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MarcoPollo
05-02-2013, 19:41
So what are the current Cheese lists?

I am not looking for a critique of Cheese as a game play style, or WAAC attitudes. But rather a list of one trick pony lists -(or parts of lists) that people see.

I hear that double DE hydra list is pretty cheesy. What else is out there right now?

outbreak
05-02-2013, 20:44
de with a shade star packing multiple characters that ends up making a unit worth over 1k points that is next to impossible to take out?
Irongut horde with double ironblasters and a couple of large units of mournfang?
most bad lists these days are when players go for deathstars

Lordcypress
05-02-2013, 20:50
Thorek ironbrow all gun line dwarf list castles up in the corner. He shoots you die. You move up you get shot and die. Thorek targets you, you move at half movement. Even if anything gets across the board a unit of slayers move out to intercept. Game over you lose.

warplock
05-02-2013, 21:37
Skaven double HPA. Vampire Counts Black Knight deathstar (10+ Black Knights, front rank is filled with Red Fury vamps and Wight Kings, and deletes everything it touches).

Orchid
05-02-2013, 22:44
I'm fairly new to warhammer, but could someone explain what's so effective about Shade deathstars?Aren't shades just lightly armoured scouting units? What's the advantage to making a huge unit with characters?

popisdead
05-02-2013, 23:14
I'm fairly new to warhammer, but could someone explain what's so effective about Shade deathstars?Aren't shades just lightly armoured scouting units? What's the advantage to making a huge unit with characters?

Nothing, just drop their init and pit of shades them.

m1acca1551
06-02-2013, 00:49
I'm fairly new to warhammer, but could someone explain what's so effective about Shade deathstars?Aren't shades just lightly armoured scouting units? What's the advantage to making a huge unit with characters?

Hi I, ws hatred, repeater hand bows deletes armour units, backed up by magic is a real pain to deal with, i have seen it once and because it is so rare there is no real counter apart from super spelling it as with every deathstar!

On topic,
-Skaven slave spam dual hellpits *shudders*
-DE dual hydra unkillable lord
-WoC unkillable disc lord i can see being particular cheesey, that and nurgle DP if allowed to cast spells
-Dwarf gunline can be seen as cheesy but on the other hand it's really the only viable build for the stunties! feels so good when you do get stuck in and crush them though!!!!
- anything from the daemons book
- teclis

:)

VampireOrcElf
06-02-2013, 02:40
i have a counter dwellers bellow

dementian
06-02-2013, 02:57
Teclis + BSB w Banner of World Dragon + Phoenix Guard (+d3 power dice banner) + Building (either fozriks folding or on the table to start)

Agoz
06-02-2013, 15:28
I'm fairly new to warhammer, but could someone explain what's so effective about Shade deathstars?Aren't shades just lightly armoured scouting units? What's the advantage to making a huge unit with characters?

Shadestar was more of a problem in 7th edition where skirmishers didn't have a hard formation and everyone in the unit could shoot.

DragonArmy
07-02-2013, 18:19
I disagree with most of these assessments.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Blkc57
07-02-2013, 18:48
Shadestar was more of a problem in 7th edition where skirmishers didn't have a hard formation and everyone in the unit could shoot.

Agoz is very correct, the days of fearing the Shadestar have long since passed. No one brings them anymore. Hard lists though eh? There are a few Daemons of Chaos lists that still have their share of nasty: things like the Jugg Roller and The Slaneesh leadership bomb *Shudders* thats a personal dislike of mine. Where I come from the Skaven Twin Towers lists are frowned upon: thats two aboms, a big block of clan rats with a Bell and a big block of plague monks with a furance, basically the entire army is practically unbreakable. (I'm not listing the entire list as there are a few other specials brought to take care of things like monsters and artillery) It doesn't sound impressive but it's the play style that annoys people, you kill one of their units to get a victory then park all of your blocks in a corner and dare your opponent to "Come at me, bro!" before time runs out in the game. Basically a massive points denial strategy.

Ummm other lists? Ah yes! The High elf ******** of the Folding Fortress! Hide a hundred archers, the flaming banner, and a level 4 Life or Shadow wizard with Book of Hoeth in a folding fortress and again dare your opponent to come at you. I've seen the un-killable ethereal Elven wizard also leave a nasty taste in some people's mouths, but that is just because they were never expecting it.

More? Well Slann's loaded down to the teeth with all the nasty benefits like Becalming Cog and Focused Rum, then supported by a max number of Sallies is not so much hated as frowned upon with phrases "Too obvious" and "Net-listing". As is the same thing for the Beastman Herdstone Spam with shadow.

The VC Rock Festival can be annoying to play against if your again unprepared for seeing it: its just massive number of Terrorgieshts, Banshees, and a Lord with the Skabarath sword all yelling at you all the time.

Sh4d0w
08-02-2013, 01:52
I disagree with most of these assessments.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Same, except teclis..he is one dirty dude.

rocdocta
08-02-2013, 02:58
LOL! i thought the thread was "most hated Chinese lists"...was thinking that i didnt know the chinese were a warhammer powerhouse. lol. i hate teclis.

DaemonReign
08-02-2013, 03:05
Don't have High Elves in our group (we did in 4th/5th but whatever) but Teclis is probably like 'the one thing' that could theorethically 'break' the sort of games we play.

Lord Dan
08-02-2013, 03:16
i didnt know the chinese were a warhammer powerhouse

我欢迎我们的中国人的霸主!

Back on topic, there aren't any set lists that pwn face these days. There are, however, some age-old brutal combinations and unit builds like Dual-ing Slaans, Shadow Teclis, Thorek's Omaha Beach party, etc.
-

GrandmasterWang
08-02-2013, 06:57
tomb kings horseman (not archer) spam.

Simply devastating

Kalandros
08-02-2013, 08:07
o: How is -anything- Tomb Kings included in "devastating" and "hated cheese list"? You have to tell me how it works haha.

And huh~
My LD Bomb Daemons will probably get me a lot of hate. One guy already called me "unscrupulous" for even thinking about going with it to an uncomped tournament... Yep.. Unscrupulous for playing a dice game with miniature toys~ Real genius.
LV4 Kipper with Siren Song, Allure, TzHerald BSB with 12" -2LD Banner, Masque, another TzHerald, with lore of Death.
Phantasmagoria spell (force an extra dice on LD test, drop lowest), -2LD Banner, Masque's -D3 LD to one unit, Doom&Darkness..
Yay~ :D

bad dice
08-02-2013, 13:16
o: How is -anything- Tomb Kings included in "devastating" and "hated cheese list"? You have to tell me how it works haha.

And huh~
My LD Bomb Daemons will probably get me a lot of hate. One guy already called me "unscrupulous" for even thinking about going with it to an uncomped tournament... Yep.. Unscrupulous for playing a dice game with miniature toys~ Real genius.
LV4 Kipper with Siren Song, Allure, TzHerald BSB with 12" -2LD Banner, Masque, another TzHerald, with lore of Death.
Phantasmagoria spell (force an extra dice on LD test, drop lowest), -2LD Banner, Masque's -D3 LD to one unit, Doom&Darkness..
Yay~ :D

Yay.
That list is getting you hated cause playing against it is no fun.
It wins by beeing so far removed from standard play it might as well be a other game.
So no fun for the other player

Vhaegar
08-02-2013, 14:23
o: How is -anything- Tomb Kings included in "devastating" and "hated cheese list"? You have to tell me how it works haha.

And huh~
My LD Bomb Daemons will probably get me a lot of hate. One guy already called me "unscrupulous" for even thinking about going with it to an uncomped tournament... Yep.. Unscrupulous for playing a dice game with miniature toys~ Real genius.
LV4 Kipper with Siren Song, Allure, TzHerald BSB with 12" -2LD Banner, Masque, another TzHerald, with lore of Death.
Phantasmagoria spell (force an extra dice on LD test, drop lowest), -2LD Banner, Masque's -D3 LD to one unit, Doom&Darkness..
Yay~ :D

Yeah if you brought the DoC ld bomb I'd agree with the "unscrupulous" comment. Doesn't matter that your playing a dice game with minis, your behavior is what warrants the comment.

But on topic I feel like death stars are pretty much cheese but not broken, I would try to kill the rest of their army as quick as possible.

I guess multiple stanks could be cheese but they usually blow themselves up, and become docile/destroyed for the remainder of the battle.

Kalandros
08-02-2013, 15:34
The reactions are as usual, uninformed at best.

You really believe playing StubbornHammer is any better? Having a LD10 stubborn pendant lord ruining your day, having a large stubborn deathstar to face, or any other such situation that break the mechanic just as much?
I've played the last 'ard boyz tournaments and faced Teclis and the likes, I don't whine about it, its a challenge. The LD Bomb is a reverse effect to the Stubborn issue. If you lose against my units, you break instead of staying stubborn for multiple rounds.

Play the game the way it is instead of being annoying about what a person takes to the table. If his list is legal and he doesn't cheat, you've no right to call him on his list, if you have house rules and comp packs - fine, but to an uncomped event? Gimme a break.

"Unscrupulous" is completely uncalled for.
I've held out on it for the almost 5 years its been available (release sometime in spring 2008? I forget) and now that a new Daemon book is upon us, I'm bringing it out to give everyone a last taste of 7th Daemons. :3

Ullis
08-02-2013, 20:43
The reactions are as usual, uninformed at best.

You really believe playing StubbornHammer is any better? Having a LD10 stubborn pendant lord ruining your day, having a large stubborn deathstar to face, or any other such situation that break the mechanic just as much?
I've played the last 'ard boyz tournaments and faced Teclis and the likes, I don't whine about it, its a challenge. The LD Bomb is a reverse effect to the Stubborn issue. If you lose against my units, you break instead of staying stubborn for multiple rounds.

Play the game the way it is instead of being annoying about what a person takes to the table. If his list is legal and he doesn't cheat, you've no right to call him on his list, if you have house rules and comp packs - fine, but to an uncomped event? Gimme a break.

