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Terrenord
06-02-2013, 13:47
There have been a few tournaments that I would have like to go to, but the rule pack noted WYSIWYG, painted and based miniatures. Do you think this has a notable affect on the amount of people that actually participate? In light of my previous post in which I noted a decline in WHFB players, don't you think that the tounament circuit should be more relaxed about WYSIWYG at least so that more people would actually participate? Perhaps one shouldn't proxy from another army, but if I have Saurus warriors with spears maybe I should be able to proxy them as Sarus warriors with hand weapons, no?

I agree thought that miniatures should be painted and based.

Your thoughts?

kardos
06-02-2013, 13:53
WYSIWYG is very important in a tourney setting. Someone should not have to remember what his opponent has proxied. It makes charging said char/unit very dif depending how they are armed mate!

Ratarsed
06-02-2013, 13:56
Why not just take them as Saurus with spears then you are wysiwyg? I'm dead set against proxies in events and if I had my way only painted models allowed. It's a strict position to take but the game is diminished when the models are not painted and there are armies wirh unnecessary proxies.

Phenatix
06-02-2013, 14:01
As prices continue to go up and model count per box goes down, WYSIWYG is becoming increasingly expensive. The hobby costs a bit of dough to begin with, so forcing players to have even more models just to play pushes potential newcomers away even more than the outlandish prices.

kefkah
06-02-2013, 14:02
well troops should be wysiswyg, atleast the front ranks, if you got some in the back to fill out space i dont think its gonna be a problem.

But ive yet to see one wich has that on characters, ive mean ever. if your playing open lists you know what he has, and closed you dont. coupled with that you buy magic items it dont make practical. Im sure has heck aint gonna model a whip every time i take whip of agony wich is a scourge. so yeah units=wysiwyg and chars not

Asensur
06-02-2013, 14:16
At least more than 50% of the unit should be WYSIWYG, being the 'fillers' in the rear ranks and being removed first from play.

Characters should have their weapons and shields on the models. Remember that almost every Magic Weapon is considered a hand weapon, and that Magic shields should be represented with a shield on the model.

Some upgrades, such as night goblin nets f.e., should be also present in the unit. Other upgrades, such as Big Uns' or light feat heavy armour f.e., can't be shown easily in the model and don't need to be applied.


It is not a matter of money, it is a matter of respect to your opponent. It is better for you and your opponent if the models are equipped right than being asked every turn 'what did you say that proxy was?' Also, saying a troop unit has great weapons, while their models have spear+shields can give you quickly the 'cheater' tag on your forehead inside a tournament.

Terrenord
06-02-2013, 14:19
In my situation, I have 60 Saurus (40 hand weapons, 20 spears). When playing with my friends, I just put the spears in front if I'm playing spears or vice versa if I'm playing hand weapons. I switch my lists up often for variety, so creating a hard and firm list of spears or handweapons isn't in the game for me. As such, I can't play tounaments because I refuse buy scads of models just to represent a weapon choice (it's just too expensive in an already expensive hobby). The same can be said for my skinks, which still have short bows. Am I seriously supposed to buy at least three Stegadons to kit them out for every different load-out? What if I want two ancients with blowguns? It just seems unreasonable and inspires me to not participate. I think I'd rather collect a second or third amry than collect 6000 points of whatever, just so I cam play up to 3000 points in a tounament, but if you don't go to the tounaments, you have a hard time meeting people to play with.

This seems like a problem to me.

Gustav Kohn
06-02-2013, 14:24
Rare earth magnets guys...rare earth magnets. Get them small enough and they can be used for arms.

I appreciate playing against painted models and think that painting to table top standard would be awesome for a tourney, but I understand why it isn''t put into place

Rakariel
06-02-2013, 14:26
Never had a problem on tournaments if some units had other weapons displayed. There shouldnt be proxies for whole units no, but i think asking people to have every single weapon option in their army is a bit too much with prices skyrocketing lately. I think i can remember if a unit has a certain weapon even if its not displayed. Not one of my opponents had a problem with it neither tbh.

