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Zoolander
09-02-2013, 23:49
I've played the old Empire and never really had a huge issue with them, but this new opponent I'm facing me has floored me in three games using the new book and I'm running out of ideas. I play multiple armies, and the only one off my head that would probably beat him easily is my Dark Elves who have so many options for every situation. I play the new Warriors, VC, Skaven, Ogres, DE, and occasionally DoC or WE. Our three games were the new warriors (khorne based, made some rules mistakes and lost horribly), warriors again (this time tzeentch based, and did much better but did not win), and VC which was a total mess.

Here's what he fields in a 2k game, let me know if ya'll have any suggestions.

Lvl 4 Wizard w/ lore of life, dispel scroll
BSB w/ magic standard in 30 greatswords w/magic standard (+1 LD)
2 engineers

2 cannons
2 volley guns
1 mortor

30 greatswords
20 riflemen x2
10/12 inner circle knights

the new thing that gives +1 PD and +1 to hit in melee and creates storms

I usually end up getting shot to death long before I get to melee, and he puts himself far back so it takes 2-3 turns or more to get to him. It also doesn't help that he has gone first each game, allowing 2-3 turns of shooting. By turn 3 each game, if not before, I've surrendered. He's shot everything worth anything to death. Even when I made it to melee, his lore or life gives his greatswords either +TO or regen (or in one case both), making them rather difficult to kill.

It seems like this is a typical 7th ed dwarf scenario. I've beaten gunlines many times. But in this case, with true LoS and no aiming for war machines, he kills just outguns me. When my 15 warriors (out of 30) made it across the table (even with MoT and Blasted standard), he then proceeded to win combat with his 30 greatswords, who are stubborn LD 9 or 10 with reroll. Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s or 3s good game. New war machine rules make it impossible to shoot them now (they hide behind the TO 7 cannon). Seems like only another gunline can threaten him. But I don't play either dwarfs or empire.

Here's what I tried:

Tzeentch lord on disc, 3+ rerollable 1 ward, 1+ armor. He still managed to do 2 wounds in shooting but he survived. But his magic did very little damage. 1 dispel scroll and a level 4 wizard ended most things.
30 warriors MoT and blasted. Lasted a while, but in the end he still whittled down to nothing and it cost more than 1/4 of the army. Knights - died horribly to cannons and guns. Fast cav marauders - died turn one both units. I added a chimera and that did a little better. Killed all 10 knights and ate a war machine before being shot to death. The new tzeentch lore did not help much with nothing but direct damage or missiles.

Vampire lord on horse, thrall on horse, in 10 BK. I knew this was very risk, but with 10 and two VC I was hoping to keep them alive with IoN. Didn't work. Down to 3 guys plus VC in combat, 30 greatswords did them in. I knew that was a bad charge, that was my fault, but was really hoping to have more than 3 knights. Did raise more that turn, but they don't count as charging, and he had lore of life to gain regen. Good game.

What I'm thinking, correct me with any ideas:

Big, big units of skeletons and zombies... like 80 each, followed by ethereal knights and wraith units. I think I could get close to affording that in 2k. Put two VC in the main unit and a cheap necromancer elsewhere (not a corpse cart, that just gets cannonballed to death). That's it. That is all I can think of. I can field 10 units of 5 wolves to help draw fire, but he carefully puts his guns behind his other units, making them impossible to charge, and they are likely to die turn one or be useless in such small numbers (can't charge anything that isn't a war machine and can't charge those).

Neither VC or Warriors have scouts which might help, and access to small flyers is hard as well. I don't think skaven would have as much trouble. They have some guns of their own, big units, and scouts. The DEs would probably bring the hurt as well. But these two armies in particular, VC and especially warriors, are hard to get around. Granted, chaos has never enjoyed the gunline. I just had an easier time of it in 7th. Ogres I don't even want to put them on the table. Even with scouts, the ogres will be dead long before they can get to melee. Or they'll be killed by the 1+ save knights. And expensive TO4 no armor guys (cause everything is either AP -2 or -3 or no saves) is a bad idea.

