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Lordcypress
08-02-2013, 14:40
Went up against a very annoying tooled up Chaos Lord yesterday.

Chaos Lord 400pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder, Disc of Tzeentch, Chaos Armour, Talisman of Preservation, Crown of the Damned, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm.

3+ Ward Save re-rolling 1's, 1+ Armour Save, Causes Fear, has 5 strength 7 attacks, gets 3 strength 4 attacks from the disc, flys, regains lost wounds on a roll of a 6 whenever he wounds an enemy and is Stubborn on Leadership 9.

My Orcs and Golbins got torn apart by one model. Nothing can stand up to this guy. He just flys around killing whatever he wants. The Ward Save is just over the top. Not to mention Stubborn and a 1+ armour save. I nailed him Stone Throwers, Bolt Throwers and Doom Divers. Nothing. As long as he doesn't roll a 2 all is well in the universe for the Warriors of Chaos player.

It will be very very interesting to see how the Swedish Comp. team scores this guy in their system. I could see the Third Eye with any ward save combo being hit with something around -60 to -80 right off the top. Games Workshop has allowed Warriors of Chaos to field a one man Army. It has got to be the cheesiest character build in the game now.

Asuryan's Spear
08-02-2013, 14:45
i would argue that you should just ignore him...he'll kill an average of 3 orcs a combat- he goes in alone against a horde he gets broken by static res, if he's supporting then focus on on the other unit. he's like the unkillable dreadlord. big points sink very little way of actively earning it back...he's a fighter and so in 8th cannot do anything alone

Mullitron
08-02-2013, 14:54
Well I would suggest not dealing with him, in other words accept the fact that its not going to die, try and minimise its damage and focus on the rest of your opponents list. It's not a caster but costs 400 points, that's going to reduce the effectiveness of your opponents magic phase and magic defence. Even if it hits wounds and ignores the save with all its attacks it's only killing 5 models a turn. Opponents field units all the time that are hard to kill because their ranged, can hide behind the rest of the army and cause casualties from turn one. You just take the damage they cause as a calculated risk and move on, I would do the same with The Lord.

Havock
08-02-2013, 15:00
i would argue that you should just ignore him...he'll kill an average of 3 orcs a combat- he goes in alone against a horde he gets broken by static res, if he's supporting then focus on on the other unit. he's like the unkillable dreadlord. big points sink very little way of actively earning it back...he's a fighter and so in 8th cannot do anything alone

He's stubborn, he does not care about static CR. Meanwhile he is grinding your big mob to a halt, allowing his forces to focus on weaker elements of your force, who would otherwise be supporting your main block.

One could argue that characters like this ruin the game, on the other hand they curb deathstars a bit.

Lord Solar Plexus
08-02-2013, 15:02
I'm afraid the two of you have not given the question much thought, pondered the consequences or understood the implications. This Lord is not going to fly into a horde. He's going to fly into anything and everything else and kill off all your support. Your horde is simply not going to catch him.

Secondly, he may or may not support another unit but if this unit fights to you flank and the Lord to the front, focussing on the other unit is hardly possible.

Thirdly, you better don't have characters in your unit. They will be dead or taken out of the game (no HYG, less magic from the back ranks...).

You better had no plans for those warmachines and you better don't mind -5, -6 combat res. You're probably automatically steadfast regardless of what happens...sorry but :rolleyes:

Tarian
08-02-2013, 15:06
Skaven would be throwing Slaves at him the entire game by bunkering up.

High Elves would be to swap my Invulnerable Mage into combat with him and just sitting there as he challenges and forcing break tests.

Mullitron
08-02-2013, 15:15
Yes he can kill small support units or war machines, he can support important combats and in a duel he will destroy most enemy characters. But he is a 400 point chaos lord, that's expected, any flying 400 point model is going to be a threat. Now admittedly normally you can shoot similar units to reduce their threat but that's not an option in this case. You could try your own super powerful combat lord but it would probably loose. He's hard to kill but even when flying can't be everywhere, instead of focusing on the strengths of what he has, identify what weaknesses your opponent has by taking him.

myrsnipe
08-02-2013, 15:17
Skaven would be throwing Slaves at him the entire game by bunkering up.

High Elves would be to swap my Invulnerable Mage into combat with him and just sitting there as he challenges and forcing break tests.

You can't just throw slaves at a unit that flies, then again skaven is one of the few armies that can shut down fliers pretty hard (the disc has M 1, so he isn't going anywhere if you get the spell off)

The high elf invulnerable mage is ethereal right? The disc does 3 S4 magic attacks now, so that wouldn't completely hinder him

SkawtheFalconer
08-02-2013, 15:28
I was running this build in the previous AB (minus re-rollable ward) - the disc was a weakness, I'm glad it's actually going to have some combat effectiveness now. Can it stomp? Presumably not?

Malorian
08-02-2013, 16:08
As an orc and goblin player my aim would be to tie him up with night goblins, but being he is on a disc it's him who would be picking the combats. Maybe by fleeing you could set something up.

You could try to shoot him out of the air or smash with foot of gork, but the odds are against you.

Basically I would just go on as normal and accept that he IS going to screw up one of my blocks and then just hope you can grind him down since you will be steadfast too until something joins in.

theunwantedbeing
08-02-2013, 16:25
Certain magic spells ignore ward saves, these are your best bet if you have access to them, which as Orcs&goblins you don't.
Ignore armour spells are the next best thing after that, especially if they deal large numbers of hits.

The Skull wand of Kaloth seems to be the only way you have that'll bypass that ward of his.
A giant could potentially insta-kill him though, as Anarnii further down points out.

Lance Tankmen
08-02-2013, 16:42
i see nothing wrong here, then again i play against a vampire blender and am happy to see that theres a lord to challenge him in a duel and win since my brets and DE lords have such a hard time.


Edit: guess with my DE try and hope for a lucky bolt thrower hit or tie em up in a hydra.
and my brets id meet him in single combat with my bret lord

WarsmithFarrus
08-02-2013, 16:46
Well depends what army I was to use tbh
High Elves id take a Archmage level 4 with the wanf of u pick ur spells and give him the bound spell of vauls unmaking (or give it to another character)

Gradolt
08-02-2013, 17:01
Don't forget the Other Trickster's Shard. You have 44% chance to pass his ward save with it even with 3+ and 1 being rerolled. But with 1+ Armor, h'es even harder to wound...

