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Chapters Unwritten
05-02-2013, 17:57
I was discussing with a friend of mine just how awkward GW's story to rules translation is sometimes. What are some of the classics?

MarshalFaust
05-02-2013, 17:59
Can you give an example of what you mean? I'm not really sure what you're asking for.

Chapters Unwritten
05-02-2013, 18:07
Well, for example, the thing we were talking about was how things like Daemons live in the warp primarily, but aren't any more capable at defending psychic powers. That sort of thing. You know the sort.

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de Selby
05-02-2013, 18:09
I think he means things that are important in the background but never turn up on the tabletop. Chaos cultists were an obvious example but they snuck back into the codex this time around.

edit: never mind, see above.

Chapters Unwritten
05-02-2013, 18:34
Well, that is sort of what we meant in our discussion, too. Like how the daemons seem to appear from nowhere in the path of assembled enemy forces in the book, but in the story they often have already overtaken much of the area or are coming from warp storms or portals.

Cultists would be a good example too.

Vaktathi
05-02-2013, 18:37
The way Thousand Sons sorcerors aren't any more capable at psychic's and have no more psychic defense than anything else despite being amongst the most learned and capable sorcerors in existence? :p

Or how Force Weapons are supposed to be specialized anti-daemon weapons, but aren't any more effective against them than a basic CCW for the most part since they (usually) have no armor save to bypass and are Eternal Warriors :p

daveNYC
05-02-2013, 18:44
The myriad stories that have tyranid organisms coming out of nowhere and eating people before they even have a chance to react... and then this edition added overwatch. (plus the no assaulting from reserve)

Grocklock
05-02-2013, 18:56
The problem with these posts are (and I know I'm going to get flack for this but) the game cannot match the background completely due to game balances, for example space marines are killing machines so should have killer stats, but that would not be good business for GW. nor for us. i mean to represent the background you would be looking at for 1500 points around 200 to 300 orks vs around 10 marines.

If you where looking to start an army for 40k would you go for the army which requires you to have a tune of guys which are not going to do anything. Or the one which allows you to only have 10 guys.

I mean I you wanted to bring the background into 40k for real. Then marines should win every game and if they don't then reveal that there was a scret moral victory that was infact more important then the achual mission, there fore winning them the game.

Blinder
05-02-2013, 19:23
I think this is less "why isn't cool-fluff-thing-X super-powered" and more "well that just doesn't make *any sense at all.*" Anti-daemon weapons being some of the worst stuff to use against daemons fits, and making them get a real perk against daemons wouldn't break the game unless it was an idiotic perk. Marines are actually "somewhat" well represented, in that they have universally above-average stats to represent the whole "bigger better harder to kill" shtick, they have a selection of special rules for lot of the rest, and generally quite good equipment. You don't have to *recreate* the background for it to be *represented,* after all.

I'm still hung up on the "anti-aircraft" options and how... interesting... GW's decisions on Errata were. Sure, Hydra + Skyfire + BRB Interceptor would compete with the Vendetta's lascannon upgrade for "bestest bargain ever," but just Skyfire leaves it a bit iffy at it's supposed role. On the other hand, comparing it to a Skyray makes it look like the bee's knees, since they apparently figured the Tau had no need either for AA or for Truth in Advertising... and now that Flakk missiles are finally here...

Not asking for any of it to make flyers irrelevant, it'd just be nice for a bit of consistency and for it to not feel like you're better off using something entirely different when there's a supposedly purpose-built tool for the job (though I think the missiles simply have the misfortune to have been introduced in the same book as a great airborne counter for anything that would carry them...).

Lord Inquisitor
05-02-2013, 19:26
Terminator armour is a good one.

Originally Terminator armour couldn't hide and couldn't run but could fight in combat normally.

This got translated in 3rd ed to being unable to Sweeping Advance since that was a 2D6 "overrun" move then and the only way of moving more than the normal Move and Assault.

Later, sweeping advances got changed to a test to see if you can cut down the enemy as they turn to flee. Running got added to the game, as did going to ground.

End result, Terminators can't cut down enemies in combat properly but can run and hide just fine.

lolplates
05-02-2013, 19:52
Hmm, pintle mounted bolters, heavy stubbers and the like not being an anti aircraft weapon.

Probably not in the fluff, but back in the day they used pintle mounts as a form aa if I remember my childhood reading of tank books.

Lord Damocles
05-02-2013, 19:57
Hmm, pintle mounted bolters, heavy stubbers and the like not being an anti aircraft weapon.

Probably not in the fluff, but back in the day they used pintle mounts as a form aa if I remember my childhood reading of tank books.
Apocalypse made all pintle weapons AA weapons too.

But as accurate as that might have been, it was a slap in the face for Xenos forces.

Vaktathi
05-02-2013, 19:59
Under FW's rules for Apocalypse and their old Flyer rules, all Pintle weapons were "AA" mounted, meaning they didn't only hit fliers on 6's. With 6E and GW's rather odd way of designating AA weapons as "Skyfire" (silly name change going along with the change to firing at ground targets) they have to now pay for the ability to get (the ridiculously named) Skyfire ability, and only under FW rules.




But as accurate as that might have been, it was a slap in the face for Xenos forces.
given that they are (at least as far as I remember) 2 or 3 shot S4 guns that couldn't target separately from the rest of the tank (IIRC), I'd say that's a bit of an exaggeration. :p

Horus Lupercal
05-02-2013, 20:02
I think ones got to be the Nephiliam. Supposedly one of the best dog fight aircraft but accruals sucks at AA

Currently all elder psykers.
Supposed to be more powerful than any but suck.

