PDA

View Full Version : 2400 WoC (new book) Opinions?



naloth
11-02-2013, 13:43
This army isn't particularly themed. It's more or less just to try to build a somewhat competitive force using a nice selection of units in the new book:

365 (L) Lvl4 Sorc (Nurgle Lore), MoN, S4 Flame Breath, Enchanced Shield (total 2+ AS), 5+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Sword of Anti-Heroes

210 (H) Exhaulted BSB, MoN, Flail, Scaled Skin, Helm of Many Eyes, Dragonbane Gem, Trickster's Other Shard

334 (C) 17 Chaos Warriors w/Shield, Full Command, MoN, +1 Ld Banner

185 (H) Lvl 1 Sorc (Shadow Lore), MoS, Steed of Slanneesh, Familiar, 6 die channelling wand, Charmed Shield

110 (S) 5 Hellstriders w/Scourges and a Banner

195 (H) Throgg

245 (C) 7 Trolls

30 (C) 6 Hounds

125 (S) Warshrine

275 (S) Chimera w/Regen and Flaming Breath

318 (R) 4 Skullcrushers w/Banner and Lances

Total 2397.

The general will probably be the Lvl4 (for an effective Ld9), but it could be Throgg instead if I want to spread out Fortitude points for a mission like B&G. Generally, the stuff with low leadership (Trolls, warhounds, Chimera) should be able to use Throgg out to 18" even if he's not the general.

Lore of Nurgle seems to have a nice mix of augments, hexes, and attack spells so I thought I would give it a try. Also, the lore bonus would be a nice perk to go off. Since the casting values are relatively low, I should be able to 2-3 dice and keep miscasts to a minimum.

The Lvl1 has two spells and should channel on a 5+ for either power or dispel dice if I need it and nuking his Ld shouldn't be much of a problem. He's also in a fast cavalry unit that's absurdly fast and immune to psychology even if they are fragile. After the first hellstrider dies I have to worry about templates/randomized shots but the Charmed Shield and a 2+ AS should help and I plan to get him into CC with fragile (war machines and similar support units) stuff to mitigate the risk. Naturally another strider or two would have been nice but I don't see a good place to scrape another 40 points from and if they aren't fired upon much (and there's plenty of other fast targets with the Chimera, Trolls, Skullcrushers, and even the Hounds) it's not even necessary. Other than that, he's a support caster that will try to harass units and cast debuffs. I've looked at the Slanneesh spells and Shadow seems better though I do like Acquiescence, Hysterical Frenzy, and Cacophonic Choir. It's a shame that the lvl 0 spell (Lash) isn't better.

I went with the +1 Ld banner on the Warriors mostly to mitigate stupidity rolls. I like the ASF +1 AS helm, but with a Ld8 there's a pretty serious chance of failing. Making it Ld9 with a re-roll makes me feel better about it. I've considered re-tooling the BSB to go with the Jugger knights (MoK, Demonic Steed, Flail, Dragonhelm, Trickster's Shard). However, 5 monster bases makes that unit pretty wide and they don't really need the BSB support. It would distribute the point cost a bit better and he should get a LOS until 2 crushers are gone, though. Other than that, the Warriors are a durable infantry unit that will usually be hit on 5+ in CC or 6+ with some magic support. Naturally, I would have considered 2 CCWs or Halberd instead of Shields but all my actual Warriors are built out w/HW&S though I could potentially stack the first 10 w/some Chosen w/Halberds that I have and fill in the back ranks with regular warriors. If I go w/Halberds that's two less Chaos Warriors for a unit size of 15. Likewise w/o the stupid BSB I can go with either the Flaming or the +1M banner and chance it with Ld8.

I was looking at Chaos Knights (and potentially sticking one of the characters with them), but it seems like Skullcrushers are usually better unless getting hit with multi-wound attacks. These 4 Crushers are about the same as 7 MoK Lance Knights with a banner, but have the same AS, 12 wounds instead of 7, have less of a difficult terrain risk (4 models that only take 1 wound per failure), at the cost of giving up a few warrior attacks (-9 S4 or S6 lance) which are made up by the Juggers (12 WS5 S5 w/S6 on the charge plus 4 S5 stomps vs 7 WS3 S4 horse attacks). The Jugger unit charge kicks out a nice 24 WS5 S6 attacks plus stomps vs the Knights 21 WS5 S6 + 7 WS3 S4 attacks, which seems to favor the crushers. Also, while Lances may put the Knights at a disadvantage for not charging the WS5 S5 A3 Juggers are still pretty credible threats even if they don't get a charge and the riders lose frenzy.