MR. GRUMPY
08-02-2013, 17:03
When the best answer is "Let him do his thing and hope you come out ok" you know something is wrong..

Lord Inquisitor
08-02-2013, 17:35
This could be done fairly effectively with the old book and it's simply another variation on the unkillable dreadlord. (Although the disc has been powered up - three S4 attacks? Wow)

The big downside to this lord is that he precludes a level 4 wizard unless you're playing high points values (3K+).

You can manage just as annoying a tarpit with a level 4 wizard and the only disadvantage I see is Ld8 vs Ld9.

Lance Tankmen
08-02-2013, 17:35
When the best answer is "Let him do his thing and hope you come out ok" you know something is wrong..

then i guess the vampire blender is wrong as when i face 5 S7 ASF Reroll to hits WS9 and every unsaved wound generates another attack, 5T and a 4+ ward save as well as a level 1-4, healing from every spell cast or 6 rolled after causing wounds, causing me to test on -4 LD or reroll successful hits with my lord and reroll successful wardsaves as well as cause fear and be unbreakable... hmmmm ill name what i do as a bret player, treb shot hope for a hit and fail LoS and ward save. combat res swings badly in his favor, meaning i have to have less knights or men at arms die to kill him through combat rez as most my models need 5+ to hit and wound, where he can single out my lone lord and wipe him out with 3-4 swings. yes im 6th ed but hey the WoC is 8th ed and it looks like he can take em! so all is well in my warhammer world.

Lordcypress
08-02-2013, 18:31
Malorian you better hope your brother doesn't start fielding this guy!

medevilmike
08-02-2013, 18:32
vamp is fine...dies to crumble easy enough.

I would say doom and darkness or OTS. basically magic him to death. He is flying so magic is probally the best bet he fails all rolls of 2 or 1 and 2 on rerolls. lol or tailor your list to have a flying character with OTS and obsidian sword and a ward.

I am pretty sure lore of heavens would do a bit of something to him. OR kill the bsb and then the unit of hounds near him and hope he panics

anarnii
08-02-2013, 18:46
Maybe just make sure the rest of your army can do an amazing job of destroying his army.

If your playing 2000 points, and hes lost 1600, theres a good chance you're on to a winner.

Could you eat him with giants? as its "remove from play" and ward saves wont make a difference. I could be very wrong, havent used giants in more than a decade.

Montegue
08-02-2013, 19:09
He can only reroll the 1 one time. So, yeah, it's tough. a 2 in six chance rerolled to stop it. He would be hard to bring down with standard methods. For my part, I'm thinking an Organ gun to the face might cause enough damage. I could sick my Lord on Shieldbearers on him and they can have a pillowfight all game. The Anvil can cut him out of the sky and he won't do anything at all. 1"....1"....heh. That might be really funny.

Mikael.K
08-02-2013, 19:11
First beta for WoC in the swedish comp system will be out sometime on sunday, weŽll have to wait and see :).

danny-d-b
08-02-2013, 21:12
lore of death him?
or cannon him
or ignore him- well done your 400 point dude has tied up 250-300 points of empire infantry well done

Ratarsed
08-02-2013, 21:23
Yeah, giants pick up and.... Could do it, but its long odds even assuming the giant gets to fight him.

Of course to really annoy LSP Skaven have the answer I think. Storm banner:D

Lordcypress
08-02-2013, 21:29
Why does everyone assume that the Chaos Lord on Disc is going to charge head first into a big Steadfast block of troops. Whats stopping him from oh say killing other stuff? If you were a Warriors of Chaos player would you do something like that? I know I wouldn't. I'd fly around killing all the other crap in the army and let my big Steadfast block attack his steadfast block.

dhallnet
08-02-2013, 23:25
I'd fly around killing all the other crap in the army and let my big Steadfast block attack his steadfast block.
I'm sorry since I don't see a good answer to the OP apart from giants, LD or M maluses and some other spells that bypass armor but... what are those big steadfast blocks that a WoC army has ?

bad dice
08-02-2013, 23:30
I'm sorry since I don't see a good answer to the OP apart from giants, LD or M maluses and some other spells that bypass armor but... what are those big steadfast blocks that a WoC army has ?

They don't have em

They just have small block that make your pray that yours re means steadfast cause they are kicking the **** out of you

hiredgoonthug
08-02-2013, 23:33
I think sending a unit with a decent Ward save against him and trying to grind him with combat res is the best way to go. but you have to catch him first. So maybe a cavalry unit with a turn one charge?

Gromdal
08-02-2013, 23:35
He should not be able to take out 400 pts of support so its easy to ignore him. And no lvl 4 mage. Nothing to worry about.

Praznagar
08-02-2013, 23:45
Or throw champs at him until he becomes a spawn or daemon prince. 400 VPs cha-ching! ;-)

Common gobs could do this well with 3 skulkers and a champ. Plus remember to hit him with dual manglers and a couple of pumpwagons with exploding spores.

Yeah it's a long shot but greenskins love the long shots!

Knifeparty
09-02-2013, 01:03
Lots and lots of Bolt throwers/doom divers/fantatics and mangler squigs. Just let him run through a minefield of ********

He won't want to stay out of combat for that long if he is being shot at from every conceivable angle and he's not worth anything until he gets into combat, force him to make a charge somewhere. Then deploy small units of night goblins behind your big blocks of troops so when he charges the fanatics release through your own unit (as long as you don't mind taking a few hits on your own guys) and make him sit on 3 fanatics or mangler squigs.

Take 9 Wolf Chariots and just keep impacting him to death

Challenge with Grimgore to take off a wound or 2 before Grimgore dies

Charge him with steadfast goblins and hold him up for the entire game.

Try and get 'Eadbutt or Gork'll fix it off on him too that'll help especially since he's a non-caster lord you should be able to dominate the magic phase.

