier and thus never enter the warp at all. Also the newer Tau craft can reach speeds closer to 1/2 standard Imperial warp travel. Of corse the Manta is not one of thses ships.


so millenium falcon or serenty size vessels don't do warp travel in warhammer 40k? If this is for a story or RPG go ahead. There is nothing forbidding one of these ships from existing in 40k. They would just be extremely rare and likely one of kind ships. Because of their sze they would also be extremely limited on how far they can travel. Before needing to restock of their supplies.

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 20:19
mostly I'm just interested, I'm sure I've heard about smuggling in the 40k universe if nothing else in the inquisitor rulebook. but if you have to dock with ships that are that big the likelihood decreases, unless you have a big enough operation to actually own a ship that size.

I was considering a necromunda campaign based on smugglers crews instead of underhive gangs.

Kakapo42
04-02-2013, 22:10
so millenium falcon or serenity size vessels don't do warp travel in warhammer 40k?

As shown with the Manta (approximately the size of either of them), it is possible, but would be rare and very slow over long distances.

quantumcollider
05-02-2013, 01:03
3. How common is it for people in the 40k universe to own starships, is it basically unheard of for non imperial official non rogue trader to do so or are there regular traders, is smuggling an issue?


That's actually a very interesting question. You see, very few Imperial ships are privately owned in the WH40K universe. Even the merchant fleet is part of the Imperial Navy. These merchantmen do not technically own their ship, since these are part of the Navy from the moment they are launched. As such, they can be immediately drafted to operate in war zones, and their captain can be replaced immediately by order of the Navy.

In practise however, these ships operate as regular merchant ships, carrying goods from one system to another. Their captains are so-called 'chartist' captains. Technically employed (but not paid) by the navy, their carry a charter that stipulates the trade routes they may sail. Most charters only allow certain routes, while some rare others allow unlimited access segmentum wide.

Within these limitations, chartist captains are free to trade as they please (though no doubt the Administratum determines part of their cargo as well) and some also get involved in various levels of smuggling.

When one also takes into account the fact what any interstellar vessel is an enormous investment, very few organisations truly have ships of their own (at least legally), only the richest and most influential, like the personal fleets of the Navigator Houses.

[Ref. Battlefleet Koronus]

Sai-Lauren
05-02-2013, 13:50
Lo folks, I have a few questions:

1. how small ships are capapble of warp travel? could say a thunderhawk or aquila be fitted for that purpose?

Personally, I'd say as small as you can get a warp engine, Gellar field generator, power plant, crew habitation, at least three months stores (1 month to system egress, 1 month to get in system at destination, plus warp travel time), controls and intra-system thrusters on. From previous threads, others disagree. ;)

But a Thunderhawk or Aquila, no. They're way too small. Maybe a couple of hundred meters at the effective minimum.



2. What ships does rogue traders use? I foudn a rogue trader cruiser in BFG but on the other hand a cruiser is supposed to have 10.000-100.000 crewmembers, while i'm certain some rogue traders can afford such ships i doubt that all of them does.

Depends on their relative wealth - The Rogue Star novels have Light Cruisers IIRC. Poorer ones may only have a pair of escorts and a freighter as tender, maybe even only an armed freighter if they've lost everything else.



3. How common is it for people in the 40k universe to own starships, is it basically unheard of for non imperial official non rogue trader to do so or are there regular traders, is smuggling an issue?

thats all i can think of for now.

cheers
Personally, I believe that the vast majority are owned by the Imperium itself, then corporations and the Navigator houses - maybe 95% of all warp capable vessels in those three groups alone.

The remaining 5% though, IMO, still numbers a massive number of warp capable vessels of various sizes. ;)

Without a Navigator, you're reduced to shorter distance jumps along well used trade routes, likely in a convoy with a vessel that has a navigator, charging a fee for communicating with the convoy, although you can strike out on your own if you're brave (or greedy) enough.

And yes, smuggling is an issue in the Imperium - guns, drugs, people, xenos items, you name it. That's part of the Arbites and PDF's roles (and the Inquisition to an extent, likely under the Ordo Hereticus and maybe split into some parts of the Ordo Xenos for the Xenos items and some drugs parts), to ensure that things don't get on world that shouldn't be there.