Gene stealer cults rising up when Nids invade but are nowhere to be seen. Can't even ally IG for counts as.

Chapters Unwritten
05-02-2013, 20:03
I like the Carnifex, and how its entry describes it as best used for breaking into the enemy's fortified positions like a battering ram...but doing this without frag grenades is a great way to get killed with the guy.

Cthell
05-02-2013, 20:12
The Howling Banshee Exarch's Executioner? It was obviously meant to become a power spear (it's even in the CCW gallery labelled "Eldar Power Spear"), but instead the FAQ made it a special power weapon type.

Not that I'm complaining, mind, since it's better in it's current form than a power spear would be, but it seems... odd

Angelwing
05-02-2013, 20:21
I like the Carnifex, and how its entry describes it as best used for breaking into the enemy's fortified positions like a battering ram...but doing this without frag grenades is a great way to get killed with the guy.

The frag spine upgrade counts as assault grenades....

Radium
05-02-2013, 20:21
given that they are (at least as far as I remember) 2 or 3 shot S4 guns that couldn't target separately from the rest of the tank (IIRC), I'd say that's a bit of an exaggeration. :p

Multi-melta on land raiders ;).

Vaktathi
05-02-2013, 20:25
Multi-melta on land raiders ;).

Are they pintle-mounted? That would do it I guess, though I'm not sure if they retained the 12" range loss as well, in which case they would also have been very easy to avoid :p

lordreaven448
05-02-2013, 20:32
Daemons in fluff when invading are great hordes. In game they number a little less than most SM armies.

Grocklock
05-02-2013, 20:50
I like the Carnifex, and how its entry describes it as best used for breaking into the enemy's fortified positions like a battering ram...but doing this without frag grenades is a great way to get killed with the guy.
To be far when attacking a building frags are going to do nothing for you as the building will never hit back

Chapters Unwritten
05-02-2013, 21:27
To be far when attacking a building frags are going to do nothing for you as the building will never hit back

The carnifex is I1, so having frags isn't very helpful anyway, heh.

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Marshal
05-02-2013, 21:38
The carnifex is I1, so having frags isn't very helpful anyway, heh.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Living Battering Ram states otherwise, heh.

Kakapo42
05-02-2013, 21:50
Skyrays being rubbish at AAA duty is the main one I can think of off the top of my head.

Lord Inquisitor
05-02-2013, 22:00
Oh, that is a good one!

Gaargod
05-02-2013, 22:07
Lictors being super-duper-super predators who jump out from nowhere and insta-gib their target.

In practice, they jump out of nowhere, then stand around for a turn looking sheepish.

lolplates
05-02-2013, 22:09
Huh, I didn't know that about the FW rules about pintle mounts.

Flogger
05-02-2013, 22:12
Well, for example, the thing we were talking about was how things like Daemons live in the warp primarily, but aren't any more capable at defending psychic powers.

I believe it should be like so:
When fighting an army of chaos daemons (as in: a primary detachment), any psyker on the tabletop receives Perils of the Warp when rolling ANY double, and this is instead of deny the witch. It does make the daemons very good VS psykers, which is how it should be :)

Retrospectus
05-02-2013, 22:22
Don't carnifexes have furious charge? (or can get it rather easy). with frag spines and living battering ram that gives a potential of I4

ihavetoomuchminis
05-02-2013, 22:30
Sonic weapons destroying people inside their armours....and having AP 5.

MarshalFaust
05-02-2013, 22:48
Since I first started playing this game I've always wished that I could drop a drop pod on top of an enemy unit.

Grocklock
05-02-2013, 23:02
Don't carnifexes have furious charge? (or can get it rather easy). with frag spines and living battering ram that gives a potential of I4

furious charge is no longer +1I

RobPro
06-02-2013, 00:17
Everyone thinks my Necrons are fearless. They haven't been since like 1997?

The bearded one
06-02-2013, 00:48
The slow, heavy weapon-carrying Tau pathfinders being a "fast attack" choice ;)

Hazerdous2Health
06-02-2013, 01:35
I'm going to have to go with the huge lack of anti air weapons in the game. Not only for xenos but certain space marine chapters have figured out how to shoot down a flyer while others are still trusting in good old cross hairs? What year is this game suppose to be taking place in?

Kaldor Draigo
06-02-2013, 01:40
I believe it should be like so:
When fighting an army of chaos daemons (as in: a primary detachment), any psyker on the tabletop receives Perils of the Warp when rolling ANY double, and this is instead of deny the witch. It does make the daemons very good VS psykers, which is how it should be :)

Why would that make sense?

Hellebore
06-02-2013, 02:13
Many of these things existed in 2nd ed. Especially the nid stuff with their nid event tables 'jones is acting strangely' etc. In 2nd ed force weapons were lethal against daemons because they ignored their daemonic aura save. Which is what made the Bloodthirster and Avatar so nasty because they had armour instead so could still save (blood thirster had 2D6 terminator armour and the avatar had 2+/3+/4+ save as ASM couldn't reduce it past 4+ - oh and the Avatar was T8 making it immune to S4 attacks....).

Eldar Witchblades. They are eldar force weapons and are supposed to be superior to everyone else's. In 2nd ed they could stack warp cards onto the weapon without limit, whilst all other force weapons could only expend a maximum of 1 or 2 iirc.

IMO 2nd ed represented the armies in the game more true to background than any edition since. Wasn't perfect, but made more sense than the issues caused by the current rules. A space marine punching a guardsman killed him on a 3+, no save or anything. A guardsman with a powersword killed a marine on a 3+ with a 6+ armour save; in other words a space marine's FIST was more deadly to a guardsman than a powersword was to a space marine. A genestealer would absolutely annihilate pretty much anything it touched, but died to shooting pretty easily. A single genestealer could take out a space marine captain in melee. Lictors were even better at it.

