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View Full Version : 'Loyalist' SMs in the Age of Apostasy/Fluff idea



Jape
05-02-2013, 22:58
Hi guys, here with a question. What were the Smurfs up to during the Age of Apostasy, most importantly did any chapters back Vandire?

The only fluff I've found on it is a white wash, claiming the chapters were isolated by warp storms (all of them!?) and had just been itching at the bit to kick Space Hitler's ****, same with the Adeptus Mechanicus. Now this may be canonically true but it sounds to me like an official story put out after the fact. Once the Thorians were gaining momentum, weary power blocs moved against a weakening Vandire who they had at least offered tacit support to prior. After all Vandire's reign lasted a century and considering his personal armies had enough freedom of movement to dominate swathes of the galaxy, I find the warp storm excuse partially true at best.

Despite being a nutter, Vandire was head of the Imperium and in terms of his actions' results was effectively just (just!) a genocidal zealot. That doesn't sound like something the Smurfs would find all too horrifying considering, save a few exceptions, they aren't very nice people themselves.

Does anyone have any more detail on individual chapters or the Smurfs in general during the period?

I ask out of curiousity as I'm planning to get back into the game with a simple vanilla SM army but a bit of interesting fluff always helps IMO. Taking the forgiveness towards chapters like the Lamenters who fought the Imperium under false assumptions, as long as they went on crusade, I thought a chapter that defended Vandire under the pretext he was the legitimate ruler of Terra might get a similar fate. After all the Sisters of Battles were his praetorian and they remain.

My idea was a band of 'pauper knights' dubbed the Marines Penitent*, forever crusading in ancient, rusting gear in the name of forgiveness for their fanatical support of Vandire. However this is the secret of the chapter, not too mention their records being (supposedly) the only left from the period that show other chapters, both great and small, backed the madman before turning. As such they are shunned and feared by a select few who know their significance. Unlike the issue of the Fallen, I see this as a more political problem than 'moral' as plenty of institutions switched sides during the Age of Apostasy, but the Smurfs obviously are invested in their role as the best of the best. As such the Marines Penitent are looked down as reminders of a black episode in the history of the Astartes the rest have tried to forget.

In my mind I imagine the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Black Templars would have been pro-Vandire (:angel:) at least to start off, being so either by the book or zealous his insanity is no bother. Indeed I imagine a lot of Smurfs would have only turned once he disrespected their autonomy.

*Either as a single chapter who renamed themselves after or possibly as a new 'exile chapter' for Loyalists who stuck it out and went against their own rebellious comrades.

Any comments are appreciated.

Tastyfish
05-02-2013, 23:48
I don't think the Ultramarines would have back Vandire, I think they would be completely loyal to the Imperium and merely perhaps opened a couple of vaults with contingency plans should they just have no choice, but to take over.

It's a very good point though, though at the same time I can see a lot of the chapters being very, very cautious to get involved in a civil war again. Afterall, marines were a small minority of the heretics last time, but look how that is seen now.
Then again, the way the Maelstrom mess managed to escalate makes it seem unlikely that they'd stay that clear of it all, unless the Admech was also throwing a quiet power play into the mix knowing that the marines owe far more loyalty to Mars than they do the Terra.
Did the Titan legions get involved, if so then the marines certainly did - if not, it might be a combination of the marines considering it a 'human' issue or a Ecclesiarchy mess, and Mars calling it's favours in and putting it's pieces to the side with an eye to what happens after.

Of course, this is the second time it's happened, the last time (the Nova-Terra interegium) coinciding with the Birth of the modern Imperium as we know it and the disappearance of the last primarch.

Jape
06-02-2013, 00:34
I have to admit I was half-joking over the Ultramarines but anything to sully their boy scout image. Though I meant more they would have worked with him pre Thor to put down the various heresies and rebellions, seeing stability under a tyrant as better than anarchy. While the Templars must have loved the hardcore zealotry surely, at least until it became an unstable personality cult, one seen as attempting to eclipse the Golden Throne.