WarsmithFarrus
09-02-2013, 07:32
Thinking about this last night I went back to my first fantasy army which I am currently rebuilding (Dark Elves) and I came up with this lord to take him. Best part is my lord is cheaper :)
Dreadlord Dark Pegasus Armour Of Darkness Pendant of Khaeleth Soulrender Other Tricksters Shard
1+ armour whatever your strength is thats my wardsave or below in the first round of combat I have 4 hatred filled attacks at str6 with Armour piercing . For each ward save either of us passes you have to re roll it. The Peg makes him T4 and it has 3 str4 attacks on the charge and a stomp

Rake
09-02-2013, 07:52
Ignore him. It will hurt. But focus on the fact that he doesn't have a Lvl4 mage. Take shadows and punish him for it, while keeping your mage safe.

Ratarsed
09-02-2013, 08:49
How about killing blow and other tricksters shard. No reroll of a reroll so 1/3 chance of ward failure on the reroll and 1/6 chance on the first roll. Don't know the maths but that must be about a 40% chance of failing the ward.

Da GoBBo
09-02-2013, 11:10
Seems like a lot of points for an "unkillable" model who's only purpose seems to be to manhandle chaff and mosters, and point denial. I mean, it's not like this army has problems winning combats, so his "abundance" of attacks, while nice, isn't really needed to buff a units damageoutput most of the time (as opposed to, say, a tooled vampire lord in an army of weaklings). It's scary, but also a bit over the top (in this army). Than again, the ablility to pin down a unit of your choosing wherever you want, when you want, is pretty powerfull.

I think this guy will only give a positive turnout when used right and clever, hardly a one-hit-win-button.

Don't Chaos warriors have hero casters or something? A lot of people seem to think the lads can now be dominated by magic when led by this lord, but any lv.2 mage can stop that from happening (which is not to say he won't have a hard time)

mistrmoon
09-02-2013, 23:12
Lots and lots of Bolt throwers/doom divers/fantatics and mangler squigs. Just let him run through a minefield of ********

He won't want to stay out of combat for that long if he is being shot at from every conceivable angle and he's not worth anything until he gets into combat, force him to make a charge somewhere. Then deploy small units of night goblins behind your big blocks of troops so when he charges the fanatics release through your own unit (as long as you don't mind taking a few hits on your own guys) and make him sit on 3 fanatics or mangler squigs.

Take 9 Wolf Chariots and just keep impacting him to death

Challenge with Grimgore to take off a wound or 2 before Grimgore dies

Charge him with steadfast goblins and hold him up for the entire game.

Try and get 'Eadbutt or Gork'll fix it off on him too that'll help especially since he's a non-caster lord you should be able to dominate the magic phase.

That might work but what are you doing about the rest of his army since you apparently are throwing your entire army at this one model. You are also assuming, like many other people on here, that he is going to let you charge him. Not gonna happen.

Saddly the answer is to ignore him and try and brutalize the rest of his army. A spell that lowers leadership and a lucky panic test is about the only cost effective thing you can do.

And yes I think this lord will definitely make his points up almost every game. If I were using him I'd either have him chase down expensive non-steadfast units when possible (knights and whatnot) and when there are no more worthwhile targets he'll just go tie up the most expensive unit he can find. When you consider the cost of added characters I think that very few people, if anyone, play an army without a single unit worth more than 400 points. He also has no fear of typical static res or fighting a unit to the front so you better do a damn good job hiding your LV4s.

Caiphas Cain
09-02-2013, 23:21
You should probably just buy a WoC army. Failing that, ally with an army that can use cannons.

mistrmoon
09-02-2013, 23:47
I don't see cannons being the answer. You'll probably manage 1 or 2 shots on him, depending on if you go first or second, and then he'll either charge it and kill or he'll be in combat. That one shot probably will bounce right off; assuming you hit him with the cannon ball you have a 12% chance of it actually killing him. So on average you need about HITS with a cannon ball to kill him. Good luck with that.

Saddly I think WoC have the best chance to kill him; Lore of Death for -3LD followed by a hellcannon shot (remember it only has to hit for the -1 panic check not wound). Although I suppose CD:LoA could do the same thing.

Makaber
09-02-2013, 23:47
I wouldn't give up trying to take him out with warmachines, because a wardsave that succeeds on anything but a 2 is great... as long as you don't roll a 2. And if I had a dime for every time I heard an "anything but a 1!" story, I'd have two cheese burgers by now.

It might be worthwhile to not bring juicy targets of opportunity: Bring either cheap stuff that you'll be happy he kills if it buys you a round of him not killing anything expensive, or blocks big enough to handle him. Also, load up with cheap Goblin heroes to keep him occupied in challenges, and look for your CR elsewhere.

I'd seriously consider telling him it's no fun to play against that Lord, and you'd have a better time if he brought something else.

Zoolander
10-02-2013, 00:03
I have fielded this lord very close to that build, and my gunline opponent still managed to do two wounds to him. Two volley guns at -3 armor saves with around 50 shots per turn or so meant after two turns he was almost dead. But that was rather extreme. If you aren't playing a gunline army, try to take lore of metal. Chaos hates that lore. You might be able to do some wounds that way. But honestly, the best advise has been already given. Ignore him. One model will only kill around 3 guys per turn on average. He will never make his 500 points back so you can chuckle as you beat the rest of his army with more leverage as you didn't spend 25% of your army on one guy.

Side note. If you play empire, take the amulet thing and accept his challenge and switch stats. Always pisses me off even when I know it'll happen before I charge.

Lord Inquisitor
10-02-2013, 00:07
How about killing blow and other tricksters shard. No reroll of a reroll so 1/3 chance of ward failure on the reroll and 1/6 chance on the first roll. Don't know the maths but that must be about a 40% chance of failing the ward.

With the 3+(rr 1s) the odds are 0.22 and go up to 0.44 with the OTS.

Xerkics
10-02-2013, 00:49
I think the lord of this particular build is mostly good against elite armies. And although it can be very intimidating armies like OnG probably have the least to fear from him as was mentioned before . Just charge him with something and odds are if he charges you he wont cause much damage as most units will just keep him tied up for most of the game depending on how your list is built.And even stubborn ld 9 chars die to static cr.