I've pondered over the Warshrine, but it's seems pretty durable (4+ AS 4+ Ward), has decent attacks (4+d6 S4), and could end up buffing Throgg, my Lvl4, BSB, or Warrior Champ since they should be able to stay within 12". It also helps mitigate unnecessary spawnhood should I have to kill a character/champ with one of mine and end up rolling 1's. Besides, I have one and it looks rather nice.

I'm taking the Chimera because I have the model and I would like to try it out.

Bigman
11-02-2013, 17:35
You can't have the familiar and the skull of Katam.

They're both considered arcane items, even if one is still a gift.

naloth
11-02-2013, 17:58
You can't have the familiar and the skull of Katam.

They're both considered arcane items, even if one is still a gift.

Ah, I see that. I overlooked it since it's a separate allowance. Hmm, probably try to squeeze in a power stone instead.

Bigman
11-02-2013, 18:43
Maybe swap the scroll for the familiar. Familiar on lvl 4, scroll on lvl 1?

I've looked at taking skull on a lvl 1. Essentially you are still 8 1's away from death :-). Going into a tournament it would be a useful way to get power dice. Look for it to be included in ETC power dice restrictions soon enough.

naloth
11-02-2013, 18:55
I'm pondering... Without the 5+ to generate dice you're looking at about 1 die per phase and about -1 Ld per phase... It's an interesting proposition, but doesn't give you that much bang, it's not dependable, and you can kill yourself doing it.

Bigman
11-02-2013, 20:17
Maybe, but in games where you do et a lucky roll, you will get off that key spell. Being elite in nature it could be important. Also losing leadership isn't a problem if you aren't the general and are in a unit with higher leadership anyway.

It is a risk, but at 15 points, it's a calculated one.

naloth
11-02-2013, 20:38
Maybe, but in games where you do et a lucky roll, you will get off that key spell. Being elite in nature it could be important. Also losing leadership isn't a problem if you aren't the general and are in a unit with higher leadership anyway.

It is a risk, but at 15 points, it's a calculated one.

I suppose the bigger problem is there's not really a good place to put it since the Familiar is also an Arcane item. You're either giving up the scroll (currently on the Lvl4), the familiar (currently on the Lvl1), or the 6 die wand (and I favor both the 5+ channel/bonus spell and the dispel scroll over the 6 die channeling).

I'm warming up to putting the BSB in the with 'crushers. It creates two units that are closer to 600ish points rather than a 300ish and a 900ish point unit and they should work counter to enemy monsters, cavalry, and hordes at that value. I suppose I'll go look at load outs to see what I can get him and mount him for a similar cost (or for another 15 for the Arcane item I'm giving up).

So the new arrangement is:

230 Exalted BSB w/MoK, Juggernaut, Flail (S7 on first turn), Dragonhelm, Trickster's Shard.

170 Lvl 1 Sorc (Shadow) w/MoS, Steed of Slanneesh, Familiar, Charmed Shield.

Upon reflection, it doesn't look like he would get a "Look out Sir" since it's not 5 models and he's not in with a Lookout 'Nobler, so it's either another 'crusher, putting him elsewhere, moving over the Charmed Shield, putting on a decent ward, or something else to keep him from getting sniped the first turn.

Iron_Soul
11-02-2013, 23:14
I'm not sure if you're going to be getting much mileage out of Throgg in your games. He's somewhat expensive in your list since you don't have many units that will benefit from his leadership. If you really wanna run him, I think it would behoove you to include more monsters in your list. I hate to start making suggestions as I don't know what you own, and these changes would likely alter the list significantly.

naloth
12-02-2013, 04:01
Feel free to comment, mostly I was trying a mix of newish things to see how they work.

