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Malorian
05-02-2013, 21:12
So I've been hearing a lot about how awesome the new daemon prince is and how everyone is going to be taking one now, and personally I think that's crazy.

Talk to any DoC player and they will say the biggest liability in their army is their greater daemon. If it goes down you lose a big part of your killing power, 100 more points for the general, plus possibly the loss of magic too.

Now I understand he got better, but is it really worth the risk? Is it worth having this model sticking its head out when you could be playing blood and glory, and you could be one cannon shot away from a massacre loss?


My counter would be a lvl 4 sorcerer lord of nurgle with fencer blades and really whatever else you want to give him.

Safe, dependable, and going to be an ace up your sleeve in B&G and not a liability.


Overall I think people are getting ahead of themselves drooling over monsters and not thinking about watchtower and Blood and Glory.

Thoughts?

Havock
05-02-2013, 21:20
I don't play watchtower, and frankly, I always played with a Discolord in the previous edition so unlikely to feel the difference. Especially because I am going to be a cheesy **** and use Belakor instead of the ugly new Daemon Princes, I believe is is like half the size or something, should make him easier to hide :D

Pirog
05-02-2013, 21:30
I haven't got my hands on the new book yet so I can't speak for it, ruleswise. However, what I see around on the forums about the DP, I'm eager to put a real cheesy one in my list.
As the theme of my army revolves around a center sorcerer lord, bringing destruction to everything in his path (well... must like any other Chaos army I guess, heh). And I've always played him as a lvl4 disc sorcerer. A new cheesy DP will only let me model him and use him the way I pictured him in my head.

But sure, I guess you'll have to use your game to use it well.
At first hand, again without the book in my hand, I thought of converting a unit of Hellstriders to bring up one of the opponents flanks and use the DP on the other flank then having my slower marching mass of warriors and whatever else, maybe chariots, come up the middle. Hopefully this gives my opponent alot of ground to protect at the same time. Of course I could always be unlucky, loosing both flanks early in the game and ending up with all my killing power down the drain, but luck's always been a part of the game too so it's worst the risk.
And also, as mentioned, this makes me able to model and field my army as I pictured it from the beginning. And I've always felt that if my army is cooler looking than my opponent's, I've already won.

myrsnipe
05-02-2013, 21:31
The thing is that @2400 points you could possibly fit in 3 chimera's to shield him, that might be overkill, but he only needs 1 or two rounds of protection, depending on how you narrow down the angles the cannons can reach him. With template magic & breath weapons combined with flying, he is a very attractive package now. All you need to protect him is during the opening and first round, with the chimera's you should be able to do so, after that he can charge into a flank unit for security and still cast a butload of spells and generally tear **** up. With charmed shield, the odds of surviving the start of the match with chimera's to block cannon shot is very high.

It's still a bit of a gamble compared to, say the flying, stubborn, 1+/3++ rerolling saves Tzeentch lords, but he's far better off now than he used to be

Doommasters
05-02-2013, 21:33
Well as far as expsenive lords go his is up for in terms of cost and ability. The same question could be asked about anyone who spends 400+ points on a lord choice, if you lose it you lose huge amount of VP's. At the same time with a model with a statline and special rules like the DP the only thing you have to worry about is cannons/stone throwers as everything else you can avoid if you try hard. Which leads into my next point which is target saturation, if you have only the DP as a viablw target well you are asking for trouble. However throw in a couple of Flying monsters and other must deal with threats and all of a sudden you are in a better position.

The question I woudl ask myself is if I lose my DP on turn one from focus fire a) how am I going to win/draw and b) what advantage did I get for it?

If for some unlucky reason you DP bites the dust from mass artillery fire but you fast cav, flyers and other monsters are about to slam into my enemies bunker and wipe his lvl4 out of the game then I would still feel I have a shot. If I had a slow moving army and lost my DP for no real gain then yea it is probably over.

Malorian
05-02-2013, 21:39
All you need to protect him is during the opening and first round, with the chimera's you should be able to do so, after that he can charge into a flank unit for security and still cast a butload of spells and generally tear **** up. With charmed shield, the odds of surviving the start of the match with chimera's to block cannon shot is very high.

This is the other part of it, people talk about their awesome DP and all the chims they are going to have flying around and don't realize how many points of your army this is going to take up, and what a low break point you are going to have.

Plus chims or trolls aren't going to block stone throwers.

It's a major risk and I definately think this DP talk will go away once people try them in a tournament and get smacked with a quick massacre loss when they face a bad match up.

BlackPawl
05-02-2013, 21:40
... I always played with a Discolord in the previous edition ...

But only at Saturday night, or? ;)

Doommasters
05-02-2013, 21:49
If you had to take a DP as your only lord choice Malorian how would you build him and what units would you put around him?

Malorian
05-02-2013, 21:53
I'd have trolls to protect him, Lvl 4 Mark of Nurgle, chaos armor, charm shield, potion of toughness, 10 point get wounds back thing

The rest I can't say without the book on me, but basically set up to be as survivable as possible.

RuneGrey
05-02-2013, 21:53
The big issue is when you take a Daemon Lord with the level 4 wizard upgrade. By itself, a fighty Daemon Lord is not much worse than any other fighty lord - its the wings upgrade and chaos armor that actually makes it more expensive. Otherwise you're paying 25 points more than a fighty lord for better stats while having a different focus on what gifts to take.

Ultimately the major difference is the lack of a look out sir save, which you don't get if you take a wizard on a disc or other mount. If you could take a 120 point upgrade to make your level 4 wizard into a lord as well, I think that there would be people who would be tempted to do so. Without will of chaos, the Ld 8 of a Sorcerer Lord is more of a problem than it used to be.

I think that using a Tzeentch Warshrine is a better blocking unit as well, only a 1/3 change of wounding it at all with a cannon ball and only a 1/3rd chance of killing it if it does take a wound. But I don't see the Daemon Prince being any more vulnerable than your average level 4 disc lord, he's just more expensive and better able to take care of himself. It's more a mark of that cannons make large chunks of many army lists vulnerable to just being shot off the table than a weakness in the daemon prince himself.

Lord Inquisitor
05-02-2013, 21:56
I come from a Daemon player's perspective rather than a WoC one. The Daemon Daemon Prince is even worse than the WoC Daemon Prince and is in direct competition with the Greater Daemons.

What makes the WoC Daemon Prince better? Particularly in comparison with the greater daemons:


WS9 and Ld9. Most troops hit it on 5s now. Mark of Nurgle makes that 6s. That's some pretty solid hand-to-hand defence.
While T5 and W4 is inferior to the greater daemons, as well as being hit on 6's, the DP can take a 1+ armour save easily now. For just 5 points a charmed shield (oh if my greater daemons could take a charmed shield!) and suddenly that's a whole heap of cannon protection right there particularly as the WoC books has lots of monstrous or monster units to hide behind.
Unbreakable! Instability is a major weakness of the greater daemons.


What does the prince offer the WoC that you couldn't get from a level 4 or other Lord choice? Isn't a normal level 4 less of a liability?