BigbyWolf
06-02-2013, 14:36
Never had an issue with WYSIWYG in tournaments, or even in general. Painted is generally encouraged, but tournaments should never include level of painting as part of the overall tournament score.

Hokiecow
06-02-2013, 14:40
Even using rare earth magnets can be a pain and pieces easily lost.

Why can't players exchange army lists with units clearly identified from the list, on the table?



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

IcedCrow
06-02-2013, 14:47
Because part of the hobby is the aesthetic. If I'm up against spearmen its nice that the spearmen have spears and not great swords.

If there are some great swords in the rear ranks I tend to not care. If its an entirely proxied unit, then that ruins the aesthetic (and it has been known to happen that I forgot your great swords are actually spearmen which affects the game)

Rakariel
06-02-2013, 14:58
If a whole unit is proxied with another unit, well thats a different story i dont like that as much neither. But if a unit of empire state troops has spears or HW&S, i think i can remember that.

medevilmike
06-02-2013, 15:40
Meh wyswyg is for 40k, trying to make me rearm my old ungors that didnt come with shields so they have shields is BS. Fantasy changes far to much from book to book and edition to edition to do wyswyg. front rank has shields? the unit has shields...telling me i have to figure out how to convert my mara with flails to have great weapons, that are not on the sprues that come with the models isnt realistic to people that only have one army.

Painted in tournys is fine but my magic swords look alot like lances on my chaos knights because they look way more pimpin that way and i have never had anyone question what they had for equipment once.

Terrenord
06-02-2013, 15:41
I would never argue that someone should be able to proxy an entire unit, or use a unit from another army to represent something, but strict wysiwyg seems more of a ploy to sell models by GW. If the front two ranks are spears and the back ranks are hand weapons, that should be good enough. Don't use Trolls to represent Kroxigor, obviously. The point of this thread is to find ways to get people out to tournaments to play, which would give them a chance to meet other players, and ultimately expand the hobby. Not find restrictive tournament rules to deter people from going.

SkawtheFalconer
06-02-2013, 16:14
I would never argue that someone should be able to proxy an entire unit, or use a unit from another army to represent something, but strict wysiwyg seems more of a ploy to sell models by GW. If the front two ranks are spears and the back ranks are hand weapons, that should be good enough. Don't use Trolls to represent Kroxigor, obviously. The point of this thread is to find ways to get people out to tournaments to play, which would give them a chance to meet other players, and ultimately expand the hobby. Not find restrictive tournament rules to deter people from going.

Always worth contacting the tournament organiser to get a ruling on whether or not they would allow a mixed unit. Not everyone understands wysiwyg the same way, and different people want to be stricter on it than others (as you can see in this thread).

MarcoPollo
06-02-2013, 16:26
Wysywig is good for estetics. And minimal points should be given to wysywig in a tournament ... enough to separate winning painting/compositions jobs from also rans. But not enough to deter participation.

Echunia
06-02-2013, 16:37
Meh wyswyg is for 40k, trying to make me rearm my old ungors that didnt come with shields so they have shields is BS. Fantasy changes far to much from book to book and edition to edition to do wyswyg. front rank has shields? the unit has shields...telling me i have to figure out how to convert my mara with flails to have great weapons, that are not on the sprues that come with the models isnt realistic to people that only have one army.

Painted in tournys is fine but my magic swords look alot like lances on my chaos knights because they look way more pimpin that way and i have never had anyone question what they had for equipment once.

This

I mean sure there are extremes but I would generally go with the rule: If it's clear then why be butt hurt about every model. Take the OP for example, if I saw that the front ranks of his saurus had spears and the rest had hand weapons and he clearly tells me that they have spears, then that's perfect imo?