I give him credit for developing a fine-tuned list of destruction. It works well, has a lot of synergy and packs a mean punch. I'm not complaining as much as seeking a way around the problem. I really don't want to blow the OP horn, especially after 3 mediocre games, but if I can't think of immediate counters to an army list, it does make me begin to go hmm...

Thoughts?

mistrmoon
10-02-2013, 05:10
I see you play skaven... 3 units of Night Runners (Or is it gutter runners? The Special Eshin dudes that skirmish and scout.) with poison slings will absolutely ruin his day. LOTS of slaves to absorb fire and make sure the mortar is your first target with the Night Runners. I'd also take 2 warp lightning cannons as they'd ruin his day as well and even if he gets lucky and goes first and cannonballs them they are relatively cheap. Lastly don't forget your storm banner!

His list isn't 'Ard Boyz but it's pretty hard, that's a lot of shooting so don't feel bad about throwing some back.

pippin_nl
10-02-2013, 07:54
I see you play skaven... 4 units of Night Runners (Or is it gutter runners? The Special Eshin dudes that skirmish and scout.) with poison slings will absolutely ruin his day. LOTS of slaves to absorb fire and make sure the mortar is your first target with the Night Runners. I'd also take 2 warp lightning cannons as they'd ruin his day as well and even if he gets lucky and goes first and cannonballs them they are relatively cheap. Lastly don't forget your storm banner!

His list isn't 'Ard Boyz but it's pretty hard, that's a lot of shooting so don't feel bad about throwing some back.

Agree with most of this, you can have 3 units of Gutter Runners btw. The Doomrocket & the Brass Orb will also create havoc on his army.

VampireOrcElf
10-02-2013, 08:28
His greatsword unit is tiny so focus it with shooting/magic (this is his only unit that will do combat effectively against you), mabey run 2 hell cannons if u can fit it, blast the crap out of em then once your in his face with warriors he is screwed, i would try taking 3 units of warriors so u have 3 threatening units so he cant just focus one and thats the game and by threatening i mean 30+, dont go the way of monsters they will die to fast to double cannon/ double hell blaster, or better yet run trolls they can soak cannon balls like theres no tomorrow, if you are running the lord on the disc send it straight for his warmachines

Or better yet send purple suns in every direction possible :P

Lord Solar Plexus
10-02-2013, 09:41
1) Fast stuff. Warrior blocks are slow and an ideal target for something like Hellblasters. WoC have plenty of fast stuff. You need to put pressure on him asap with multiple targets. Ethereals would work extremely well because they're unaffected by shooting. 30+ Warriors also cost an arm and a leg and make target selection easy. YOu're not giving him any chance to make mistakes.

2) Make use of terrain. That list is decent on planet bowling ball. Long range + a wood, or dogs inbetween, or a Stormbanner, or Howling Warpgale will ruin it quickly. Dogs or Ethereals can also do double duty diverting the knights and dogs can have vanguard. What will he shoot?

3) Magic defense. If he doesn't get off his spells on the critical turn, stuff will die.

4) Magic offense. Death on a fast wizard could be nifty. Can snipe WM or Engineers and still outfight them in combat. A Terrorgheist, while not magic, does essentially the same. Can of course be shot down just the same but them's the breaks. Try to get the Buffinarc with it or the GR or any fast character (perhaps one on a Slaanesh steed as support?)

5) Skaven can easily outgun and outnumber Empire. 2 WLC + Doomwheel + GR + Stormbanner, clog him up with numbers, easy win.

6)+ random thoughts: Play scenarios, attack his unwarded, underarmoured BSB...He cannot put himself so far back that it could take 2-3 turns more to reach him. The maximum is about 12". That translates into one turn, and means most of his stuff cannot shoot right away. If his GS win combat, their stubborn 10 re-rollable hardly matters (not that he has that, he "only" reaches Ld 9 to be precise).

If your wizard ended most things, Lore of Life shouldn't have been so bad, so not sure what really happened here.