TheDungen
06-02-2013, 05:35
how is military materiel distrubuted through the imperiufm if ships are so rare, worlds like mars and necromunda seems to supply military material to better part of the imperium but the imperial trade fleet seems better at distributing large amounts to few locations than small (well relatively) to many locations.

Sai-Lauren
06-02-2013, 08:38
That's part of the reason I prefer a large amount of smaller ships in addition to the standard super-freighters.

But pretty much any captain who wants to operate in the Imperium will have to abide by a set of rules, one of which will almost certainly be that if an Imperial body tells them they're taking something to a certain world (whether as a contract with payment at the end, or the local navy invokes a clause to temporarily add them to the fleet), they're taking it there, and woe betide them if it arrives even lightly scratched.

m1acca1551
06-02-2013, 10:29
how is military materiel distrubuted through the imperiufm if ships are so rare, worlds like mars and necromunda seems to supply military material to better part of the imperium but the imperial trade fleet seems better at distributing large amounts to few locations than small (well relatively) to many locations.

Ships arent actually rare it's more for the fact that they are already accounted for elsewhere.

Forge worlds are responsible for creating armour and munitions for the imperial army, so where ever the imperial army is located in strenght is where you will find the heaviest distribution of super freighter and trade ships. FW really dont care about the state or demands of local PDF or fringe settlement there job is to arm billions of guardsmen who are on crusade or fighting against serious incursions to imperial territory.

The way the Imperial sectors are worked are basically satalite sectors, each has a Govenor who is responsible for maintaing trade in his own sector and with others, inter sector fleets or those lacking warp drive will simply take 1 worlds good to the capital planet where one can assume that material destined for other sectors would be collected by warp capable ships of the correct tonnage. When goods are moved unlike what we know where you see 1 container ship in the 40k universe a whole fleet would be assembled and then move there goods to another sector.

Rogue traders or groups that would be similar to the east india trading company would have access to vessels ranging from pleasure yachts for minor dispatch through to fully fledged battle ships or cruisers. In safe sectors where the imperial navy is present in large numbers would mean that such convoy protection would be wasted and better used in the more remote and dangerous areas, also would stop the imperial navy from pressing said vessels into active service, something that would cost more than is gained.

Ships that are not warp capable are assigned watch and guard, acting as a minor deterant for any would be pirate and act as warning signal if something big ever happened. Yet the imperium is vast and all we get is a small window to glimpse through which makes the above all conjecture and pure theory, yet i like to think that's i'd be close to the mark. :)

TheDungen
06-02-2013, 12:52
well if you set a certain amount of material toward building ships building them bigger will mean building fewer. thus relatively few compared to how many they could've had they could build small ships like in other sci-fi settings (where everyone and his grandma can own a starship)

Reasonable Commissar
06-02-2013, 12:55
Dont look too indepth at the logistics of things in the 40k setting or it will all start to fall apart and make no sense.

Do not pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

Sai-Lauren
06-02-2013, 14:26
Or ignore what doesn't make sense, and throw in what you need to in order for it to work. :)



Forge worlds are responsible for creating armour and munitions for the imperial army, so where ever the imperial army is located in strenght is where you will find the heaviest distribution of super freighter and trade ships. FW really dont care about the state or demands of local PDF or fringe settlement there job is to arm billions of guardsmen who are on crusade or fighting against serious incursions to imperial territory.

No, they're not. They might make items that go to the munitorium, especially the higher tech or more difficult to produce items (Plasma weapons for example), but that's mostly a form of trade, and they also make other things for the Imperium.

But other worlds make also war materiel - for example, Armageddon makes Chimeras, not all of which go to the Steel Legion, some make it off world and get shipped to other worlds in the Imperium, and the Orlocks on Necromunda have one of the munitorium's lasgun contracts, which they wrested from House Van Saar by blowing up one of their factories.