"Unscrupulous" is completely uncalled for.
I've held out on it for the almost 5 years its been available (release sometime in spring 2008? I forget) and now that a new Daemon book is upon us, I'm bringing it out to give everyone a last taste of 7th Daemons. :3

There are those in the community who feel that "play the game in the spirit it is intended" trumps "play the game the way it is", but of course that is a matter of opinion. As a WHFB player for the past 20 years or so, I have met all types of player both in casual games as well as at tournaments but, I have seen a steady increase in those inclined to the WAAC ethos. GW games, indeed most tabletop games, are simply not designed to be played in a hyper-competitive way, in my opinion

I do agree though, that if you are playing in a tournament then you have to expect to face a lot of armies built by...mining the rules, in order to find a way to "min-max" their list. That is fair enough in those kind of events, if that is your thing. I can tell you from personal experience that nothing puts people off the hobby more than people rolling out power builds every game. You can call it a "challenge", but you know as well as I do, some armies are very unlikely to beat certain builds of other armies because, as I have mentioned, the game is not designed with tournaments in mind.

Personally, I do not get into to complaining about "cheesy" lists, but people are perfectly entitled to do so if it impinges on their enjoyment of the hobby.

Lordcypress
08-02-2013, 21:12
This is why I feel that the Swedish Comp system is the best system for Tournament play with comp restrictions. It really makes you pay dearly for taking powerful builds. You can still build powerful armies, you just get comped so low that its almost impossible for you to win the tournament without score 20 to 0 wins every game.

bad dice
08-02-2013, 21:51
The reactions are as usual, uninformed at best.

You really believe playing StubbornHammer is any better? Having a LD10 stubborn pendant lord ruining your day, having a large stubborn deathstar to face, or any other such situation that break the mechanic just as much?
I've played the last 'ard boyz tournaments and faced Teclis and the likes, I don't whine about it, its a challenge. The LD Bomb is a reverse effect to the Stubborn issue. If you lose against my units, you break instead of staying stubborn for multiple rounds.

Play the game the way it is instead of being annoying about what a person takes to the table. If his list is legal and he doesn't cheat, you've no right to call him on his list, if you have house rules and comp packs - fine, but to an uncomped event? Gimme a break.

"Unscrupulous" is completely uncalled for.
I've held out on it for the almost 5 years its been available (release sometime in spring 2008? I forget) and now that a new Daemon book is upon us, I'm bringing it out to give everyone a last taste of 7th Daemons. :3

Your a little full of your self maybe?

Large units being stubborn is not breaking the game. In fact the game is designed like that.
And if the LD bomb worked the way you point out that would not get so much negative press.

Al tough i must amid that being 8th realy made it a lot worse. AT least now it does need more skill then put thing whit terror nearby --> stack ld de buffs--> profit.

But the fact is that it leaves ppl feeling like they ran from something just cause you can stack a **** tonn of debuffs on top of each other. In stead of actualy beeing tacticly beaten.

Now granted in 8th it is not that bad but I think in 7th it was really a list that would win or lose just on the mach up regardless of the skill of the players involved. That is why it got hated so much.

Also you are absolutly right if there is no comp feel free to take whatever you want. Since it legal and its a competitive event after all.

Just keep in mind that if you take a list like the LD bomb you are going to end up leaving some of your opponents unhappy cause they had no chance to enjoy the game. They will know from deployment that they are going to lose and thus have to face about 2,5 hours of waiting for it to end. Nobody enjoys that .

The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between playing to win and playing for fun.

There is no problem whit trying to play to win. But when going to a tournament(specially small ones) you should realise not every one is there to win. And taking a list like the ld bomb will hurt those players enjoyment. Still nothing wrong whit that. But you should realise that and be a bit sensative to those players. And not try to bee all high and mighty cause you are allowed to and it's not illegal.

To make a very dirty comparison.
Useing you **** to paint the wall brown will work great, just don't expect manny ppl to come to the housewarming.

Lord Inquisitor
08-02-2013, 22:08
This is why I feel that the Swedish Comp system is the best system for Tournament play with comp restrictions. It really makes you pay dearly for taking powerful builds. You can still build powerful armies, you just get comped so low that its almost impossible for you to win the tournament without score 20 to 0 wins every game.
Ld bomb is penalised surprisingly little under that comp. It's a hefty hit, sure, but I can make a list with some concessions and score around 5 and without a greater daemon around 15.


Large units being stubborn is not breaking the game. In fact the game is designed like that.
Pretty sure the game is designed to work in a system of steadfast and ranks, not stubborn deathstars and not pendant/tzeentch characters that tarpit indefinitely.


The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between playing to win and playing for fun.
There's also judging a player on his sportsmanship and behaviour rather than how effective a combination of miniatures he puts on the table.

Kalandros
08-02-2013, 22:17
Your a little full of your self maybe?
Nope, I'm taking out a nasty army list for once in my 'warhammer career' before that list becomes invalid from a new army book to take on equally hard armies at an uncomped event.
And as the thread title suggests, we have the #1 hated cheese list here don't we?


Large units being stubborn is not breaking the game. In fact the game is designed like that.
And if the LD bomb worked the way you point out that would not get so much negative press.

If it didn't lower it enough, what would be the use of "Allure of Slaanesh" ability which is pretty much the only way my Keeper of Secrets can survive something that could kill it in 1-2 round(s)? T6 5W 5++ would be annihilated by a K'daii destroyer, Daemon Prince, etc and Siren Song hopes to protect it from Banishment which can kill it in one shot, Cannons, Hellblasters, dual Ironblasters, etc


Al tough i must amid that being 8th realy made it a lot worse. AT least now it does need more skill then put thing whit terror nearby --> stack ld de buffs--> profit.
But the fact is that it leaves ppl feeling like they ran from something just cause you can stack a **** tonn of debuffs on top of each other. In stead of actualy beeing tacticly beaten.

That the LD bonuses are so easy to come by AND the BSB grants a re-roll for ALL LD tests has toned it down a bit but it does remain incredibly potent if used properly - which I'm not sure I'll be able to, I've yet to play it and I'm trying it tomorrow morning.


Now granted in 8th it is not that bad but I think in 7th it was really a list that would win or lose just on the mach up regardless of the skill of the players involved. That is why it got hated so much.
Also you are absolutly right if there is no comp feel free to take whatever you want. Since it legal and its a competitive event after all.

Exactly...


Just keep in mind that if you take a list like the LD bomb you are going to end up leaving some of your opponents unhappy cause they had no chance to enjoy the game. They will know from deployment that they are going to lose and thus have to face about 2,5 hours of waiting for it to end. Nobody enjoys that .

The point I am trying to make is that there is a difference between playing to win and playing for fun.

I fully realize that, I've been playing Orcs&Goblins through the last half of 7th edition and most of 8th edition but I've decided I want to try something else - I've taken my fair share of defeates from Daemons in 7th and Ogre GutStars in 8th. It wasn't always fun for me but I'm not a spoilsport.


There is no problem whit trying to play to win. But when going to a tournament(specially small ones) you should realise not every one is there to win. And taking a list like the ld bomb will hurt those players enjoyment. Still nothing wrong whit that. But you should realise that and be a bit sensative to those players. And not try to bee all high and mighty cause you are allowed to and it's not illegal.

I think some people lose out their enjoyment even against Orcs&Goblins when they fail to win.


To make a very dirty comparison.
Useing you **** to paint the wall brown will work great, just don't expect manny ppl to come to the housewarming.

Technically it would be warming though....

I've previously had a discussion with Lord Inquisitor (which just posted while I was typing this up) and he has played the LD Bomb often in the past years. I've always enjoyed his battle reports and he did not win them all nor did he completely break the fun of others. Using the LD Bomb army is NOT an auto-win. Defeating a Stubborn Chosenstar unit requires you to successfully win a round of combat or do what Lord Inquisitor did - manage to make something die near it, causing a panic test which has been lowered from "easy to pass with re-roll" to "I might not make this!" - basically, putting basic rules back into usefulness - fear, panic, terror, allure of slaanesh, etc

The abusive parts from Daemon units being much better than some is of course a bit anoying as you can setup deployment to win "rock paper scissors" - and yet, what do you do against Undead armies? That Vampire Lord is still gonna just munch through the T3 and T4 daemons like its nothing. Those Terrorgheists can also just come up and kill the Keeper of Secrets with a dual scream, "oh hey, my army can't beat everything easily? But Whineseer people told me it was the cheesiest filthiest list?!?!" - Be realistic, yes its a list thats very hard to handle especially if you've never faced it before - deal with it like I had to deal with Teclis, Gutstars, Dark Elf power lists, 12+ power dice Vamps or Daemons in 7th ed, etc. Stop being a poor sport by whining about what the opponent brought.

So in closing, calling it "unscrupulous" is wrong. Incredibly wrong. Especially when I plan to use this to a 6-games uncomped tournament with 52 players.
Especially when I have faced the same Dark Elf, WoC and Ogres power lists in the last 2 tournaments of the same kind, I'm bringing out my power list, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean you have to insult the one using it.

Also, Page 5. Yes, thats from the Warma/Hordes rulebook. Go read it. In a competitive environment, it can be applied to every game. Even more so in an uncomped competitive event.

bad dice
08-02-2013, 22:25
Ld bomb is penalised surprisingly little under that comp. It's a hefty hit, sure, but I can make a list with some concessions and score around 5 and without a greater daemon around 15.


Well I gues that is cause its such a one trick pony sure you might roll over LD based armies but undead(or other unbreakble units) will not be effected by most of that stuff.



Pretty sure the game is designed to work in a system of steadfast and ranks, not stubborn deathstars and not pendant/tzeentch characters that tarpit indefinitely.


Yea those are new CW characters are lame. But Stubborn deathstars just kill the dude whit the crown and it's gone.
I also menat the game is designed to work around steadfast and ranks. I keep forgetting that stubborn makes you steadfast and not the other way around so I call it by the wrong name. But I meant that the game should involve ranked units fighting ranked units




There's also judging a player on his sportsmanship and behaviour rather than how effective a combination of miniatures he puts on the table.