Eldar aspects were small, elite, vicious units that worked well on their own. Marines were similar due to the rapid fire ability.

I never liked the Sustained Fire rules, 1 roll to hit results in all hits, but a chance of the weapon jamming. The revised necromunda rules fixed most of the issues I had with the 2nd ed rules. Lasguns could have probably done without the -1ASM IMO.

Hellebore

TheDoctor
06-02-2013, 02:48
Dark Eldar Incubi- they have like a paragraph devoted to their tormentor helms, nowhere to be see in the rules

Corsair Princess
06-02-2013, 04:13
Here's a weird one, Dire Avengers have grenades on their models but not in game.

ehlijen
06-02-2013, 05:07
Most of these are fairly explicable: GW write rules to make a reasonably fun game and they write over the top background to make reasonable fun pulp fiction, both to help sell models but neither coordinated with the other.

Over the top background tends to favour one side strongly over the other, and that tends to make for very unfun games.

Many more can be explained by GW chosing a suboptimal release strategy for keeping its rules up to date (though it seems to help on the sales front, but that's off topic). Eg things like the skyray not having skyfire are understandble if one assumes three things: 1) GW does not change older codex entries out of their role 2) the skyray is an older codex entry and 3) back then there were no aircraft meaning it couldn't have used skyfire. The result isn't good, but it is understandable.

Then there are some that are odd, like the Avenger grenades.

TheDungen
06-02-2013, 05:08
that any pivotable gun is somehow worse at shooting at airplanes with. all you need is range and knowing how far ahead to aim and most of them should be able to do fine.

ehlijen
06-02-2013, 05:24
that any pivotable gun is somehow worse at shooting at airplanes with. all you need is range and knowing how far ahead to aim and most of them should be able to do fine.

That's not all you need. You also need to be able to see the aircraft coming (difficult in the middle of a raging battle where a stray bullet can take your head off) or have the split second reaction time needed to shoot the aircraft even if you don't see it coming AND hope the gun can be turned quickly enough for that. The gun also needs to be able to elevate sufficiently (uncommon for guns meant to target ground units) and have a good rate of fire so it can keep shooting if the aircraft suddenly changes course.

Akwikone
06-02-2013, 06:11
Here's a weird one, Dire Avengers have grenades on their models but not in game.

Ditto for Kroot, along with pistols, which would be quite handy for an assualt-ish unit.

Tarax
06-02-2013, 09:36
Daemons in fluff when invading are great hordes. In game they number a little less than most SM armies.

I first thought that you said Tyranids. But that's basically a problem with army building. The units which according to the fluff should be present in hordes, are often not that effective in game life. Either for convenience (money- or game-wise) or just that there are better units available.


The slow, heavy weapon-carrying Tau pathfinders being a "fast attack" choice ;)

Actually they are more fitting than SM Scouts with Scout and Move through Cover in the Troops section. Even worse, Ork Lootas as Elites and Flash Gitz as Heavy, which should have been the other way round.

Shamana
06-02-2013, 10:11
Dark Eldar Incubi- they have like a paragraph devoted to their tormentor helms, nowhere to be see in the rules

Yeah, when you have such a direct description of their wargear, it's a bit weird for it to not do anything.

My theory is that it was meant to work somewhat like the banshee helm, but it got removed late in the process so incubi don't get too good.

WarsmithFarrus
06-02-2013, 10:35
Iron Warriors are great at sieges etc yet where are the rules for this in the game. Then again one could argue all the legions should of got legion wide rules. Dosent help that im doing a iron warriors splinter warband/ Successor chapter. Oh well I dont need tank hunter to win :p or move through cover

Bold_or_Stupid
06-02-2013, 11:45
Yeah, when you have such a direct description of their wargear, it's a bit weird for it to not do anything.

My theory is that it was meant to work somewhat like the banshee helm, but it got removed late in the process so incubi don't get too good.

It's supposed to work like a Scorpion Stinger helm, guess it's were 1 of thier attacks came from.

ehlijen
06-02-2013, 12:08
Iron Warriors are great at sieges etc yet where are the rules for this in the game. Then again one could argue all the legions should of got legion wide rules. Dosent help that im doing a iron warriors splinter warband/ Successor chapter. Oh well I dont need tank hunter to win :p or move through cover

Iron warriors have two special rules: 'Warsmith' in the HQ section and 'Vindicator' in the heavy support section. The warsmith reduces enemy cover (if I remember right) and the vindicators tear down bastions. What more do you really need to be able to say 'I'm good at attacking fortresses'?

TheDungen
06-02-2013, 12:26
That's not all you need. You also need to be able to see the aircraft coming (difficult in the middle of a raging battle where a stray bullet can take your head off) or have the split second reaction time needed to shoot the aircraft even if you don't see it coming AND hope the gun can be turned quickly enough for that. The gun also needs to be able to elevate sufficiently (uncommon for guns meant to target ground units) and have a good rate of fire so it can keep shooting if the aircraft suddenly changes course.

which is why i said pivotable guns. and sorry even supersonic flyers looks like they move pretty slow when you see them from far away, reaction time has nothing to do with it. and even then all that should apply for dedicated anti air weapons to unless they're automated.

theJ
06-02-2013, 13:12
I remember being really annoyed with Lucius the Eternals entry.
Fluff made him one of the greatest swordsmen ever, with the ability to reincarnate from whoever kills him.
Rules give him fancy whip skills and armour that eats people.
I get why they skipped the reincarnation, but why wuss out on the swordy bitz?