Some worlds, when a guard founding happens, may effectively import everything, others may produce a varying amount of stuff locally (Tanith combat knives seem to have been locally produced on world rather than simply being "Combat Knife Pattern #37239894-B", and presumably either some of the troopers or the camp followers know how to manufacture new ones to the same design, otherwise, even scavenging from the dead, they'd likely have run out by now anyway, and Catachan regiment blades have that unique, odd thing with the hollow blade containing mercury to add to the impact forces), and only import a small amount (things like lasguns that have to be supplied more generically) and even then, they might get items imported as kits to be completed on world (the Nalwood stocks of the Tanith's lasguns).

Equally, returning to the Navy, Forge Worlds might be the locations of the major shipyards, but that doesn't mean they're the only locations, the Navy would have some of their own of various size in case of problems with the AM (for instance, Battlefleet Gothic mentions a feral world where the population is put to work mining and processing ores over a period of years, for a cruiser that's being built in orbit). The older populated worlds would likely have their own shipyards, and corporations may also have some, licensed for production to some degree by the AM. And of course, every single planet based Marine chapter has their own shipyards, plus organisations like the Inquisition may have some facilities scattered around for their own use as necessary.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-02-2013, 15:29
Not having your own warp capable space ship doesn't mean you can't do smuggling. It would be rather easy to smuggle all sorts of stuff around inside even a small (by imperial standards) space ship, let alone if you have connections with navy captains or rogue traders or anything of that nature. And let's not forget that planets are still planets. There is a crazy amount of smuggling happening in the world today without needing space ships at all.

Sai-Lauren
07-02-2013, 10:47
True, but it does limit you to smuggling in your system - either world to world (if there's more than one populated planet/moon in the system), or meeting up with a warp capable transport at the jump point, picking up cargo and bringing it in system while they return to the warp (and there's probably vessels that do that kind of thing legitimately anyway).

Quite a lot of smuggling today is actually the lower end stuff where they're trying to get around differences in laws and customs rates between countries, say you buy a load of cheap cigarettes or alcohol in one country, (we're talking way about what you're allowed in a duty free allowance ;) ) then try and get it into your own/another country where they're much more expensive thanks to duty rates, either for personal use or to sell on (and individuals do this as well as organised crime).

Wheras most planets in the Imperium are mono-cultures, and once it's on world, you've only got the problems of moving it as necessary within the jurisdiction, not crossing from one jurisdiction to another. About the only on-planet "smuggling" would be things like breaking an enforced quarantine or security cordon.

Although another alternative is that there's warp capable vessels that can pick up non-warp capable vessels and transport them from world to world, either on a circuit or a simple return route (think of aircraft - whilst most fly A-B-A..., some, especially in the US, fly A-B-C-D-E-A, all depending on what the available routes are and the customer demand), for a fee - from single vessel tugs to multi-vessel ferries.

Lothlanathorian
07-02-2013, 14:21
True, but it does limit you to smuggling in your system - either world to world (if there's more than one populated planet/moon in the system), or meeting up with a warp capable transport at the jump point, picking up cargo and bringing it in system while they return to the warp (and there's probably vessels that do that kind of thing legitimately anyway).

Just because some vessels do this legitimately doesn't mean that there isn't stuff that is illegal in the system that they are dropping off. Also, one of the ways I would imagine it, a ship could come in-system from the Warp with illicit cargo and then transfer it to a smaller vessel (the smuggler) in order to not get caught with it themselves/get it to their buyer before they have to deal with Imperial authorities in-system.

Quite a lot of smuggling today is actually the lower end stuff where they're trying to get around differences in laws and customs rates between countries, say you buy a load of cheap cigarettes or alcohol in one country, (we're talking way about what you're allowed in a duty free allowance ;) ) then try and get it into your own/another country where they're much more expensive thanks to duty rates, either for personal use or to sell on (and individuals do this as well as organised crime).