Flying Ld9 death caster. Again Nurgle wins out on this front. Suffice to say a Ld9 flying death caster is a sniping hell and even in combat can purple sun or soul blight your face off. I've played a lot with a flying Tzeentch herald with loremaster death and yeah, +1 Ld and level 4 is a big boost. I don't think you can get Death on a flying level 4 other than the DP.
Did I mention unbreakable? Sure, stubborn crown is good, but unbreakable protects you from that chance, particularly if you don't have a BSB near, Ld8 isn't all that brilliant.
High quality attacks. With a sword of striking and thunderstomp, the DP is going to be pumping out a very reliable number of S6 hits against infantry.


I don't think the DP is the only Lord choice that's viable, but I'm seeing a lot I like. Shame the Nurgle option seems to be head and shoulders above the other 3 gods, but certainly it's nice if daemon princes are at least an option. I'd be happy if DP aren't the new cheese - I've been predicting for years that the GW pendulum will make Daemon Princes useless in 40K and 1+ in WFB. I'll be happy to be proven at least half wrong ;).

Also, at higher points values, the DP has real merit as a second lord choice after your Level 4. You can certainly get both at 3K, making the DP less expensive and therefore less of a liability.

Havock
05-02-2013, 21:57
Always, all the time ;)

Malorian, I think people are pretty jumpy about it because for once he looks actually playable.
Hell, decent!

The previous demon prince was utterly **** , practically unplayable in 8th ed (at least in 7th ed you could hide him behind a few shrubs and call it a day) and the only daemon prince thing worth a damn in Hordes of Chaos was the Exalted Daemon (for the uninitiated, he took two hero slots and cost a bit more but was actually used from time to time for the flying terror magicslinger-warmachine muncher that he was)

So yeah, it looks like I finally have a reason to assemble Belakor and use him as something else than a statue/unitfiller :p

If you want to tarpit you are probably still better off with a chaos lord trolling around on a disc with a 3+ wardsave -rerolling ones- and the crown of command.
Probably, until the BSB dies and/or you flunk the break test.

myrsnipe
05-02-2013, 21:57
This is the other part of it, people talk about their awesome DP and all the chims they are going to have flying around and don't realize how many points of your army this is going to take up, and what a low break point you are going to have.

Plus chims or trolls aren't going to block stone throwers.

It's a major risk and I definately think this DP talk will go away once people try them in a tournament and get smacked with a quick massacre loss when they face a bad match up.

To be honest, a single chimera might do the trick, and it's not like they are wasting time, they are moving up to deal with the threat of warmachines anyway.

It is pretty clear that he more less fragile than the Tzeentch Disk Lords, but they are some of the most enduring characters in the game, it's very rare to for them to die unless you get tabled. I won't delude myself over this, but dismissing him already is a bit early

Malorian
05-02-2013, 22:03
It is pretty clear that he more less fragile than the Tzeentch Disk Lords, but they are some of the most enduring characters in the game, it's very rare to for them to die unless you get tabled. I won't delude myself over this, but dismissing him already is a bit early

I would say he's much more fragile than the disc lord. One have a 3+ ward with rerolling 1's, the other doesn't.

The strength of cannons and stone throwers makes toughness and armor a non-issue, so really the only advantage the DP has is one wound, meaning a single cannon rolls enough wounds hald the time rather than two thirds the time, but it happens more often.

Lord Inquisitor
05-02-2013, 22:14
I would say he's much more fragile than the disc lord. One have a 3+ ward with rerolling 1's, the other doesn't.

The strength of cannons and stone throwers makes toughness and armor a non-issue, so really the only advantage the DP has is one wound, meaning a single cannon rolls enough wounds hald the time rather than two thirds the time, but it happens more often.

But the daemon prince is more resilient in combat.

Let's assume a disc rider with 1+ armour save, 3+ ward (re-rolling 1s) and stubborn crown vs daemon prince with 1+ save (charmed shield) and Mark of Nurgle are fighting great weapon troops (say ironguts or bestigors so WS3/4 and S6).

Odds of taking a wound per attack (hit/wound/save/ward):
Disc Rider: 1/2 * 5/6 * 1/2 * 2/9 = 0.046 (about 1 in 22)
Daemon Prince: 1/6 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 0.037 (about 1 in 27)

While the disc rider is better against cannons, the daemon prince has the charmed shield and has other benefits. Lore of Death, tougher against most opponents in combat, much improved combat ability, unbreakable.

Doommasters
05-02-2013, 22:17
I think it is fair to say you can keep him pretty save versus cannons with the sheild and monstrous units, LOS etc. Stone throwers on the other hand are not going to be as forgiving so how do you get around those?

Double Hellcannons?

MoT disk exalted talism pres, thrid eye for great save as a warmachine hunter?

Multiple Chameras?

Malorian
06-02-2013, 01:04
But the daemon prince is more resilient in combat.

Let's assume a disc rider with 1+ armour save, 3+ ward (re-rolling 1s) and stubborn crown vs daemon prince with 1+ save (charmed shield) and Mark of Nurgle are fighting great weapon troops (say ironguts or bestigors so WS3/4 and S6).

Odds of taking a wound per attack (hit/wound/save/ward):
Disc Rider: 1/2 * 5/6 * 1/2 * 2/9 = 0.046 (about 1 in 22)
Daemon Prince: 1/6 * 2/3 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 0.037 (about 1 in 27)

While the disc rider is better against cannons, the daemon prince has the charmed shield and has other benefits. Lore of Death, tougher against most opponents in combat, much improved combat ability, unbreakable.

Bloodthirsters are also good in combat, that's not the issue, the issue is the liability in the shooting phase.

VampireOrcElf
06-02-2013, 01:56
Wether hes in combat or standing in my flank purple sunning me to death. im still gonna scream the crap out of him :p

RuneGrey
06-02-2013, 03:57
To be fair, isn't 'strong but needs to be deployed well and has some weaknesses' about where we want the Daemon Prince to be at? That implies that he's at least somewhat balanced, and isn't going to just run over everything in one go. And there are some things you can take to stop him.

Remember that even if you can get a cannonball into him, that's not a guarantee of instant death - you've still only got a 50% chance to do enough wounds to kill him and only a 60% chance of him not ward saving himself. I think cannons should be restricted to D3 wounds myself, which makes most monsters more viable but still means that they are threatened by having 2 of them aimed at the target. Large blocks of troops do fairly well against most monsters and large targets, and I don't think cannons need to be as much of an auto-counter now.

Don Zeko
06-02-2013, 06:34
Bloodthirsters are also good in combat, that's not the issue, the issue is the liability in the shooting phase.

The flipside here is that armies without cannons or stone throwers (like mine!) are kind of at a loss as to how to deal with him. With a 1+ save and T5, it's hard to imagine crossbows actually killing the guy before he gets in close combat, and once he gets there he's never coming out and almost certainly gets those wounds back. So it seems to me that the real question wrt a Daemon Prince is how many of your opponents are likely to have 2 cannons, 2+ stone throwers, or bolt thrower spam.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-02-2013, 08:25
Overall I think people are getting ahead of themselves drooling over monsters and not thinking about watchtower and Blood and Glory.

Thoughts?