Offhand, I consider Throgg a strong choice. He stacks up well against other monsters like the Shaggoth, Chimera, and Slaughterbeast by himself for both cost and combat prowess. Add in that he's able to lead a unit, give leadership out to 18", and be an alternate tough general. He's good in most lists, though I could build around him better. I imagine it will be difficult keeping the warhounds and chimera within the general's range and Throgg has a big second bubble that helps my few items that aren't Ld8.

As for my collection, I have most choices covered should I have an interest in running it. I have plenty of marauders for a horde or two (though I think they are sub par this edition so I don't see using them much), a smallish unit of chosen (10 halberds), a horde of sword and shield warriors, a unit of forsaken (again, not sure if they are worth running), a dozen or so heroes with and without mounts (manticore, disk sorc, chaos sorcs, jugger hero, daemon mount hero, chaos steed hero, dragon), about ten warhounds, a few older chariots, 10ish hellstriders (one of which I can swap the rider for a hero or field my 40k slanneeshi lord on a steed), 15ish knights, plenty of ogres (a half dozen plus a whole OK army to pull from), a smallish unit of dragon ogres, trolls (10ish?), an older and a newer chimera (though the older one is small... looks like the size of a pegasus), a warshrine, a hellcannon, a giant, and 5ish skullcrushers (plus one or two if I use heroes as part of the unit). By local custom the weapon matches don't have to be 100% exact, though they prefer a majority. I could probably get away with using my 10ish halberds, for example, to build a sizable warrior/chosen halberd unit. Conservatively, probably 4-5 thousand points to choose from before I have to proxy or buy something so you don't need to be shy about suggesting something. As it is, I'm mostly experimenting before I try a more themed build.

My latest consideration is that with this build, the warshine will be too slow to keep up... M6 is nice until you consider that it can't march. Throgg, the juggers, and my lvl1 could easily be out of range on turn two and my infantry (M4) could also end up outpacing it since they will march 8" to it's 6" and charge an average of 11" when it can only close half that.

I've noticed I made a math error for the Lvl4 above and I wanted to move my BSB to MoK on a jugger... Rather than knock him the lord to a lvl3 and because I've decided that a warshrine is more suited to a slower WoC army. Here's the new line-up:

400 pts (Lord) General Lvl 4 w/MoN (using Nurgle's lore), Flame Breath, Enchanted Shield, 5+ Ward, Dispel Scroll, Sword of Anti-Heroes.

334 pts (Core) 17 Chaos Warriors w/Shields, MoN, Full Command, and +1 Move Banner (may be swapped with +1 Ld Banner)

235 pts (Hero) BSB w/MoK, Flail, Juggernaut, Luckstone, Dragonhelm, Trickster's Shard

385 pts (Rare) 5 Skullcrushers w/Lances

170 pts (Hero) Lvl 1 w/MoS (using Shadow), Steed of Slanneesh, Familiar, Charmed Shield

130 pts (Special) 6 Hellstriders w/Scourges and Banner

195 pts (Hero) Throgg

245 pts (Core) 7 Trolls

30 pts (Core) 6 Warhounds

275 pts (Special) Chimera w/Regeneration and Flame Breath

Total: 2399 pts

My BSB is shielded with a "Look out Sir" until a 'crusher dies which is 3 wounds on a T4 +1 AS model before having to defend with his 1+ AS (and 2+ vs flaming). In combat, he's pretty nasty bringing 5 WS7 S7 attacks himself at I6 and his jugger bringing another 3 WS3 S5 (S6 on the charge) attacks that force the re-roll of ward saves. For one point, I could have a GW instead of his Flail and always be S7 at the cost of striking last. Personally, I'm guessing that his attacks will do a number of most opponents in a single turn and his natural S5 will be sufficient for most infantry. With M7, I should also have some luck picking my targets.

My Lvl1 is shielded by 2 Hellstriders then his Charmed Shield and a 2+ AS. Naturally, he's not going to win any tough fights and although with his unit they can pick off fragile/cheap units, I imagine he'll be casting debuffs and hunting war machines. I've currently slated him for shadow (as all the spells are pretty good) but I could try out Slanneesh since 3 of the spells would work well for support. With the 12" advance move before the game and a 20" march the 1st turn, they can be across the field pretty fast and often within minimum shooting distance for many artillery pieces.