Mauler
06-02-2013, 13:17
Or how Force Weapons are supposed to be specialized anti-daemon weapons, but aren't any more effective against them than a basic CCW for the most part since they (usually) have no armor save to bypass and are Eternal Warriors :p

Not quite following this one, I think you're mixing up Force and Nemesis weapons? Force weapons are just melee weapons that psykers can charge up and aren't specifically designed to kill daemons at all.


Psychic Hoods are an odd one, originally a Librarian's Aegis Hood was to aid in focusing their own psychic power and to protect them from incoming psychic attacks. Now is just a defensive bubble with no offensive aid at all.

Conversion Beamers are another odd one, I'm sure back in my old Space Hulk days a Beamer converted mass into explosive energy, so the bigger the target the more damage it took. Now they vary over distance instead? Not quite seeing the conversion in that...

Shamana
06-02-2013, 13:30
It's supposed to work like a Scorpion Stinger helm, guess it's were 1 of thier attacks came from.

True, that's how it was before, when it functioned as a sort-of splinter pistol for +1 attack. Still, the description was suggestive of a banshee mask-like effect.

Bubble Ghost
06-02-2013, 13:56
Not quite following this one, I think you're mixing up Force and Nemesis weapons? Force weapons are just melee weapons that psykers can charge up and aren't specifically designed to kill daemons at all.

They're not specifically designed to, but in the old, old, old days, daemons were vulnerable to psychic attacks, which negated their saves. So it's an established part of the setting. Kind of disappointed that something regarding psychic powers wasn't added to the Daemon rule in the rulebook, but it's not really a big deal, this one.

ehlijen
06-02-2013, 14:14
which is why i said pivotable guns. and sorry even supersonic flyers looks like they move pretty slow when you see them from far away, reaction time has nothing to do with it. and even then all that should apply for dedicated anti air weapons to unless they're automated.

The 40k table isn't far away enough for supersonic flyers to seem slow. Reaction time only doesn't come into it if the unit has been watching the skyes for the flyer to show up, which in most cases precludes watching the ground for targets.

The fact that a unit is watching the skies to get good reaction times and can respond with an elevated, not just pivotable, weapon that fires rapidly or guided or flak burst shots is what makes it an AA unit and generally brings a reduced effectiveness and spotting ground targets with it.

Looking for small specs in the sky and moving, camouflaged shapes on the ground both take a fair bit of concentration and you'll be hard pressed to do both at the same time.

Charistoph
06-02-2013, 14:25
Numerous flying units in the game, but the only ones that actually get to Fly are jets and big behemoths.


Many more can be explained by GW chosing a suboptimal release strategy for keeping its rules up to date (though it seems to help on the sales front, but that's off topic). Eg things like the skyray not having skyfire are understandble if one assumes three things: 1) GW does not change older codex entries out of their role 2) the skyray is an older codex entry and 3) back then there were no aircraft meaning it couldn't have used skyfire. The result isn't good, but it is understandable.
The FAQ for the Hydra refutes this claim.


Ork Lootas as Elites and Flash Gitz as Heavy, which should have been the other way round.
Oddly enough, they were in the 3rd Edition codex. A lot of wtf went off when the 4th put them like that.

ehlijen
06-02-2013, 15:18
The FAQ for the Hydra refutes this claim.



The hydra already had a special rule for targeting flyers that was updated to continue working. The skyray had no such rule in any GW publication. It was added to the codex as a ground fire support unit and as such it still functions in a rules sense.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-02-2013, 16:00
Its a bit weird that religious fanatics (Sisters) worshipping a guy who specifically never wanted to be worshipped and who likely haven't ascended gets to perform miracles but people who worship actual godsn(say CSM) who wants to be worshipped and with a known history for interfering/affecting things doesn't get anything like that.

Charistoph
06-02-2013, 16:37
The hydra already had a special rule for targeting flyers that was updated to continue working. The skyray had no such rule in any GW publication. It was added to the codex as a ground fire support unit and as such it still functions in a rules sense.

Incorrect on several points.

There were no codex Flyers when the Hydra was introduced in Codex: Imperial Guard, 5th Edition, they had a rule that allowed their fire to ignore Cover Saves provided by movement, that was it. The Valkyrie/Vendetta were the first "aircraft" introduced in a codex, and they were just Skimmers (as were all the rest of the 5th Edition "aircraft" which were later amended to be Flyers). Yes, the intention was there, obviously, but the rules weren't. The rules for it to be an AA tank were added when the AA features were introduced in Edition.

Forgeworld, a Games Workshop company, invented the Sky Ray primarily as a SAM ship. When Citadel took over producing the model and the rules were introduced mid-4th Edition, there were no Flyers nor were Flyers ever intended for 40K, so any extra Anti-Air rules were dropped in the codex. The Sky Ray was the first AA unit ever put in a codex, and those rules were never amended in to the unit's rules. There are only 2 reasons for this: 1) Codex: Tau, 6th Edition, was planned to be released soon, so it will be taken care of then; 2) The people making the Amendments have little clue of what anything in the game is or does, and don't care.

ihavetoomuchminis
06-02-2013, 16:48
CSM not having drop pods nor plasma cannons, while DA, who supposedly have access to ancient weaponry (wich plasma cannon seem to be), have.

Nobz being the Warlord bodyguard but not having the bodyguard rule.

Ork kommandos being sneaky but not having bonus to cover saves.

Tzeentch screamers being the nemesis of space ships and the like...but being unable to attack flyers.

I'll keep thinking....

