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xxslayerxx
03-02-2013, 22:28
So ive been thinking, with the changes with the new book, how are people going to field their warriors? Before i used to have huge units of 24 chaos warrios, but now im not sure whther its better to make them smaller? maybe units of 18 ? Im not sure really stuck at the moment, So would like to know how everybody is going to field them? How deep? How wide? How many? thanx :)

lordlorien
04-02-2013, 01:26
I fielded em at 18 (6wide 3deep) with the old book and will stay at that size. The sword/board MoT ones are slightly cheaper now, while my halberd MoK ones are a little more expensive. 18 seemed a good size so far and still seems to me.


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Lord Solar Plexus
04-02-2013, 06:23
As with everything, it does depend a bit on who you fight and of course the point level. Having a big, solid unit is good for points denial, having several opens up tactical options...although taking 18 instead of 24 doesn't give you a second unit of course. At the end of the day, both 18 and 24 are good unit sizes. You might want to avoid fighting some units with the smaller one (evidently) but that's about it.

Danny76
04-02-2013, 11:09
What about only 15 and 5 wide. For HWS Tzeentch Warriors. Or Nurgle
Any good for size?

Lord Solar Plexus
04-02-2013, 12:12
Sure, that's still a decent block that will take some effort to get points from, it just doesn't serve a huge offensive role.

xxslayerxx
04-02-2013, 12:32
soooo after looking what everybodys posted i decided that im going to try and have units of 16, although i think i am going to run them 8 wide...simply for the offensive power, so i can get more attacks out of them. in 1500 i have two units of 16 with MoN, one unit with halberds and one unit with additional hand weapons, 4 skullcrushers, a kitted out nurgle lord and festus, sounds decent or? (im still stuck about MoK, not sure if i want to put it on my warrios with halberds...hmmm)

lordlorien
04-02-2013, 13:34
In think 8 is too wide in many cases. You will not get em all into base conntact against 5x20mm bases. If my math doesnt cheat me it is 6x25 mm max frontage to hit 5x20mm bases and that is when you are able to hit the enemy head on. So basically you make the unit more unwieldy and do not get a lot out of it. It is something else when you charge into hordes. There all 16 would get to attack. Do not forget to take musician I would suggest. With musician you can always swift reform for some better matches.

I kinda might get 2x 15 units of warriors too since the points in my list are kinda short. 2x15 Nurgle or Tzeentch with sword and board for anvil units. Each flanked by a core chariot for the scare factor ;). That ish 800ish points in core and good for all games I play. After putting hounds in though it is already lotsa core units with points that are missing in the other sections. Maybe in 3k games. So maybe 1 bigger anvil ... 18-24 again with the 2 chariots in the 2000-2500 point reach.

bambamBIGILO
04-02-2013, 13:54
So far for me I run 2 blocks of 18. The standard MoT with shield. The other I'm a nurgle fan. I used to run chosen MoN with a halbergs and rage banner but I downgraded them to reg warriors.

I had a game on sat against VC. Not withstanding I lost, but that was more because I made some mistakes. And my lvl 4 turned into a lvl 2 turn 2. Both blocks had to be killed to a man. They preformed very well at 18. The kill power of the nurgle was good despite being flanked by a black knight bus with a choppy vamp ( st 6 1+save and fury). And about 40 zombies pinning them from the front.

Both units did there jobs well, I don't think I would need more warriors. They killed a vargiest( that screamed 6 of my knights off in one turn ouch) and around 80 zombies after failing 2 fear checks in 4 turns.

I think that MoK is still good but I think skullcrushers or MoK knights with rage banner should be your choppy units so I'm fielding my warriors with a more survivable thought process

I think running warriors units the same as you would last book is still the best option. Whatever you were doing before will still work and with what you save on the MoT you spend on Halbergs so it's pretty much the same.

lordlorien
04-02-2013, 14:11
I think that MoK is still good but I think skullcrushers or MoK knights with rage banner should be your choppy units so I'm fielding my warriors with a more survivable thought process.

I think running warriors units the same as you would last book is still the best option. Whatever you were doing before will still work and with what you save on the MoT you spend on Halbergs so it's pretty much the same.