Yes: Too much thinking isn't good for the game. Nothing wrong with drooling about monsters! I mean what's the worst that could happen? Losing a game...?:eyebrows:

lordlorien
06-02-2013, 09:39
Wether hes in combat or standing in my flank purple sunning me to death. im still gonna scream the crap out of him :p

Apart from Cannon fire, this is always my worst fear for my WoC army as a whole ... well maybe 13th from Grey Seer is up their too. But that is not only DP problem but the whole army is weak against those things. I do think though that Chimera and DP are also good counters for the Gheist since he will most likely be gone on the charge of either (or in case of DP badly wounded). And being Flying Monsters they will be able to reach the Gheist in many cases. At least that is my hope. Will have a few games against VC in 10ish days to try my theory ;).

Shimmergloom
06-02-2013, 09:50
The flipside here is that armies without cannons or stone throwers (like mine!) are kind of at a loss as to how to deal with him. With a 1+ save and T5, it's hard to imagine crossbows actually killing the guy before he gets in close combat, and once he gets there he's never coming out and almost certainly gets those wounds back. So it seems to me that the real question wrt a Daemon Prince is how many of your opponents are likely to have 2 cannons, 2+ stone throwers, or bolt thrower spam.

If DP's become the new cheese, then the fact that WoC and likely DoC will have them, means that everyone who can take 2 cannons, 2+ stone throwers and chukka spam, is going to do so.

Remember how everyone started taking the fire banner to combat regen, so regen dependent players, stopped taking those units in mass? Or when VC ethereal spam, meant everyone started taking cheap magic weapons, combined with all the enscorcelled and other magical attacks out there, meant that 3 spirit host spam ethereal's disappeared?

You'll see a ton of war machines and shooting the next few months, until the next new cheese comes out to change the meta again.

Althwen
06-02-2013, 10:15
Proper debate raging.

Just getting something straight:
You guys think that Daemon princes (and by extension Chaos sorcerors) are still able to purchase magical armour and cast their spells?
I played the previous edition of WoC like that, but after readin the new rulebook I've kind of gone over to the other side.

I'm going to play my first 2k game with new WoC tonight and here's my DP I'm bringing:
Mark of Nurgle
Lvl 3
wings
chaos armour
scaly skin
flame breath
soul feeder
ASF sword from BRB

that's a 2+ 5++ with -1 to hit in CC. ASF, breath weapon and thunderstomp can all trigger Soul Feeder gift.
Use Nurgle's signature spell for dropping next to blocks and flaming them. And hope for some 6's on Nurgle lore attribute.

I like that he's a LD 9 character that is mobile (Our units don't need looking after, really)
He provides a threat in almost all phases.
O, I should mention there's no cannon armies in my metagame. So he's pretty safe from getting 1-shot.

ArtificerArmour
06-02-2013, 10:33
If only they'd swapped unbreakable for stubborn, he may not have been that bad. However, he's utterly, truely broken.

kramplarv
06-02-2013, 10:47
Just getting something straight:
You guys think that Daemon princes (and by extension Chaos sorcerors) are still able to purchase magical armour and cast their spells?
I played the previous edition of WoC like that, but after readin the new rulebook I've kind of gone over to the other side.

here comes a thread with correct answer to your question!

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?364095-WoC-sorcerors-and-magic-armour

kramplarv
06-02-2013, 10:58
If only they'd swapped unbreakable for stubborn, he may not have been that bad. However, he's utterly, truely broken.

No. He is not. he cost a lot of points and when he dies, he will give up so many victory points that it might do it impossible for WoC to win the game.
He is a tough piece yes indeed. But he is not "utterly truely broken". if that would have been the case, everyone would have had the same opinion like you. And since I disagreee, your statement is false.

Maybe you don't like him very much, but that wont make him broken.

Azmodian
06-02-2013, 14:08
This is the other part of it, people talk about their awesome DP and all the chims they are going to have flying around and don't realize how many points of your army this is going to take up, and what a low break point you are going to have.

Plus chims or trolls aren't going to block stone throwers.

It's a major risk and I definately think this DP talk will go away once people try them in a tournament and get smacked with a quick massacre loss when they face a bad match up.

Hello Malorian (big fan of the battle reports)
I can't remember if you have Chaos or not, I do know you play the green tide. I've played WoC since 2000 and one thing you learn over time is that you will be out numbered and everything will cost so many points it hurts. I don't have the new book yet and I cannot wait to get it! (stupid hobby shops are all out) but I went with a Daemon prince in the older book and it wasn't because it was the best, it was because it was not expected and a HUGE intimidation factor when playing in tournaments.

What I've learned with DP is to use terrain to your advantage (to hide him from cannons) and then run him as fast as possible to the flanks (using cover as you can) and more then anything luck.

For me the DP is more about having one that looks fantastic on the field rather then number crunching.

I love doing things that are not normal for chaos. I always wanted to do a chariot list with chaos for laughs, and now I CAN!

Lord Inquisitor
06-02-2013, 14:38
Bloodthirsters are also good in combat, that's not the issue, the issue is the liability in the shooting phase.

Bloodthirsters and other greater daemons aren't exactly considered bad despite their vulnerability to cannons. A Bloodthirster isn't a level 4 death mage either and can't take a charmed shield, if you could have these two things you'd see 'Thirsters a whole lot more.

Malorian
06-02-2013, 16:04
Bloodthirsters and other greater daemons aren't exactly considered bad despite their vulnerability to cannons. A Bloodthirster isn't a level 4 death mage either and can't take a charmed shield, if you could have these two things you'd see 'Thirsters a whole lot more.

Fair enough but, like I said at the start, DoC players always complain about how their greater daemons are a liability in blood and glory.

To me I see the new DP as a solid pick BUT if you're going to a tournament you have to assume it's going to cost you over the 4-5 games, and with that in mind you are making it very hard to actually win a tournament.

VampireOrcElf
06-02-2013, 16:37
Watch out for his flyt bubble, cause he can easily hop you continuously if he has to, a good counter to gheists is death magic (Spirit leech) even on a level 1 cause he has Ld 4, YOu will most likely kill it out right or pull alot of dispel dice in the process

Lord Inquisitor
06-02-2013, 16:47
Fair enough but, like I said at the start, DoC players always complain about how their greater daemons are a liability in blood and glory.

To me I see the new DP as a solid pick BUT if you're going to a tournament you have to assume it's going to cost you over the 4-5 games, and with that in mind you are making it very hard to actually win a tournament.

Going into a tournament with DoC, I know that cannons are going to be a pain. Not just Blood and Glory really, any time you lose 1/4 of your army, your general and your level 4 in one shot turn 1, that's going to be an uphill struggle after that.

However, if you can mitigate cannons/stone throwers long enough to reach the safety of combat, you can usually do just fine. For me, with Daemons that safety net is Siren Song. As long as I don't go second and have nowhere to hide, I can usually drag something into combat to use as a living shield for long enough that my furies can make it in.

With use of terrain, a chimera as a living shield and a charmed shield, plus counter-battery fire from hellcannons and the Prince's own death magic, you can probably make it to combat reliably enough to not worry overly about throwing a tournament even if you do hit an opponent with 3 cannons or whatever.

