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Paddy
04-02-2013, 11:27
Loyalists or traitors, which legion would be largest if "reformed" (ie. subsequent foundings/breakaway warbands reunited under their original banner).

Knee-jerk response is the smurfs, but I'm not 100%...

quantumcollider
04-02-2013, 12:12
Well, 3/5 of all loyalist Space Marines come from Guilliman's geneseed, so it is more than likely the Ultramarine legion would indeed be largest by far.

nedius
04-02-2013, 16:52
Imperial Fists may be in with a shout.

And then it would really be the Black Templar's Legion. According to Lexicanum, it is suspected that there are several thousand companies of Black Templars, and given how secretly they keep their numbers, it's possible that even those companies far exceed those of other chapters in size (as in possibly being much more than 100 marines).

if 3/5 of the marine chapters are UM and their successors, that would mean 600,000 Ultras.

There would need to be 6000 companies of Black Templars to match that - although that is possible within the 'several thousand companies' theory.

Nazguire
04-02-2013, 17:04
I'm pretty sure that the Black Templars Codex mentions that there could be several thousand Black Templars, not several thousand Companies. That'd be obscenely large.

viv714r
04-02-2013, 17:51
It's several thousand Black Templar marines, not companies. Also, they're not secretive, it's just the fact that they are constantly crusading with high numbers of recruits and losses. As for the others, the DA are all but Legion building and the BA have a good few kicking around. But who would be the smallest? Wolves or the Istvaan Legions?

SomeRandomEvilGuy
04-02-2013, 18:00
But who would be the smallest? Wolves or the Istvaan Legions?

The Space Wolves. Their numbers might be a bit larger than the average Chapter, but they don't have any successors and they all come from one Death World.

Rogue Star
04-02-2013, 18:02
Imperial Fists may be in with a shout.

And then it would really be the Black Templar's Legion. According to Lexicanum, it is suspected that there are several thousand companies of Black Templars, and given how secretly they keep their numbers, it's possible that even those companies far exceed those of other chapters in size (as in possibly being much more than 100 marines).

if 3/5 of the marine chapters are UM and their successors, that would mean 600,000 Ultras.

There would need to be 6000 companies of Black Templars to match that - although that is possible within the 'several thousand companies' theory.

You exaggerate the numbers a little. The exact quote is they could be "as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren, in total".

Veteran Sergeant
04-02-2013, 18:09
Yeah, 600,000-650,000 Ultramarines take that prize, handily.

And yeah, the Black Templars are measured in several thousand Marines. Not several thousand companies, lol.

Space Wolves would definitely be the smallest, by a fairly large margin, since they have no successors.

viv714r
04-02-2013, 18:11
The Space Wolves. Their numbers might be a bit larger than the average Chapter, but they don't have any successors and they all come from one Death World.
I'm not sure if Salamders have a successor or not, maybe the Firedrakes? I'm not sure.

Inquisitor Engel
04-02-2013, 18:23
There's also the question of which successor Chapters would actually fall in line with their First Founding parent...

The bearded one
04-02-2013, 18:27
for the chance to be a true ultramarine? All of them, obviously ;)

nedius
04-02-2013, 18:57
You exaggerate the numbers a little. The exact quote is they could be "as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren, in total".

Not me. Got that number off Lexicanum.

Grit
04-02-2013, 19:12
I'm not sure if Salamders have a successor or not, maybe the Firedrakes? I'm not sure.

Firedrakes are the 1st Company not a successor.

its hinted that the Black Dragons,Storm Giants are from Salamander geneseed though i believe not 100%

OuroborosTriumphant
04-02-2013, 19:25
Among the loyalists, Ultramarine-successors probably outnumber the rest put together.

Among the traitors, it depends how you count them. Lots more use of stolen geneseed among the traitor marines. Is a marine who was created from a lifelong Chaos worshiper and has served as a member of the Black Legion for centuries counted as an Ultramarine here just because the Black Legion intercepted a geneseed tithe from an Ultramarine successor immediately before creating him?

Given how fluid allegiances can be in the Eye, adding every living Chaos Marine who's ever painted his armour black and sworn himself to Abaddon's service together might total more than the Ultramarines and their successors, but the majority of those wouldn't carry Horus' geneseed.

TheDungen
04-02-2013, 20:12
yeah but ultramarines also have the least influence over their own sucessors.

Ventos Mustel
04-02-2013, 23:45
Arent the Space Wolf Great Companies each at around chapter strength? That would put them at 10-12 thousand marines

Veteran Sergeant
05-02-2013, 00:05
yeah but ultramarines also have the least influence over their own sucessors.
Source?

This has never been suggested in the fluff to my knowledge.

I mean, ultimately, this is somewhat deceiving anyway. Even if the Ultramarines could only summon, say, half of their successors, that would leave them at 300,000 Marines, and the next closest Legion still only around 80,000 to 100,000, max. Remember, more than 60% of all Chapters are Ultramarines. The Space Wolves are .1%. That only leaves less than 40% between the other 7 chapters. Depending on how you feel is the most realistic division of that 35% or so, it's unlikely any one other 1st Founding Legion accounts for more than 9-10% of the total Marines.