Krokz
10-02-2013, 10:44
Double volleygun and waiting for enemy to close in is strong. I opened apart quite a few armies with IMO even stronger Empire list then that above. Dwarfs and Wood elves are nearly impossible to win due to longer reach of their gunline.
Dark Elves have a good chance with MSU army (dark riders fills core) and with unkillable hero.
VC is very luck dependent (if his cannon kills your Terrorgeist before your turn), but very doable. Etheral units to hold stuff while a strong hero, hiding in unit from shooting, wipes out the rest. Just make sure to have 3 vampires to get raises on lords unit up.

Kahadras
10-02-2013, 11:54
Lvl 4 Wizard w/ lore of life, dispel scroll
BSB w/ magic standard in 30 greatswords w/magic standard (+1 LD)
2 engineers

2 cannons
2 volley guns
1 mortor

30 greatswords
20 riflemen x2
10/12 inner circle knights

the new thing that gives +1 PD and +1 to hit in melee and creates storms



Are you sure this is correct as the list seems to go over 2000 points...

Wizard Lord + extra level and dispel scroll - 225
BSB + standard of dicipline - 100
x2 Engineers - 130

x2 20 Handgunners - 360
10 Inner Circle Knights - 250

30 Greatswords - 330
2 Cannon - 240
1 Mortar - 100

2 HBVG - 240
Hurricanum - 130

= 2105

That's not including the costs for any command groups he's taking. If he's running a FC with the Greatswords and Inner Circle Knights then that's another 60 odd points. It's also not including any equipment on the BSB (or the Engineers). I could be mistaken (can anybody else run the numbers) but it just looking at the list it seems a bit too much for 2K.

Kahadras

medevilmike
10-02-2013, 12:50
With WoC id say 4 units of vanguard dogs, 2x5 slaanesh mara cav and lvl 4 with the lore of fire. season to taste. run forward like a mad man and try to handle the machines asap. Hellcannon+flaming sword=5str with+1 to wound. I just like lore of fire.

Ogres lore of heavens...that is all. if he wants to sit on the board edge make him eat a comet every turn

Dark Aly
10-02-2013, 21:38
Heavens is also funny against gunlines- bring a comet down on their hill and giggle. Plus the sig spell helps. Etheral will work a treat. Invest your points in bodies and not toys and don't care about the shooting- even 2 helblasters don't scare 100 clanrats and the other unit of 100 clanrats/slaves cares even less.

VampireOrcElf
11-02-2013, 04:11
With WoC id say 4 units of vanguard dogs, 2x5 slaanesh mara cav and lvl 4 with the lore of fire. season to taste. run forward like a mad man and try to handle the machines asap. Hellcannon+flaming sword=5str with+1 to wound. I just like lore of fire.

Ogres lore of heavens...that is all. if he wants to sit on the board edge make him eat a comet every turn

How are you gonna take lore of fire? wizard hat on your level 4?:wtf:

Lord Solar Plexus
11-02-2013, 04:51
Just write the lore down in your army list...? :confused:

Kalandros
11-02-2013, 06:41
Just write the lore down in your army list...? :confused:
A Marked Sorcerer Lord or Daemon Prince has very few choice on the Lore.
Nurgle is Nurgle or Death, for example

Lance Tankmen
11-02-2013, 06:57
ya its too much for 2k, i did the numbers and got under 2k didnt see that it was 2x 20 handgunner and it went to 2.1k... no wonder you cant win hes playing a different point level ;) seriously though in our 1.5k group the empires winning most his fight, no magic though, but most of us run a level 2, so when the lizardmen player returns we'll see

VampireOrcElf
11-02-2013, 07:19
Just write the lore down in your army list...? :confused:

I was unaware that you could take said lore without a mark, my mistake

Lord Solar Plexus
11-02-2013, 07:33
A Marked Sorcerer Lord or Daemon Prince has very few choice on the Lore.
Nurgle is Nurgle or Death, for example

Some characters can also take steeds. ;)

BlackPawl
11-02-2013, 08:43
Take Lore of Death - if he depends on his Lev 4 mage / General then the signature spell from death can kill him in the first or second round - no general, no flesh to stone etc.
(even then: he can only give his units regeneration so long as the wizard (without any protection) stays in the unit. If you get anything in close combat he will be dead)


Skaven: either outgun him (plague catapult, poisoned wind mortar, WLC, warpfire thrower, heck, even jezzails to outrange his guns and kill his knights - with some gutter runner to kill his guns) or take the stormbanner and many slaves as missiles shields. He just has two combat units, you will have more (even if he shoots down 100 in two turns)

Undead: rise zombies or put etherals in his way - they don't care for his warmachines. And you should outmagic him with only one wizard in his list. Take a unit of bloodknights with the drakenhoff banner upgrade - a 4++ against shooting attacks should help them.