The problem arises if you have identical units with different rules. Say for example 2 units of 5 chaos knights, both units have lances on the model but only one unit has lances. That would be a problem, but if he clearly told me that all knight had Esc-Weapons then I wouldn't have a problem.

Jind_Singh
06-02-2013, 16:55
So long as you tell right away what the unit has...so put all the h/w dudes to the front and mix the spears to the back - so when somone looks at them they know what is what.

Otherwise it's too confusing in the heat of a tournament - dont' forget, short games, long days = confusion!

Da GoBBo
06-02-2013, 17:04
Even though I agree with a lot that was said above, I think it is the dummest rule ever. I think everybody would love to have their mini's just the way the want to field them, but sometimes that will be a pain.

Night goblins for instance don't come with handweapons. I have 60 with bows and a 150 with spear/shield (because that's the only CC weapon they come with) but I allways field them handweapon shield. Now, I WANT the models to actually have the handweapon on them, but I'm too lazy to file away all the spearbuds and lower the spearpoints to make handweapons ... No Way! Plus, the spears look great so on the other hand I don't mind the model has the spear at all.
Same with common goblins. Right now I have a 100 with a bow and shield. Had the boxes for a long time but never used them, and am now assembling them as such. This edition that makes sense, that is how I will field them and I think it looks nice. But what if 9th comes along and that isn't even an option anymore. Am I supposed to alter a 100 painted mini's (well, not painted yet) because the rules changed? I think that's too much to ask.
If people can't remember that all my goblin units have handweapon shield, regardless of their actual equipment, or that the ones with a command group are type 1 and the ones without a command group are type 2, that seems kinda dumb to me. One can allways ask again. Now, I'm not saying people should do whatever they want. 2 identical units should be 2 identical units for instance. Things should be clear, but I don't think clear should mean WYSIWYG. There is plenty of ways to be clear while proxiing.

Another problem arises with conversion work. A friend of mine plays deamons, mixed, but with a nurgle theme. He converted ghouls to make his own horrors and it looks awesome. Shouldn't he be allowed to do that because people might not know what is happening? It doesn't seem fair and the problem doesn't seem realistic to me, and I don't think people should be penalized for being creative like that.

Now, if organizers want to force WYSIWYG onto players participating, they should do that. I don't mind at all and realize lots of players even prefer it that way, but I don't really agree. Especially not when there's options that don't really have an official model (like goblins or clanrats with HW+shield).

Snake1311
06-02-2013, 17:58
You're making a problem where there isn't one.

In my tounament experience, no one has ever had an issue with mixed units, fillers, obvious proxies, conversion, etc.

WISYWIG isn't "omg that guy isn't using the official model, burn the heretic!!!", its "can I tell what I'm looking at".

MarcoPollo
06-02-2013, 19:02
^^
I disagree slightly.

Wysywig is important to me if I care about painting scores. Alot of people care more about their painting scores than the generalship score because that helps them to sell their mini's when they leave the hobby. And, if I take the time to meet wysywig standards and my competitor doesn't, then I want some buffs for this in my painting score.

I'm not saying that this should be a major buff, but enough to separate A+ from A level work.

reddevil18
06-02-2013, 19:15
I am converting some maneaters to be WYSIWYG and its a pain in the ass when there is no bits for the option you want and because i had to spent so much time converting im worried about getting it all painted in time now.

Snake1311
06-02-2013, 20:29
^^
I disagree slightly.

Wysywig is important to me if I care about painting scores. Alot of people care more about their painting scores than the generalship score because that helps them to sell their mini's when they leave the hobby. And, if I take the time to meet wysywig standards and my competitor doesn't, then I want some buffs for this in my painting score.

I'm not saying that this should be a major buff, but enough to separate A+ from A level work.