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2013, 00:55
Not me. Got that number off Lexicanum.

That's where you went wrong. Never trust Lexicanum :p


Arent the Space Wolf Great Companies each at around chapter strength? That would put them at 10-12 thousand marines

No, not even a little bit. They are each between 80 and 200 Space Wolves, depending. Also, all Wolf Guard are technically part of the Great Wolf's Company. So they wouldn't count towards Great Company's individual numbers. The only successors the Space Wolves are list as having were the Wolf Brothers and they were a dismal failure.


Also, what is this sudden obsession with pointing out that the Space Wolves only recruit from one and planet AND it's a *le gasp* Death World! :eek: The exact same thing can be said of most Space Marine Chapters period. The Blood Angels recruit from a moon, for the sake of all that the Emperor hold's dear. And it's classified as a death world. Most of the Space Marine Chapters that don't recruit from a single world or that don't recruit from a death world still do their recruiting from more primitive worlds. Obviously, there are some exceptions to this, but, those ones are the exception, Space Wolves are more the norm.

MajorWesJanson
05-02-2013, 03:12
yeah but ultramarines also have the least influence over their own sucessors.

At the least, the UM are quite close to the Primogenitor chapters, so something like 23-26 chapters guaranteed. Statistically, the UM have the best odds of pulling in the most support. Not a chance that every successor that follows the line of Guilliman would fall in, but many would. And the UM may not be close to many of the chapters that use the Guilliman Geneseed, we know there can be successors of successors, so If you get the Primogenitors, I can imagine a lot of their direct descendant chapters would follow as well. No way they would get the whole 600K-ish marines that are estimated to use their gene stock, but I could see with some effort them rebuilding a Legion in the 150K-250K range.

Dhazzakull
05-02-2013, 03:44
No, not even a little bit. They are each between 80 and 200 Space Wolves, depending. Also, all Wolf Guard are technically part of the Great Wolf's Company. So they wouldn't count towards Great Company's individual numbers. T

Where did you get that information from. The Wolf Guard are the personal guard and advisors of each wolflord, every wolflord chooses the from the best of his company.
The company of the great wolf only consists of dreadnoughts, wolfpriests, ironpriests and runepriests.

NemoSD
05-02-2013, 05:17
Dark Angels would not be one of the largest, but they would be the first to make the conversion.... here is how it would go:

Azrael stands up at the Inner Council meeting, "Ok brooding, dark gentlemen. Let us start with a prayer, Oh Great Emperor, give us the strength to hunt the fallen, and protect our secret that we keep from you, and your most trusted counsel so that we may continue to loyally serve you when not hunting our fallen brethern, amen."

Inner Council echos back the Amens.

"In the High Lord's of Terra's wisdom," Azrael starts, "The Legions have been reformed... so repaint your armor Green, and go about business as normal. Any questions? Nope. Legion formed."

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2013, 05:27
Where did you get that information from. The Wolf Guard are the personal guard and advisors of each wolflord, every wolflord chooses the from the best of his company.
The company of the great wolf only consists of dreadnoughts, wolfpriests, ironpriests and runepriests.

I thought the Wolf Guard were, too. Must be old-gamer brain.

KingDeath
05-02-2013, 09:02
The Legion of Spessmuhreen players.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
05-02-2013, 11:09
Not me. Got that number off Lexicanum.

Due to the fact that it is a wiki, it's advisable to take what you read on there with a pinch of salt. It's not as bad as 40KWiki though.



I'm not sure if Salamders have a successor or not, maybe the Firedrakes? I'm not sure.
Hm, I've never read of a Chapter explicitly stated to be one, but I'd find it strange if they didn't. There doesn't appear to be any reason for them not to.



Also, what is this sudden obsession with pointing out that the Space Wolves only recruit from one and planet AND it's a *le gasp* Death World!
My point was that the harsh requirements to become a Space Wolf combined with Fenris being a Death World would prohibit the the Space Wolves from approaching the numbers of any other Founding Chapter combined with its sucessors. I guess it wasn't really necessary to say, though. I didn't mean that it's surprising that they only recruit from a single (Death) World.

BooTMGSG
05-02-2013, 11:22
Dark Angels would not be one of the largest, but they would be the first to make the conversion.... here is how it would go:

Azrael stands up at the Inner Council meeting, "Ok brooding, dark gentlemen. Let us start with a prayer, Oh Great Emperor, give us the strength to hunt the fallen, and protect our secret that we keep from you, and your most trusted counsel so that we may continue to loyally serve you when not hunting our fallen brethern, amen."

Inner Council echos back the Amens.

"In the High Lord's of Terra's wisdom," Azrael starts, "The Legions have been reformed... so repaint your armor Green, and go about business as normal. Any questions? Nope. Legion formed."

Alternatively:

Azreal :"The High Lords are reforming the Legions, this is is unusual and I fear it is a ruse to expose us. We must make every effort to make the reformation look like hard work. Brother Asmodai will be doing the round to check that no one blabed."