Random factoid: 1 in 10 cigarettes sold in the US today is a counterfeit manufactured in China. I can picture this kind of thing happening on many Imperial worlds, cheap knock-offs that are sold as the original, etc. It's safe to say that, future or not, organised crime will find a way :p

Wheras most planets in the Imperium are mono-cultures, and once it's on world, you've only got the problems of moving it as necessary within the jurisdiction, not crossing from one jurisdiction to another. About the only on-planet "smuggling" would be things like breaking an enforced quarantine or security cordon.

Planetside, it is possible that, depending on the culture of the planet, some items could be illegal for anyone not considered a noble or part of whatever form of aristocracy is in place. Taking items for 'redistribution' would require smuggling planetside. That's just me pulling a possibility out of my bum, though, to say 'it's a big galaxy, there's a chance.'

Although another alternative is that there's warp capable vessels that can pick up non-warp capable vessels and transport them from world to world, either on a circuit or a simple return route (think of aircraft - whilst most fly A-B-A..., some, especially in the US, fly A-B-C-D-E-A, all depending on what the available routes are and the customer demand), for a fee - from single vessel tugs to multi-vessel ferries.

This here is also what I was thinking of. A 'ferry vessel' that carries several smaller, non-Warp capable vessels to other systems.

My thoughts in red above.

Also, there may be stuff on a planet that isn't supposed to be taken off or goods that are stolen (such as items meant for a tithe but that are going to an arms dealer, instead) being smuggled off planet and to ships waiting at the edge of the system to pick up and take away for 'redistribution' elsewhere. Also, the first Ravenor book gives us a good example with that Chaos-tainted glass shard drug and the first Eisenhorn book gives us some others with xeno crops being smuggled in as well as xeno weapons.

TheDungen
07-02-2013, 17:21
yeah but its still just logistics within a system with 5+ lightyears to the next one. the thing is that interstellar travel is very cumbersome even at close to lights speed if yoiu have no ftl capabilty and quite frankly not worth it if there is ftl capability in the universe.

oh and most system will have 1 or 2 max 3 planets within the biospehere. and then you have to hope that they're terrestrial planets.

short range warp cores that could operate without navigators could solve the logistics issue. the large ships would function like the mass relays in mass effect and then you go on to use you own ftl capability to travel in the local region.

Lothlanathorian
07-02-2013, 18:30
oh and most system will have 1 or 2 max 3 planets within the biospehere. and then you have to hope that they're terrestrial planets.

Yes, because hive cities aren't a thing and the Imperium hasn't built places to live on places like the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, so, naturally, they are limited to a certain number of planets.

Also, depending on the star, it's size, age, etc., the number of planets in orbit around it and their size, there could be well over three planets within an existing biosphere, anyway. And that's before they are terraformed or just declared a 'death world' and settled anyway.

A great in-universe example of planets that are settled and outside of the biosphere is the Armageddon system. Something like every planet in that system is inhabited. Not necessarily by civilian populations, but, at least have military/naval installations.

daveNYC
07-02-2013, 21:20
Wasn't the ship used by the assassins in Nemesis rather small?

Kaldor Draigo
07-02-2013, 22:20
There was a ship mentioned in one of the Grey Knight novels (the first one, I think) about an Inquisitor sending a messenger by ship, using "the smallest warp capable ship in the Imperium" which was, if I recall correctly, about the size of a Thunderhawk and had only two crew: the pilot and navigator.

I'm not sure if I'm remembering that right.

TheDungen
08-02-2013, 07:46
seems legit after all assassins need to be able to move unseen.

Sai-Lauren
08-02-2013, 09:02
Yes, because hive cities aren't a thing and the Imperium hasn't built places to live on places like the moons of Jupiter and Saturn, so, naturally, they are limited to a certain number of planets.

Also, depending on the star, it's size, age, etc., the number of planets in orbit around it and their size, there could be well over three planets within an existing biosphere, anyway. And that's before they are terraformed or just declared a 'death world' and settled anyway.

A great in-universe example of planets that are settled and outside of the biosphere is the Armageddon system. Something like every planet in that system is inhabited. Not necessarily by civilian populations, but, at least have military/naval installations.
Well, they are limited, and they aren't limited. :)

In terms of actual colonisable worlds, Humans will tend to restrict themselves to a certain category - Earth-like. I.e, liquid water, gravity of around 1G, atmospheric oxygen and so on. And you only get those in the life zone of the star - you might potentially get more than one, but they're likely going to be in non-optimal orbits due to the processes of material aggregation during planetary formation pretty much sweeping the orbits clean (*).