Scoring a player 1 out of 5 for sportmanship is not the same as haveing a fun game. Personally i think it would be much much better if comp and sportmanship scoring was not needed to encourage sportman like behaviour

Kalandros
08-02-2013, 22:37
just kill the dude whit the crown and it's gone.
What if its a T5 Slaughtermaster with Glittering Scales and Fencer's Blades? You hit him on a 6 only and he probably threw Death Magic at you while you got there or he got to you
What if its a T5 Chaos Lord with a 1+/3++, reroll 1s/2++ vs fire?
What if its a T4 Dread Lord on Dark Pegasus with a 1+/"2++" (pendant)
What if its a Bret Lord with whatever saves and he has ASF + HKB or on the Lv4 Prophetess thats' dead center of the unit and has 2++ vs Death Snipe? (Magic Resist and 4+ ward -> 2++)
What if its a 2+/4++/2++vs fire Castellan or Lv4 Wizard from Chaos Dwarfs and the K'daii is like "Hell no! Don't touch my boss!"
What if you can't actually win a round of close combat against it because it puts out an insane amount of attacks (Savage Orcs, Warriors of Chaos, etc)

Easier said than actually done in the game.
Stubborn Crown is 35 pts and almost everyone takes it and its just as broken as taking the LD bomb.

bad dice
08-02-2013, 22:40
So in closing, calling it "unscrupulous" is wrong. Incredibly wrong. Especially when I plan to use this to a 6-games uncomped tournament with 52 players.
Especially when I have faced the same Dark Elf, WoC and Ogres power lists in the last 2 tournaments of the same kind, I'm bringing out my power list, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean you have to insult the one using it.

Also, Page 5. Yes, thats from the Warma/Hordes rulebook. Go read it. In a competitive environment, it can be applied to every game. Even more so in an uncomped competitive event.

Well the danger of the internet. Strikes again. Its hard to get the meaning of what ppl are trying to say just from text
Let me me point out that I don't think that ppl should be insulted for there list. But I do think they should realise that other ppl might find thier list unsporting. I kinda assumed that your "friend" jokeingly called you unscrupulous. Not insultingly.

Also ppl who thing loseing is always no fun are........ well lets just say I would use a less then favourable term for them.
I mean you can (and should) still try and have fun if your loseing. (I generaly fall back on calling my under preforming troops funny names)

But one think plz don't bring up page 5.
It's not that I can't find myself in what it is trying to say. And considering the way WM/H works it does realy work well whit that game. In fact I think that WM/H hordes is one game that is the most fun if you go balls to the walls and play whit a pair. Since it was designed whit competitive play in mind. But page 5 has a long, long, long history of beeing used as a excuse for beeing a tool.
That it has been spoiled for ever in my mind.

It message is after all is not: do every think to win. But more don't hold back and go all in.
Which is the way you win WM/H games.

P.s OMG THE TYPOS I must be going blind

bad dice
08-02-2013, 22:46
What if its a T5 Slaughtermaster with Glittering Scales and Fencer's Blades? You hit him on a 6 only and he probably threw Death Magic at you while you got there or he got to you
What if its a T5 Chaos Lord with a 1+/3++, reroll 1s/2++ vs fire?
What if its a T4 Dread Lord on Dark Pegasus with a 1+/"2++" (pendant)
What if its a Bret Lord with whatever saves and he has ASF + HKB or on the Lv4 Prophetess thats' dead center of the unit and has 2++ vs Death Snipe? (Magic Resist and 4+ ward -> 2++)
What if its a 2+/4++/2++vs fire Castellan or Lv4 Wizard from Chaos Dwarfs and the K'daii is like "Hell no! Don't touch my boss!"
What if you can't actually win a round of close combat against it because it puts out an insane amount of attacks (Savage Orcs, Warriors of Chaos, etc)

Easier said than actually done in the game.
Stubborn Crown is 35 pts and almost everyone takes it and its just as broken as taking the LD bomb.

Winning should not be easy ;-)

That said killing of characters has never been easyer then in 8th since now every model gets to attack back.
Also deathstars get no love from me but better not to fight them head on except whit your own death star if you got em

Rake
09-02-2013, 08:02
So pretty much everybody agrees on the cheese lists, except those who use them or are planning to use them... Smell the hypocrisy?

Kalandros
09-02-2013, 11:30
So pretty much everybody agrees on the cheese lists, except those who use them or are planning to use them... Smell the hypocrisy?

The hypocrisy however, is both ways. As there are areas where its "Bring your best" and there are areas where its "use this comp pack". So the comped camp has a bitter view of 'cheese lists' while the other camp has a bitter view of comp packs.

Kalandros
10-02-2013, 00:37
Just had a game against Chaos Dwarfs, I didn't bring The Masque, but I had the 3 other elements - LV4 Kipper with Siren Song, tzeentch BSb with despair banner, tzeentch herald with death..
I got stomped hard but managed to win due to the scenario.

Ash Storm for 3 turns on my Keeper - Cannot March, Cannot Charge and Cannot Cast Spells (cause I have no augments for her anyway) and makes you flammable - this spell is completely broken haha, but my opponent whined about the one purple sun I 6 diced through which killed 2 machines... >_>
Masque would've been a whole lot helpful, but without The Masque, the "LD Bomb" elements of my list did not have a great impact in this game.

Cheese vs Cheese eh?

Da Crusha
10-02-2013, 10:24
Just had a game against Chaos Dwarfs, I didn't bring The Masque, but I had the 3 other elements - LV4 Kipper with Siren Song, tzeentch BSb with despair banner, tzeentch herald with death..
I got stomped hard but managed to win due to the scenario.

Ash Storm for 3 turns on my Keeper - Cannot March, Cannot Charge and Cannot Cast Spells (cause I have no augments for her anyway) and makes you flammable - this spell is completely broken haha, but my opponent whined about the one purple sun I 6 diced through which killed 2 machines... >_>
Masque would've been a whole lot helpful, but without The Masque, the "LD Bomb" elements of my list did not have a great impact in this game.

Cheese vs Cheese eh?

so what did the chaos dwarf player bring that was so cheesy? ashstorm is just one spell, a nerf spell at that. purple sun could devastate a chaos dwarf army with a single casting.

Von Wibble
10-02-2013, 13:45
tomb kings horseman (not archer) spam.

Simply devastating

You win the thread :evilgrin:

Lord Inquisitor
10-02-2013, 20:00
Well I gues that is cause its such a one trick pony sure you might roll ove LD based armies but undead(or other unbreakble units) will not be effected by most of that stuff.
If you think it is a one trick pony you are grossly underestimating it. Undead are more resistant because they can't break, sure, but there's plenty of things undead can be forced to make Ld tests on (march, swift/combat reforms, spell-inflicted stupidity, Ld-test-to-attack, crumble tests), but even then, the real nastiness in the Ld bomb is that it only costs a relatively small portion of your army and you can still have a functional army as well.


Yea those are new CW characters are lame. But Stubborn deathstars just kill the dude whit the crown and it's gone.
I also menat the game is designed to work around steadfast and ranks. I keep forgetting that stubborn makes you steadfast and not the other way around so I call it by the wrong name. But I meant that the game should involve ranked units fighting ranked units
Killing the stubborn character is easier said than done, most people will have him sufficiently protected/hanging out in the back rank to keep him safe. You wanna get rid of my stubborn crown, you'd better bring a big stick because the ogre wearing it doesn't want to let it go :p

I agree, the game is meant to be about blocks of troops and cavalry without spamming characters and stubborn. However, intentional or not, the rules reward concentration of force and the safety-net that stubborn provides. With stubborn in particular I can't believe that this isn't intended - after all if you make Stubborn transfer from a character onto his unit and give a dirt-cheap enchanted item available to all armies what do you expect? Especially since stubborn gets an exception to all the terrain effects that cancel steadfast.


Scoring a player 1 out of 5 for sportmanship is not the same as haveing a fun game. Personally i think it would be much much better if comp and sportmanship scoring was not needed to encourage sportman like behaviour
But comp scoring and sports scoring are very different beasts, made for different reasons. Sports scoring are a carrot and stick designed to give a bit of incentive to keep civil. Comp scoring is another creature entirely - the comp score is meant to encourage players to take less optimum choices in the interest of variety and more fun list. Bringing a list should be considered distinct from being a good sportsman. I mean, imagine that being claimed in actual sports. Being a good sport doesn't mean trying not to win or using sub-optimal gear or tactics.


So pretty much everybody agrees on the cheese lists, except those who use them or are planning to use them... Smell the hypocrisy?
I don't think anyone said lists like the Ld bomb aren't "cheesy". I'm well aware of how annoying and frustrating the Ld bomb is to play against. As for hypocrisy, I think that simply playing with the maximum power level you can under whatever comp you choose to use is the fairest way to play. I see no great virtue in "you can bring an army that is designed to win as long as it doesn't cross an arbitrary line of 'too good'."


so what did the chaos dwarf player bring that was so cheesy? ashstorm is just one spell, a nerf spell at that. purple sun could devastate a chaos dwarf army with a single casting.
There are a few things in a chaos dwarf list that come to mind. ;)

Kalandros
10-02-2013, 20:12
K'daii destroyer, had it not failed its LD for Frenzy to run straight into my poisonous reroll to wound plague bearers, it would've been game over for me (he kept it 14" from his LD10 Lord by mistake)
2 Magma cannons, destroying 20 bloodletters before I could get to combat as well as killing a Fiend in one shot (thats lucky) and almost dealing D3*2 Wounds (Flammable from ash storm) to my Keeper but I managed my 5+ ward ...
And both blocks of his are Stubborn 10 Rerollable. (Castellan is stubborn by default, Crown of Command on his Wizard Lord)

Lore of Hashut is on equal cheese with Lore of Death.
That Flames of Azgoth spell is incredibly overpowering, had he scored a hit on my Keeper, a T4 test (T6-2) or I remove her from the table? And if it scatters just a bit, S6 D6 Wounds?! Even the large template doesn't scatter more than D6", this can wipe out entire units just like my purple sun can wipe out his entire units.

Ash Storm being an easy spell to cast for its super long list of effects is complete BS.

Da Crusha
10-02-2013, 21:17
K'daii destroyer, had it not failed its LD for Frenzy to run straight into my poisonous reroll to wound plague bearers, it would've been game over for me (he kept it 14" from his LD10 Lord by mistake)
2 Magma cannons, destroying 20 bloodletters before I could get to combat as well as killing a Fiend in one shot (thats lucky) and almost dealing D3*2 Wounds (Flammable from ash storm) to my Keeper but I managed my 5+ ward ...
And both blocks of his are Stubborn 10 Rerollable. (Castellan is stubborn by default, Crown of Command on his Wizard Lord)

Lore of Hashut is on equal cheese with Lore of Death.
That Flames of Azgoth spell is incredibly overpowering, had he scored a hit on my Keeper, a T4 test (T6-2) or I remove her from the table? And if it scatters just a bit, S6 D6 Wounds?! Even the large template doesn't scatter more than D6", this can wipe out entire units just like my purple sun can wipe out his entire units.