Lord Dan
10-02-2013, 02:25
Giant.

Hope you stuff him in his pants.

mistrmoon
10-02-2013, 05:02
I think the lord of this particular build is mostly good against elite armies. And although it can be very intimidating armies like OnG probably have the least to fear from him as was mentioned before . Just charge him with something and odds are if he charges you he wont cause much damage as most units will just keep him tied up for most of the game depending on how your list is built.And even stubborn ld 9 chars die to static cr.

But, again, you're missing the part where you wont ever charge him and almost no one plays a list without atleast a single unit worth more than 400 points including characters. So that unit won't die and he won't die but the other 1600 points of his army gets to fight the other 1400-1500 points of yours. And he is going to kill any characters in that unit so, yes, he will be earning points. And against the typical goblin unit with 3 ranks and a banner there is a decent chance we will win combat when you take into account the 3 S4 attacks from the disc.

As for the Giant:
As hilarious as this would be it's pretty much never going to happen.

The Emperor
10-02-2013, 11:38
That might work but what are you doing about the rest of his army since you apparently are throwing your entire army at this one model.

Exactly. By targeting everything you have at that character his entire army effectively has a rerollable 3+ Ward Save, as he's acting as the meat shield for all of them. All that firepower would be better served killing the rest of his army.

Von Wibble
10-02-2013, 13:43
With the 3+(rr 1s) the odds are 0.22 and go up to 0.44 with the OTS.

So without ward rerolls you need to inflict an average of 14 wounds to kill him? With rerolls 7 wounds. Given a cost of 400 points and no magic I don't think that's particularly unfair at all. Finally a non caster lord character worth taking!

Also you are looking at a level 2 at highest in games below 2500 points. That means you should expect to get through at least 2 spells per turn. High elves can destroy the 4+ ward with ring of corin/Vaul's Unmaking. Any kind of hex cast on him should mean he averages 3 kills per combat round (including his mount) - that won't break any but the weakest of support units. Buffs on your lords should ensure if they are reasonably protected themselves its a fairly even combat, and its not like people don't use lore of life...

Now, if you say he will destroy support anyway and only target 400 points of them, I think he could probably manage that without needing the reroll ward. Previously Tzeentch sorcerors could get a 3+ ward and cast spells, with as much killiness as this guy, for about the same points. And those spells for the most part could be cast from combat. I see no problem here.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-02-2013, 14:05
Thinking about this last night I went back to my first fantasy army which I am currently rebuilding (Dark Elves) and I came up with this lord to take him. Best part is my lord is cheaper :)
Dreadlord Dark Pegasus Armour Of Darkness Pendant of Khaeleth Soulrender Other Tricksters Shard
1+ armour whatever your strength is thats my wardsave or below in the first round of combat I have 4 hatred filled attacks at str6 with Armour piercing . For each ward save either of us passes you have to re roll it. The Peg makes him T4 and it has 3 str4 attacks on the charge and a stomp

Is that Dreadlord called Paul by any chance?

Ratarsed
10-02-2013, 17:24
So without ward rerolls you need to inflict an average of 14 wounds to kill him.
So how about 2 Hellblaster Volleyguns with engineers? What's the chances of them killing him in 1 round of shooting?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-02-2013, 17:32
So how about 2 Hellblaster Volleyguns with engineers? What's the chances of them killing him in 1 round of shooting?

Quite low, they only do about 1 wound on average at long range.

warplock
10-02-2013, 17:39
So without ward rerolls you need to inflict an average of 14 wounds to kill him? With rerolls 7 wounds. Given a cost of 400 points and no magic I don't think that's particularly unfair at all

Unless I've misunderstood, those odds were without armour saves taken into account? So, 14 wounds if you ignore armour saves. It's going to be much much higher than that unless you are S7 or higher, or somehow ignore armour completely... like, 30 wounds or something...

Lord Inquisitor
10-02-2013, 20:06
So without ward rerolls you need to inflict an average of 14 wounds to kill him? With rerolls 7 wounds. Given a cost of 400 points and no magic I don't think that's particularly unfair at all. Finally a non caster lord character worth taking!
As warplock says, that's 14 unsaved wounds. You have to hit him (WS9) and wound him (T5) and get through the armour (1+). For WS3/4 S6 great weapon troops (bestigor, ironguts, etc), that's 126 attacks. That's 10 rounds of combat against a horde of bestigor in combat.


Also you are looking at a level 2 at highest in games below 2500 points.
Yeah and I think this is the main reason you won't see this build. Fortunately for the WoC player, he can make almost exactly the same build (sacrificing a few attacks) using a Level 4. Which is what I expect to see. Why would you use a Chaos Lord when a Sorcerer Lord does the job just as well?

NixonAsADaemonPrince
10-02-2013, 20:22
Yeah and I think this is the main reason you won't see this build. Fortunately for the WoC player, he can make almost exactly the same build (sacrificing a few attacks) using a Level 4. Which is what I expect to see. Why would you use a Chaos Lord when a Sorcerer Lord does the job just as well?

And as you aren't worried about using a 2 handed weapon with the Sorcerer, you can pick up an Enchanted Shield and swap the Scaly Skin for that breath weapon IIRC. Very handy for roasting a horde while still throwing out spells.

Sexiest_hero
11-02-2013, 06:01
Toss a 6th spell at him, hex him with magic, or cast doom and dorkness and watch him flee. Base Lore of heavens spell works too.

Ratarsed
11-02-2013, 06:08
Can chaos sorcerers choose magic armour? I know they get chaos armour and can still cast spells but can they take a shield and still cast?

I think the build has an issue with the general flying off doing his thing leaving the main bulk of the army to cope on their own leadership.

how many points would the unkillable sorcerer lord clock in at? 500? Miscast and die!

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 06:36
Can chaos sorcerers choose magic armour? I know they get chaos armour and can still cast spells but can they take a shield and still cast?

I think the build has an issue with the general flying off doing his thing leaving the main bulk of the army to cope on their own leadership.

how many points would the unkillable sorcerer lord clock in at? 500? Miscast and die!