Mauler
06-02-2013, 18:57
They're not specifically designed to, but in the old, old, old days, daemons were vulnerable to psychic attacks, which negated their saves. So it's an established part of the setting. Kind of disappointed that something regarding psychic powers wasn't added to the Daemon rule in the rulebook, but it's not really a big deal, this one.

Doesn't seem that established to me, when it's not in the design of the weapon and not in any game mechanics ;) But I know what you mean, I'd like daemons to be a bit more true to form in the upcoming book too. They're made from warp-stuff, they shouldn't behave like normal physical beings...

Lord Damocles
06-02-2013, 18:58
Background has Lychguard with axes, but they were FAQd out.

Bubble Ghost
06-02-2013, 19:09
Doesn't seem that established to me, when it's not in the design of the weapon and not in any game mechanics ;)

Of course it's established. It's not in game mechanics now, but it has been. You were basically suggesting Vaktathi had made the whole thing up.

PS. ;)









:p

Vaktathi
06-02-2013, 19:32
Not quite following this one, I think you're mixing up Force and Nemesis weapons? Force weapons are just melee weapons that psykers can charge up and aren't specifically designed to kill daemons at all.Now yes, but as Bubble Ghost said, back in earlier editions all Force weapons were pretty nasty anti-daemon weapons, a Daemon wouldn't care too much about a Power Sword but a Force Sword was rather scary, since as a Psychic attack it negated their Daemonic Invulnerability save. So while a Librarian's Force Sword wasn't too scary to a Terminator, it was very scary to a Daemon.

As opposed to now where the Psyker can't even even use the ID ability against Daemons and Daemons still get their saves.

Mauler
06-02-2013, 20:19
Background has Lychguard with axes, but they were FAQd out.

LOL They were not FAQed out, at no point was a "Hyperphase Sword" an axe. Straight cutting edge, based on an ancient Egyptian khopesh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh



Of course it's established. It's not in game mechanics now, but it has been. You were basically suggesting Vaktathi had made the whole thing up.

PS. ;)




:p


haha, you cheeky rapscallion! I'm not suggesting that Vak made it all up, I was just being finnicky. It's a character flaw but I try to make sure I'm right. ;)



Now yes, but as Bubble Ghost said, back in earlier editions all Force weapons were pretty nasty anti-daemon weapons, a Daemon wouldn't care too much about a Power Sword but a Force Sword was rather scary, since as a Psychic attack it negated their Daemonic Invulnerability save. So while a Librarian's Force Sword wasn't too scary to a Terminator, it was very scary to a Daemon.

As opposed to now where the Psyker can't even even use the ID ability against Daemons and Daemons still get their saves.

It's OK though, we have nemesis weapons for that! Grey Knights aren't OTT at all! I actually have two very old Grey Knight Terminators with nemesis halberds somewhere...

Imperialis_Dominatus
06-02-2013, 20:23
Assuming Daemons don't keep Eternal Warrior in their next book, Force Weapons should be truer to form.

Kakapo42
06-02-2013, 21:00
Its a bit weird that religious fanatics (Sisters) worshipping a guy who specifically never wanted to be worshipped and who likely haven't ascended gets to perform miracles but people who worship actual godsn(say CSM) who wants to be worshipped and with a known history for interfering/affecting things doesn't get anything like that.

They do get marks, boons and other gifts though. Not to mention Orks with their Gork/Mork-centric psychic powers. I cannot think of any other 40k god that literally slams a foot or fist down onto the battlefield to smash the enemy of whoever invoked them.

Lothlanathorian
06-02-2013, 21:59
Ork kommandos being sneaky but not having bonus to cover saves.

They do get Infiltrate and the lack of Stealth or some other form of Cover Save bonus works just fine since they're sneaky for Orks which Infiltrate does a fine job of representing.


a Librarian's Aegis Hood was to aid in focusing their own psychic power and to protect them from incoming psychic attacks.

Hood of Hellfire. Unless they recently changed the name of it in the background. The Aegis was always a Grey Knight thing.

raygunsand rocketeers
06-02-2013, 22:12
Grocklock is correct.... much fluff cant make it into the game because of balance issue stemming from the tournament style play pushed by GW.....
if you want fluff, do what we do, Ignor tournament crowds/ events, and just play for fun, add in house rules to fluff up the 40k, and throw out the notion of balanced...
we have a table to roll on, each player rolls against their list. the resulting roll can either reduce your total forces, or increase it.....
let me tell you what friend, there is nothing quite like the feeling of having 500 pts, and defeating a 2000 pt enemy force.....
40k can still be a great and fun game for the non tournament crowd, it just needs a little tweaking.....
the other thing we do, is to add a GM (Game Master), like in role playing games.... their jobs is to keep track of cloaked units, random encounter rolls, etc...
it keeps it feeling more 'balanced'.... err, 'Fair', when there is a third neutral party to aid in the lopsided games necessary to play in a fluffy manner.....
give it a try

elparker
07-02-2013, 00:18
With modern aircraft you would have to be miles away when they are moving at combat speed for them to seem slow enough to hit with something like the 240G (one of the most common weapons mounted in our fighting vehicles like the striker). Miles are just a tad out of weapons range. There is a reason we use tracking missiles to shoot down aircraft instead of flak, crew served machine gunes (i.e. 240g, .50 cal) or a SAW (squad automatic weapon for those who don't know).
Finally we get to penetration. A stubber will never have that kind of killing power.

Shipmonkey
07-02-2013, 14:02
Even worse, Ork Lootas as Elites and Flash Gitz as Heavy, which should have been the other way round.