I agree on the Mechanicum, very good point. It truth I see Vandire's fall as much more a coup than a civil war, with the Thorians being more a trigger that shows he is not untouchable. This then allowed the various power blocs to move against him. From what I've read it seems like the coup members moved against Terra directly rather than an all-out war, and then accepted Thor into the fold to reform the Creed and possibly to keep him under control. After all, despite being the 'good' guy, he is a populist revolutionary happy to go against the (semi) legitimate rule of Terra. Perhaps Mars and the Astartes were worried if they didn't act, Thor might conquer the Imperium and simply replace Vandire as tyrant.

My question was quite general and vague so I certainly agree with your answer. Rethinking it, I meant I believe such a 'Loyalist' chapter (one of very few) would have, in the chaos of the moment fought Thor or at least opposed him (say not allow him into their realm of control) in the name of being servants of the Emperor, which rightly or wrongly is represented "on Earth" by Vandire and his puppet High Lords. However the situation quickly changes with the death of Vandire, making them far from being defenders of the state to being the dogsbodies of a dead dictator. Basically they have failed to keep up with the changing political situation, which most chapters either have by joining the coup or were smart enough to remain completely aloof from in the first place.

Leftenant Gashrog
06-02-2013, 01:47
One of the old Citadel Journals mentioned Vandire planning to replace all Astartes Chaplains with Ministorum Preachers - he abandoned the idea after annihilating the Angel's of Wrath chapter for their refusal to comply. If word of that got out I can't imagine many chapters being inclined towards obedience. Altho its curious to note that the Fire Hawks ARE ardent followers of the Ministorum Creed, maybe they started out loyal to Vandire and changed sides?

MajorWesJanson
06-02-2013, 07:08
Because the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus don't follow the Imperial Creed, they weren't all that affected. They are effectively independent Fiefs within the Imperium as a whole. Blood of Martyrs has a pretty good section on those two during the Reign of Blood.


The Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Mechanicus had both become estranged from Terra, fortifying their own fiefdoms while undertaking their traditional duties as best they could. Space Marines still stood against marauding aliens and the Forge Worlds of the Mechanicus still churned out the arms and armaments needed to defend humanity from their many enemies. Yet, both institutions did so according to their own judgement, rarely coordinating their long-term goals with those of Terra. Now, the Chapter Masters of the Adeptus Astartes and the Fabricators of the Adeptus Mechanicus began to voice their concerns. Gastaph Hedriatrix, Fabricator General of Mars and the very highest of the servents of the Maching God, issued a demand to the Holy Synod. The High Lord must be indited and called to account for his deeds. In response, Vandire dissolved the Council of the High Lords of Terra, and ordered what forces he had left to assault those of the Adeptus Astartes and Adeptus Mechanicus who questioned his authority. Needless to say, most of Vandire's commanders refused such a suicidal course of action, and the insane High Lord condemned these as heretics. Finally, the Fabricator-General saw that he and his allies had no choice but to depose Vandire themselves. A vast army of Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-Guard, spearheaded by four chapters of the Space Marines- the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers, and Black Templars, launched themselves towards Terra to beseige the Ecclesiastical Palace.

A.T.
06-02-2013, 08:42
In my mind I imagine the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Black Templars would have been pro-Vandire (:angel:) at least to start off, being so either by the book or zealous his insanity is no bother.Vandire would have had greater authority over the space marines as High Lord prior to overthrowing Paulis and taking the mantle of Ecclesiarch - as master of the administratum, and given the political situation at the time, he would have had most control over the marines near Terra and within segmentum pacificus (following the fall of the Ur council of Terra Nova) - so Ultramarines certainly, but probably not Templars.

When he became Ecclesiarch he did start a campaign of wiping out other cardinals claiming to be 'curtailing the undue power' of the Ecclesiarchy, he could certainly have picked up the support of a chapter or two in the process but he was never mentioned as trying to bring the Astartes into the fight.

It's a pity GW/forgeworld focus on the heresy instead of the far more interesting Apostasy.

m1acca1551
06-02-2013, 10:32
It's a pity GW/forgeworld focus on the heresy instead of the far more interesting Apostasy.