The only requirement to take ANY sort of Magic Armour is having basic armor or the option to upgrade to basic armor - so yes, they may take Magic Shields even if they only have Chaos Armour as basic equipment.

Vipoid
11-02-2013, 08:01
Toss a 6th spell at him

Any of the '6th' spells will only kill him on a 6.

Considering that you're practically using your entire magic phase, and potentially sacrificing a wizard to a miscast, this seems horrendously unreliable and wasteful.

If he was with a squad, then it would at least be justified by hopefully killing some of them, but when he's alone it's just a ludicrously large investment, for an unlikely payoff.

Scythe
11-02-2013, 08:24
then i guess the vampire blender is wrong as when i face 5 S7 ASF Reroll to hits WS9 and every unsaved wound generates another attack, 5T and a 4+ ward save as well as a level 1-4, healing from every spell cast or 6 rolled after causing wounds, causing me to test on -4 LD or reroll successful hits with my lord and reroll successful wardsaves as well as cause fear and be unbreakable... hmmmm ill name what i do as a bret player, treb shot hope for a hit and fail LoS and ward save. combat res swings badly in his favor, meaning i have to have less knights or men at arms die to kill him through combat rez as most my models need 5+ to hit and wound, where he can single out my lone lord and wipe him out with 3-4 swings. yes im 6th ed but hey the WoC is 8th ed and it looks like he can take em! so all is well in my warhammer world.

So because in your opinion something else, completely unrelated, is wrong as well, the Chaos Lord is ok? Two wrongs make one right, or something like that? :eyebrows:

DragonArmy
11-02-2013, 10:02
This guy is the biggest mistake to enter 8th edition. OP your point is legitimate, but it still is possible for you to win.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Ratarsed
11-02-2013, 12:26
This guy is the biggest mistake to enter 8th edition. OP your point is legitimate, but it still is possible for you to win.
I think this is why it is so important to play the scenarios and not have only VPs deciding victory and alternate deployment.

Yowzo
11-02-2013, 14:27
Giant.

Hope you stuff him in his pants.

As long as he's on a disc, he's monstrous cavalry and uses the big things table, so it's either yell and bawl, thump with club or headbutt.

I'd say hit him with doom divers, S5 hits, no AS. Needs to roll that ward save for every hit. Still, your best hope is to just hit him with a ranked unit, which will be tricky because of the flight.

Trolls, maybe. They can't be stomped, can puke through the AS and have decent M6 to try to catch him, and even if you don't do anything to him it takes a lot of trolls to make 400 points.

PeG
11-02-2013, 15:24
I play against WoC as my main opponent and I dont really see this guy as being my biggest problem in his list. He has been playing things on discs that I cant kill for some time now. My way of dealing with it is usually to either keep at least one unit, either unbreakable or big enough, close to my warmachines. Sure he can charge any one of them and kill it in a single round but after that I have a decent chance of keeping him in combat for a while preventing him from doing more useful things in the game.

When I dont have warmachines I rarely have anything that is either expensive enough for him to spend his time on or small enough for him to kill in a single round. With some armies the worst case scenario is probably to have him flank or rear charge my main block thereby efficiently eliminating both himself and that block from the rest of the game.

My WE would have a serious problem with him but on the other hand the same goes for a lot of other units in the new book. Multiple T5 flyers with thunderstomp and multiple attacks is causing a bit of a mess.... Taken together I again prefer this guy compared to a geared up lvl4 nurgle caster.

Sarael
11-02-2013, 15:41
Numerically, it's impossible for him to kill 85 gobbos so long as they don't break, and they'll always be steadfast.

Vipoid
11-02-2013, 16:13
Numerically, it's impossible for him to kill 85 gobbos so long as they don't break, and they'll always be steadfast.

Is he likely to charge 85 goblins? :eyebrows:

PeG
11-02-2013, 16:40
Only if he really, really doesnt want those goblins to go somewhere else. If I was the chaos player I could potentially consider it if the alternative is to have those goblins in a tower.

Leth Shyish'phak
11-02-2013, 16:57
That Chaos Lord is only going to charge a big infantry unit if doing so will stop them doing something game winning (such as walking into the watchtower). Otherwise, he'll be charging monsters, war machines, heavy cavalry and chariots, all of which he is highly effective against. Either that, or he charges your super-duper 1000 point deathstar and takes it out of the game. So, no, "just charging him with over 9000 goblins" is not a valid tactic unless your opponent makes a huge mistake and actually lets you do that.

gorblud
11-02-2013, 16:57
how are you going to target him with the anvil? the disk isn't large target is it?

The Emperor
11-02-2013, 16:58
Yeah, once again people have to remember that he can pick what combats he engages in. You're not going to engage him with a goblin horde. And in a situation like that he'll use some other element of his army to clear those goblins out of that tower. He's not going to tie him down in a never-ending battle when he can get inflict a lot more damage elsewhere.

gorblud
11-02-2013, 16:58
He can only reroll the 1 one time. So, yeah, it's tough. a 2 in six chance rerolled to stop it. He would be hard to bring down with standard methods. For my part, I'm thinking an Organ gun to the face might cause enough damage. I could sick my Lord on Shieldbearers on him and they can have a pillowfight all game. The Anvil can cut him out of the sky and he won't do anything at all. 1"....1"....heh. That might be really funny.

How are you going to target him? the disk isn't large target is it?

Leth Shyish'phak
11-02-2013, 17:06
How are you going to target him? the disk isn't large target is it?

In the highly unlikely scenario in which the disk is actually in a unit, then no the Anvil can't target him. You solve this complicated problem by targeting the unit that he's with and therefore slowing both the lord and the unit he is with.

Gaargod
11-02-2013, 17:31
That Chaos Lord is only going to charge a big infantry unit if doing so will stop them doing something game winning (such as walking into the watchtower). Otherwise, he'll be charging monsters, war machines, heavy cavalry and chariots, all of which he is highly effective against. Either that, or he charges your super-duper 1000 point deathstar and takes it out of the game. So, no, "just charging him with over 9000 goblins" is not a valid tactic unless your opponent makes a huge mistake and actually lets you do that.