ThomThomKC
06-02-2013, 16:55
Like others have said cannons and throwers are his main threat. I played a 2k game against HE last Saturday and being that all he had was a couple eagles, 30 seagaurd, 9 Dragon Princes plus a lord included, 30 swordmasters, and a mage on foot. I had a lvl3 Nurgle DP with flying, 1+ armor save, the gift that gives +1 spell and +1 to dispel, and the gift that lets you regain wounds on a 6. Along with that I had a unit of 20 warriors, a unit of 22 warriors with BSB, 2 units of dogs, a Chimera, and a 3 man Skullcrusher unit. I knew the game was over before it began. As long as I didn't get death sniped I was going to be fine. Which did infact happen, but it only took me down to 1 wound before I made it into combat and started regaining wounds. The DP by himself took out the seagaurd unit. Took 3 rounds of combat due to bad rolling on my part, but even with all his HE spearmen attacks I only had to make 2 armor saves in 3 rounds. Hitting on sixes and wounding on sixes without re-rolls for HE is bad news. I must say however that having the Chimera and Skullcrushers would certainly make me think twice before putting the bullseye on the DP if I were the opponent. In the end more often than not the DP is till going to be the biggest threat, but none the less taking him with other potential nasty targets helps your case. Especially with the charmed shield having those other targets can tip the scales. Not saying its the right play but if an opponent looks over and sees they could kill a monster out right or severly hamstring a unit of Skullcrushers or shoot at the DP who will just disregard it on a 2+ anyway.....I could see them potentially choosing the Chimera or Skullcrushers over the DP.

DaemonReign
06-02-2013, 16:58
If only they'd swapped unbreakable for stubborn, he may not have been that bad. However, he's utterly, truely broken.

I wouldn't know about utterly truly broken but I certainly agree he should've kept Stubborn and instead gotten Another wound.

Mullitron
06-02-2013, 17:26
At the moment they look great on paper and I think one of the reasons the prince looks good on paper is because they are pretty darn good in the game. That being said I think the number of Woc players using them will dwindle over the next few months but we will have to wait and see.

So are most people thinking of taking the lore of death for their Daemon prince? I initially lent towards the lore of Nurgle, as it's attribute (and the augment from curse of the leper) looks like it could be a deciding factor in keeping the prince alive until it gets into combat where it can then use it soul feeder gift to keep it going.

Lord Solar Plexus
06-02-2013, 17:36
Like others have said cannons and throwers are his main threat. I played a 2k game against HE last Saturday and being that all he had was a couple eagles, 30 seagaurd, 9 Dragon Princes plus a lord included, 30 swordmasters, and a mage on foot.

Wow, that seems awfully small. Are you sure you agreed on the same point size? How much is a Seaguard again in vanilla Warriors?

Malorian
06-02-2013, 17:45
For me the DP is more about having one that looks fantastic on the field rather then number crunching.

I think this is a big part of it. People are more happy to use an awesome model than anything else.


I use super orc for the same reason ;)

warplock
06-02-2013, 17:51
Wow, that seems awfully small. Are you sure you agreed on the same point size? How much is a Seaguard again in vanilla Warriors?

A Seaguard with shield is 1 point less than a vanilla Chaos Warrior.

ThomThomKC
06-02-2013, 17:55
Ya its seemed small to me as well compared to my force, but I knew it was right because its the same 2k list he has been running for a while. I built my list as an all comers. Wasn't tailoring based on what I figured he would bring. 99% of my matches are in league format so I never know who I'm gunna play so all comers is kinda ingrained in my brain.

Azmodian
06-02-2013, 18:00
I think this is a big part of it. People are more happy to use an awesome model than anything else.


I use super orc for the same reason ;)

I'm tempted to try and make super orc a side kick... just kidding

Lord Inquisitor
06-02-2013, 18:03
I think this is a big part of it. People are more happy to use an awesome model than anything else.

Being at least not a liability helps though. I can't remember the last time I've seen a daemon prince fielded against me ... at least, one on a square base anyway...

Malorian
06-02-2013, 18:42
I've had it a couple of times but it was rare, and just by people doing it for fun.

I still see it as a liability though. Especially after the meta change. Already we were seeing more warmachine thanks to skullcrushers being on top of mornfang and demigryghs, the new WoC is just going to push this faster.

So if you play WoC, get your fun from the DP while you can, it won't be long before we see maxed out cannon lists again.

Hallock
06-02-2013, 18:59
I would run 2 or 3 units or ogres with my prince to try and avoid cannonballs, not full proof but it can be done. Plus, the ogres are sick in the new chaos book.

Malorian
06-02-2013, 19:01
I would run 2 or 3 units or ogres with my prince to try and avoid cannonballs, not full proof but it can be done. Plus, the ogres are sick in the new chaos book.

Why would you not take trolls instead?

warplock
06-02-2013, 19:21
Why would you not take trolls instead?

Who are literally sick in the new (and old) Chaos book.

Arguleon-veq
06-02-2013, 19:29
I totally agree Malorian. Far too much of a liability, Id really like to include one as I like my Belakor model but I cant justify it.

Im not even too keen on the Disc Lord as he doesnt actually do much. I am very tempted for a Lvl4 Disc Sorc and take Metal. Helps deal with Demigryphs and Mournfang and has afew other decent spells, very hard to kill, provides mobile magical attacks to deal with any pesky ethereal, wont have to be my general thanks to low LD. Can warmachine hunt if he must.

I play empire with 3 cannons as well as chaos, I would be pretty pleased If I seen a DP Id be worried if i was facing a 3+ ward disc rider.

Malorian
06-02-2013, 20:16
I think people put too much faith into the charm shield too. Ever since I learned you use it on the first hit and not the first wound it's been a lot less helpful.

ThomThomKC
06-02-2013, 20:23
Cuz that ST10 hit doesn't wound on a 2+ or anything......:shifty:

Malorian
06-02-2013, 20:43
Cuz that ST10 hit doesn't wound on a 2+ or anything......:shifty:

It has more to do with the magic missile or arrows they send in first to strip off the charm shield save.

datalink7
06-02-2013, 21:23
It has more to do with the magic missile or arrows they send in first to strip off the charm shield save.

That is true. But then you are paying 5 points to nulify one round of shooting from a ranged unit or forcing a magic missile to be cast to most likely no effect, which is a pretty good deal itself.

As for me, I agree that the DP isn't the be all end all. However, I do think it is a viable choice. I will be taking both the charmed shield and a unit of trolls to hide behind.

Lord Inquisitor
06-02-2013, 22:05
I think people put too much faith into the charm shield too. Ever since I learned you use it on the first hit and not the first wound it's been a lot less helpful.

This is true. It rather depends on what else you bring to the table and how well you can actually reach out and touch that flying daemon prince. Most of the cannon heavy armies don't come with much to strip off that charmed shield. Ogres, for example often have no other BS shooting (although scouting maneaters would probably strip that charmed shield very fast) and most Empire armies I see these days don't seem to have a lot of BS shooting. And hiding behind that chimera will help keep BS shooting off you too.

In any case, the charmed shield is a must for the prince to help out. Worst case you force the opponent to waste a spell or some shooting to strip the save and it still gives you a 1+ save.