Ogres: as others have said use lore of heaven to put a comet in his zone or use death to snipe his mage. You can also take two guns, a catapult and good handgunners to counter him. Take the hellheart to disrupt one of his magic phases.

Woc: if you are desperate use the new general with mark of tzeentch and disc to kill his warmachines - he should survive some cannon shoots.
Take some small units of dogs before your troops as missile shields. And there is the new banner that will reduce the strenght of incoming missile fire. A volley gun with S3 is not really frightened anymore.
If you are in close combat you should win with your warriors (just save your dices to dispel FtS). He can only be stubborn on ld 9 (8 from his mage and 1 from the banner). If you have lore of death and D&D then cast it for a stubborn ld 6 unit ... ;-)


With a lev 4 and only one dispel scroll he can not dispel anything all the game.

Lord Solar Plexus
11-02-2013, 09:13
With a lev 4 and only one dispel scroll he can not dispel anything all the game.

You probably mean "everything". :)

cold0
11-02-2013, 10:50
For WoC, I suggest a Deamon Prince of Nurgle with Lore of Death and Charmed Shield (just to be sure to stop the first cannon ball on the way), a solid wall of trolls, chimera, and a second sorcerer with Lore of Nurgle can help, casting regeneration on your units.
Place the DP behind the trolls the first, and the chimera out of LOS. The first turn march, then the second charge flying the warmachines, then add the chimera to the machines hunting. Snipe the mage every magic phase that you have the possibilities. If you want to play the warriors, better take them with MoN and Festus with them plus a banner of swiftness to follow your more fast moving units.

And yes, the army seems over the 2k.

Zoolander
13-02-2013, 05:43
Are you sure this is correct as the list seems to go over 2000 points...

Wizard Lord + extra level and dispel scroll - 225
BSB + standard of dicipline - 100
x2 Engineers - 130

x2 20 Handgunners - 360
10 Inner Circle Knights - 250

30 Greatswords - 330
2 Cannon - 240
1 Mortar - 100

2 HBVG - 240
Hurricanum - 130

= 2105

That's not including the costs for any command groups he's taking. If he's running a FC with the Greatswords and Inner Circle Knights then that's another 60 odd points. It's also not including any equipment on the BSB (or the Engineers). I could be mistaken (can anybody else run the numbers) but it just looking at the list it seems a bit too much for 2K.

Kahadras

I'm positive it's correct. Couldn't tell you the totals. Maybe he can't add correctly? Either way, 100 points isn't really going to make or break a game most of the time. And it certainly did not in these games, it was a massacre.

Thanks for the responses, it seems you all had the same ideas I had. I know my Skaven and VC wouldn't have an issue, they have plenty of shooting and ethereal units. I was more concerned with Chaos.

The suggestion to take fast things is a thought I had initially as well, but it fails simply because he will kill everything before they reach him. My first game I had 3 warhound units and 2 marauder horsemen units and 1 unit of knights, not to mention the dragon ogres. All pretty fast. He demolished them without any issue between two turns of combat. The DOs actually made it with only one casualty and they took out two cannons and one handgunner unit but by then the game was over.

I hadn't thought of taking Heavens with OK or VC. That would be funny indeed.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-02-2013, 10:49
Those two HBVG's are especially brutal against WoC, and cannon are a staple. That can make a mess of even 1+ saves but having said that, I'd still check that you're using all the rules correctly. The Hurri for example only affects close combat, so no +1 to hit for missile attacks. More than half his force cannot shoot if he gets first turn. The Engineers need to decide which machine to serve before it is fired. If you use the BS 4, you must use the re-roll even if you're happy with the result (so 30 shots are next to impossible with an Engi; you'd need to get a fourth 10 on the re-roll. Vanguarded dogs should be able to reach warmachines pretty fast; I cannot imagine that he gets enough time to shoot everything down when it moves 12, 14" a turn. I mean some stuff can attempt charges on turn 2...and if you lose dogs and he loses Handgunners, that's a win for you.

