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View Full Version : "Open lists" -- when do *you* share?



Balerion
11-02-2013, 08:26
This came up unexpectedly during a thread in the rules forum.

I'm wondering when most people who play with open lists agree to exchange theirs with their opponent.

Please vote and discuss!

xxRavenxx
11-02-2013, 08:32
I thought 40k WAS just open lists? Its fantasy where you hide items till you screw someone over with them not 40k.... right?

I mean, I know what gun your guy has (Its WYSIWYG), and I can see inside your transports. Your psychic powers are rolled for in front of me so I can check what you got. What is there you can hide?

Azulthar
11-02-2013, 08:37
I thought 40k WAS just open lists? Its fantasy where you hide items till you screw someone over with them not 40k.... right?

I mean, I know what gun your guy has (Its WYSIWYG), and I can see inside your transports. Your psychic powers are rolled for in front of me so I can check what you got. What is there you can hide?
Well yeah, but these things only become apparent after deployment.

We usually share the basics of our lists right before deployment, though sometimes there are surprises ("Holy crap, you have another Greater Daemon in Reserve?").

Johnmclane
11-02-2013, 08:37
all open !
set up models before deployment and tell opponent how every unit works !

Radium
11-02-2013, 08:39
I always discuss lists before deployment. Playing a game where someone goes "SURPRISE! It's all drop pods today!" is not a lot of fun.

budman
11-02-2013, 08:44
I share lists before deployment the question is how far pre depolyment
in most cases with normal table group 24-48 hours pre deployment
in one case all the players in a torny posted lists 3 days before hand

A.T.
11-02-2013, 08:53
Pickup games while getting the models out (this unit is this, that unit has that, etc), as lists can often be quite last minute things.

Tournament lists are posted at the deadline, usually the week before the game.

Fagerlund
11-02-2013, 08:59
Usually right before deployment, sometimes we forget though and go through it after deployment.

cfoley
11-02-2013, 10:46
I have one friend who refuses to play with open lists. It creates an interesting and fun metagame where we try to outsneak each other. We're never sure if there are more units in reserve waiting to deep strike. It helps that we trust each other, of course!

Against others, I don't mind about sharing lists. I'll generally agree with whatever my opponent thinks is the right way to do things. People can have strong opinions about this kind of thing but for me, it's a small unimportant part of the game.

RandomThoughts
11-02-2013, 11:11
We used to play with hidden lists, including stuff in reserve and units inside of transports, the idea being that the enemy wouldn't know these things, so the enemy general (= player) doesn't need to know them either. At some point we stopped doing it, I think mostly because it created unfair advantages.

I'd like to add that different games handle these things differently, however. Infinity has hidden reserves, camoflaged models that are represented by counters and the only way for your opponent to find out what they are is get a model close and scan them. They also kept something that disappeared a long time ago from 40K: Hidden Infiltrators. In 40K terms, if you play an Imperial Assassin or a Lictor, you write down before the game where on the table they are hidden, during any of the games you reveal the note and place the model.

Now that I think about it, I actually miss the old hidden deployment... :)

The_Dragon_Rising
11-02-2013, 11:24
The rules state the things like deepstiking models have to be declared to be deepstriking at the start of the game so with WYSIWIG too how it possible to hide within the rules exactly?

MagicHat
11-02-2013, 12:04
Most of us share the list right before deployment.


I thought 40k WAS just open lists? Its fantasy where you hide items till you screw someone over with them not 40k.... right?

I mean, I know what gun your guy has (Its WYSIWYG), and I can see inside your transports. Your psychic powers are rolled for in front of me so I can check what you got. What is there you can hide?

Page 118 have a note on secrecy. As you say, everything is WYSIWYG and you declare which units reserve and so on.
I guess the only ones that benefits are people with small, obscure peices of wargear like auspex and mind shackle scarabs.

RandomThoughts
11-02-2013, 12:06
Fun fact, since my switch to warmachine, I tend to post my new lists on facebook, for all my friends to see. I'm not sure you can play more open than that. :D

ehlijen
11-02-2013, 12:19
We tend to openly share after deployment, where necessary (wysiwyg does most of the work).

IcedCrow
11-02-2013, 12:38
Closed lists are to me only in fantasy.

For 40k, I discuss every unit on my list and what they are equipped with as they sit on the side of the table before deployment. That way my opponent knows what to expect and there are no "surprises" that crop up in the game.

Fantasy is a whole different story. In fantasy I go over my units' special rules and what they are equipped with but hidden things like magic items and powers and hidden units do not get discussed.

Azulthar
11-02-2013, 13:01
Well, I don't mention most of the wargear until I use it, similar to magic items in Fantasy.

misterboff
11-02-2013, 13:11
I go through things as I'm getting them out/setting them up, and explain any wargear choices if my opponent doesn't know what they do.

ColShaw
11-02-2013, 13:18
I offer my opponent my list at the start of every game, and will answer any question about it at any time. I state which unit I'm deploying as I do so. This is actually kind of important when using my infantry horde, because it can be a little hard to tell (even for me!) where one unit begins and another ends (I use marks on the bases to identify each unit).

I've got nothing to hide.

Vomikron Noxis
11-02-2013, 13:48
Same for me really, I go through everything before I deploy, and also ask my opponent questions. My list is always available throughout the game too. Just gets things off on the right foot IMO.