Leth Shyish'phak
06-02-2013, 22:15
Might be worth a mention; Slaanesh Princes can have up to two different spells that give an enemy unit Random Movement (D6) (one of which can be cast as a 12" bubble). If you drop one of those on a cannon/stone thrower then it will be forced to move and be unable to shoot. Not the most reliable plan, but it could help a lot if it works.

Doommasters
06-02-2013, 23:41
If the DP was anymore dependable than he allready is it would probably be the most dirty lord in all of fantasy. If dp's start dominating which I doubt more ranged weapons will come into effect but then you lack hitting power in close combat something WoC excel at (especially with all the fast attack units they have now).

If your opponent has four war machines yea the DP is in trouble but at 1 or 2 and can you mitiagte their effectives to some extent. The fact you can fly a dp right into a mage bunker and assasinate him/her early in the game is massive, not to mention you are unbreakable.....not much can kill him outside magic and warmachines so it seems fair he has some weaknesses.

Xerkics
07-02-2013, 00:15
If DP's become the new cheese, then the fact that WoC and likely DoC will have them, means that everyone who can take 2 cannons, 2+ stone throwers and chukka spam, is going to do so.

Remember how everyone started taking the fire banner to combat regen, so regen dependent players, stopped taking those units in mass? Or when VC ethereal spam, meant everyone started taking cheap magic weapons, combined with all the enscorcelled and other magical attacks out there, meant that 3 spirit host spam ethereal's disappeared?

You'll see a ton of war machines and shooting the next few months, until the next new cheese comes out to change the meta again.

Sorry how is it different from what we see now? What skaven, empire , ogre , dwarf army doesnt have 2 cannons in it? Considering that those can kill monstrous cavalry and ogres why wouldnt you take them anyway?

Shimmergloom
07-02-2013, 01:24
Dwarf armies are rare to see. Empire meta has become lots of demi's + carts + 2 cannons. The gunlines of the past are in the past. That really just leaves skaven and ogres, with ogres being the big meta army that everyone seems to use right now.

So DoC and WoC players only need to worry about that one army's cannons in the current game meta. But if that changes, they'll need to start to worry about, OnG, the return of empire gunlines, skaven, ogres, the rare dwarf player as well as of course other woc and doc players.

So it is exactly like ethereals. When VC came out, the meta was that magic weapons had largely fallen out of favor for the standard GW instead. Then ethereals showed up and instead of only having to worry about DoC and the rare WE player, suddenly everyone started to make sure they had a magic weapon around to counter them.

And for all we know, Dwarfs may become the new hotness for dealing with DP's as they can sit back and shoot while still having good combat troops and they are much less bothered by the other WoC tricks like chims and HC's.

But my main irritation at DP's are that it looks to force people into taking more war machines to deal with it. And lots of war machines are boring. But so is letting 1 model wreck your whole army.

Malorian
07-02-2013, 01:32
I know I'm tempted to take dwarfs to the next tournament.

MR. GRUMPY
07-02-2013, 11:30
I think this is a big part of it. People are more happy to use an awesome model than anything else.


I use super orc for the same reason ;)

The DP is a little bit more competitive then super orc.

Lord Solar Plexus
07-02-2013, 11:41
But admittedly only half as awesome.

logan054
07-02-2013, 16:19
Bloodthirsters are also good in combat, that's not the issue, the issue is the liability in the shooting phase.

A daemon prince with kit actually costs less than a naked bloodthirster and will over a decent amount of punch, if you wanted you could happily take one with magic levels (1-2) at 1500pts (while you can't even tale a greater daemon at that level), and still have some points for kit, also, unlike a greater daemon it isn't a large target, so for cannons it has things like walls it can hide behind, units it can hide behind, charmed shield, dragonbane gem (for dwarfs), then it also has access to a S4 breathe weapon. So if it gets in combat (which if used correctly it has a fare chance) it can also charge the biggest and most powerful units and just grind them down, for just 10pts it can start getting back wounds.

I think with units like savage orc big uns it going to be very helpful, even if its just to charge in, hold them up for a turn and get rid of those strength 5 attacks so something else can charge in and take few loses.

It isn't going to break the game but it has a lot going for it, MR3 does seem tempting incase of light brigade armies or even death snipe armies.

Clockwork
08-02-2013, 21:56
So coming from a Lizardman perspective, I'm pretty stumped as to what I would do against a Daemon Prince. I don't have any of the tools discussed above that are hard counters (ie, cannons). With a 2+ armour save and 5+ ward its going to be dicey getting poison through, even in volume, and with a potential 2+ ward there isn't really a hope in hell of magic (Thanks, Collar of Khorne). Meanwhile his stat line is good enough to withstand all of the uber spells in the BRB, which includes meaning every unit in my army hits on 5s at best - oh, and its Unbreakable to boot. Cool.

A tooled up Oldblood may be able to go toe to toe with it (Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Armour of Destiny?), but other than that I've got nothing.

Doommasters
08-02-2013, 22:15
So coming from a Lizardman perspective, I'm pretty stumped as to what I would do against a Daemon Prince. I don't have any of the tools discussed above that are hard counters (ie, cannons). With a 2+ armour save and 5+ ward its going to be dicey getting poison through, even in volume, and with a potential 2+ ward there isn't really a hope in hell of magic (Thanks, Collar of Khorne). Meanwhile his stat line is good enough to withstand all of the uber spells in the BRB, which includes meaning every unit in my army hits on 5s at best - oh, and its Unbreakable to boot. Cool.

A tooled up Oldblood may be able to go toe to toe with it (Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Armour of Destiny?), but other than that I've got nothing.

How does someone stop you from casting every spell in a lore with your slann?

Clockwork
08-02-2013, 22:31
How does someone stop you from casting every spell in a lore with your slann?

For a start, I don't like to assume I'll have enough power dice.

But as noted, my go-to direct damage spells (Banishment, Searing Doom, Caress) won't do much good against the MR3 and 5+ ward and neither will the characteristic based spells (Dwellers, Purple Sun, Pit of Shades).

I suppose what you are indicating is that I should get off all the buffs from something? From which I would need to reliably inflict 5 wounds past Toughness 5, a 1+ armour save and a 5+ ward, or else in the next turn it can just gobble all its wounds back.

That's what, 24 strength 6 hits? 48 attacks at WS5 or above, and 72 at WS4 or below. So Mindrazor, then?

Doommasters
09-02-2013, 01:06
For a start, I don't like to assume I'll have enough power dice.

But as noted, my go-to direct damage spells (Banishment, Searing Doom, Caress) won't do much good against the MR3 and 5+ ward and neither will the characteristic based spells (Dwellers, Purple Sun, Pit of Shades).

I suppose what you are indicating is that I should get off all the buffs from something? From which I would need to reliably inflict 5 wounds past Toughness 5, a 1+ armour save and a 5+ ward, or else in the next turn it can just gobble all its wounds back.

That's what, 24 strength 6 hits? 48 attacks at WS5 or above, and 72 at WS4 or below. So Mindrazor, then?

What I mean is not every army can deal with everything with a flick of a wand. Take your Slann not much WoC can do to stop you casting the spells you want with all your magic abilities.....Now this guy costs 350+ points stops you taking a level 4 and can only be in one place at once with 5 attacks not exaclty what I would call game breaking in an army of few units.