Ash Storm being an easy spell to cast for its super long list of effects is complete BS.

hmm, so pretty much he used a typical chaos dwarf list. I just don't think of it as cheesy. there are only so many viable lists with chaos dwarfs and they all have the same basic things.

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 02:34
hmm, so pretty much he used a typical chaos dwarf list. I just don't think of it as cheesy. there are only so many viable lists with chaos dwarfs and they all have the same basic things.

K'daii, magma cannons, lore of hashut and the chalice are what makes it cheesy. Its not because something is "staple" to an army that it isn't cheesy.

Da Crusha
11-02-2013, 02:48
agree to disagree

Lord Dan
11-02-2013, 02:51
Its not because something is "staple" to an army that it isn't cheesy.

Agreed, it's because something was written by Forgeworld that it's cheesy. It's like those guys don't even play.

Da Crusha
11-02-2013, 02:57
Im still trying to come up with a super cheese list for the chaos dwarfs, if anybody wants to help with that throw out some suggestions. I was thinking all of the above mentioned except less chaos dwarfs IG and many more cheap hobgoblins with steadfast. so pretty much goblins with big war machines and a destroyer. would that be cheesier?

Sh4d0w
11-02-2013, 03:01
To Lord Kalandros and Lord Inquisitor..........come on guys, you are really arguing this hard about it? I have also played LD bomb list for a while now (1 year about) and it really does ruin the game for people, because it comes down to whether or not they can pass a LD test, really that's all the game revolves around, not fun. You also say that when you come up against vampires and tomb kings and you're suddenly "screwed" that's absolute rubbish, the bloodletters/daemonettes can still scythe through anything in that the vampire lists and tomb kings still don't have that much to take you, sure if they bring a khaleida or however you spell the name +90 bowman lists it will obviously fair pretty well against this list but just because something can be beaten doesn't make it not dirty.

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2013, 04:08
Sh4d0w ... I do not think I have said what you think I have said. Perhaps read what I have written again?

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 04:38
I ain't no Lord... haha.
We're not arguing LD Bomb list isn't cheese nor entirely fun to face (I wouldn't mind, because I know what to expect).

Also I think you're missing the issue... previous editions didn't have easy LD9-10 rerollable stubborn and rerollable panic/other tests like that. The LD Bomb list is like throwing you back to the basic rules where panic, fear, etc actually work!
The problem is it can take you down to an extremely unpleasant LD level - if it were limited it would be a bit better but I agree right now it can just drop you to 16% or less chance of passing - but at the same time, if I dip even a lil in LD bomb, I need to make sure it works on my side as well - the game I didn't have The Masque and couldn't exactly place my LD elements where I wanted them I almost lost - to that chaos dwarf list.

What use is "allure of slaanesh" gift if you have LD9/10 rerollable and have some monstrously powerful thing that can chop my 625 pts General in one round? (K'daii for example)

Anyway, that Chaos Dwarf players' list is at its most competitive and solid to work with the scenarios we are offered in the 6 games uncomped tournament, so its no wonder a solid list like mine had a hard time against a solid list like his - it was all decided by dice honestly.

Lv4 Hashut with 2+ armor save, 4++ ward and whatever else
Lv1 Fire engineer with chalice
Lv1 Fire engineer with scroll
you have no idea how annoying his 2d6/3d6 fireball spam was after the Lord died.
Castellan BSB with Mask of the Furnace (2+ armor, 4++, 2++ vs fire)
2 Khans on wolves

2x25 core dwarfs with shields - both blocks stubborn from characters and steadfast long enough otherwise
2x20 hobgoblins with shields - purely for objectives in our scenarios

2 Magma Cannons
1 Deathshriek

K'daii

It all works in synergy and incredibly dangerous with Ash Storm.

Anyway, if I play a 625pts Keeper of Secrets, I need to keep her alive.
The only way she doesn't bite it from 2 cannon balls in a row or a single banishment (3d6 S6 or more and I must reroll every ward I pass..) is to Siren Song something to keep me in close combat ASAP and then rampage.
That Chaos Dwarf player knew it and fled with his unit and kept me grounded with Ash Storm and was lucky enough to do 3 wounds with his 1 flame cannon hit on my fiend to stop me from eating his fleeing unit - it all worked perfectly for him on dice. He didn't manage to score any Hits on my Keeper with his Deathshriek, Flames of Azgoth or Magma Cannons while she was flammable but she'd have been easily removed right there and then had it happened...

So I think we had equally powerful list where dice would swing things one way or the other.
We both whined about each other's "abusive elements" and thats that.

Lord Dan
11-02-2013, 04:59
What purpose do the Khans on wolves serve in that list, Kalandros?

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 05:04
What purpose do the Khans on wolves serve in that list, Kalandros?

against my greenskins, one ate up a mangler squig, the other, due to better initiative, killed my own goblin big boss on wolf that was going after his war machines... x;
against my daemons, he killed one herald of tzeentch before being killed, the other tried to get 4S5 attacks (spear + potion of foolhardiness) charging in the flank but I warded 2 of his 3 wounds and he broke and never rallied.

against bretons I saw him go after the trebuchets and bowmen quite effectively.

Da Crusha
11-02-2013, 11:32
@kalandros: so the chaos dwarf list was cheesy because it almost killed your 625 point monster with about 700 points of his army? let me guess, empire is cheesy because its 200 points of cannons can kill your 625 pt monster also? :rolleyes:

sarcasm aside. yeah that cd list does have good synergy but units of 20 and 25 just isn't where it's at now a days. when I see stuff like that, they just get steam rolled by powerful units like grave guard and executioner hordes. the stubborn character is easily killed with killing blow and high strength attacks.

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2013, 11:53
hmm, so pretty much he used a typical chaos dwarf list. I just don't think of it as cheesy. there are only so many viable lists with chaos dwarfs and they all have the same basic things.

Funny how that is ... one man's cheese is another man's "typical list".

The same basic things every CD list has - the destroyer. That's a couple of hundred points undercosted for what you get, which is the toughest monster out there and with enough offensive power to wreck whole regiments or take on tooled-up greater daemons worth double its points. Magma cannons - an absurd artillery piece capable of levelling whole units of infantry/MI. No other war machine in the game has that kind of utterly reliable offensive damage against infantry. Sorcerer lords are a nice, rock hard level 4 choice before you consider they seem to get a free engineer ability better than the empire engineer ability with the best 8th edition army book spell lore bar none. Oh and a free magic weapon too. Then you've got hobgoblin khans, one of the best if not the best spammable redirector.

If you're throwing down 2-3 magma cannons, destroyer, 3+ hobgoblin khans, that's a "cheesy" list indeed.

Da Crusha
11-02-2013, 12:11
If you're throwing down 2-3 magma cannons, destroyer, 3+ hobgoblin khans, that's a "cheesy" list indeed.

when I wrote that it was a typical list he said he had 2 magma cannons, a level 4 hashut wiz, 2 blocks of IG and a destroyer. not plus 3+ khans and a 3rd magma cannon.

also, hellcannon and trebuchet are just as effective as the magma cannon. and the sorceror lord ought to be tough, it cost an average of 400 points,... and its still not a very good fighter.

Bloodedsoul
11-02-2013, 16:07
I may have misunderstood your post, and if I did, my apologies, but why is it your 400 point level 4 lord should be tough and the 625 point kipper not be just as tough? It's a toughness 6 5 wound monster with a 5 up wardsave. The leadership bomb is one of the ways you have of trying to protect it. I have yet to see how that can be called cheesy but the above list for chaos dwarves not be called cheesy (personally I'm a big fan of play whats in the book no restrictions, but I do get my butt kicked a lot).

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 16:19
I may have misunderstood your post, and if I did, my apologies, but why is it your 400 point level 4 lord should be tough and the 625 point kipper not be just as tough? It's a toughness 6 5 wound monster with a 5 up wardsave. The leadership bomb is one of the ways you have of trying to protect it. I have yet to see how that can be called cheesy but the above list for chaos dwarves not be called cheesy (personally I'm a big fan of play whats in the book no restrictions, but I do get my butt kicked a lot).

I'm a fan of uncomped as well, doesn't mean I can't find things over the top, Daemons have a few ways to do this but 8th edition has toned them down quite a lot.

@kalandros: so the chaos dwarf list was cheesy because it almost killed your 625 point monster with about 700 points of his army? let me guess, empire is cheesy because its 200 points of cannons can kill your 625 pt monster also?

No, its cheesy because it is too much above the power level of other things.
325 pts for the k'daii for M9, up to 9 S7 Attacks, 4+ ward, T6 6W, non-magical attacks must re-roll to wound, causes S4 contact hit to every model with its 100mm frontage, 150mm flanks. Its only drawback is Frenzy.
Thats better than a T6 5W 5+ ward Keeper of Secrets that costs me 625 pts.

The Flames of Azgoth spell, causing S6 D6 Wounds is on equal grounds with purple sun and dwellers - thats fine, but the middle hole being a T test at -2 or instant death is an insanely overpowered effect.

The Ash Storm spell compounds so many effects it doesn't make sense that it doesn't at least have a boosted 25+ version or something. Imagine being able to cast a single spell from Lore of Shadow that would reduce all stats by -D3 (WS BS I S T and might as well add A and LD) without needing to boost. On top of being unable to charge, march, cast spells, being at -1 to hit in CC, -2 to hit with BS weapons, you become Flammable, getting double the wounds from flaming attacks which makes up for the majority of the CD's big toys - K'daii, Magma Cannon, Deathshriek incendiary, Flames of Azgoth, etc So something without ever a possibility of a look out, sir! needs pure luck to survive, not strategy nor tactics.

That is my gripe. Luck vs Strategy. They throw out the strategic elements out the window and ask you to survive the Random Number Generators too much. (Which on a S5 D3W template is somewhat skewed in the favor of the chaos dwarf player). So even though I won the scenario, it wasn't due to strategy or tactics in the spur of the moment, its because I dodged a bullet.