Game balance and potential for great themed armies caused this. If Flash Gitz stayed in Elite, it would have made the Elite section a nob party. By placing thm in Heavy Support, you can take an all nob army with choices out of nearly every slot.

Kiro
07-02-2013, 14:23
The way Thousand Sons sorcerors aren't any more capable at psychic's and have no more psychic defense than anything else despite being amongst the most learned and capable sorcerors in existence? :p


This, to the max.

In the last Necrons Codex, C'Tan were supposed to be especially vulnerable to psychic powers but there was nothing to support this, rules-wise.

Reinholt
07-02-2013, 14:27
I'm still stuck on how 10 marines fit into a rhino. You know what's absent? STORAGE SPACE FOR PEOPLE OR GEAR.

Is there a shrink ray that hits them on the way in? Do they fold up for easy storage? Was the secret project the Emperor was working on actually a direct portal into the webway from inside each Rhino so they could actually fit ten marines?

Seriously. That thing is tiny.

Lothlanathorian
07-02-2013, 14:37
Yeah, all the vehicles are out of scale with the infantry and, when one actually takes the time to notice this, it's a bit jarring. Then again, can you imagine how huge a Land Raider would be if everything were scaled properly with an IGmen being the standard by which everything was compared to? Marines would have to be bigger, which would in turn mean that Rhinos and Land Raiders have to be even more bigger. Things would get out of hand fast :p

Mauler
07-02-2013, 16:06
Yeah, the wonky scale even extends to the full size Rhino outside Warhammer World. I remember clapping eyes on it for the first time and thinking "There is no way on Terra that ten people will fit in that, nevermind Astartes." It looks like they wouldn't even fit through the side hatches unless thrown in longways by a squadmate!

With the Rhino model I always assumed that 6-8 guys sat along the sides and the rest stood in the middle. They'd kinda fit.

TheDungen
07-02-2013, 16:33
Yeah but they have already abandoned the premises of being realistic when a sam arent capable of one hit one kill on a supersonic air superiority fighter. come on a modern rbs can render an aircraft carrier so damaged it'll be worthless until it can make repairs (though it wont sink it, torpedoes are basically the only sinking weapons still in use).

its not like going faster than sound makes you harder to harm in fact if the weapon doesn't destroy you the air pressure will of you've deformed even the sightliest.

Camman1984
07-02-2013, 20:50
Isnt there little seats inside one of the raven, raider or rhino kits? They take their arms of before sitting down dont you know.

Cthell
07-02-2013, 21:27
Yeah, the wonky scale even extends to the full size Rhino outside Warhammer World. I remember clapping eyes on it for the first time and thinking "There is no way on Terra that ten people will fit in that, nevermind Astartes." It looks like they wouldn't even fit through the side hatches unless thrown in longways by a squadmate!

That's because it's just an FV432 with a body kit - it's designed to carry 10 human passengers in considerably less than sumptuous luxury, not 8ft tall rigid-armoured supersoldiers. Think of it as a sub-scale model, and it's a little easier to swallow - just scale it up ~ 33% and you'll be in the ballpark of how big it really should be.

Necronartum
07-02-2013, 21:39
Background has Lychguard with axes, but they were FAQd out.

This. They are armed with 'warscythes', yet the warscythe entry specifically states they are two handed weapons. Go figure!

Zothos
07-02-2013, 21:54
This. They are armed with 'warscythes', yet the warscythe entry specifically states they are two handed weapons. Go figure!

Warscythes are 2 handed weapons. Hyperphase swords are swords.

Could someone point me to where it is said that Lychguard use axes? I have played Necrons for over a decade and I cannot remember any Necron EVER having an axe.

What am I missing?

Chapters Unwritten
07-02-2013, 21:58
While we're on the subject, how bout those two handed weapons that don't give an extra attack but can totally be taken with something in your other hand, eh?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Lord Damocles
07-02-2013, 22:28
Could someone point me to where it is said that Lychguard use axes? I have played Necrons for over a decade and I cannot remember any Necron EVER having an axe.

What am I missing?
'The Infinite Tableau' in Xenos Hunters features Trazyn's Lychguard being armed with (amoungst other weapons) axes.



While we're on the subject, how bout those two handed weapons that don't give an extra attack but can totally be taken with something in your other hand, eh?
Reminds me of the 3rd ed. Codex: Daemonhunters FAQ which asked if Nemesis Force Weapons were one- or two-handed weapons (which would have no effect on the rules either way, but there you go...)
The answer was that they were one-handed, and made a note to look at the models.

Of course, the models also had Storm Bolters in/on a single hand, despite them being two-handed weapons :shifty:

Zothos
07-02-2013, 22:31
Ahh.

When you said "FAQd out" I thought you meant there was something in a Codex.

Black Library is hardly anything to go by.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-02-2013, 22:38
While we're on the subject, how bout those two handed weapons that don't give an extra attack but can totally be taken with something in your other hand, eh?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

*holds pistol and relic blade, looking all cray*

*holsters pistol*

*puts pistol hand on relic blade*

:P

Lord Inquisitor
07-02-2013, 22:50
On the other hand, there's the Chaos Space Marines, who've mastered the art of putting straps on their weapons. They can carry a CCW, a bolter and a bolt pistol. Unless they're a character of course, at which point they apparently can't have a strap for their combi-bolter.

Mauler
07-02-2013, 23:02
Hood of Hellfire. Unless they recently changed the name of it in the background. The Aegis was always a Grey Knight thing.