Good shout on the Watchtower. I had been thinking it would basically never happen for him to get into combat with a big infantry block (not entirely true - if he charged something like a giant then failed to kill it, you could certainly countercharge with gobbos, and now he's stuck all game. Difficult to do, and most decent players wouldn't charge the giant in that scenario...), but that is certainly a good reason for him to charge. 85 gobbos going into the watchtower is basically game over (stupid scenario...).


Shooting warmachines at him isn't hopeless. I remember seeing a 1+/3++ chaos sorcerer last edition die happily enough (Think it was finally to Burning Alignment). But the problem is that its usually massively inefficient. What would you rather have your cannons shoot at - the Chaos Lord with a 14/18 chance to save the wound, or the big monster that's about to eat a unit?

The guy is a very useful tool for WoC, as he gives them a good option to block steadfast hordes (hopefully eating some characters in there) or go chase more expensive stuff. Works regardless of whether you're taking warriors or the new speedy army of death.

Lance Tankmen
11-02-2013, 18:48
So because in your opinion something else, completely unrelated, is wrong as well, the Chaos Lord is ok? Two wrongs make one right, or something like that? :eyebrows: you say completely unrelated but are they both not really strong lords? broken in some peoples eyes? i consider the Vampire lord very very strong at wiping out rank and file and other lords in duels, infact combat rez or his own miscasts are the few ways ive killed him but honestly if hes max point blender style, well bye bye unit of knights. where as i see this lord doing the opposite in a way, he doesnt kill large blocks(he can but people keep saying he wont charge em), he kills chaff,warmachines monsters, and his risk is becoming a DP and giving up all his points seems legit to me. personally out of the 8th ed books i had trouble finding a lord to match the VC in a duel, and with duels being my favorite thing in warhammer it sucks to know that nothing in our gaming group could go toe-to-toe with a vampire lord, but this makes me happy so no complains as i stated,he seems equal to the vampire lord for what they do except ones a level 4. also two wrongs do make a right, -5X-5 =25 :)

Lord Inquisitor
11-02-2013, 19:23
I think this is why it is so important to play the scenarios and not have only VPs deciding victory and alternate deployment.

How, exactly, do scenarios curb this build? If anything many of the scenarios make an unkillable lord on a disc an even better choice.

Malorian
11-02-2013, 19:34
God knows I would rather be facing a dics lord than a nurgle lvl 4 on foot in watchtower, but that's about it.

Raf
11-02-2013, 20:45
Bretonnians have a fairly easy solution. I already run a level four prophetess with the lore of heavens. Giver her the featherfoe torc, and place prophetess in a unit of knights. Hit the chaos lord with an ice shard blizzard (signature spell) each turn.

The chaos lord now hits on 4+ with no re-rolls. This drops his offensive ability greatly. Combine this with decent armor and ward saves on the knights (goes to 6+/5++), and the chaos lord will only kill 1-2 knights per turn. Chaos lord must make a break test every combat, with a stubborn 8 due to the spell. That becomes better than 25% chance of lord breaking in any turn. Also, the knights have enough movement to charge after the lord.

Other spells from lore of heavens can be used against the chaos lord to reduce his damage further. (Curse of the midnight wind and harmonic convergence will reduce also his effectiveness.) Still, the lore attribute for heavens won't do much more than plink off an occasional wound.

Maoriboy007
11-02-2013, 21:46
you say completely unrelated but are they both not really strong lords? broken in some peoples eyes? i consider the Vampire lord very very strong at wiping out rank and file and other lords in duels, infact combat rez or his own miscasts are the few ways ive killed him but honestly if hes max point blender style, well bye bye unit of knights. where as i see this lord doing the opposite in a way, he doesnt kill large blocks(he can but people keep saying he wont charge em), he kills chaff,warmachines monsters, and his risk is becoming a DP and giving up all his points seems legit to me. personally out of the 8th ed books i had trouble finding a lord to match the VC in a duel, and with duels being my favorite thing in warhammer it sucks to know that nothing in our gaming group could go toe-to-toe with a vampire lord, but this makes me happy so no complains as i stated,he seems equal to the vampire lord for what they do except ones a level 4. also two wrongs do make a right, -5X-5 =25 :)I'd agree except for the fact that the Vampire is unstable while the Chaos Lord is stubborn. A couple of failed attacks with a wound in return will almost certainly see that Vampire Lord dead against a unit with full CR, where a Chaos Lord can survive an (unlikely) failed break test. The Chaos Lord can operate either alone or in a unit , a vampire takes the risk of suffering instability from being alone or from his unit. The Fury Lord is a pain but with how much instability sucks in 8th ,Red Fury as more of a balancing facto, especially considering how much more killable the Vampire otherwise is compared to the Chaos Lord,actually if theres a problem it has more to do with the ASF rule IMO (not Quickblood! the ASF rule as it is in the BRB!), without the re-rolls the Fury Lord is only half as annoying.

Scythe
12-02-2013, 06:27
you say completely unrelated but are they both not really strong lords? broken in some peoples eyes? i consider the Vampire lord very very strong at wiping out rank and file and other lords in duels, infact combat rez or his own miscasts are the few ways ive killed him but honestly if hes max point blender style, well bye bye unit of knights. where as i see this lord doing the opposite in a way, he doesnt kill large blocks(he can but people keep saying he wont charge em), he kills chaff,warmachines monsters, and his risk is becoming a DP and giving up all his points seems legit to me. personally out of the 8th ed books i had trouble finding a lord to match the VC in a duel, and with duels being my favorite thing in warhammer it sucks to know that nothing in our gaming group could go toe-to-toe with a vampire lord, but this makes me happy so no complains as i stated,he seems equal to the vampire lord for what they do except ones a level 4. also two wrongs do make a right, -5X-5 =25 :)

OP post: I encountered this really strong Chaos Lord, what can I do with my Orcs and Goblins?

You post: Don't worry, Vanpires have an overpowered Lord choice as well, so everything is ok.

:wtf:

Yowzo
12-02-2013, 07:18
Good shout on the Watchtower. I had been thinking it would basically never happen for him to get into combat with a big infantry block (not entirely true - if he charged something like a giant then failed to kill it, you could certainly countercharge with gobbos, and now he's stuck all game. Difficult to do, and most decent players wouldn't charge the giant in that scenario...)