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2013, 18:08
when I wrote that it was a typical list he said he had 2 magma cannons, a level 4 hashut wiz, 2 blocks of IG and a destroyer. not plus 3+ khans and a 3rd magma cannon.

Oh... Only two magma cannons, destroyer and level 4 hashut?


also, hellcannon and trebuchet are just as effective as the magma cannon.
Um, no, no they are not. Thankfully. They have the decency to miss occasionally.


and the sorceror lord ought to be tough, it cost an average of 400 points,... and its still not a very good fighter.
A level 4 is 300 points. Let's compare it with an Empire wizard (200 points):
- Better profile in combat than a General of the Empire.
- 4+ armour (and access to magic armour).
- Immune to Psych

That's above and beyond the normal Chaos Dwarf things (T5, M3, relentless, contempt etc).

I'd say that's worth rather more than 100 points.

If you want to claim Chaos Dwarfs aren't cheesy, you'd be better off focussing on the stuff they don't do so well. Magma cannons, sorcerer-prophets and Destroyers are all undercosted in any kind of comparison. You have here one of the best level 4 wizards, the best anti-infantry artillery piece and the best monster (hands down!) in the game. You're going to have a hard time persuading anyone that they "aren't that bad" or "ought to be that good".

Xerkics
11-02-2013, 18:21
I was going to say anything with a slaan is cheesy but i guess there Are non abusive slaan builds

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 18:23
Also vial of blood of hashut, thrown in close combat, hits on a 2+, causes D6 Lore of Metal hits, no armor saves, flaming. If your armored hero isn't with 2++ vs fire, he's toast.. (:
Thats like 20 pts or something I think.

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2013, 18:24
The double-slaan build is always pretty mean, especially at 3K points. Shadow+Life (reduce your strength and then dwellers!). Or Light + Death and have a flying Slaan hopping around the board (heh, hopping) and death sniping everyone with Ld10.

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 18:42
Slanns are LD9 so, LD9 Spirit Leech.

Vamp Lord with a bunch of Lv1 Death in a large unit of black knights is also quite the death snipe bus~ at LD 10 in this case.

Laniston
11-02-2013, 18:43
I like my cheese with Ritz instead of whine.

But "cheesy" lists are fine for me. The options in your army book and the items and spells in the rulebook you have access to should mean that people can use whatever tools they have at their disposal. I can't really control what people bring but I can control how I react to a list in my tactics and my personal behaviour.

That said I am the kind of player who makes lists that include elements I think will be fun. If I take Teclis it's going to be because I think in that army he would be fun. ( I just made an army of 6 tiranoc chariots, 2 lions chariots, a bunch of eagles, and some spearelves + Teclis and some Shadow warriors even.) But it's sad that I have this cool character who if I take for my reasoning will get me annoyed scoffs and complaints from certain people.

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2013, 18:57
Slanns are LD9 so, LD9 Spirit Leech.

Vamp Lord with a bunch of Lv1 Death in a large unit of black knights is also quite the death snipe bus~ at LD 10 in this case.

Huh. I guess I ran into one with Standard of Discipline at some point in the past and just assumed they were Ld10 naturally.

I've always been suspicious that that FAQ really works like that, but it seems to be widely accepted that way. I still think it's dumb.

HalfBlood
12-02-2013, 04:03
I am a Daemon /Wood Elf Player, but recently I have started Chaos Dwarves. They are a pretty strong army. They do have some "must take" units, but then again every army does. The K'daai has come up a bunch of times through out this thread. However all i hear is complete whining. How about we collaborate and figure out how to counter it? From my comp games against friends, I find that the Dragonbane gem is really a complete counter to him. 2++ against flaming just shuts him down. Also redirecting him can throw him off course buying you significant turns (Remember hes Frenzied). He also has to test on T tests or lose wounds. He rarely fails, but when he does it can really put off a few extra wounds. A few games back, it ended up killing him. Now don't get me wrong, the K'daai should cost around 400 points, but his cost wont change for awhile. So why not think of counters?


I'm a fan of uncomped as well, doesn't mean I can't find things over the top, Daemons have a few ways to do this but 8th edition has toned them down quite a lot.

No, its cheesy because it is too much above the power level of other things.
325 pts for the k'daii for M9, up to 9 S7 Attacks, 4+ ward, T6 6W, non-magical attacks must re-roll to wound, causes S4 contact hit to every model with its 100mm frontage, 150mm flanks. Its only drawback is Frenzy.
Thats better than a T6 5W 5+ ward Keeper of Secrets that costs me 625 pts.




Well first off the Keeper of Secrets is 450 Base (Not 625) You get 6 Attacks -4 to armor. ASF, Reroll to hit(Almost always), Usually hit on 3s(Almost always), lastly you get demonic Instability. For 5 extra points you get another attack, have access to Siren Song (...).



I'm a fan of uncomped as well, doesn't mean I can't find things over the top, Daemons have a few ways to do this but 8th edition has toned them down quite a lot.

The Flames of Azgoth spell, causing S6 D6 Wounds is on equal grounds with purple sun and dwellers - thats fine, but the middle hole being a T test at -2 or instant death is an insanely overpowered effect.


I have abused Daemonic Magic, and Flames of Azgorh is no where near as powerful as Daemonic Magic. Daemons have access to any Warhammer Rulebook lore (with all spells) for a minimal down payment of 20 points... Not to mention all of the broken combos you can create. (Dwellers + Enfeebling Foe used to be my favorite). Just watch as any unit would become almost nothing after a turn of magic. Flames of Azgorh is a strong ability, but it does scatter making it a bit unreliable. Also Look out Sirs are allowed against both the S6 hit, and the T test. I don't see Look out Sirs against Dwellers....





The Ash Storm spell compounds so many effects it doesn't make sense that it doesn't at least have a boosted 25+ version or something. Imagine being able to cast a single spell from Lore of Shadow that would reduce all stats by -D3 (WS BS I S T and might as well add A and LD) without needing to boost. On top of being unable to charge, march, cast spells, being at -1 to hit in CC, -2 to hit with BS weapons, you become Flammable, getting double the wounds from flaming attacks which makes up for the majority of the CD's big toys - K'daii, Magma Cannon, Deathshriek incendiary, Flames of Azgoth, etc So something without ever a possibility of a look out, sir! needs pure luck to survive, not strategy nor tactics.


I love how you exaggerate a ton about Ash Storm. It does not affect your stat line at all. Therefore it does no (WS,BS,S,T,I,A,LD) modifiers. Yes it makes you -1 to hit in CC, -2 to hit in Shooting, cannot march or charge, wizards cannot cast, and makes you flammable. Remember being flammable only matters if you have multiple wounds. In the Warhammer Rule Book it says "If a model with this rule suffers an unsaved wound from a flaming attack then that model receives double wounds." Ash Storm is designed to counter the players who run death stars. I find the best way to work around the spell is to run multiple viable targets. The spell is good so don't get me wrong, just not as powerful as the dreaded Dwellers.

Kalandros
12-02-2013, 06:29
Please, don't give me a comparison of a base price Keeper to a K'daii, that just does not work at all. 450 pts for the Keeper is too expensive for what it gets.

I've got a bunch of counters to the K'daii but they rely on reaching the k'daii in the first place which isn't easy. That game I played I got lucky and he failed his LD test on Frenzy and closest unit was the magic poison reroll to wound plaguebearer unit. Yay~
Had he not failed, he was heading for the back of my army, reaching the objective on turn 3 and then rearing me for the rest of the game.

Its not only too mobile but too solid and too good in close combat, its got everything going for it except 2+ ward save heroes/lords that have to go out of their way to get him.
Oh sure I popped one in a single charge from my Black Orc Warboss going WAAAGH and having 2+ ward vs fire. Without that one model - my army was doomed and I lost bitterly even after getting rid of the k'daii, due to flame cannons (burnt through my ranks) and Flames of Azgoth (killed my Arachnarok, D6 scatter on a 100x150 base... yea...). Chalice also completely shut down my orc's magic phase.

Chaos Dwarf toys like that are the cheese.

And my comparison to lore of shadow about ash storm wasn't innacurate, I'm stating that its the same as getting 3 spells in one from Lore of Shadows, it quite effectively shuts down or dooms a unit.

Da Crusha
12-02-2013, 09:15
No, its cheesy because it is too much above the power level of other things.
325 pts for the k'daii for M9, up to 9 S7 Attacks, 4+ ward, T6 6W, non-magical attacks must re-roll to wound, causes S4 contact hit to every model with its 100mm frontage, 150mm flanks. Its only drawback is Frenzy.
Thats better than a T6 5W 5+ ward Keeper of Secrets that costs me 625 pts.
you're leaving stuff out though. the destroyer also has to pass a T test or takes D3 wounds from turn 2 onward. Ive lost him to failing the test on turns 2 and 3 without dealing a single wound. and you forgot to factor in that your keeper of secrets is a level 4 wizard. that is not something you could just forget to mention when comparing units. being a level 4 wizard is huge!



The Flames of Azgoth spell, causing S6 D6 Wounds is on equal grounds with purple sun and dwellers - thats fine, but the middle hole being a T test at -2 or instant death is an insanely overpowered effect. still not better than purple sun and dwellers.






If you want to claim Chaos Dwarfs aren't cheesy, you'd be better off focussing on the stuff they don't do so well. Magma cannons, sorcerer-prophets and Destroyers are all undercosted in any kind of comparison. You have here one of the best level 4 wizards, the best anti-infantry artillery piece and the best monster (hands down!) in the game. You're going to have a hard time persuading anyone that they "aren't that bad" or "ought to be that good". [/COLOR]
level 4 vamps, greater deamons and warriors of chaos are the best wizards in the game. you can't just compare the worst statline (level 4 empire) and the prophet. lets not forget if he miscasts he must pass a T test or take an additional wound. 2 wounds for one miscast is unheard of. if he fails thou he will get the +1 T for the rest of the game though but just a single wound left. the hell cannon and trebuchet are just as effective if not better than magma cannons. the destroyer is one of the best but he's no level 4 on top of all that like greater deamons are.


Also vial of blood of hashut, thrown in close combat, hits on a 2+, causes D6 Lore of Metal hits, no armor saves, flaming. If your armored hero isn't with 2++ vs fire, he's toast.. (:
Thats like 20 pts or something I think. you keep leaving stuff out, its also one use only.