Yup well phrased and pretty much my opinion, too ;). For killiness in larger battles 2500-3000 I hope to be able to field 5 Crushers with BSB (3x2) and 6 Dragon Ogres (3x2). Both blocks have plenty of wounds, hurt like a truck in the face and should keep the enemy quite busy. So warriors mainly for tanking a block of troops and babysit a charater.

Danny76
04-02-2013, 15:45
So in a 1000 point list. Do you think 2 units of 15 would suit, I'm thinking one Nurgle one Tzeentch.
Probably have 3 Dragon Ogres in there and a Caster (Nurgle, maybe Tzeentch, but probably Nurgle).
Depending on items, probably nearing 1000..

bambamBIGILO
04-02-2013, 17:14
@danny76 that would work just fine running them 5x3. I would consider 3 skullcrushers instead of dragon ogres. Obviously that depends on your budget and what you have. The crushers with banner and mus and wpn upgrade are superb for under 250 (have to look at my book not on me)

Another note: not putting a champ in skullcrushers is my standard as they can't be challenged out. Situational but Very handy against undead as your getting more kills out of it.

Danny76
04-02-2013, 19:25
Yeah they do look to be really good, I just kind of liked the look of the dragon ogres and wanted to start with them, then add in the Crushers at the 2k point etc..

Gratan
04-02-2013, 19:50
My Warriors will continue at 18 models each. I like the 6x3 blocks.

My Marauders will probably drop down to 24 models (6x4) from 30 (6x5)

Knights will remain at 10 (5x2)

My Chaos Ogres with GWs will be 6 (3x2)

My Skullcrushers will probably vacillate between 3 and 6, depending on points.

Warhounds will remain in blocks of 10.

xxslayerxx
04-02-2013, 19:52
@gratan how many points is that for? sounds like a decent list

Gratan
04-02-2013, 20:10
@gratan how many points is that for? sounds like a decent list

I'm still trying to work that out lol!

I have about 4,000 points in troops alone...

List building is the one problem I have with minis games...

xxslayerxx
04-02-2013, 20:18
yh i have about 2000 points of core alone, i do love heavy cavalry though, Jugger knights are by far my fav :) how do u mark ur warriors? is it still ok for the army to be themed or is that not a competative build?

wargame_insomniac
04-02-2013, 21:08
The plus side of 18 WoC 6 wide & 3 deep is that inner troops on 4 25mm bases.I.e. 100mm wide.the width of 5 20mm bases. I, e. The standard width most units. That means all of front rank of WoC can fight at full attacks.

So at least

wargame_insomniac
04-02-2013, 21:09
The plus side of 18 WoC 6 wide & 3 deep is that inner troops on 4 25mm bases.I.e. 100mm wide.the width of 5 20mm bases. I, e. The standard width most units. That means all of front rank of WoC can fight at full attacks.

So at least

Icarus81
05-02-2013, 00:26
The plus side of 18 WoC 6 wide & 3 deep is that inner troops on 4 25mm bases.I.e. 100mm wide.the width of 5 20mm bases. I, e. The standard width most units. That means all of front rank of WoC can fight at full attacks.

So at least

Increasing your width to 6 adds 3 attacks for your opponent at a minimum. If you want to be an anvil stay at 5.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-02-2013, 06:31
Increasing your width to 6 adds 3 attacks for your opponent at a minimum. If you want to be an anvil stay at 5.

The standard unit he is talking about - a bus - has 10-11 attacks regardless of your width. Playing them as an anvil bus is problematic anyways IMO. The assumption here is that you think you cannot defeat the enemy unit. Therefore it follows that it is a strong unit, and there is often little reason to field such units not in horde. If this is so - say, a White Lion, Bloodletter or BO horde -, you're losing proportionally more attacks and will only lose by more. Since Warrior units rarely have enough ranks for steadfast, losing by more isn't a good idea. Either flee or go wide to take as many with you as you can.