However, if a world/system justifies non-optimal colonisation for some reason (available mineral resources, positioning of defences and so on), then they will build supporting systems to support that, such as pressurised habitation, gravity boosters or suppressors and possibly bio-enhancements for the populations of worlds that are borderline. Plus certain bodies might want to put facilities in system so they're close, but separated from the population, or even hidden in a populated system to cover transit to and from those facilities.

And, there's always the chance that the colonisation vessel failed, and they had to land on a certain particularly nasty planet (IMO, why worlds like Fenris got colonised, as no one in their right mind would voluntarily want to live there), or it was simply a land-grab by a corporation or government millenia ago, or the surveyors got it wrong, and the initial colony was just dropped there because someone said they had to be there, no matter what (which may be the case for Imperial-era colonisation). And some worlds may be similar to Pandora from Borderlands, idyllic when initially colonised, but hell once the centuries long season changes.

So basically, some systems might only have a single colonised world, others may have multiple colonised worlds, plus outputs on planets, moons, asteroids and constructed orbital stations throughout the system, with multiple governors (which is likely where intra-system smuggling would be really rife :)).

(*) - This of course excludes rogue planets that have been knocked out of their original orbits into others, which may not be very pleasant places to try and colonise anyway, and things like system engineering like the Eldar could do in their prime, such as opening warp holes between a planet in a non-optimal orbit and an optimal one, then letting the planet pass through.

TheDungen
08-02-2013, 13:15
i think we need to take into account that the initial human colonization of the galaxy had almost limiless recources, they had technology beyond anythign the imperium has and manpower that was ever growing with every world they claimed gave them more recources.

people may well have settled on deathworlds intentionally thinkign they had the recources andmanpower to tame the worlds. and if the human expansion had not come to halt they propably would have had. (quite why they didnt just do an exterminatus and then re-terraformed the planet i cannot say)

Sai-Lauren
08-02-2013, 15:45
That's where I disagree.

Pre-warp age, you're into generation ships, the majority of which will be mostly composed of facilities to grow plants, reprocess wastes and so on, not carry cargo. Small groups of people (limited by life support during the trip) and minimal resources, which would be centuries old when they get to wherever they're going (and without stasis, things like batteries, for example, would become useless).

Warp-age, the Navigators are effectively in a sellers market, so they can charge what they want. Vessels are very expensive, so it's pretty much only governments and corporations that can afford the outlay, they're also limited in what they can afford to send, and they're targetting where to go to maximise the returns. Other groups, like scientific think-tanks and groups fleeing persecution would also found colonies, but in much, much smaller numbers, and the latter would almost certainly have to sell off nearly everything both to afford the transport and fit into the vessel.

And I assume STC was somewhere in the mix - as I've said before on other threads, I don't subscribe to the "ultra-tech, super-massive library of everything" idea, more that it's a small and fairly cheap system to give relatively uneducated people what they need to survive (housing, power systems, waste processing, basic weapons for defence against predators and for hunting) until the colony's productive enough to justify sending ships to pick up the produce and bring in higher tech/luxury items. In fact, far from it being the be all and end all of technology as it is viewed in the 41st millenium, it may be seen by most people contemperary with it as a joke, something cheap, nasty, and what you use only if you can't afford something better.

What's classed as STC in the 41st millenium is really a combination of recovered plans from a particular build that happened to be useful in a variety of conditions (as humans would tend to colonise similar worlds, and have similar needs on each of them), and modular structures being put together in ways they might not have been designed to (such as plasma weapons, likely an STC plasma bottle, an STC plasma conduit and an STC plasma reactor injector, all wrapped up in a heavy welder body and given the cooling system off a small power plant, all done as an initially ad-hoc design by some colonist who needed a plasma projector for some reason - whether that's a heaviily armoured alien attack or simply to punch big holes through rock quickly).