Knifeparty
09-02-2013, 01:44
Death Magic all the way. A tooled up level 4 with death magic should be able to dispose of Daemon Princes, Hellcannons and Chimerae pretty easily.

Unless he took the MR 3 item, then you're ****ed

Kalandros
09-02-2013, 02:39
I think if he did he has mark of khorne and not nurgle so he's easier to hit. Don't have the book but I think that Mr3 was restricted to Khorne Marked princes?

snottlebocket
09-02-2013, 06:15
Meh, he's hard to kill. He's also expensive as hell and only packing five basic attacks. He'll probably spend the battle flitting about trying to recoup his cost by wrecking artillery and such. Unbreakable will let him hold up almost anything but he won't be doing much other than holding up a unit that way.

He doesn't really seem that bad.

Mullitron
09-02-2013, 06:49
The collar for mr3 is mark of Khorne only and expensive so I doubt you will see it much outside of teamed lists. So magic is still viable, it does however have the potential to inflict quite a bit of damage. 5 attacks arnt that great, but it also has thunderstomp, a flaming strength 4 breath attack with the option to become a level 4 caster with the lore of nurgle or death. (Which if they choose they can also get a gift for an additional spell to improve their chances of getting that one nasty spell).

It's nasty, it's one of the few eggs in a single basket characters that can actually work. But it's expensive and can all go wrong for your opponent quickly.

SilasOfTheLambs
09-02-2013, 07:29
My club and I have compiled a list of things that have a decent shot at killing DP's. I will include things that are already mentioned, so be patient.

-Cannons
-Bloodthirsters or (maybe) other greater Daemons. I think this is actually pretty one-sided.
-Speculums.
-Bolt Throwers. This is a sneaky good choice given the big fella's low number of wounds and the low point cost of most iterations of the bolt thrower.
-Banishment Spam. This list did pretty well at a tourney in November before the book, and his armor save isn't going to hold up to 3d6 s6 or something if it gets off.
-Things that stop him hitting. No hatred, and ASF means no charmed shield. I know he doesn't die to combat res, but you can tarpit him forever.
-Dragonhelms. A lot of these guys will be flaming, and if you can tie him up in a challenge forever, you should kill the rest of the army easily.
-Giant skavenslave/zombie tubes. Won't kill him, will tie him down so he won't bother you.
-Mass s5, Particularly savage orcstars. Need a lot of attacks but it could be done.
-High elf elites, especially white lions. They'll go first with enough hate to bury him.
-Ghoul Kings/Vampire Lords with ASF powers and trickster's shards. This would work best if he were on a horse (to avoid Tstomp), but it's not mandatory.
-Getting charged by a grail knight bus. He'll probably kill a fair number, but they have their ward and can't be stomped.

I doubt this is an exhaustive list, and certainly the DP is hard as a rock, but he's not unbeatable, and people will rapidly come up with answers. Lizardmen, as noted above, are going to struggle, but this is warhammer; if you get in a mode where you're always thinking of yourself as the rock and getting pissed about the paper, you're not going to have a ton of fun. He doesn't have all that many attacks for his cost, and doesn't have many wounds. I think we'll see a wave of daemon prince lists (and I've certainly retooled mine), but the metagame will shift to compensate, like it always does.

Vipoid
09-02-2013, 09:35
-Ghoul Kings/Vampire Lords with ASF powers and trickster's shards. This would work best if he were on a horse (to avoid Tstomp), but it's not mandatory.


Well-tooled-up Ghoul Kings have a decent chance, Vampire Lords don't. They badly need the rerolls from Quickblood, and I8 on the DP denies them that. They're not going to win that fight.

If the DP has Mark of Nurgle, then the Ghoul King doesn't stand much chance either.

Clockwork
09-02-2013, 10:51
What I mean is not every army can deal with everything with a flick of a wand. Take your Slann not much WoC can do to stop you casting the spells you want with all your magic abilities.....Now this guy costs 350+ points stops you taking a level 4 and can only be in one place at once with 5 attacks not exactly what I would call game breaking in an army of few units.

I can see your point. However, magic is unreliable, even with a Slann. Its 350+ points of good investment, but the winds of magic could roll low; he might have a dispel scroll to take out the game breaker, he could get the lucky double 6 to irresistibly dispel, or just dispel normally.

But a 350+ MR5 1+ unbreakable flying DP? It could roll into a Slann and his Temple Guard - or anything he likes, really - on turn 2. The first turn he kills the Champion. The second turn he challenges out the Slann, who has to refuse. Now the unit loses his leadership 9/10 and his BSB re-rolls, and that unit is held up for the rest of the game until either I get really lucky and push that key spell through that allows the Guard to do just enough damage to kill it; or he kills the unit off; or they fail their LD8 Cold-Blooded (which will happen eventually if I keep having to test it); or he has time to bring something else up to join the fight (or I do).

Its borderline game-breaking, but I want to see how it actually plays out first before calling it that. At this point I will just say its a huge PITA.

I almost wish every DP does take wizard levels so that I can 6 dice something and transfer the miscast thanks to Cupped Hands :P But then he won't have the Khorne MR3 and will be viable to a good Banishing anyway.

snottlebocket
09-02-2013, 11:13
I can see your point. However, magic is unreliable, even with a Slann. Its 350+ points of good investment, but the winds of magic could roll low; he might have a dispel scroll to take out the game breaker, he could get the lucky double 6 to irresistibly dispel, or just dispel normally.

But a 350+ MR5 1+ unbreakable flying DP? It could roll into a Slann and his Temple Guard - or anything he likes, really - on turn 2. The first turn he kills the Champion. The second turn he challenges out the Slann, who has to refuse. Now the unit loses his leadership 9/10 and his BSB re-rolls, and that unit is held up for the rest of the game until either I get really lucky and push that key spell through that allows the Guard to do just enough damage to kill it; or he kills the unit off; or they fail their LD8 Cold-Blooded (which will happen eventually if I keep having to test it); or he has time to bring something else up to join the fight (or I do).

Its borderline game-breaking, but I want to see how it actually plays out first before calling it that. At this point I will just say its a huge PITA.

I almost wish every DP does take wizard levels so that I can 6 dice something and transfer the miscast thanks to Cupped Hands :P But then he won't have the Khorne MR3 and will be viable to a good Banishing anyway.

That's a worst case scenario that relies on the lizardmen player to do absolutely nothing. A turn 2 charge means making a beeline for the Slann's unit, which makes it very predictable and probably wide open for every blow pipe, salamander, stegadon artillery and spell in the army. Not to mention easy to counter charge with... well anything you want.

A single cheap screen of skink skirmishers would prevent it from charging the slann's unit at all. So that means a turn 3 charge on the slann's unit at best. Hey a second very cheap skink screen would prevent rear charges as well... now you're looking at a turn 4 charge at best. And that's with minimal effort on the Lizzie's player's side.

To be honest that demon prince looks incredibly hard to kill and that's about it. It can go and pick on small units and artillery like any other flyer or it can go and tarpit something, which would probably make it the most expensive tarpit in the game.