No. You have a best painted award to aim for. Advanced painting scores should not (and very rarely do) influence final standings. There are some achievable minimums, which carry penalties if not present (3-4 colours, painted and flocked bases, painted movement trays) and on rare occasions a few points allocated for the use of any 'advanced' technique like drybrushing, washing, dipping or whatever. But there shouldn't be anything to differentiate A+ from A painting in battle scores; for that matter C to A+. Basically, a little beyond just enough to not show disrespect to the opponent by slapping down unpainted plastic.


Also, need to refocus - mine and your opinions might differ, and thats a separate discussion. My intial point still stands - namely, that no tournament I know of or have attended enforces WYSIWYG to the degree the OP speculates. I.e. Unit mixing/fillers are OK (usually a requirement of 50%+ of the unit to be equipped with what they are supposed to have), hero based mundane equipment never an issue either (is there even an offical WoC sorcerer with a shield for example?).


OP, have you ever been turned away/docked points at a tournament, or are you just being paranoid?

Ratarsed
06-02-2013, 21:15
No. You have a best painted award to aim for. Advanced painting scores should not (and very rarely do) influence final standings.
surely that depends on what you are giving out the awards for. If there is an award for best all round hobbyist then painting has to be a significant part of the score for that award


My intial point still stands - namely, that no tournament I know of or have attended enforces WYSIWYG to the degree the OP speculates. I.e. Unit mixing/fillers are OK (usually a requirement of 50%+ of the unit to be equipped with what they are supposed to have), hero based mundane equipment never an issue either (is there even an offical WoC sorcerer with a shield for example?).

GW events at Warhammer world are pretty strict. At least they are in their rules pack, although how far they go to enforce this I can't say. I've never witnessed anything banned from their events, but then I don't recall ever playing someone that was not wysiwyg or all painted at their events. That is one of he main attractions GW events have for me.


OP, have you ever been turned away/docked points at a tournament, or are you just being paranoid? I have heard a story of someone being told to remove their 2 mangler squiggs because they were in fact one mangler squigg split into 2 and put on separate bases

The Machine GoD
06-02-2013, 21:18
Proxy weapons are a pain and I have dealt with it way to much in casual play. Having to ask your opponent every turn what everything has can cause confusion. Weapons are the only thing in casual play that should be proxied to minize confusion. So many times I have charged a unit with different weapons and lost because of visually being different.

I can not stress magnets enough. There is no excuse of losing bits. I have all my bits in bead boxes. My dwarf army is currently under construction and every model has a magnet. Still have not tried shields yet.

Tournaments are usually not open list as surprising your opponent with magical items is normal.
Also most units must be able to be identified on the fly as tournaments have limited time. Also remember this is a hobby and quality of work is part of what this is all about.

DaemonReign
06-02-2013, 23:57
Also remember this is a hobby and quality of work is part of what this is all about.

Yeah I concider 'WYSIWYG' decently painted models to be a prerequisite for the game.
Makes me a bit of snob I suppose.. But come on seriously playing with baremetal-/primed-/proxied stuff just ain't the same thing..
In fact, I'd say about half the fun - which is fair 'cause you've only gone in 50% for the hobby.

Praznagar
07-02-2013, 20:14
GW events at Warhammer world are pretty strict. At least they are in their rules pack, although how far they go to enforce this I can't say. I've never witnessed anything banned from their events, but then I don't recall ever playing someone that was not wysiwyg or all painted at their events. That is one of he main attractions GW events have for me.

I have heard a story of someone being told to remove their 2 mangler squiggs because they were in fact one mangler squigg split into 2 and put on separate bases

Last Throne of Skulls I went to at Warhammer World I ran these manglers! I got best Orcs & Goblins player.

My mate got an official warning for using his awesome converted flying ghouls as vargheists (they weren't technically GW models). He won best Vampire Counts player.

The game I lost was against OK, with two half painted (well minimal gaming standard) stonehorns proxied to be ironblasters - make of that what you will!

MarcoPollo
07-02-2013, 20:18
No.

Yes!



Also, need to refocus - mine and your opinions might differ,

They do indeed.