I may have misunderstood your post, and if I did, my apologies, but why is it your 400 point level 4 lord should be tough and the 625 point kipper not be just as tough? It's a toughness 6 5 wound monster with a 5 up wardsave. The leadership bomb is one of the ways you have of trying to protect it. I have yet to see how that can be called cheesy but the above list for chaos dwarves not be called cheesy (personally I'm a big fan of play whats in the book no restrictions, but I do get my butt kicked a lot).

misunderstood a little bit,... the prophet is Tough but WS5 S4 T5 A3 W3 with a 4+ and 4++. the keeper is much meaner.

Kalandros
12-02-2013, 09:33
So are we gonna keep going in circles about the Tamurkhan book now? And give specific situational events like rolling a 6 on that T test to lose D3 wounds on your underpriced monster?

My point stands, 625 for the keeper, LV4, Siren Song, Allure of slaanesh, Torment blade, is way too expensive.
325 pts for the K'daii is way too cheap.

Chaos Dwarfs aren't a soft army
Daemons of Chaos aren't a soft army

I'd rather face Teclis or my own daemon LD bomb list than face the same CD list again, played it twice and do not want to play against it ever again. Its just not fun to crawl up toward that army while enduring flame cannons and having to fend off the K'daii destroyer.

LD Bomb lists you can undermine it and you HAVE to play smart against it. You can reach for the BSB and kill the -2LD banner. You can destroy The Masque - its 2W 3++, not some 1+/3++ reroll 1s chaos lord, You know to expect Siren Song from exactly which models. Yes its considered a "cheesy list", that much we can agree on.

Chaos Dwarf list that I faced, you bend over and take it. Those magma cannons are underpriced, S5 D3W flaming template with the kind of reach it has and the ridiculous autohitting and the Wizard Engineers that can fireball the chaff coming for the machines while giving misfire rerolls?! Saw the guy just blaze through a Warriors of Chaos army - fire template here, boom a skullcrusher dead, a fire template there, boom, 9 chaos warriors dead. Joy.
Well anyway, if it wasn't for the gunline effect, facing a different chaos dwarf army might be fun.

Da Crusha
12-02-2013, 09:36
So are we gonna keep going in circles about the Tamurkhan book now? And give specific situational events like rolling a 6 on that T test to lose D3 wounds on your underpriced monster?

My point stands, 625 for the keeper, LV4, Siren Song, Allure of slaanesh, Torment blade, is way too expensive.
325 pts for the K'daii is way too cheap.

mine is a little cheap but I wouldn't say yours is too expensive though.

Kalandros
12-02-2013, 09:50
mine is a little cheap but I wouldn't say yours is too expensive though.
It would only be correctly priced if it was also survivable according to its price tag.
Both models can be destroyed with ease using Banishment, but mine costs almost twice as much and yours has better chance to survive with 4+ ward even if Banishment forces a reroll.
If I do not use Allure of Slaanesh, the K'daii and other things can also kill her very quickly.

Anyway, its just a bitter aftertaste from that specific chaos dwarf army. I'd have no problem if it was a different list. His list is just too gunline even though he claims he "plays forward" - obviously your M9 K'daii is going forward on a rampage, but the rest always sticks close to the war machines at the back, going forward only if its a sure thing.
So in the end, Magma Cannons & K'daii Destroyers are the biggest issue.

You know, it says a lot when you haven't had fun winning against someone.

Da Crusha
12-02-2013, 10:06
I understand

Sh4d0w
12-02-2013, 11:27
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?347090-Specific-army-tactics-to-kill-or-hold-off-the-K-daai-Destroyer

;)

Lord Inquisitor
12-02-2013, 14:22
I am a Daemon /Wood Elf Player, but recently I have started Chaos Dwarves. They are a pretty strong army. They do have some "must take" units, but then again every army does. The K'daai has come up a bunch of times through out this thread. However all i hear is complete whining. How about we collaborate and figure out how to counter it?
A thread about what cheesy lists people hate? Whining? What did you expect...

Dealing with the K'daai is a matter for another thread, and it's pretty hard to counter unless you have Lore of Shadow.


Now don't get me wrong, the K'daai should cost around 400 points, but his cost wont change for awhile.
Given how easily it can handle greater daemons, probably closer to 500. It certainly is a top contender for "most underpriced model in the game".


I have abused Daemonic Magic, and Flames of Azgorh is no where near as powerful as Daemonic Magic. Daemons have access to any Warhammer Rulebook lore (with all spells) for a minimal down payment of 20 points... Not to mention all of the broken combos you can create. (Dwellers + Enfeebling Foe used to be my favorite). Just watch as any unit would become almost nothing after a turn of magic. Flames of Azgorh is a strong ability, but it does scatter making it a bit unreliable. Also Look out Sirs are allowed against both the S6 hit, and the T test. I don't see Look out Sirs against Dwellers....
Daemons were the be-all-and-end-all of cheese for a long time. Even now they're still a top tier army. They've been pointed at several times in this thread as owning several of the "most hated cheese" lists. I can take on Chaos Dwarfs with daemons. I've even taken on double-destroyer, triple-magma-cannon, triple-iron-daemon CD at 3K and I've beaten it - but with Ld-bomb daemons, arguably one of the most cheesy lists out there.

If you compare CD to the 8th edition armies and the Lore of Hashut to the other 8th ed Lores other than the rulebook Lores, it starts to look much more powerful. Given that all the actual army book lores are substantially less powerful than Lore of Death or Shadow, we can expect the rulebook Lores to be brought into line with 9th edition.

Simply put, if you have to compare CD stuff to daemons to try and not look so powerful and it's still tough - that's not a good sign.


I love how you exaggerate a ton about Ash Storm. It does not affect your stat line at all. Therefore it does no (WS,BS,S,T,I,A,LD) modifiers. Yes it makes you -1 to hit in CC, -2 to hit in Shooting, cannot march or charge, wizards cannot cast, and makes you flammable. Remember being flammable only matters if you have multiple wounds. In the Warhammer Rule Book it says "If a model with this rule suffers an unsaved wound from a flaming attack then that model receives double wounds." Ash Storm is designed to counter the players who run death stars. I find the best way to work around the spell is to run multiple viable targets. The spell is good so don't get me wrong, just not as powerful as the dreaded Dwellers.
It takes a unit out of the game and makes it hideously vulnerable (flammable might not be a big deal if the CD didn't have such a wide access to flaming attacks). Simply put, it's one of the best spells in the game.


still not better than purple sun and dwellers.
Depends, it has rather more chance of taking out a powerful model like a greater daemon or similar than purple sun or dwellers. Compare it to any of the #6 spells in the 8th edition army books.


the hell cannon and trebuchet are just as effective if not better than magma cannons.
This just isn't true. A hellcannon is much less likely to hit an enemy unit, isn't armour piercing, isn't flaming, isn't D3 wounds, and hits less enemy with a direct hit. Given that hellcannon and magma cannons can be taken by CD I see a whole lot more magma cannon.


My point stands, 625 for the keeper, LV4, Siren Song, Allure of slaanesh, Torment blade, is way too expensive.
325 pts for the K'daii is way too cheap.
I don't know that the Keeper is too expensive, especially with the synergy with the Ld bomb. A better comparison is the Bloodthirster, as that's more in-line with the K'daai's stats and capabilities especially since it isn't also a level 4, but a 550 point bloodthirster is at best an even fight with the K'daai (assuming you don't do something silly like take a Firestorm Blade).


http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?347090-Specific-army-tactics-to-kill-or-hold-off-the-K-daai-Destroyer

;)

It might be pointed out (again) that dealing with the K'daai isn't an issue for me. But all of the solutions I have for the K'daai with my armies or others are through using an equally cheesy list. Double Ironblaster. Khalida poison archer spam. Ld bomb. Unkillable Lord (pendant/tzeentch). Etc. Or they require specifically gearing up against Chaos Dwarfs (most of the dragonbane character builds suggested).

If you end up including a unit or character specifically to deal with a particular monster from a very rare army ... yeah, that monster is probably overpowered!

Kalandros
12-02-2013, 18:09
I mean for its defensive stats, even 450 pts base start price is too high while LD Bomb elements and Siren song are undercosted.
I can agree that 625 pts is fine due to Siren Song right now. I gamble everything on my Keeper doing its job and not biting it on turn 1 to things like dual Iron blasters~

Da Crusha
12-02-2013, 18:58
so now that we're all in agreement (sort of) do you guys think my mostly hobgoblins with big guns idea would be cheesier than the typical chaos dwarf lists? again its, typical "cheese:shifty:", minimal infernal guard as a bunker, and mostly steadfast hobgoblins with big guns.

by the way, I feel like I know my army a little bit better now. to be honest I've been having trouble at tournaments with this army since this book came out that I didn't have with Ravening Hordes. I think I just wasn't using it to it's full potential.

Lord Inquisitor
12-02-2013, 19:19
None of the CD core are especially cheesy. I think the stubborn infernal guard block of doom is more of a pain. You need something tough enough to withstand anything that actually makes it past your destroyer and artillery.

HalfBlood
12-02-2013, 20:12
so now that we're all in agreement (sort of) do you guys think my mostly hobgoblins with big guns idea would be cheesier than the typical chaos dwarf lists? again its, typical "cheese:shifty:", minimal infernal guard as a bunker, and mostly steadfast hobgoblins with big guns.

by the way, I feel like I know my army a little bit better now. to be honest I've been having trouble at tournaments with this army since this book came out that I didn't have with Ravening Hordes. I think I just wasn't using it to it's full potential.


If you really want advice on how to play Tamurkhan Chaos Dwarves go here
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=72

Complete website where we talk about strategies on how to play CD and the troubles we face.


I suggest IF over hobgoblins any day. 3+ armor with stubborn can go along way. A few units of 20-30 (5x4,5x5, or 5x6) can go along way.

Da Crusha
12-02-2013, 20:37
If you really want advice on how to play Tamurkhan Chaos Dwarves go here
http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=72

Complete website where we talk about strategies on how to play CD and the troubles we face.


I suggest IF over hobgoblins any day. 3+ armor with stubborn can go along way. A few units of 20-30 (5x4,5x5, or 5x6) can go along way.

oh yeah I frequent that site and am a senior member. its just sometimes, like I said earlier, you meet up with an opponent like graveguard or executioner horde and they just steam roll the IG. maybe in cases like that a big unit of steadfast hobgoblins is the way to go. lots of cheap bodies to grind away since its going to happen anyway. a nice tarpit.