If it was truly advanced, then nearly every single colonisation would have been robots sent ahead to build infrastructure, then the colonists arriving - with no need for STC, no worlds reverting to barbarism and so on.

Ok, some would have been people choosing to colonise a world because of the challenge, but they'd be an extremely small percentage of the total.

As for why a world like Catachan would be colonised, think of the potential for new pharmaceuticals from the native flora and fauna. One major disease cure would likely pay for twenty Catachan colonies.

Lothlanathorian
09-02-2013, 05:33
Navigators were designed in a post-scarcity, technologically advanced age. Being in a seller's market when monetary concerns mean nothing isn't of much use.

Reasonable Commissar
09-02-2013, 08:18
Dont forget as well during the Dark Age humans had a lot of terraforming tech so could colonise otherwise uninhabitable worlds. Death Worlds could be those worlds which hadnt finished being terraformed or hadnt got around to it yet.

Humans did use robots until they went all evil and tried to kill us all (Iron Men) but this was toward the end of the Dark Age which lasted for several millenia. No working STC has been found (except in a book) only the print outs have been. The STC were able to provide plans and instructions to build pretty much anything from local resources. It was kind of a "dummies guide to" building pretty much anything.

TheDungen
09-02-2013, 14:21
i always thought the STC was an artificial intelligence capable of doing humanities engineering problems for them. the templates we find are constructions that they have made and that have survived.

El_Machinae
09-02-2013, 17:22
Were Navigators from the Golden Age? Are they part of what allowed humanity to spread? I always thought the spread was allowed through high-technology

Lothlanathorian
09-02-2013, 18:36
Technically, it was high technology. The Navigator gene was artificially created in the Golden Age.

TheDungen
10-02-2013, 11:02
oh why didn't they just use computers to plot warp jumps? i know that the imperium is really scared of machines that think but the golden age humans got to have had better ways to deal with this.

Lothlanathorian
10-02-2013, 11:15
Because an entire dimension that ignores physics where storms can knock forward or backwards in time and ending up way off course isn't uncommon on a good day, plotting a course with a computer doesn't really help. Also, looking into the Warp tends to drive people insane and melt their brains unless they are purpose built to do so.

Palvinore
10-02-2013, 11:37
oh why didn't they just use computers to plot warp jumps? i know that the imperium is really scared of machines that think but the golden age humans got to have had better ways to deal with this.

They can and did so before Navigators. Problem is these jumps are only reliable over a short distance, requiring the ship to keep popping out back into reality, check its bearings, and jump again. Wasteful in time, effort, and power. Makes it difficult to have large scale political units with slow travel like this. The old Traveller RPG had a method of repeated jumping that was similar. If you are a pirate or merchant that hangs around the same local area then this might be acceptable.

El_Machinae
10-02-2013, 12:09
Technically, it was high technology. The Navigator gene was artificially created in the Golden Age.

How do we know that?

Lothlanathorian
10-02-2013, 12:12
Oh, dear. This is a case of 'I read it in a book :shifty:' :( Hopefully someone else shows up who knows where this was written. It would have had to be something from 2nd Edition or earlier.

TheDungen
10-02-2013, 19:20
well enough ships travelling with short jumps would still be more effective if there was a shortage of navigators.

Lord Damocles
10-02-2013, 20:57
The 6th edition Rulebook implies a level of engineering of the Navigator gene (pg.167), under 'Age of Technology':

'Soon after, Mankind embarked upon the discovery, development and cultivation of the human Navigator gene, a controlled mutation that allowed human pilots to make longer warp jumps than previously thought possible. Navigator families, initially controlled by industrial and trade cartels, became individual forces in their own right by M19. By M20, humanity had proliferated and settled many of the countless star systems.'


The Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Navigator) article on Navigators cites Galaxy in Flames, pg.180 as reference for:
'It is known that their origins go back to the Dark Age of Technology in roughly M22, to a time of genetic experimentation when many kinds of mutants were engineered to fulfil roles envisaged by their creators.'