Wyrmwood
05-02-2013, 11:56
Where did you get that information from. The Wolf Guard are the personal guard and advisors of each wolflord, every wolflord chooses the from the best of his company.
The company of the great wolf only consists of dreadnoughts, wolfpriests, ironpriests and runepriests.
In addition to the customary Iron/Rune/Wolf Priests, Logan Grimnar's Great Company consists entirely of Wolf Guard, in the same way that the First Companies of other Chapters consist of Veterans. Each subsequent Great Company also includes Wolf Guard in its ranks; they are as you say, chosen by the Jarl/Lord for their heroism/tactical prowess/bravery/skill at arms etc.

Each Great Company is, for all intents, an antonymous body - they all have their own Priests, Support (Drop Pods, Vehicles, Venerable/Dreadnoughts) and Wolf Guard. Logan Grimnar's Great Company simply eschews the Blood Claw/Grey Hunter/Long Fang system because what could be referred to as the Great Company's 'Line Soldiers' are all Wolf Guard.


My point was that the harsh requirements to become a Space Wolf combined with Fenris being a Death World would prohibit the the Space Wolves from approaching the numbers of any other Founding Chapter combined with its sucessors.
It's not that; many Space Marine Chapters recruit from Death Worlds - the Flesh Tearers, Dark Angels, Blood Angels etc. The problem that the Space Wolves face is not where they recruit from, but the instability of their geneseed and the Canis Helix.

Bold_or_Stupid
05-02-2013, 12:43
In addition to the customary Iron/Rune/Wolf Priests, Logan Grimnar's Great Company consists entirely of Wolf Guard, in the same way that the First Companies of other Chapters consist of Veterans. Each subsequent Great Company also includes Wolf Guard in its ranks; they are as you say, chosen by the Jarl/Lord for their heroism/tactical prowess/bravery/skill at arms etc.

Each Great Company is, for all intents, an antonymous body - they all have their own Priests, Support (Drop Pods, Vehicles, Venerable/Dreadnoughts) and Wolf Guard. Logan Grimnar's Great Company simply eschews the Blood Claw/Grey Hunter/Long Fang system because what could be referred to as the Great Company's 'Line Soldiers' are all Wolf Guard.

Source? Logan has a standard Great Company, with a lot of Wolfguard, not entirely made off them. The Great Wolf's company is seperate and consist of the priests and dreads, it helps to remember that Logan is a Wolf Lord, AND the Great Wolf.

NemoSD
05-02-2013, 16:20
Alternatively:

Azreal :"The High Lords are reforming the Legions, this is is unusual and I fear it is a ruse to expose us. We must make every effort to make the reformation look like hard work. Brother Asmodai will be doing the round to check that no one blabed."

See you just had to go ruin my funny by stating what they would do given their massive unprecedented paranoia. :-p

viv714r
05-02-2013, 17:05
Firedrakes are the 1st Company not a successor.

its hinted that the Black Dragons,Storm Giants are from Salamander geneseed though i believe not 100%
Ah yes, that's it. @SomeRandomEvilGuy as for why they don't have many, they were absolutely decimated at Istvaan leaving them with few men.

theJ
05-02-2013, 18:47
A point that seems to have been missed by most here is that we were supposed to include the filthy heretical dirty honourless traitors in our calculations. This complicates matters, since we don't really have a lot of numbers concerning those. That said, I'd like to nominate the Thousand Sons as the smallest, due to them starting out at ~1000bodies and having no(known) method of increasing this number. This'd put them lower than Space Wolves, who are probably the second smallest.

Ultramarines would be the largest - no question.
While I don't have any real numbers to back it up, I'd put the Black Legion in second place, due to their love of absorbing other warbands. Some measure of unity also helps.
Third would likely be Word Bearers, due to them being the second largest prior to the heresy, and I've seen no signs of them dropping significantly since then(then again, there's A LOT I haven't read). As with the Black Legion, they seem to be relatively unified.
Fourth and later, I'll leave up in the air. Could easily be more traitors depending on where the recentish renegades fall, though.

Alpha Legion are a wildcard(as usual). Depending on your personal interpretation, they could consist of anything from a company to half the Imperium.

Lothlanathorian
05-02-2013, 23:42
My point was that the harsh requirements to become a Space Wolf combined with Fenris being a Death World would prohibit the the Space Wolves from approaching the numbers of any other Founding Chapter combined with its sucessors. I guess it wasn't really necessary to say, though. I didn't mean that it's surprising that they only recruit from a single (Death) World.

Just as an aside, I wasn't trying to single you out. I've seen this pop up in a couple of threads recently and felt the need to address it. As Wyrmwood has pointed out, the Space Wolves issue is their geneseed, not their recruiting practice (which is pretty much the same as, conservatively, 80% of Space Marine Chapters, if I had to make up a number :p).

TheDungen
06-02-2013, 05:21
this is why i think that all imperial fist successors (whit the possible exception of the crimson fists) should have the templar structure, so that dorn could slowly build up his legion to the strength to challenge gulliman without it being that apparent he was doing so.

WarsmithFarrus
06-02-2013, 10:53
Iron warriors would be pretty high up in the legion size pecking order