Lord Inquisitor
12-02-2013, 20:41
If a graveguard horde or executioner horde has made it through the gauntlet of destroyer, magma cannons, hellcannon and lone hobgob heroes with enough bodies to really cut through your infernal guard, the game is probably over whether you take infernal guard or hobgoblins...

MR. GRUMPY
12-02-2013, 23:02
I dont like uber spells of doom very much. Plague that jumps through my line and dreaded 13th in the same game especially makes me sad.

kefkah
12-02-2013, 23:16
If a graveguard horde or executioner horde has made it through the gauntlet of destroyer, magma cannons, hellcannon and lone hobgob heroes with enough bodies to really cut through your infernal guard, the game is probably over whether you take infernal guard or hobgoblins...

Yeah idd, and since when have Executioner horde been considered cheese, or even that hard to deal with?.

lucienyo
13-02-2013, 01:38
i hate teclis with horde of sea guard .......volley then forced through mindrazor. ouchhhhy everytime

HalfBlood
13-02-2013, 03:20
oh yeah I frequent that site and am a senior member. its just sometimes, like I said earlier, you meet up with an opponent like graveguard or executioner horde and they just steam roll the IG. maybe in cases like that a big unit of steadfast hobgoblins is the way to go. lots of cheap bodies to grind away since its going to happen anyway. a nice tarpit.


To be honest, if your like me and other CD players. I really cant see Graveguard getting thrugh double Magma Cannons. My issues are against Ogre double Iron Blaster Lists, but thats just me.

HalfBlood
13-02-2013, 03:21
Double Post woops.

Da Crusha
13-02-2013, 03:27
well thats my problem then, I gotta put the magma cannons back in.

Iniesta
13-02-2013, 06:34
It would only be correctly priced if it was also survivable according to its price tag.
Both models can be destroyed with ease using Banishment, but mine costs almost twice as much and yours has better chance to survive with 4+ ward even if Banishment forces a reroll.
If I do not use Allure of Slaanesh, the K'daii and other things can also kill her very quickly.

Anyway, its just a bitter aftertaste from that specific chaos dwarf army. I'd have no problem if it was a different list. His list is just too gunline even though he claims he "plays forward" - obviously your M9 K'daii is going forward on a rampage, but the rest always sticks close to the war machines at the back, going forward only if its a sure thing.
So in the end, Magma Cannons & K'daii Destroyers are the biggest issue.

You know, it says a lot when you haven't had fun winning against someone.

Thats just dumb taking two units and flat comparing them without taking into comparison the books from which they come from. If i wanted to win every game i would take deamons every day of the week over CD. Greater deamons are not overcosted. try compare the core from the two books!

Kalandros
13-02-2013, 08:39
Thats just dumb taking two units and flat comparing them without taking into comparison the books from which they come from. If i wanted to win every game i would take deamons every day of the week over CD. Greater deamons are not overcosted. try compare the core from the two books!

Infernal Guards are 12 pts for WS4 T4 3+ Armor 5++ vs fire, parry save, Ld9 and oh yea, S4 to boot.
They are on equal grounds with Daemonettes and Bloodletters. Where those 2 are weaker to Dwellers and S5 templates, Dwarfs are I2 and weak to Purple Sun and such. Really no need to compare them further.
Hobgoblins allow for cheap steadfast tarpits (oh hey LD 10 general!) or simply use as steadfast wall to protect war machines, or just as "sacrifice to buy me another turn".
Of course all the weapon options are a bit too expensive for the Infernals - if you go blunderbuss or great weapons, you've got pretty much 1 huge unit or maybe 2 medium units and thats all.

I wasn't "flat comparing" the Kdaii and the Kipper out of nowhere but you seem to dismiss this readily.
The k'daii is underpriced, the Greater Daemons are all over priced for their stat line. The gifts need to be tweaked with heavily - the WoC update made the Daemon Prince almost as good as a Greater Daemon and in some cases actually better. WS9 Nurgle Death Wizard with heal on 6s and 1+ armor, 5+ ward, 2++ vs fire, charmed shield. No greater daemon can be as survivable as this except maybe Kairos? (And he's Init 1 so just Pit him away with Teclis while we're at it.)

I do hope for major changes for Greater Daemons but right now, they are over costed. They're still quite worth taking but a Daemon army without a Greater Daemon even up to 3k pts can outperform an army with one.

HalfBlood
13-02-2013, 20:00
Infernal Guards are 12 pts for WS4 T4 3+ Armor 5++ vs fire, parry save, Ld9 and oh yea, S4 to boot.
They are on equal grounds with Daemonettes and Bloodletters. Where those 2 are weaker to Dwellers and S5 templates, Dwarfs are I2 and weak to Purple Sun and such. Really no need to compare them further.
Hobgoblins allow for cheap steadfast tarpits (oh hey LD 10 general!) or simply use as steadfast wall to protect war machines, or just as "sacrifice to buy me another turn".
Of course all the weapon options are a bit too expensive for the Infernals - if you go blunderbuss or great weapons, you've got pretty much 1 huge unit or maybe 2 medium units and thats all.



How are Bloodletters weak to Dwellers? lol. And why would you ever take Daemonettes over a horde of bloodletters?

Remember Bloodletters are incredibly powerful. WS5, S5, I4, Killing Blow, MR to protect against magic missiles, then you have Daemonic Instability which is by far the best break test system out there...

Lord Inquisitor
13-02-2013, 20:42
I've been pondering the "cheese" lists out there. Cheese being synonymous with "effective" in many cases. There are a few common themes. "Mindrazor FTW" involves making troops with as many attacks as possible with re-rolls to hit and then trying to get mindrazor off, usually with some trick to achieve this. Deathstar is fairly self explanatory, lots of characters in one unit. I think we covered Ld bomb earlier in this thread.

Beastmen
Herdstone gaggle, blender doombull, horde of bestigor.

Bretonnia
The intercontinental ballistic missile. Deathstar with turn 1 charge potential.

Chaos Dwarfs
Destroyer, multiple magma cannons and wolf hobgobs, level 4.

Daemons of Chaos
Leadership Bomb. Hordes of bloodletters. Kairos.

Dark Elves
Mindrazor FTW, dagger level 4, pendant lord on a Pegasus.

Dwarfs
Gunline always annoys. Thorek has fallen out of fashion but some people still hate him.

High Elves
Teclis, especially in a bunker or folding fortress with the banner of world dragon. When Teclis is banned, book of hoeth (usually mindrazor FTW).

Lizardmen
Double Slaan (especially in big games), salamander spam. Is the skink spam considered cheesy?

Ogre Kingdoms
Mournfang spam, double ironblaster, giant deathstar of ironguts with rune maw bsb.

Orcs & Goblins
Not sure about cheesy but mangler/fanatic spam is annoying enough.

Skaven
The two towers build seems to have fallen out of favour but there's the constant slave tarpit spam backed up by double abomb and season with wacky death.

The Empire
Mindrazor FTW with a sprinkling of gunline is the main build but a knight deathstar can occasionally make the rounds.

Tomb Kings
Khalida bowfire spam, warsphinx spam or tomb guard/chariot deathstar

Vampire Counts
The three main "annoying" builds are (1) ethereal spam, (2) scream spam and (3) black knight deathstar.

Warriors of Chaos
Early indications put double hellcannons as still popular, the jugger deathstar will have to prove itself to show frenzy isn't too much of a downside. Unkillable Lord/Sorcerer on a disc. Nurgle daemon prince with death also seems like a strong build.

Wood Elves
...?

Kalandros
13-02-2013, 22:02
How are Bloodletters weak to Dwellers? lol. And why would you ever take Daemonettes over a horde of bloodletters?

Remember Bloodletters are incredibly powerful. WS5, S5, I4, Killing Blow, MR to protect against magic missiles, then you have Daemonic Instability which is by far the best break test system out there...

Dwellers applies to Daemonettes, S5 templates applies to both~ But at the time of writing I was thinking about how both are T3~


Orcs & Goblins
Not sure about cheesy but mangler/fanatic spam is annoying enough.
I've had many effective lists, though sometimes animosity just says Nope.
Chief amongst them was to use minimal characters - a 70 pt BSB and a 230 pt Lv4 Shaman - at most 300 pts of Characters meant 2200 pts of actual army.
Not cheese but incredibly nice to have around. You can fit in so much stuff it overwhelms the enemy.

Other than that - the Savage Big'un death star with the "Negate Magic Item" BSB to nullify opponent Crown of command has worked more than once, also negated 2 Paladins + 1 Bret lord who are the front of the Knight Lance of course (: They still had their regular 2+/5++ but eh, they went down regardless.

HalfBlood
14-02-2013, 00:45
Anyone who reads this thread should just go up to what Lord Inquisitor just posted. Probably the most accurate nowadays.

I would have to add though,

Skaven: Double Grey Seer,Plague, and Double Warp Lightning Cannons.
Wood Elves: Maybe Treekin? A pain to play against, but I find it hard to consider them Cheese.
OnG: I would have to say Bin Un Death Star similar to what Kalandros just posted.

woodster17
14-02-2013, 01:02
Wood Elves: Maybe Treekin? A pain to play against, but I find it hard to consider them Cheese.


I find it hard to consider a single unit in an army book that's generally considered underpowered as 'cheese' (I hate that word anyway, bleurgh). Some players are very competitive admittedly but when you're really restricted on what units/lists you can use without being at a serious disadvantage I can't begrudge a Wood Elf player maybe over-relying on Tree Kin.

Also, Black Knight death star ftw :evilgrin:

anthioram
14-02-2013, 02:00
I've been pondering the "cheese" lists out there. Cheese being synonymous with "effective" in many cases.

I wouldn't say cheese is synonymous with effective at all. Of course there is no universal definition of "cheese", but in my opinion it has more to do with maximazing the use of overpowered/undercosted units, rules, items or a combination of those when compared to the rest of the game. The final result is an army that bends the rules and the game giving an unfair advantage to the user.
There are not that many cheese lists out there. In fact, by trying to bring one from every army, you have mentioned many builds that i wouldn't consider cheese at all.