Dr. Cheesesteak
07-02-2013, 20:32
In my area, we have a store that hosts 6 tournaments and a gaming group that hosts 1 GT. The store tourneys don't really care about WYSIWYG, but of course list exchanging is required, so there's no trickery. The GT does have a small WYSIWYG rule, I think mainly that poor counts-as/proxies will be penalized or unusable.

Me personally and pretty much every person I've played in a friendly match doesn't seems to care about WYSIWYG in Fantasy. 40k on the other hand... :rolleyes:

Ratarsed
07-02-2013, 21:47
Last Throne of Skulls I went to at Warhammer World I ran these manglers! I got best Orcs & Goblins player.

My mate got an official warning for using his awesome converted flying ghouls as vargheists (they weren't technically GW models). He won best Vampire Counts player.

The game I lost was against OK, with two half painted (well minimal gaming standard) stonehorns proxied to be ironblasters - make of that what you will!
Did you point out to the player the rules pack does not allow for proxies and call a ref over? I think a lot of the time people let things slide because they do not want to cause a fuss or be seen as the bad guy.
I also don't understand this official warning business. Either the models do conform to the rules or they do not. What function does an official warning have?
One of the reasons I have chosen to go to ToS this year is the high standard of wysiwyg. I'm not bothered about non GW stuff that is for them to police, I am bothered by proxies at tournaments. They bother me at the best of times, but in casual gaming i just bite my tongue and put up with it. But at tournaments I'd not allow it even if it did result in me upsetting my opponent.

congratulations on best O&G payer by the way. I'm taking O&G but no manglers because I dislike the models. I don't expect to do well as I've only just started with the army and will have played at most 2 games with it before the event.

popisdead
12-02-2013, 20:03
No, WYSIWYG is very important. Otherwise it allows powergames to trip up people relatively new and get away with shady behaviour.

Having said that when people have Saurus/Ungors or so that are fully painted with spears and continually remind the opponent they are HW/Sh, that should slide. GW does enough craziness without having to purchase, paint (and in some cases rebase) some 50-odd models.

Also GW never released a Wood Elf mage with a bow sculpted onto the model so some ease should be allowed.

Dr. Cheesesteak
12-02-2013, 20:25
No, WYSIWYG is very important. Otherwise it allows powergames to trip up people relatively new and get away with shady behaviour.

Having said that when people have Saurus/Ungors or so that are fully painted with spears and continually remind the opponent they are HW/Sh, that should slide. GW does enough craziness without having to purchase, paint (and in some cases rebase) some 50-odd models.

Also GW never released a Wood Elf mage with a bow sculpted onto the model so some ease should be allowed.
yeah, when I think of being picky about WYSIWYG, I tend to think more about specific bits on characters. I've played 40k where my opponent didn't like that I was using my Plasma Pistol model as a Laspistol. Or "model doesn't have scything talons, so you cant use it in the game," etc etc. Due to so many equipment options and limited modeling in Fantasy, I suppose that's why it slides more in Fantasy.

As for like massive proxies/counts-as, I suppose that's another aspect I just rarely think about. I mean, no one's complained about me using my HW/Sh Dwarf Warriors as GW Dwarf Warriors. But I suppose that's not the same thing as using my Slayers as Ironbreakers or something.

MR. GRUMPY
12-02-2013, 22:40
Out of curiosity what is GWs policy on unitfillers? Not that I will ever attend one of their events but I use them and I think they add a lot of flavour.

kefkah
12-02-2013, 23:00
Dont they got a fee you have to pay if your going to use unitfillers at official events?

MR. GRUMPY
12-02-2013, 23:07
Dont they got a fee you have to pay if your going to use unitfillers at official events?

A fee? Thats crazy. I wonder what the reasoning behind that might be.. If they think unitfillers affect the game in any negative way they should just flat out ban it.

kefkah
12-02-2013, 23:13
I was just joking, though i wouldent pass that from GW doing that :D.