Nope, found it in my Genestealer rulebook, p14: "Terminator Librarians wear Aegis suits - these are suits of Tactical Dreadnought Armour specially modified with a protective psychic hood." There's three paragraphs on the thing, I knew I'd seen it somewhere! Ah, those were the days much like Necromunda & 2nd edition; swords that could parry, flamer hits that continued to burn, plasma guns that needed to recharge, assault cannon malfunctions, proper conversion beamers, power fists with grenade launchers, self-detonating thunder hammers, little things like ammo limitations...beh. Years of simplification are not always a good thing :(


On the other hand, there's the Chaos Space Marines, who've mastered the art of putting straps on their weapons. They can carry a CCW, a bolter and a bolt pistol. Unless they're a character of course, at which point they apparently can't have a strap for their combi-bolter.

Ah, they just get too l33t to use mortal things like straps, they get tangled in their flesh cloaks lol

Raverrn
07-02-2013, 23:57
*sheathes pistol*
:P

You mean *holsters pistol*?

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-02-2013, 00:00
Stupid serfs put my relic blade sheath on the wrong side.

Bold_or_Stupid
08-02-2013, 00:56
T
Hood of Hellfire. Unless they recently changed the name of it in the background. The Aegis was always a Grey Knight thing.

No Originally Terminator Librairians wore Aegis suits of Terminator armour which had a Psychic Hood (doubled Psi Points you used to counter powers iirc). All Grey Knight terminators had this to. 3rd ed bought in the Aegis as a Grey Knight thing.

ehlijen
08-02-2013, 02:20
You mean *holsters pistol*?

Not if the bayonet is longer than the pistol...

Ssilmath
08-02-2013, 02:27
It seems odd to me that people bring up fluff that is no longer relevant as examples of how rules do not represent fluff. When the fluff was written, the rules tended to work that way. As the rules have changed, so too has the fluff.

Now, to actually contribute: Ciaphas Cain uses a Laspistol, so it is not legal to have a Lord Commissar who represents him. For another example, the fluff loves to show Lasguns punching through concrete or armor (Especially Fire Warrior armor). Maybe it is just that I see armor save being the chance that the shot lands somewhere that armor is not covering (Joints, neck, eye lenses), instead of the chance of just punching through.

Kakapo42
08-02-2013, 03:57
Now, to actually contribute: Ciaphas Cain uses a Laspistol, so it is not legal to have a Lord Commissar who represents him. For another example, the fluff loves to show Lasguns punching through concrete or armor (Especially Fire Warrior armor). Maybe it is just that I see armor save being the chance that the shot lands somewhere that armor is not covering (Joints, neck, eye lenses), instead of the chance of just punching through.

Actually, funnily enough, the only time I've seen a lasgun shot hitting Firewarrior-grade armour described in fiction was a short story that used to be on the GW website, and the armour seemed to take it. The Water caste cameraman who was wearing it felt like he had been shot, and collapsed onto the ground, but it turned out he was just fine and the armour had taken the full brunt of it.

Lothlanathorian
08-02-2013, 05:36
'The Infinite Tableau' in Xenos Hunters features Trazyn's Lychguard being armed with (amoungst other weapons) axes.



Reminds me of the 3rd ed. Codex: Daemonhunters FAQ which asked if Nemesis Force Weapons were one- or two-handed weapons (which would have no effect on the rules either way, but there you go...)
The answer was that they were one-handed, and made a note to look at the models.

Of course, the models also had Storm Bolters in/on a single hand, despite them being two-handed weapons :shifty:

Actually, this did matter in 3rd Edition. A weapon being 'two-handed' meant it couldn't be used in conjunction with another weapon in Close Combat to get the bonus attack. Also, models were limited to having two single handed weapons or a single handed weapon and a two handed weapon. Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Death Guard got around this by having 'True Grit' which made their Storm Bolters (for GK) and Bolters (for SW and DG) count as single handed weapons. There was also a blurb in the SW minidex about their boltguns having pistol grips on them.


Nope, found it in my Genestealer rulebook, p14: "Terminator Librarians wear Aegis suits - these are suits of Tactical Dreadnought Armour specially modified with a protective psychic hood." There's three paragraphs on the thing, I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

I can't believe I didn't know this! Learn something new every day (even if it is 15 years too late :shifty:)

Mauler
08-02-2013, 11:44
I can't believe I didn't know this! Learn something new every day (even if it is 15 years too late :shifty:)

Welcome! :) Back when I was about 13 (two decades ago, what the hell?!) I started secondary/senior school and an old friend had just gotten into 40k and one of my new friends played Space Hulk. I picked up Space Hulk and it's expansions, which was a gateway into Rogue Trader era 40k, Advanced Space Crusade (which took so damn long to set up and play I think I only ever got three games of it in, ever) and later, 2nd edition Epic. I still have a Squat Land Train somewhere... Towards 1994 or so the older guys who I gamed with drifted away to university so that, coupled with rising prices meant that I dropped playing Warhammer out of my life completely but I still grabbed the occasional White Dwarf to keep up with stuff until even that tailed off and my money was better spent on clubbing and car stuff. This becomes a bit more relevant when I picked up 4th edition shortly before 5th came out and started collecting/playing again, so while my fluff knowledge is pretty extensive I missed out on a load of really cool stuff like Necromunda, BFG and 2nd-4th ed 40k. The old fluff comes to mind very quickly when people ask questions but my mid-era gaming experience is close to nothing.

wyvirn
08-02-2013, 18:28
Besides the IA books, the fact that chaos still uses the exact same technology as it did during the Horus Heresy. You would think think that they would have some innovations beyond 'dip it in the blood of murdered virgins'. I'm not saying they should be loyalists with demons, but technology from reconquered planets or recent traitors (unless they continue the trend of 'No Space Marine from this chapter has ever fallen to chaos!')