And even that protection only goes so far. The new interest in monstrous cavalry already means that artillery and other ranged defenses are on the rise which just makes the field more untenable for the demon prince. He's become less of a push over with some interesting customization options but that's about it. I'm far more worried about skull crushers to be honest, those things look ridiculously good for their points.

popo
09-02-2013, 11:37
Isn't tarpit unit often the loosing side of these trades. My question is that which is then the tarpit unit DP or the unit it charged?

Clockwork
09-02-2013, 12:30
That's a worst case scenario that relies on the lizardmen player to do absolutely nothing. A turn 2 charge means making a beeline for the Slann's unit, which makes it very predictable and probably wide open for every blow pipe, salamander, stegadon artillery and spell in the army. Not to mention easy to counter charge with... well anything you want.

You seem overly optimistic. It can fly with a 10+best of 3d6" charge. That could put it far outside effective range. Then lets consider its stats - you would need 6 shots for every one poison wound inflicted. So that's 42 shots. Then it bounces a third on its ward. Salamanders? Well, they have a 50% chance of getting past the armour but they are also wounding on 6s. Stegadons? 275 points for a BS3 single shot, possibly at long range. Counter charge? Sure - it sucks in another unit that struggles to damage it and won't be able to break it at all.

I'm not so bothered that its incredibly hard to kill, or that its unbreakable - its the combination of both these things that I despise. However, as I said I want to see it in action - and I'm playing the new book today at 3000 points so we will see how it goes.

jdo
09-02-2013, 12:36
Hi!

DP of Tzeentch (no magic) + chaos armour + fly + flaming breathe +scaly skin + charmed shield + opal amulet (4+ward first wound) + soul feeder + posion + devastating charge
= 410 pts. Save 1+, ward 4+/5+ reroll 1, ignore first hit - this is my setup vs empire.

cheers

medevilmike
09-02-2013, 13:06
4w 5t 1+5++...not that hard to kill at all. soul feeder only regains him wounds on 6's. other then flying and unbreakable(which is huge) my doombull is harder to kill and killier then him. No one will take khorne outside of fluffy armys, so MR3 is not a concern.

On a plus note the whole WoC book has made a stealth upgrade to bolt throwers.

Vipoid
09-02-2013, 13:11
4w 5t 1+5++...not that hard to kill at all. soul feeder only regains him wounds on 6's. other then flying and unbreakable(which is huge) my doombull is harder to kill and killier then him.

How is your doombull possibly harder to kill? :confused:

medevilmike
09-02-2013, 14:37
1+4++ 5t5w?with asf...flying and MoN both make dp harder to hit in combat but outside of combat i.e. the first 2 turns dooms is definatly harder to kill, not to mention the LoS! roll I could get(dont field regular minos, but I could)

the key difference is target saturation vs the silly amount of chaff beasts can take. WoC have more then 1 cannon target where as my beasts list has just the solo dooms and 85 ways to stop warmachines

Vipoid
09-02-2013, 15:13
1+4++ 5t5w?with asf...flying and MoN both make dp harder to hit in combat but outside of combat i.e. the first 2 turns dooms is definatly harder to kill, not to mention the LoS! roll I could get(dont field regular minos, but I could)

I'll grant you that the Doombull is probably a little tougher to kill outside of combat, but I believe the DP wins once it reaches combat.

Also, the fact that it has wings means it can generally pick it's fights, whilst the Doombull is slower, less manoeuvrable and far more susceptible to tarpitting.

medevilmike
09-02-2013, 15:27
I agree that once it hits combat it is a whole different world but mostly because of unbreakable, 1 turn of whiffing and dooms can get ran down, but I welcome most units to "tarpit" the dooms.

sulla
09-02-2013, 18:41
On a plus note the whole WoC book has made a stealth upgrade to bolt throwers.Agreed. Other than vampires, all the recent books have with their high armour, low toughness, lowish wound count monstrous cav. Suddenly there are things that bolt throwers can actually wound/kill as opposed to monsters, which bolt throwers are pretty woeful against.

Lord Inquisitor
09-02-2013, 19:23
They're still just not enough. A friend was running 4 bolt throwers for quite a while in his O&G and they just don't hit enough to ever be a real threat.

snottlebocket
09-02-2013, 20:19
They're still just not enough. A friend was running 4 bolt throwers for quite a while in his O&G and they just don't hit enough to ever be a real threat.

Most non goblin bolt throwers tend to be run by elves who are considerably better at it.

Rudra34
09-02-2013, 20:28
Most non goblin bolt throwers tend to be run by elves who are considerably better at it.

Considerably? They will hit on a 4 at long range instead of a 5, and you can get 3 gobbo chuckers for the price of a single elf bolt thrower. Doesn't sound a whole lot better to me.

dementian
09-02-2013, 23:36
Considerably? They will hit on a 4 at long range instead of a 5, and you can get 3 gobbo chuckers for the price of a single elf bolt thrower. Doesn't sound a whole lot better to me.

But the spear chukkas have 1/6 chance to misfire. And mine are REALLY good at it :P

Zoolander
10-02-2013, 00:09
But only at Saturday night, or? ;)

LOL I was thinking that same thing!

sulla
10-02-2013, 00:38
But the spear chukkas have 1/6 chance to misfire. And mine are REALLY good at it :PHeh, last time I played an O&G army I took 4 and got exactly what you'd expect out of 120pts of shooting. You get what you pay for with O&G ones. You get considerably less fron Elven ones IMO.

Trustey
10-02-2013, 01:40
What's good about them? They are flying lvl 4 sorcs that aren't the MoT Sorc Lords everyone is sick and g-damn tired of seeing. They can kill a lot of generals out there. They can have a breath weapon and fly to line it up perfectly. The modeling possibilities are way cooler than the MoT Sorc Lord.

My anvil will be Nurgle just for that reason, pretty good defense and maybe situationally better than MoT... I don't know I don't mathhammer. But most importantly not MoT. It's just played out and known for cheese. Nurgle cool factor.

From a powergamer perspective this means nothing.

VampireOrcElf
10-02-2013, 02:10
take 12 spear chukkas, one is bound to hit

warplock
10-02-2013, 16:36
One spear chukka hit would cause an average of 0.66 wounds against the DP, I believe.

BattleofLund
10-02-2013, 17:21
I think that using a Tzeentch Warshrine is a better blocking unit as well, only a 1/3 change of wounding it at all with a cannon ball and only a 1/3rd chance of killing it if it does take a wound. But I don't see the Daemon Prince being any more vulnerable than your average level 4 disc lord, he's just more expensive and better able to take care of himself. It's more a mark of that cannons make large chunks of many army lists vulnerable to just being shot off the table than a weakness in the daemon prince himself.

Is a Warshrine a 'blocking unit' at all? I don't think so. The BRB lists the 'if not slain, no cannonball bounce' categories as MI/MB/MC or Monster. The Warshrine is a Chariot. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Lord Inquisitor
10-02-2013, 21:08
That's right, it's a chariot now so it doesn't stop cannonballs. This is going to be a point of confusion because in the old book it looked like a chariot (in the artwork) but it was a monster and therefore caught cannonballs. Now with the new book it looks like a monster but it's actually a chariot, although it doesn't get any of the good stuff from being a chariot, like swiftstride or impact hits.

Poor warshrine, it couldn't thunderstomp when it was a monster and it can't do impact hits now it's a chariot.