Give them time... :)

HBT
06-02-2013, 10:58
Hi guys, here with a question. What were the Smurfs up to during the Age of Apostasy, most importantly did any chapters back Vandire?...

Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but in 'The Age of the Imperium' (pages 124 - 125; 5th edition Hardback Rulebook), there is a timeline.

'The Age of Apostasy' is followed by 'The Age of Redemption', which lists 'The Abyssal Crusade'. This says -

'The judgement of Saint Basillius. Thirty Space Marine Chapters are found wanting. The guilty embark upon a crusade into the Eye of Terror, to purge those worlds stolen by the birth of the Dark Prince'.

I'm not 100% sure that these 30 SM Chapters sided with Vandire, but it looks like it as this judgement was pronounced after 'The Great Cull'.​ If so, and they were sent on the crusade to atone for their taking Vandire's side, then you've got a lot of scope to choose from.

HTH

Cheers

A.T.
06-02-2013, 11:08
If so, and they were sent on the crusade to atone for their taking Vandire's side, then you've got a lot of scope to choose from.Basillius was reconned to be a servant of chaos sending chapters of marines to their death, unrelated to the apostasy.

HBT
06-02-2013, 11:13
Basillius was reconned to be a servant of chaos sending chapters of marines to their death, unrelated to the apostasy.

Fair enough.

Hengist
06-02-2013, 11:36
I had been pondering this a while ago; these were my rambling thoughts on how I'd fill out the events of the Age of Apostasy from the Astartes' perspective.

* Bear in mind Vandire's reign lasted 70 years, so there was plenty of time for attitudes to him to change. Moreover, it occurred in the wake of the 900-year Nova Terra interregnum, a time over which the Imperium had become increasingly fragmented, and at a time at which warp storms made long-distance travel difficult or impossible. For the sake of it let's presume a Black Crusdae was going on too; maybe Doombreed's - everybody loves Doombreed, and he's not been much mentioned of late, poor fellow.

* Few Astartes would likely have cared about Vandire's initial rise, being secular and independant by nature or in any case busy administering their own territories and defending the Imperium from external threats. This applies particularly to the Ultramaries (and their successors), who may as well be presumed to have been busy ruling their 'Imperium Secundus' in the Ultima Segmentum. These events might even be presumed to have increased their influence in the galactic East, as without orders or help from Terra, who better to turn to than the boys in blue. Other chapters not mentioned in the history of the Age of Apostasy could be presumed to have done much the same.

* As Vandire's Stalinist lunacy became more apparent, an opposition arose within the High Lords (let's say the Fabricator General, the Paternoval Envoy and the Speaker for the Chartist Captains) while the other seats were filled by his lackeys. Fearing another schism, the Inquisition sent representatives in an effort to reason with Vandire, but having met with no success, turned their efforts to facilitating his prompt demise while keeping the Imperium together.

* Being unable to control or influence the Astartes, Vandire refused to sanction new foundings. The Adeptus Astartes, with the assistance of the Mechanicus, resorted to the impromptu emergency creation of new chapters to replace battle losses. These would later be reclassified as the thirteenth through twenty-first foundings (neatly explaining how nine of twenty-six founding took place in the early part of the M36.)

* The Imperial Fists and those of their successors who could be gathered reaffirmed their oaths as the Emperor's praetorians and defenders of Terra, and returned to Earth to depose Vandire/seek guidance from the Emperor himself. Others who had fought against Vandire (or perhaps in penitence those who had, at least initially, followed his orders) were impressed by Sebastian Thor and abandoned their secular ways for worship of the Emperor (explains why a few chapters apparently do worship him, rather than following the Imperial Truth as tradition dictates).

* Still offended by the Astartes' interference, decades later the resurgent Ecclesiarchy sent thirty of the chapters founded during the AoA on a suicidal crusade into the Eye of Terror. (This has, of course been contradicted by the latest Chaos codex, but it's a more appropriately dark explanation than 'a Chaos cultist did it'. Perhaps Konvak Lann just killed him and then said 'He was... err... a cultist; going to argue?'.)