As to being over, it's more like 200 points. Even the 105 Kahadras calculated is nearly the cost of a warmachine, or a unit of HG's, and I think that would already help immensely.

Danny76
13-02-2013, 12:15
Yeah. That ends up with FCs to be nearly two warmachines over.
You think you'd do a bit better with two of them missing? Yep.

VampireOrcElf
13-02-2013, 12:54
The Engineers need to decide which machine to serve before it is fired. If you use the BS 4, you must use the re-roll even if you're happy with the result (so 30 shots are next to impossible with an Engi; you'd need to get a fourth 10 on the re-roll.

Doesnt say anywhere in the army book or the FAQ that you have to use the re-roll, i know that that warmachine is the only one that can use it, but the armybook states that you CAN not MUST

BlackPawl
13-02-2013, 13:13
Maybe the empire player was thinking that they had said 2250 points and not 2000 ... :-)

Lord Solar Plexus
13-02-2013, 13:30
Doesnt say anywhere in the army book or the FAQ that you have to use the re-roll

It says it right there in the FAQ: If he confers MoB, he must confer the re-roll. Never mind if your interpretation differs.

SimaoSegunda
13-02-2013, 13:39
If he's giving regen to the greatswords, then that means he's putting the Wizard in that unit. So I'd recommend lining your unit up such that you have a killy character in B2B with the wizard when you charge, then slaughter him. Once the Wizard is dead, it will make your life a lot easier, plus since he'll be your enemy's general, and a reasonably costly character anyway, that should net you a fair few VPs.

Zoolander
13-02-2013, 19:14
Those two HBVG's are especially brutal against WoC, and cannon are a staple. That can make a mess of even 1+ saves but having said that, I'd still check that you're using all the rules correctly. The Hurri for example only affects close combat, so no +1 to hit for missile attacks. More than half his force cannot shoot if he gets first turn. The Engineers need to decide which machine to serve before it is fired. If you use the BS 4, you must use the re-roll even if you're happy with the result (so 30 shots are next to impossible with an Engi; you'd need to get a fourth 10 on the re-roll. Vanguarded dogs should be able to reach warmachines pretty fast; I cannot imagine that he gets enough time to shoot everything down when it moves 12, 14" a turn. I mean some stuff can attempt charges on turn 2...and if you lose dogs and he loses Handgunners, that's a win for you.

As to being over, it's more like 200 points. Even the 105 Kahadras calculated is nearly the cost of a warmachine, or a unit of HG's, and I think that would already help immensely.

Thanks Plexus. We followed all those rules. The only rule I'm questioning is what you said about 1/2 his force not being able to shoot. Why? Because of range? Everything he has is 24"+. The engineers aided the cannons the first turn then the volley guns the turns thereafter. And what I meant by game over is that even with 3 dogs, 3 DOs and some marauders, and my mage, he managed to kill everything else, so I surrendered. It's possible that I could have wracked up some more point with the general, but realistically, not that many, especially with 2 wounds on him. Well, I understand you're surprised, but that's exactly what two turns of shooting can do. Three, really. Turn 1, he shoots. I move forward. Turn 2, he shoots. I move forward and charge with what remains of my fast forces. Those units I charged stand and shoot. What started as 5 or 10 dogs is now 2-3. 6 knights is now 2. He wins combat, they usually flee. It's not complicated.

Zoolander
13-02-2013, 19:23
Yeah. That ends up with FCs to be nearly two warmachines over.
You think you'd do a bit better with two of them missing? Yep.

Guess I'll be checking his list to see if he's been naughty or nice...


Maybe the empire player was thinking that they had said 2250 points and not 2000 ... :-)

Haha maybe!