Perfectionz
10-02-2013, 21:25
I know I think somewhat out of the box with my list building and tactics in the same, but I thought I would put in my 2 cents with the video that Mal put up about the subject. For those who have not seen it, this is what I posted:

I am totally siked on taking a demon prince mal. Talking about large numbers of points with him and another lord is exactly what I do anyway. I find that played in the correct circumstances he can fit both the role of a monster and the role as a great points denial unit. Me being able to pay more for a unit that I already tried to pay max points for is like having my cake and eating it too. You have also seen first hand how well points denial can take form while playing against me. =]

This tactic has proven itself to me many many times as the way to go. Though I have not played on the internet very much, or even having posted zero battle reports on warseer, I have played Mal a few times and thrown my best at him with the tactics here.

Shimmergloom
11-02-2013, 20:15
Chukkas are still good even if you need 5's to hit, because you can only take 2 lobbas, but can take 6 chukkas. So throw in 4 chukkas and 2 lobbas and that is a pretty good shot at taking out the DP.

Protect your best units with fanatics/manglers and make it even more difficult for the DP to tie up your savage horde in a locked combat.

The main problem will be what the DP brings with it. If there's 2-3 Chimera's coming along for the ride, then you are in big trouble.

Malorian
11-02-2013, 20:20
Multiple chimeras will mean the return of the flaming banner to my lists.

VampireOrcElf
11-02-2013, 21:28
Chukkas are still good even if you need 5's to hit, because you can only take 2 lobbas, but can take 6 chukkas. So throw in 4 chukkas and 2 lobbas and that is a pretty good shot at taking out the DP.

Protect your best units with fanatics/manglers and make it even more difficult for the DP to tie up your savage horde in a locked combat.

The main problem will be what the DP brings with it. If there's 2-3 Chimera's coming along for the ride, then you are in big trouble.

play 3k points, take 12 chukkas, 4 lobbas, 4 doom divers :)

medevilmike
11-02-2013, 22:35
yeah but at 3k u have to deal with 2 dp and up to 6 chimeras...granted that would pretty much be the whole army, with crap tons of vanguard dogs...i would actually toss a few dollars to see that battle report.

TsukeFox
11-02-2013, 23:24
Multiple chimeras will mean the return of the flaming banner to my lists.

And with the Rise of big Papa Nurgle & more units getting regen is becoming a regular thing these days.

Lore of life
Lore of maw
Flying hydra
Lore of Nurgle
Mortis Engine + Crypt Horrors
Oh and that scary regen save given by the Necrotect-

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2013, 23:39
Did the flaming banner ever go out of fashion? It's been a staple since the beginning for me.

Maoriboy007
12-02-2013, 02:31
And with the Rise of big Papa Nurgle & more units getting regen is becoming a regular thing these days.

Lore of life
Lore of maw
Flying hydra
Lore of Nurgle
Mortis Engine + Crypt Horrors
Oh and that scary regen save given by the Necrotect-

Nice :)

and dont forget the Heirophants regeneration save, I always do :)

Gaargod
12-02-2013, 03:44
A Khorne DP with MR3 and Charmed Shield is exceptionally hard to kill for a monster, agreed.

Yet it does mean, at anything short of 3k, you're unlikely (or impossible) to be seeing Sorc lords, which means they'll only be having a (few) Lv2(s). This does mean they cede magical advantage. And whilst MR3 protects against direct damage, it doesn't prevent Debuffs or Buffs to its opponents. For example, Temple Guard with boosted Flesh to Stone will bounce this dude all day (or as long as you can keep the spells going!). More offensively, Mindrazor or combos of debuffs + nukes will work to kill it easily enough (hell, if you hit it with a -3T and -WS, it'll start taking a lot of saves...).

Lv4 DPs are a bigger issue, and a more attractive one to my mind. A Nurgle Lv4, whilst expensive with all his toys, will chew through stuff with very little downside. An army with cannons might be able to stop it, but everyone else has issues (and even with cannons, it's entirely possible it'll survive. If it's stood just behind a wall/chimera, that's irritating. You can definitely strip the charmed shield... if you have something to shoot at it. Stone throwers will avoid the wall, but they're distinctly less accurate than cannons anyway).
A DP with helpful terrain can be in combat turn 2 rather safely, and one there will be having a whale of a time unless you get remarkably lucky debuffing and hitting it (or have a tricked out combat lord to knock it sideways).

TsukeFox
12-02-2013, 04:08
Nice :)

and dont forget the Heirophants regeneration save, I always do :)

Me too darn it all!!

Personally I always though the Kings & Princes should have regen as well like in the "Mummy" the way Imotept regened like a beast.

Anywho

Daemon Price
Just another way to diversify the Warrior book.

sulla
12-02-2013, 04:34
Did the flaming banner ever go out of fashion? It's been a staple since the beginning for me.It was with me until I started facing red fury vampires with 2++ wards vs flaming, chainsawing through entire units. now I'd rather take my chances with high strength hits.

Malorian
12-02-2013, 14:02
Same here, I was seeing more things with a ward against flaming than units with regen.

(Bloody Chaos Dwarfs...)

Shimmergloom
12-02-2013, 14:08
Chims and the possibility of woc troll hordes makes me think the flaming banner will be needed again.

I never worried about it, because VC players would rather take 3 scream lists than a crypt horror horde and the only other OnG player in my area, I haven't seen in a year. So I wasn't worried about regen.

Even with Chims, it would be like super hydras, since they can easily avoid your flaming banner unit. Troll hordes though a lot of times can't.

On the other hand, probably the best way for an OnG player to combat WoC troll hordes is with our own troll hordes + ruby ring to try and do a wound to them before you start foot of gorking them.

Malorian
12-02-2013, 14:24
I'm actually wondering if I should be putting the flaming banner on the bsb, put him in a shooting unit, pluck off a wound from a chim or troll with some arrows, and then blast away with warmachines.

Probably more reliable than getting 2 spells off.

Lord Inquisitor
12-02-2013, 14:26
It was with me until I started facing red fury vampires with 2++ wards vs flaming, chainsawing through entire units. now I'd rather take my chances with high strength hits.


Same here, I was seeing more things with a ward against flaming than units with regen.

(Bloody Chaos Dwarfs...)

Fair enough - certainly I found I moved the flaming banner off my main units too... And some opponents learned to do the same when they got hit by a gutstar with two ogre characters in the front rank with 2++ vs fire.

But I still have the flaming banner in my list, just not on my primary heavy hitter. Usually something like a unit of demigryphs, that can respond to regen or flammable troops.

Shimmergloom
12-02-2013, 14:55
I'm actually wondering if I should be putting the flaming banner on the bsb, put him in a shooting unit, pluck off a wound from a chim or troll with some arrows, and then blast away with warmachines.

Probably more reliable than getting 2 spells off.

You could do that, but if you are playing OnG, do you think troll horde vs troll horde would benefit us, or them? We should have a lot more support, but they would have better quality support.

Malorian
12-02-2013, 14:57
You could do that, but if you are playing OnG, do you think troll horde vs troll horde would benefit us, or them? We should have a lot more support, but they would have better quality support.

We would be better at taking it down at range but they would be better in combat due to their spells.