Well, that giant plus the 60+ gobbos are easily 500+ points, so you're tying 400 points with 500 of your own, most likely losing the giant's 200 in the process.

Not a good trade, IMHO.

Ratarsed
12-02-2013, 07:31
I'm not sure, play them and find out. You can only theory hammer up to a point. I'm sure there will be things that happen that no one foresees. The more different scenarios you play the harder it is to pre-plan and control the game. For example in Dawn attack you may find your lord stranded off to one side and the opponent steals the initiative. Depending on a multitude of other factors he may be at risk of getting charged by a unit he does not want to engage so needs to be very cautious, taking up a couple of turns keeping out of danger and all the time not supporting the rest of his army, or taking out enemy chaff. The thing is you don't know until you start moving your toys for real.

cold0
12-02-2013, 07:58
A local “genius” has copied the tooled up Chaos Lord in question and played his first game with the new Armybook vs Skaven. Coupled with his inability to dispel the Skaven magical phase (no Sorcerer Lord, the points were gone the CL on disc), for 3 turns of 4, the Skaven has casted Howling Warpgate and Chaos Lord hasn’t flown and relied on the disk Movement, a “good” 1. I have asked if he would never give a glace to the Skaven Army Book, and he has replied “No, I have just searched on the web the best combo for my hero”. I have shaken his hand and left him in his disbelieve……

Lord Dan
12-02-2013, 08:03
What about:

Black Orc Warboss, War Boar, Shield, Sword of Anti Heroes, Other Trickster's Shard, Trickster's Helm, Pigeon Plucker Pendant

I have no clue as to how to incorporate both the re-roll of the 1 and the successful re-rolls forced by the Other Trickster's Shard, so hopefully someone who's better at math than I am can figure that out for us.

Ghremdal
12-02-2013, 08:44
with the OTS, 4/9, or 44.44% get through.

The math is 2/3*2/3 + 1/6*2/3; that gives you 5/9 (the chance to save a wound), so 1-5/9 gives you the chance wounds get through. So basically with the OTS,the guy is treated like he has a 4+ ward save.


He is not killing much in return; even if he is attacking something with no save, he will do on average 2/3*5/6*5=25/9, so slightly more then 2.5 wounds (+ another 0.75 wounds from the disk vs T4 no save). So against a fully ranked up unit he will be losing combat every turn.

Just let him kill/get stuck in what he wants; it is unlikely that he will kill enough to make back the points invested; and you have a stronger magic phase since there is no points for a lvl 4.

Leogun_91
12-02-2013, 08:59
He's stubborn, he does not care about static CR. Meanwhile he is grinding your big mob to a halt, allowing his forces to focus on weaker elements of your force, who would otherwise be supporting your main block.And if you compare the pts cost of your horde to that lord? Can you somehow take advantage of the fact that you have a level 4 wizard while he doesn't?
If you feel he really needs to be killed then I suggest Mork's War Banner next to your general tooled for killing and an orc shaman who makes sure they always get 'Ere We Go! re-rolls, if he ignores that unit and charges another horde you just teleport over there and prepare for a flank charge, if he hunts support be content that if you don't place them so he can overrun into others he won't make his pts back (except if he is killing giants). 100pts of cheesy magic items are only worth something when you get to use them, and don't worry about him attacking the BSB, you'r general is in a challenge. Let one of the characters in base with him have tricksters as well so that he's stuck with a 6+ wardsave that is re-rolled on 6s and 1s.

N1AK
12-02-2013, 12:06
It is an incredibly good combo and a real issue is that if you choose to target him you're ability to win the game is likely to hinge on whether you take him down. If you fire your doom divers, stone throwers etc at him and don't kill him then he and the heavily armoured troops and monsters are going to run you over effectively unharmed.

Orcs in particular have very few good combat counters for him. The best you can hope to do try and stop him blocking up your combat blocks and draw him into a tarpit but that's not going to be easy against a competent opponent.

Azmodian
14-02-2013, 18:25
well 2000 point tournament on Saturday.. I will try this build but modified a bit... not a fan of GW

LordoftheBrassThrone
24-02-2013, 09:05
My method, as you play orcs, would be block of trolls. They have regen, so he's causing average 2 wounds a turn with the disc. Their 6 vomits cause about a wound every other round. Not much but best I can think of without tailoring. Otherwise Savage orc warboss with great weapon and other tricksters shard. Maybe the obsidian blade instead of great weapon, but he'd be relying a bit on the choppa rule

Havock
24-02-2013, 14:23
Feed it champions and goblin heroes until he turns into a spawn or Daemon Prince?

Hope he does the latter so you have your own turn to reposition :p

That or box him in so he has no way to place the Daemon Prince model and dies.

meanmachine
25-02-2013, 08:16
Went up against a very annoying tooled up Chaos Lord yesterday.

Chaos Lord 400pts
Mark of Tzeentch, Scaled Skin, Soul Feeder, Disc of Tzeentch, Chaos Armour, Talisman of Preservation, Crown of the Damned, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm.


what is crown of the damned, do you mean crown of command

grumbaki
25-02-2013, 09:10
Any advice on handling him with dwarfs? Seems rather hard to pin him down, artillery bounces off, and he eats artillery for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Urgat
25-02-2013, 11:46
Mmmh. I'd ignore him. He can have a go at killing one of my fragile rares once every two turns (align, charge, align, charge...) for the entirety of the game (well unless he wants to fly into one of my blocks or go after my trolls. Still win-win situation for me). During that time, it's 400 pts that, sure, will probably get 400 pts back, but those 400 pts (pump wagons, doom divers? oh, maybe he'll elect to get one of the spear chukkas instead) will have harvested many more points than that in the WoC army. Autohits? No saves? You know the warriors love those :p He charged my main block? With 3 nasty skulkers and the champions, he'll have fun rolling on the EotG table till the end of the game, he'll be a brute but he'll still kill one goblin a turn. Trolls? He won't hurt them anymore than they'll hurt him, and they cost less. That guy doesn't scare horde armies, at the very least. He's not even a sorcerer, right? I'd be more bothered with a sorcerer version of that.

