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Sandrios
07-02-2013, 16:31
Are they brothers?

Possibly, they were the same age, MoS was as powerful as a Dunedain and both of their fathers will killed in a battle.

The bearded one
08-02-2013, 07:35
Im gonna say "uhm.. Noooo?" with an upward inflection at the end.

Where is the info from both their fathers died in battle?

Sandrios
08-02-2013, 08:54
Arathorn was killed in battle, MoS had a difficult family, losing some members.

The bearded one
08-02-2013, 09:40
Where does that information originate from, source? I cant find reference to a fmily anywhere.

Whitwort Stormbringer
08-02-2013, 15:45
I'm going to answer this one with a pretty solid "no."

It would seem very odd for Tolkien to write about Arathorn courting Gilraen, their marriage, and the subsequent birth of Aragorn without also mentioning the birth of another son who would go on to become the Mouth of Sauron. This alone would suggest that for Aragorn and the Mouth of Sauron to be brothers (and only half-brothers, at that), the latter was an illegitimate son of either Arathorn's or Gilraen's from before their marriage, which itself seems highly unlikely given the fact that the Mouth of Sauron is a Black Numenorean, and therefore probably hailed from Umbar or elsewhere in the south-east of Middle-Earth. It would imply that Arathorn had travelled to Umbar some time before his 50's, and was "fraternizing with the enemy"...

Furthermore, to say that they are the same age is purely speculative, since as far as I'm aware the first chronological appearance of the Mouth of Sauron is that he entered into Sauron's service when Barad Dur was rebuilt, so TA 2951. That's 68 years before the battle at the Black Gate, but we don't know how old he was when he began working for Sauron. Maybe he was only 20 or so, which would put him at roughly Aragorn's age, or maybe he was already quite old.

I don't know of anything that Tolkien wrote about the Mouth of Sauron's family, and he's supposed to have even forgotten his own name.

Sandrios
08-02-2013, 19:12
You never know

Istlod
09-02-2013, 11:28
The Mouth of Sauron is a Black Numenorean, Aragorn is a Dunedain chieftain... They're not even the same lineage as each other, though they do share the same ancestors.

Being an actual Black Numenorean and thus old enough to have likely lived through the fall of Numenor, he is also likely miles older than Aragorn.

Whitwort Stormbringer
09-02-2013, 13:27
You never know
The argument is entirely based on lack of a definitive statement to the contrary, rather than any actual supporting evidence. By the same logic I could conclude that any number of characters with unknown fathers and birthdates are Aragorn's siblings.


Being an actual Black Numenorean and thus old enough to have likely lived through the fall of Numenor, he is also likely miles older than Aragorn.I always just thought of "Black Numenorean" as just an cultural group, and being a Black Numenorean does not imply that a character is one of the original Numenoreans that turned over to Sauron's side in the Second Age, but rather their descendants. I don't know of anything explicitly stating one way or the other, though.

Istlod
11-02-2013, 11:39
I always just thought of "Black Numenorean" as just an cultural group, and being a Black Numenorean does not imply that a character is one of the original Numenoreans that turned over to Sauron's side in the Second Age, but rather their descendants. I don't know of anything explicitly stating one way or the other, though.

You know, it most likely means both.

canucklhead
17-02-2013, 23:31
Black Numenoreans would almost certainly have to be descendants. Sauron had no power to confer length of life to any, and in fact it was his influence (among other dark things) which lead to the decline of the lifespan of Numenoreans as a whole.

jprp
21-03-2014, 20:51
Way off.
You need to read the fall of Numenor.