Vaulkhar
10-02-2013, 21:58
It's also worth noting that the Navigator gene is something beyond recessive (Genetic Rights Management?) - breeding a Navigator and a conventional human never results in a Navigator.

Sai-Lauren
11-02-2013, 08:35
Back in RT, the emergence of the Navigator gene was a spontaneous event (same as the emergence of Psykers in the human populace), not something artificially generated. The "cultivation" could simply mean the inbreeding that's gone on between the various navigator houses, to preserve both their power and their abilities.

And yes, even in the Golden Age of humanity, with limitless resources, if you've got a good or service that no one else can provide, and there's a demand for it, you can charge whatever you want. The Navigator Houses are insanely wealthy (and some of the more heavily inbred and mutated Navigators are just insane).

And Terraforming? Expensive, time consuming, controlled by the AM, not guaranteed to be successful, and still only able to change certain things about the world in question (IIRC, terraforming Mars is pretty much a waste of time over the long term, because it hasn't got the gravity to hold an Oxygen atmosphere in place, so eventually it'll just bleed off into space - the best options would be young proto-Earths, those with sufficent mass, but still in their methane/etc atmospheres phase).

Sorry, but I think my point about a limited number of ideal colonisable worlds still stands :), but remember, I did also say that if circumstances demand it, they will spend the resources to colonise non-ideal worlds.

TheDungen
11-02-2013, 11:47
pretty sure the am wasn't around back then, why would anyone worship machines back when they knew how things actually worked?

quantumcollider
13-02-2013, 12:33
pretty sure the am wasn't around back then, why would anyone worship machines back when they knew how things actually worked?

Probably not in its current form, no. But the 3rd edition rulebook did mention that the Adeptus Mechanicus had its roots in the Dark Age of Technology. The path between being obsessed with technology and worshipping technology might not be so long.

El_Machinae
13-02-2013, 12:52
That would've either happened due to a loss of knowledge (and hence ritualization - how many times have you begged your computer to work?) or due to some type of transhumanist AI event, where the abilities of a select few were vastly expanded and they then engaged in cult-building in order to cement their powerbase.

quantumcollider
13-02-2013, 13:17
That would've either happened due to a loss of knowledge (and hence ritualization - how many times have you begged your computer to work?) or due to some type of transhumanist AI event, where the abilities of a select few were vastly expanded and they then engaged in cult-building in order to cement their powerbase.

Not necessarily. It only requires that people would start to believe in the utter superiority of technology, even if they created it themselves.

And especially older background material seems to hint to this having happened. Newer background material calls the Age of Technology a golden age, but in the 3rd edition rulebook edition rulebook called it a 'Dark Age', where technology replaced humanity itself as the dominant force.

In contrast, the current Imperium respects the role of technology in its society, but emphasises human blood and faith as the dominant power in the universe.

TheDungen
13-02-2013, 17:12
well its the difference between science and technology i guess.

Sai-Lauren
14-02-2013, 09:04
That would've either happened due to a loss of knowledge (and hence ritualization - how many times have you begged your computer to work?) or due to some type of transhumanist AI event, where the abilities of a select few were vastly expanded and they then engaged in cult-building in order to cement their powerbase.
I personally have the origin of the Cult Mechanicus as simply a way of the proto-AM both staying neutral to keep out of the Age of Strife, and making nice profits by dealing arms and other materiel to all sides equally. :)

It just became the way they do things over time as the junior members who believed it moved up into more senior ranks and enforced it, which coupled with the loss of some knowledge and the hoarding of other information, gets us to where they are in the game.

El_Machinae
15-02-2013, 10:27
Yeah, it could easily have been a cult "front" designed to create a monopoly on the knowledge that then grew.

Tastyfish
15-02-2013, 15:58
The organisation might have it's roots in the Dark Age, as a cartel on Mars where the inner workings of certain technologies were restricted to higher ranking members of the organisation (more as trade secrets than the current mysteries) but pretty sure the religious elements came during the Age of Strife once the terraforming of Mars was undone by excessive pollution - technology becomes life when you're relying on a few malfunctioning emergency survival bunkers in the middle of a polluted desert.