NixonAsADaemonPrince
25-02-2013, 12:11
I agree with Urgat, I don't think the fighty Lord version of this build is the one to fear, rather the Sorcerer Lord with some chaff munching ability is. Can still take out those annoying flank units and war machines, while chucking out spells with Metal magic and being very resistant to any form of retribution.

RipFlag
25-02-2013, 19:25
Double mangler squig? Those 2 d6 str 5 hits are scary, even with that good of a save. Take on either side and hunt for the lord

Godswildcard
25-02-2013, 19:54
Any advice on handling him with dwarfs? Seems rather hard to pin him down, artillery bounces off, and he eats artillery for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

I'm going to try and give him something he can't pass up, and then unleash a lord specifically tooled to smack him in the head.

I'm thinking
30x GW Longbeard Rangers w/ FC, RoSlowness
Lord w/ RoSnorri Spanglehelm, RoMight, RoSpeed, RoResistance, MRoChallenge, RoBrotherhood, shield, shieldbearers
Scout the unit so that nothing can see it first turn and thus can't charge. With any luck, you'll be within challenging distance of this guy, make him charge you or flee, which either pulls him out of position or runs him off the table. If you do actually get him into combat, your lord has WS7 +1 to hit, S8, I5, 1+rerollable armour save. I'd say that 3 attacks will hit and wound, -5 to his armour. Then you've still got the longbeards adding in a few WS5 S6 attacks, plus a few ranks. 2 rounds of combat and wave goodbye to him! Meanwhile, your opponent MUST figure out how to deal with this rather killy unit in his backline, and that gives the other dwarfs a bit of time to shoot things with warmachines and kill a few things with great weapons.

Godswildcard
25-02-2013, 19:55
AAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNDDDDD

Double Post! HURRAH!

Lord Inquisitor
25-02-2013, 20:23
Double mangler squig? Those 2 d6 str 5 hits are scary, even with that good of a save. Take on either side and hunt for the lord
Let's say the Lord steps on both mangler squigs. Average hits for 6D6 is 21 S6hits with armour piercing.

Assuming 1+ armour, T5 and 3+ ward with re-roll 1s that's an average of... drumroll please while I play with a calculator... two wounds on average. :(

Avian
25-02-2013, 20:30
That has to rank as the most optimistic tactic I've heard about that's actually legal.

lethlis
25-02-2013, 21:24
He sounds scary(granted I am trying to re-learn the game right now) but just strikes me as a huge sink. Focus most of your 2000 points on his 1600 that is not doing anything. Soonest he is going to get into your lines is turn two right? Which means you have a good chance of getting two turns of shooting at his forces. If you want to increase it even more(if you have shooting) then deploy your shooting further back while everything else advances a little. Possibly giving your other stuff until turn three before he can charge.

mistrmoon
01-03-2013, 01:06
I'm going to try and give him something he can't pass up, and then unleash a lord specifically tooled to smack him in the head.

I'm thinking
30x GW Longbeard Rangers w/ FC, RoSlowness
Lord w/ RoSnorri Spanglehelm, RoMight, RoSpeed, RoResistance, MRoChallenge, RoBrotherhood, shield, shieldbearers
Scout the unit so that nothing can see it first turn and thus can't charge. With any luck, you'll be within challenging distance of this guy, make him charge you or flee, which either pulls him out of position or runs him off the table. If you do actually get him into combat, your lord has WS7 +1 to hit, S8, I5, 1+rerollable armour save. I'd say that 3 attacks will hit and wound, -5 to his armour. Then you've still got the longbeards adding in a few WS5 S6 attacks, plus a few ranks. 2 rounds of combat and wave goodbye to him! Meanwhile, your opponent MUST figure out how to deal with this rather killy unit in his backline, and that gives the other dwarfs a bit of time to shoot things with warmachines and kill a few things with great weapons.

Although I agree that this is one of the better possibilities for dealing with it there are a few big problems:
1- Your lord is averaging less than 1 wound per turn against him (and why rune of Speed? it isn't doing ANYTHING.) which means it will take you about 6 combat phases to kill him. He is going to kill your lord faster than that, not counting the disc's attacks he should have you down for the count in 2 combat phases so your lord will last 1 turn and cause 1 wound.
2- He HAS to challenge so he either only gets the lord until he is dead and never has to deal with the lord and unit's attacks at the same time. This character plus those guys is around 750-800 points. So again, while this is happening the other 1600 points of his army is killing the other 1200 points of yours.

Also that lord build is super situational, it won't be good against some armies, assuming you got to know what you were fighting I'd do the Lord with 5 hammerers and put them fairly centrally in your army. First turn he moves, you angle to face then pull him in. Do this with the Super tanker lord and the 2 of them can literally spend the entire game not doing a single wound to each other. Don't give the unit command because if you win via musician or banner he'll flee and has VERY good odds of getting away and then going to harass the rest of your army. If it is a tie forever then his ~400 points and your ~400 points can sit around for the whole game having a pillow fight, but you're lord is in the middle of your army and his won't be able to help his army with leadership checks until he closes with you.

In contrast to what I said above though, if you DO take a banner or musician then most ideal situation would be if he tries to fly down a flank (maybe you gave him a juicy target... Runed Grudge thrower + engineer+ Master Engineer) and then you force a charge so that his back is to an edge of the board and just force a break test every turn via musician and if he sticks around.. well nothing bad happened but if he flees then you'll likely either get him or he'll flee off the board.

Just thought I would add that with the tank lord in 5 hammerers you get a lord that I find is ALWAYS useful who can just be dropped into another unit and then you get an extremely solid warmachine guard with the 5 hammerers.

Xerkics
01-03-2013, 01:12
I would Convince the player that runs the lord on disk to run the Flying Daemon Prince instead arguably both less broken and better in every way :p That way you wont have to "deal" with it :p

Omnichron
01-03-2013, 08:56
For dark elves, have your peg pendant master catch him in combat somewhere, get ranked unit in for static combat, doom & darkness... Win!

Or, just let the pendant master hold him up while the rest of your army wins the rest of the battle.