Fingers
11-02-2013, 14:18
After/during deployment for any friendly games for me. In a tournament they have my list and are free to ask questions as I am deploying or afterward.

9/10 times I dont care about all the details in a unit. "Oh those are wyches? Cool, next."

Ssilmath
11-02-2013, 14:42
I offer my opponents my army list at the start of the game, and during deployment I tell them anything that WYSIWYG would not tell them. As an example, I make clear that my Sorcerer has a Force Axe, as the halberd/spear hybrid he has could be mistaken for a staff as well. Same goes for Gifts of Mutation that I've rolled up, and psychic powers.

Ace Rimmer
11-02-2013, 16:00
I don't tend to actually go through the list word for word, but I leave my list out so it can be read and tend to talk about what I'm using with my opponent before/during/after deployment.

Scribe of Khorne
11-02-2013, 16:19
Pre-Deploy.

Fithos
11-02-2013, 17:53
Normally we deploy our units and then go through each of them saying what they are and what they have and answering any questions about them. I guess we do it this way because then everything is set up so we have some visual recognition to go with the units. If someone asked to see my list before I game I would show them though. It wouldn't bother me, I just like being able to point at a unit and say this is this.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-02-2013, 21:35
I run through my list with my opponent before rolling for the mission. There's only one issue with disclosure of lists at this point and that's terrain.

We are still using alternating deployment for terrain so the placement of terrain is as list dependant as my opponent and I think it should be. We don't really discus the terrain set-up so it can create some funky looking boards if both players are looking for an "edge" from the terrain. I'm not sure there's any way around that though, other than using mutually agreeable terrain, which can cause problems of its own. I don't think early disclosure causes any other problems or provides any unfair advantages.

Unless I was playing in a narrative campaign I wouldn't like to play against a force with hidden reserves. If it was built into the campaign, with a way to mitigate some of it, I'd probably think it was a great idea.

Kaldor Draigo
11-02-2013, 22:30
I always have a list, but I can't remember the last time someone asked to see it. People just don't bother with that around here.

dblaz3r
11-02-2013, 22:49
I always have my list available to peruse if my opponent wishes. The group I've played with explains any non wysiwyg models pre game and we can clearly see what each person has prior to deployment anyway.

I wouldn't actually mind playing some games where I didn't know what the enemy had. I think it would be fun to not know what is about to jump out of that land raider/transport bearing down on my unit, assuming that transport isn't just empty.

Excessus
11-02-2013, 23:46
I don't see a point in playing with hidden lists. Can some people only win by using shenanigans?

If an opponent doesn't want to show me his list, I will suspect him of cheating, or at least hiding something, for the entire game...

KhornateLord
11-02-2013, 23:49
Hidden lists is a fun thing to do for a special scenario.
I wouldn't hide my list in a friendly, or a tournament.

Kaldor Draigo
12-02-2013, 00:57
I don't see a point in playing with hidden lists. Can some people only win by using shenanigans?

Some people enjoy the challenge of anticipating the composition of the enemy and attempting to counter it. Playing with an open hand isn't the only way to play.

Balerion
12-02-2013, 01:45
I don't see a point in playing with hidden lists. Can some people only win by using shenanigans?

If an opponent doesn't want to show me his list, I will suspect him of cheating, or at least hiding something, for the entire game...
This thread wasn't really about open versus closed lists, although some people seem to have only skimmed the OP and come away with that conclusion.

It's about when to reveal your lists to each other.

I see benefits to both, but the pre-deployment style takes some of the vibrancy out of different army builds. Like, what's the point of using something like Ymgarl Genestealers if your opponent is going to have pre-knowledge of their likely location (and even the ability to deny them/force them to deploy in certain areas, assuming you're using the official new terrain setup procedure).

budman
12-02-2013, 07:39
Fun fact, since my switch to warmachine, I tend to post my new lists on facebook, for all my friends to see. I'm not sure you can play more open than that. :D

that's the way, I want to go ever more open

MvS
12-02-2013, 09:49
Hidden lists until after deployment in games with friends, as we like the challenge and always play as part of a narrative anyway.

madden
12-02-2013, 12:09
Once the units are on the table so there's no chance of tailoring, as to special rules ymgals ect I always have my dex to hand and answer questions if asked.

Camman1984
12-02-2013, 13:22
I usually spend time discussing my listswith my friends that i play against, we even give each other tips. None of us are competitive to the point we try and keep secrets. Certain things are kept quiet just for entertainment value. Like the look on you opponents face when an enemy falls into a tesseract lol.

I do have one opponent that i always want to see his list though coa he cheats. Its a shame, but seeing the list and showing him mine fixes it straight away.

On a similar note, are you obliged to tell your opponent what is in each transport?

CrownAxe
12-02-2013, 15:17
On a similar note, are you obliged to tell your opponent what is in each transport?

yes you are

Stonerhino
12-02-2013, 20:42
I have no problem showing lists at any point of the game. Or even not showing them. In the end it really doesn't make a difference as long as they have a list.

MajorWesJanson
12-02-2013, 21:11
I usually hand it over while unpacking my army.

13713
12-02-2013, 21:16
I used to not give it until after deployment. Now I just hand it over with a small list of special rules and the page numbers said rules can be found on for my army.

Asensur
12-02-2013, 22:18
EDIT: Sorry, forgot I was not in Fantasy forum :P

We play with open lists from the start in 40K.