Using your examples, the blender doombull or the flying doombull of doom are both effective lord builds. But those doombulls are really expensive, are only combat orientated and have a number of counters more or less available to other armies. On the other hand the Abomb is clearly undercosted based on what it does and compared to other monsters out there.

The dark elf Mindwazooor build relies on relatively cheap, multiattack, rerolling to hit infantry, the ability to 'create' power dices at will, and use as many as posible to cast mindrazor. It simply spits on the current magic rules. By contrast the imperial mindrazor build is far less strong, the only cheese being the spell itself (completely broken), so I'd call it 'creme freche' at the most ;)

lucienyo
14-02-2013, 03:00
Wood elf lord running around with bodkins and the bow of loren can be a real pain. Woodies aint got cheese like most tho.

HalfBlood
14-02-2013, 03:51
I wouldn't say cheese is synonymous with effective at all. Of course there is no universal definition of "cheese", but in my opinion it has more to do with maximazing the use of overpowered/undercosted units, rules, items or a combination of those when compared to the rest of the game. The final result is an army that bends the rules and the game giving an unfair advantage to the user.
There are not that many cheese lists out there. In fact, by trying to bring one from every army, you have mentioned many builds that i wouldn't consider cheese at all.

Using your examples, the blender doombull or the flying doombull of doom are both effective lord builds. But those doombulls are really expensive, are only combat orientated and have a number of counters more or less available to other armies. On the other hand the Abomb is clearly undercosted based on what it does and compared to other monsters out there.

The dark elf Mindwazooor build relies on relatively cheap, multiattack, rerolling to hit infantry, the ability to 'create' power dices at will, and use as many as posible to cast mindrazor. It simply spits on the current magic rules. By contrast the imperial mindrazor build is far less strong, the only cheese being the spell itself (completely broken), so I'd call it 'creme freche' at the most ;)


You have to remember what you consider "Overpowered" (Yea i hate using the word cheese too) may not be "Overpowered" in my opinion. Like I find very few of the armies to have "Overpowered" builds, I just consider them effective. I really wouldn't mind playing against Teclis, or Fateweaver, but some other players do. The less competitive players are also the ones that whine the most. They lose to an effective army build and immediately assume its broken.

Lord Inquisitor
14-02-2013, 04:09
Skaven: Double Grey Seer,Plague, and Double Warp Lightning Cannons.
Double-grey-seer is a good point. Double-any-Skaven-rares can be a pain, but double HPA takes the cake for me.


OnG: I would have to say Bin Un Death Star similar to what Kalandros just posted.
Makes sense although I've never seen one. A friend of mine runs a goblin deathstar (I know, scary?) with the poison banner and something like 15 goblin heroes in the front rank and backed up by about 100 goblins. I think that's the closes goblins get to cheese ;)


I wouldn't say cheese is synonymous with effective at all. Of course there is no universal definition of "cheese", but in my opinion it has more to do with maximazing the use of overpowered/undercosted units, rules, items or a combination of those when compared to the rest of the game. The final result is an army that bends the rules and the game giving an unfair advantage to the user.
Right, perhaps "min-maxed" would be a better term? I'm not so keen on "cheesy" as everyone's opinion varies.


Using your examples, the blender doombull or the flying doombull of doom are both effective lord builds. But those doombulls are really expensive, are only combat orientated and have a number of counters more or less available to other armies. On the other hand the Abomb is clearly undercosted based on what it does and compared to other monsters out there.
True, but the blender doombull is damned annoying. Getting into a situation where you can't hope to hurt a single model and it grinds through your army is frustrating enough to push it into the "annoying" category if not absolutely broken.


The dark elf Mindwazooor build relies on relatively cheap, multiattack, rerolling to hit infantry, the ability to 'create' power dices at will, and use as many as posible to cast mindrazor. It simply spits on the current magic rules. By contrast the imperial mindrazor build is far less strong, the only cheese being the spell itself (completely broken), so I'd call it 'creme freche' at the most ;)
Certainly High and Dark elves can push mindrazor through better than Empire, but Empire have cheaper troops and easy access to stubborn. They might not get it so reliably but they'll hold you there until they do! Besides, with a good choice of cheap wizards and a few arcane items like forbidden rod and power stone, as well as a hurricanum and many channels, Empire can do quite a surprisingly good job.

Kalandros
14-02-2013, 04:15
Blender doombull.. thats the thing with no ward save cause it needs 1+ reroll armor save and the thing where he gets an extra attack for every save he makes and he runs up for S3/S4 units to get a ton of attacks?
Must be super effective against Witch Elves and Corsairs.. hah

Lord Inquisitor
14-02-2013, 04:24
It's pretty horrible against many things, not just witch elves, especially when they back it up with Shadow and drop your strength. It's gaining attacks every time it wins combat too don't forget. I've seen them carve their way through whole units of Ironguts.

Kalandros
14-02-2013, 04:33
It's pretty horrible against many things, not just witch elves, especially when they back it up with Shadow and drop your strength. It's gaining attacks every time it wins combat too don't forget. I've seen them carve their way through whole units of Ironguts.

Thats crazy, though I have not played against Beastmen in this edition, no one in the area.. or maybe in my entire Province seems to play them. Seems a bit hard to use properly though, gotta practice it I guess.

Lord Dan
14-02-2013, 05:06
Wood elf lord running around with bodkins and the bow of loren can be a real pain. Woodies aint got cheese like most tho.

I laughed at that build until my opponent cast the +3S +3A spell from the Lore of Beasts on him. He put a hurting on my Empire knights, however with only S3 he still struggles against the really expensive stuff (Chaos Knights come to mind). That combo would be redonkulous if Wood Elves had access to the Lore of Shadow and, by extension, The Withering.

lamo
14-02-2013, 10:50
I've been pondering the "cheese" lists out there. Cheese being synonymous with "effective" in many cases. There are a few common themes. "Mindrazor FTW" involves making troops with as many attacks as possible with re-rolls to hit and then trying to get mindrazor off, usually with some trick to achieve this. Deathstar is fairly self explanatory, lots of characters in one unit. I think we covered Ld bomb earlier in this thread.

Beastmen
Herdstone gaggle, blender doombull, horde of bestigor.

Bretonnia
The intercontinental ballistic missile. Deathstar with turn 1 charge potential.

Chaos Dwarfs
Destroyer, multiple magma cannons and wolf hobgobs, level 4.

Daemons of Chaos
Leadership Bomb. Hordes of bloodletters. Kairos.

Dark Elves
Mindrazor FTW, dagger level 4, pendant lord on a Pegasus.

Dwarfs
Gunline always annoys. Thorek has fallen out of fashion but some people still hate him.

High Elves
Teclis, especially in a bunker or folding fortress with the banner of world dragon. When Teclis is banned, book of hoeth (usually mindrazor FTW).

Lizardmen
Double Slaan (especially in big games), salamander spam. Is the skink spam considered cheesy?

Ogre Kingdoms
Mournfang spam, double ironblaster, giant deathstar of ironguts with rune maw bsb.

Orcs & Goblins
Not sure about cheesy but mangler/fanatic spam is annoying enough.

Skaven
The two towers build seems to have fallen out of favour but there's the constant slave tarpit spam backed up by double abomb and season with wacky death.

The Empire
Mindrazor FTW with a sprinkling of gunline is the main build but a knight deathstar can occasionally make the rounds.

Tomb Kings
Khalida bowfire spam, warsphinx spam or tomb guard/chariot deathstar

Vampire Counts
The three main "annoying" builds are (1) ethereal spam, (2) scream spam and (3) black knight deathstar.

Warriors of Chaos
Early indications put double hellcannons as still popular, the jugger deathstar will have to prove itself to show frenzy isn't too much of a downside. Unkillable Lord/Sorcerer on a disc. Nurgle daemon prince with death also seems like a strong build.

Wood Elves
...?

Major things on my mind to add that are pretty cheeseball are Monsterous Calvary spam from Warriors empire WoC and ogres.

Empire are cheap as hell and 3 units of 4 demi's is freaking nuts. that along with two cannons a knight bus life lvl 4 and a steamtank in 2400 points brings the pain (list like that just won the templecon gt here in NY.)

chaos daemons with chaff spam(strong chaff) and 3 bloodletter blocks with a light wizard is nasty.

chaos dwarfs with the damn chalice of blood and darkness after the faq is INSANE. expect every turn they get at least one good spell off(ex: CHD has 4 dice and you have 4 dice...they throw everything at ashstorm before you can dispel they activate the chalice and then you lose d3 dice he loses none because his pool is empty and this means his spell goes through 90% of the time) the chalice combined with the awesome rerolling warmachines/hellcannon(daemonsmiths) and kadaii destroyer are gona make it a tough battle.

skaven with the change to how overrun works with slaves that die to there special rule are the best chaff in the game. 10-12ish units of slaves and really any combination of double lvl 4, rare spam, doomrocket, brassorb will give you a headache.

vampires only thing to add is just like skaven slaves zombies have become even more annoying to deal with. Also 4 terrorgist screams in one list means elite armies loose on turn 2 if atleast one or two screams arent dealt with quickly.

Tk toughness 8 spam can be a real kick in the balls for some armies.

lizardmen most broken magic/magic def in all of warhammer etheral + skink spam + unlimited breath weapons

ogres hell heart + dispel scroll get rid of two turns of magic which combined with their very powerful MC and cannons is deadly

Dark elves have the most diverse book and almost nothing in it is bad hydra, corsairs, blackguard, witch elves, shades, cauldron of blood, unkillable dread lord, sac dagger with shadow. Hell most armies would be envious of there least used special choice executioners (ws 5 str 6 gw with hatred and killingblow OMG) They can be good at anything they put their elvish minds on.

Finally imo the new most over powered book
WoC

Combine an unkillable flying lord (1+ 3++ reroll 1s on the ward save) with two unkillable heros ( 3 wounds each 1+3++ and 1+4++) and you have an army that can hold big things while you skullcrushers/chariots destroy the rest of the army. With lore of metal to deal with the only issue they have(high armor) or nurgle for having a spell for every situation their magic is great. Very elite army but for the price almost nothing even comes close. (blender vamp lord would be even with the 1+3++ hero and lose to the lord.....scary i know)

thats all I could thing of....but yeah lots of crazy stuff overall.

~Lamo