Ssilmath
08-02-2013, 21:43
I think that may have more to do with gameplay and story segregation. Granted, it would have been cool if there were rules for allying in units from Codex: Space Marines. Say, a special rule for Huron that lets you do so, but removes their ATSKNF special rule. I dunno how balanced that would be, but it sure would be flavorful.

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-02-2013, 22:01
I've been told that's how Huron rolled in 2nd edition.

pantsukki
08-02-2013, 23:09
CSM not having drop pods nor plasma cannons,


Obliterators use plasma gannons then? And didn't FW write rules for CSM pods?

Eldartank
09-02-2013, 01:16
This subject heading immediately made me think of the Terminator entry in the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex. The Wargear section in the area before the army listing dexcribed Terminator Armour as having a 2+ Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save, as well as making the wearer able to deep strike and fire Heavy Weapons while moving. In the army list entry for Space marine Terminators, it did not specifically mention "Terminator Armour" in the list of wargear for Space Marine Terminators.

I remember the ultra-rigid "rules as written" nazis popping out of the woodwork to make the claim that Space Marine Terminators did not have Terminator Armour because it wasn't specifically listed in their codex entry, and therefore did not have the 5+ Invulnerable Save or the ability to fire Heavy Weapons while moving. I think I remember that issue being quickly settled in a FAQ from GW. I do remember that I would refuse to even play a game with any of those "rules as written" nazis.

Lothlanathorian
09-02-2013, 06:08
I think I remember that issue being quickly settled in a FAQ from GW. I do remember that I would refuse to even play a game with any of those "rules as written" nazis.


Purely out of curiosity, how many games IRL did you turn down/refuse over this?

Lord Damocles
09-02-2013, 09:27
4th edition Marines were late to the party.

People tried to claim that Grey Knight Terminators didn't have Terminator Armour in 3rd edition to get the bonus of True Grit on their Storm Bolters.

Kiro
09-02-2013, 16:00
I remember the ultra-rigid "rules as written" nazis popping out of the woodwork to make the claim that Space Marine Terminators did not have Terminator Armour because it wasn't specifically listed in their codex entry, and therefore did not have the 5+ Invulnerable Save or the ability to fire Heavy Weapons while moving.

That's...insane!

Eldartank
09-02-2013, 21:01
Purely out of curiosity, how many games IRL did you turn down/refuse over this?

2 games, actually. But then, I generally won't play a game with ANY rules lawyers/nazis as a matter of principle. Most people assumed the Space Marine Terminator issue in the 4th Edition Codex was a typo and realized that something called "Space Marine TERMINATORS" would obviously be equipped with Terminator Armour.

;)

ehlijen
09-02-2013, 22:19
This subject heading immediately made me think of the Terminator entry in the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex. The Wargear section in the area before the army listing dexcribed Terminator Armour as having a 2+ Save and a 5+ Invulnerable Save, as well as making the wearer able to deep strike and fire Heavy Weapons while moving. In the army list entry for Space marine Terminators, it did not specifically mention "Terminator Armour" in the list of wargear for Space Marine Terminators.

I remember the ultra-rigid "rules as written" nazis popping out of the woodwork to make the claim that Space Marine Terminators did not have Terminator Armour because it wasn't specifically listed in their codex entry, and therefore did not have the 5+ Invulnerable Save or the ability to fire Heavy Weapons while moving. I think I remember that issue being quickly settled in a FAQ from GW. I do remember that I would refuse to even play a game with any of those "rules as written" nazis.

The best defence against that kind of ruleslawyering was to take as many combi weapons as possible, as the bolter part could be fired 'any number of times' according to the space marine codex, with no indication as to whether or not it meant per game or per turn.

NemoSD
09-02-2013, 22:44
The best defence against that kind of ruleslawyering was to take as many combi weapons as possible, as the bolter part could be fired 'any number of times' according to the space marine codex, with no indication as to whether or not it meant per game or per turn.

This deserves the Munchkin seal of approval :-p

Eldartank
10-02-2013, 00:50
The best defence against that kind of ruleslawyering was to take as many combi weapons as possible, as the bolter part could be fired 'any number of times' according to the space marine codex, with no indication as to whether or not it meant per game or per turn.

I hereby declare you the winner of this discussion. :)

Lothlanathorian
10-02-2013, 09:51
2 games, actually. But then, I generally won't play a game with ANY rules lawyers/nazis as a matter of principle. Most people assumed the Space Marine Terminator issue in the 4th Edition Codex was a typo and realized that something called "Space Marine TERMINATORS" would obviously be equipped with Terminator Armour.

;)

Thanks for the answer. I realize my question may have sounded a bit facetious, but, with internet hyperbole being what it is, I was genuinely curious of a real example.


The best defence against that kind of ruleslawyering was to take as many combi weapons as possible, as the bolter part could be fired 'any number of times' according to the space marine codex, with no indication as to whether or not it meant per game or per turn.

This is just fantastically epic.

TheDungen
10-02-2013, 10:25
except that if the specific rules does not openly contradict the main rules you just fall back on the main rules which states that model can shoot once in each turn. so yes the weapon might be ble to fire any number of times during a turn but the model carrying it is limited to once.

Angelwing
10-02-2013, 11:06
, as the bolter part could be fired 'any number of times'

Reminds me of the old necromunda rule that ratskin scouts and bounty hunters carried 'any number of knives'. One mate took a scout and wrote '1 million knives' in his equipment slot as a joke. Needless to say, somehow his scout got injured and rolled 'captured' twice. The victorious player was quite looking forward to selling the knives.....fortunately common sense prevailed and he was only allowed the number actually shown on the model.