My Lvl4 w/Warriors is my only real block of troops but they should be pretty resilient. 3+/6++ parry and a -1 to hit in combat should help them survive while my Lvl4 sees what he can do with the Nurgle spells.

Throgg gives my army core Trolls and an 18" leadership bubble for my hounds and Chimera. He's also a pretty nasty fighter with a nasty breath attack too. For the point value, I don't think I could do much better than him and his trolls. M6 also puts them a short step behind my 'crusher unit for BSB support.

The hounds are chaff/screens that might eat a turn of firing by threatening a war machine. I'm not holding out a lot of hope these guys will accomplish much.

The Chimera seems like one of the better new units and I have the newer model ready to go. With flight, I can hopefully position to deal quite a bit of damage with its breath weapon. Other than that, it's got 6+d3 WS4 S6 attacks plus its d6 S6 thunderstomps and a pretty decent defense (T5, 5+ AS, Regeneration).

Iron_Soul
12-02-2013, 06:54
I agree the Chimaera is fantastic. A must-keep in the list. You make some good points about Throgg, but I still feel like he should be in a larger unit of Trolls. For his points, I feel that he doesn't compete with an Exalted Hero unless you're maximizing his leadership bubble.

naloth
12-02-2013, 15:47
I agree the Chimaera is fantastic. A must-keep in the list. You make some good points about Throgg, but I still feel like he should be in a larger unit of Trolls. For his points, I feel that he doesn't compete with an Exalted Hero unless you're maximizing his leadership bubble.

In this particular list it I'm not sure what I would pull to make a bigger unit for Throgg or what size would be better. At 4x2, it's already fairly wide and a good formation to engage many units that are 5-6 wide in a defensive formation. Adding a third rank or making it a 5th troll wide wouldn't necessarily add more attacks to those combats, so you're just buying insurance against casualties or extra rank bonus - both rather expensive for MI since their strength is in damage output. Naturally 7 trolls and Throgg aren't intended to assault hordes and I would have to be somewhat selective of my fights. Against most heavy cavalry, trolls aren't great. Against hvy cavalry Trolls would often end up absorbing the charge, striking last, and then relying on the vomit hit to do damage. Even a horde would struggle if the heavy cavalry was a Bret Lance (3 wide, limited striking back against lots of attacks) or had the flaming banner. Against elites formed wide it could go either way depending how well they are kitted out to fight trolls. Some matches are just bad for the trolls (white lions or swordsmen w/a flaming banner?) and making the troll unit wider or deeper just increases what you're going to loose.

Thogg is reasonably tough (WS5 T5 W4 4+ regeneration) to damage and will probably take damage better than an most Exulted Heroes unless you run up against someone with high S flaming attacks. Throgg's obligated to challenge but he should fair well against most opponents. 5 WS5 S8 attacks better than what most Exulted Heroes will be putting out and he can also add his one shot 2d6 S5 no armor save breath if necessary. Most of the time I would prefer to use Throgg's breath temple after a 12" march to cover a unit. It's a nasty surprise instead of charging and you can really coat a big deep block of troops or a line of cavalry/elite infantry. Since I've already got two other breath weapons (Lvl4 and Chimera), Throgg adds a relatively fast moving 3rd breath weapon that's even more damaging than the S4 flaming ones my other two units have.

Aside from that, the trolls would need to go if Throgg was removed since I would need more points in core and babysitting troll stupidity would probably require both my general (for a leadership bubble) and my BSB (stupidity re-rolls). Sure, I could replace the trolls with infantry or something else but they probably wouldn't attract as much artillery shooting so my chimera and skullcrushers would end up being focus fired more. Right now the flaming attacks will have to be divided between the chimera, trolls, and anything my lvl4 can bless with regeneration.

Throgg's 18" Ld bubble is also a very nice perk since my flying chimera or warhounds might end up taking a leadership check from a spell, CC, or simply panic. Testing on 8 is a lot better than trying to make a 5 especially if my BSB is in the area.

FWIW, depending on my opponent's army Throgg could run separate from the trolls as well and just keep them within 18". I worry about him being sniped against cannons, catapults, and certain spells but at under 200 points he's a capable fighter in his own right.