Coldblood666
05-02-2013, 07:25
I like to use 1 unit of 24 warriors with ahw's and 2 units of 18 with shields

Havock
05-02-2013, 13:44
The standard unit he is talking about - a bus - has 10-11 attacks regardless of your width. Playing them as an anvil bus is problematic anyways IMO. The assumption here is that you think you cannot defeat the enemy unit. Therefore it follows that it is a strong unit, and there is often little reason to field such units not in horde. If this is so - say, a White Lion, Bloodletter or BO horde -, you're losing proportionally more attacks and will only lose by more. Since Warrior units rarely have enough ranks for steadfast, losing by more isn't a good idea. Either flee or go wide to take as many with you as you can.

True, it also works as a deterrent; either they kill your unit badly, or you kill theirs badly.

If you want to brick take Tzeentch sword and board warriors.

Lex
05-02-2013, 14:15
39 w/ Halberds + Festus :D

bambamBIGILO
05-02-2013, 15:17
You can always go for a 24+ unit of MoT warriors and just augment with a lvl 4 on shadow. Mindrazor is always an option, especially useful with the new familiar giving you 5 spells

N1AK
06-02-2013, 12:51
So ive been thinking, with the changes with the new book, how are people going to field their warriors? Before i used to have huge units of 24 chaos warrios, but now im not sure whther its better to make them smaller? maybe units of 18 ? Im not sure really stuck at the moment, So would like to know how everybody is going to field them? How deep? How wide? How many? thanx :)

I'm strongly leaning towards small wide units for example 14 in 7x2. That's 36 attacks from a MoK additional hand weapon unit. The only thing Warriors have going for them is damage potential so I intend to maximise it as far as possible. Sure it won't break steadfast (but it wouldn't any way against 30+ model units) but it gives us more units and stops opponents getting a big lump of points from one devastating charge. Our high initiative means that even if the small unit gets smashed up by, for example, an Ironguts unit it will still get to inflict considerable damage first making them more vulnerable to counter-charges etc.

N1AK
06-02-2013, 13:01
What I am wondering is how people intend to handle big blocks now that considerable ranks is very hard to come by. I'm seriously considering running a list with no more than 2 ranks in any unit. Obviously WoC can generate crazy combat res by kills but ideally we wouldn't be locking ourselves in long combats where we get worn down. So what options do we have?
1/ Treason and other measures that make them more likely to fail the steadfast/stubborn break test.
2/ Multi-rank units like cheap Marauders (or even hounds)
3/ Accept that we're going to have to grind and just add as much killing potential as possible to make it quick
Other thoughts?

Lord Solar Plexus
06-02-2013, 13:35
Kill them all?

Or kill just one, namely a leader. Steadfast 5, 6, 7 isn't so hot. What's more, IME ranks don't stay the same until all eternity.

ThomThomKC
06-02-2013, 17:01
I personally run nothing but sword and board for my warriors. My sweet spot is 25 5x5 but won't take less than 20 5x4. I'm more about suriviability than creating a blender. With the old book I always ran Tzch. With the new book I'll be running Nurgle. It's possible due to the change in the amount of hits and wounds that Nurgle takes I could possibly diviate from my standard but I think it will probably all end up being about the same in the long run.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-02-2013, 17:37
Nurgle only suffers less casualties in combat. Shooting and magic can easily tip the scales.

ThomThomKC
06-02-2013, 17:51
Touche. Which is why we will see how all things considered may or may not change things.

N1AK
07-02-2013, 08:54
Kill them all?

Or kill just one, namely a leader. Steadfast 5, 6, 7 isn't so hot. What's more, IME ranks don't stay the same until all eternity.

Killing them all is a pretty inefficient strategy, it takes rounds and grinds our numbers and thus combat potential down. It's also a pretty obvious one and something I'd already explicitly mentioned so the question mark and point in general are redundant.

Also you're either playing with chumps or making another virtually redundant point about just killing the leader. Yes removing the generals LD, the BSB re-roll etc from a unit that is taking tests is a good idea but it isn't even close to a tactic. How many LD 5,6,7 Hordes do you see about these days especially without either, or both, re-rolls or inspiring presence. Beyond which yet again I already brought up the idea of measures to make them more likely to fail.