Just my two gold pieces' worth, of course.

A.T.
06-02-2013, 12:16
For the sake of it let's presume a Black Crusdae was going on too; maybe Doombreed'sDoombreed was in 723.M36 (5th black crusade, after the end of the apostasy). The 4th crusade was Abaddon again at the start of M34.

There were several other important marine-related events though - the pale wasting saw Eleven entire chapters lost fighting the xenarch about a millennia before the apostasy, the howling half a millennia before would have likely cost the lives of many more lost in the warp, and by the time of the apostasy there had only been 21 foundings including the original - most of only a chapter or two and the last being the cursed founding immediately before the Apostasy.

With all the xenos incursions during the Terra Nova interregnum, and the huge Hrud uprising in 980.M35, it's likely the marines were pretty thin on the ground.



As Vandire's Stalinist lunacy became more apparent, an opposition arose within the High Lords (let's say the Fabricator General, the Paternoval Envoy and the Speaker for the Chartist Captains) while the other seats were filled by his lackeys.The Fabricator General was (ultimately) opposed to Vandire - however the admech was in the middle of two civil wars at this point in time.
The Ordo Assassinorum was also in the midst of a civil war instigated by Vandire himself.


One reason the marines probably didn't become involved would be the events of M35 - the administratum had been trying to weaken the Ecclesiarchy for centuries by infiltrating lackeys into high positions, leading to the ecclesiarchy moving away from Terra and the rise of the Frateris templars. The cataclysm of souls and the end of the Ur council was the Ecclesiarchy's own failed attempt to seize power away from the high lords in response. The back and forth between the church and high lords was old hat by the time that Vandire seized power of both and his initial actions (killing other cardinals and claims of reducing the influence of the ecclesiarchy) were probably welcomed until his true intent became clear - too late for the high lords to stop him as he must have controlled some two thirds of the imperiums military might outside of the astartes at that point.

TheDungen
06-02-2013, 12:47
the inquisition didnt do squat about vandire they were all to busy arguing about if sebastian thor was the emperor reborn. its in the thorian sourcebook page 4 (atleast in the digital version).

=Angel=
06-02-2013, 14:59
Hi guys, here with a question. What were the Smurfs up to during the Age of Apostasy, most importantly did any chapters back Vandire?




Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chaos) and Ork (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ork) attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Ecclesiarchy) becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire, Master of the Administratum (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Administratum), assumes the post of Ecclesiarch, becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor (today the Sisters of Battle (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Sisters_of_Battle)), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and becomes more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros, homeworld of the Fire Hawks (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Legion_of_the_Damned)' chapter, is thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still in existence today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Space_Marines), organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs


378.M36 The Terran Crusade. Perhaps the finest hour of the Black Templars, the Terran Crusade saw the warriors of the chapter fighting the corrupt forces of the insane Goge Vandire. The Black Templars remained independent of the fighting until they returned to the Segmentum Solar and found several Chapter Keeps had been destroyed by Vandire's forces. High Marshal Sigenandus declared a Crusade to bring the traitor to answer for his crimes and alongside the Imperial Fists, Soul Drinkers, and Fire Hawks the Templars laid siege to the Ecclesiarchal Palace. The war lasted months until Champion Navarre led a last ditch effort to secure a breach in the outer walls of the Palace. The battle raged around him as the Templars fought against the Frateris Militia but the warriors of Apostate had the numbers to make up for their lack of skill, and casualties were high including the Company's Banner Bearer. Champion Navarre took the Banner and rallied his men to take the breach; the charge struck home and the Milita was routed, the Fire Hawks and Soul Drinkers poured into the breach to relieve the beleaguered Templars. After Vandire was executed, High Marshal Sigenandus led his warriors on a Crusade to hunt down the remainder of those who had turned from the true path of the Emperor.

Of the Templars and the Ultras, one chapter has a banner depicting the Birthworld of mankind. Hint: The banner is not blue.
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