If he's giving regen to the greatswords, then that means he's putting the Wizard in that unit. So I'd recommend lining your unit up such that you have a killy character in B2B with the wizard when you charge, then slaughter him. Once the Wizard is dead, it will make your life a lot easier, plus since he'll be your enemy's general, and a reasonably costly character anyway, that should net you a fair few VPs.

Yes, I do that each game, but he challenges and then switches stats (lovely Empire magic item I loathe). He's a little harder to kill most times. I haven't killed him yet, anyway, despite repeated attempts.

That's interesting Plexus. I'll make sure to have him reroll his shots then. Thanks.

Kahadras
13-02-2013, 19:50
I'm positive it's correct. Couldn't tell you the totals. Maybe he can't add correctly? Either way, 100 points isn't really going to make or break a game most of the time. And it certainly did not in these games, it was a massacre

Well with my number crunching I'm factoring in the minimum amount of points he's spending on his army. When factoring in command groups and wargear you could be running at a deficit of 200 points plus. That's a couple of war machines or a large chunk of his Greatswords unit or his unit of Inner Circle Knights. A couple of hundred points doesn't sound a lot but it can quickly add up to a real disadvantage. I'd swap army lists at the end of the next game you play a double check things. Sometimes it can be an honest mistake (which is why I always calculate my lists more than once) if he's got a list he likes and hasn't checked the maths then things like that can be easily missed.

I've had plenty of times where people have spent too many points or haven't check their armies percentages properly.

Kahadras

naloth
13-02-2013, 19:51
The Engineers need to decide which machine to serve before it is fired. If you use the BS 4, you must use the re-roll even if you're happy with the result (so 30 shots are next to impossible with an Engi; you'd need to get a fourth 10 on the re-roll.

Being forced to use the re-roll is ridiculous. You do need to decide which machine to service before rolling, but you get to see the result of each roll and choose to use your one re-roll or not.

VampireOrcElf
14-02-2013, 02:27
Being forced to use the re-roll is ridiculous. You do need to decide which machine to service before rolling, but you get to see the result of each roll and choose to use your one re-roll or not.

Exactly, everyone is going to read it incorrectly, confer doesn't mean you have to do something, all it is saying is that if a machine uses his BS that machine is the only one that can use the re-roll, the question is asking wether you can us the BS on one then a Re-roll on another

Lord Solar Plexus
14-02-2013, 05:02
Thanks Plexus. We followed all those rules. The only rule I'm questioning is what you said about 1/2 his force not being able to shoot. Why? Because of range? Everything he has is 24"+.

You're most welcome. I actually expected that you followed the rules; I just thought I'd make sure. Sometimes things happen without bad intentions. Many scenarios require that the armies are both over 12" from the centre, so you're 24.000000something inches apart. Neither the handgunners nor the HBVG's could then shoot.



Well, I understand you're surprised, but that's exactly what two turns of shooting can do. Three, really. Turn 1, he shoots. I move forward. Turn 2, he shoots. I move forward and charge with what remains of my fast forces. Those units I charged stand and shoot. What started as 5 or 10 dogs is now 2-3. 6 knights is now 2. He wins combat, they usually flee. It's not complicated.

Well, let's look at those Handgunners for example: Turn 1 they're at long range (24+" apart, move 12 with say DO's, so 12+" apart), that's about 3 wounds for all 20. Turn 2, still long range and S&S, so hitting on 6's for another 1-2 wounds. You should have two DO's left, which stand a good chance to defeat the Handgunners in CC.

If he's shooting them at hounds, I wouldn't be worried, that's what they are there for. If he's shooting at DO's or Knights, the dogs in front should add another -2, and that's before terrain. Also/alternatively, the Knights still get an armour save (I know, call me Captain Obvious).

I realize that telling you how it should work isn't such a great help. I wish I could be more concrete, Zoolander but at this point in time, I haven't found a better solution. It definitively is a bad matchup. and that Empire list seems tailored to take out yours. In an all-comers environment, he would be losing most of his games. Warded Brets, Stormbanner Skaven, waves of Gobbos, far-reaching Dwarfs...