It's not my intention to be argumentative; however your post came across as condescending (I think I and most of the viewers are more than aware that ranks can be removed, even if you aren't aware that we are) and was effectively devoid of any actual content.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-02-2013, 11:10
Killing them all is a pretty efficient approach with WoC I've found but YMMV because it will remove ranks and units won't be steadfast all game long if hit hard enough. Believe me, I also play Empire and have seen it happen often enough. Time and attrition are not problematic as long as you come out the winner and get the VP's. Of course you are right, being tarpitted and suffering a flank charge is not good but that's where chaff and tactics and other units come in.

The point and phrasing about "just" killing the leader was meant as an opposite to "all". A stylistic device, if you will, with no condesencion intended, and at least partly a more concrete thought on said measures. Why is this not a tactic? It's as much a tactic as taking Marauders or casting a spell? What's more, you never even mentioned you were looking for tactics only. You said options or ways to handle them.

Without the Ld bubbles, I see heaps of Ld 7 or lower around - my Marauders, my State Troops, Skaven, Vampire units, Ogres, you name it. After all, even Ld 8 was and is seen by many as a weakness, and how many Ld 8 hordes do you see around?

The gist of it is that I see most hordes being taken in units of 40, sometimes 50, and then you have the last two big offenders, ie. Slaves and Goblins. Against the former, 40+ often high-calibre attacks will take care of steadfast, obvious or not; against the other two, a Hellcannon, multiple flamers OR even more attacks in the form of multicharges can help.

lordlorien
07-02-2013, 17:43
Basically kill them all was my approach in the last army book. The new one seems to go well with it, too. Combicharges with chariots (which still hurt the enemy hard after initial charge compared with most other chariots) or highly mobile flank support charges by chimera, DP or whatever will delete many a unit pretty fast. I really want to see (and will soon) horde units being charged by 6 SC head on and a flying monster into the flank / back... I do not think much will survive that and at the latest a round further on you should be free for the next combats.

Well it didn't work too well against lizzys I have to admit but thats mainly because the stupid slan/slans faceroll my army before it gets in combat. But hopefully that sillyness will soon end too.
*Prays to Khorne for cutting those cupped hands off and take their becalming cogitation out of their fat heads*

Gromdal
13-02-2013, 20:12
6*3, 5*4, 6*4 mon with grt weps is my standard

Doommasters
14-02-2013, 01:45
The only way I can see small MSU units working is with MoK as you get so many attacks that hit first. FOr this to work you really need to combo charge or you may lose combat and lose frenzy.....

Small units of anything else is too risky due to the fact that if you fluff attacks you will lose to CR. Sure Nurgle might not lose as many units but you need kills to even out the steadfast ranks.

If there is a way to make chariots work in core then that might be a better option than warriors?

Sarael
14-02-2013, 06:22
6 wide is standard for small units because that maximizes contact against a 5 wide 20mm infantry unit. After that it's just ranks. 10 wide obviously for hordes. CW wants to win through killing, not static CR, so ranks are less important to them than killing power.

lamo
14-02-2013, 11:30
I'm going to agree with whoever said MSU. Before warriors were cheap enough and became cheaper per man(marks were paid for on the whole unit at once) now i would say units of 10-14 with additional hand weapons and nurgle would be the way I'd run them. cheap enough where if they are focused down slogging across the board and aren't outrageously expensive. also in combat against ws5< they are just 5-15% less survivable than sword and board tzeentch warriors while being 25-50% more killy. Also it allows them to have as many attacks as the tzeentch warriors even when they are at half strength(two ranks). Finally if mindrazor gets dropped on the unit its also much more effective.

Even though all this is on the side of the nurgle warriors.............I personally wont be using any warriors at all. The chariots are much more effective as they get into combat quickly and having one additional rank will be negligible. 3-4x charriots and a bunch of re directors will fill up core. Also this would allow me not to have to take the obligatory shadow sorcerer and rather take lore of nurgle or metal. (metal being very useful since it deals with opposing monstrous cav/ high armor which is the weakness of the new WoC imo....and final transmutation is still pretty amazing). I kind of wish they left us a unit that could rank up well but with the insane point increase to marauders and slight increase to warriors... its tough to justify.

my .02
~lamo