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Grndhog89
13-02-2013, 14:38
I started thinking about this thanks to a similar fantasy thread. Would you all say that the change in 40k from 5th to 6th was as big (or almost as big) as the change over in 40k from 2nd to 3rd edition?

I think while fantasy players have a more established pattern of edition paradigm shifts (4th being big change, 6th being big change, and 8th), 40k lacks this sort of pattern. The big changes I see are:

1st ed to 2nd ed (they were different from one another, right? Vets confirm please)
2nd to 3rd was the biggest change of them all. Invalidated every army book.
3rd to 5th were basically all the same. Very little major changes.
5th to 6th is probably close to the scale of the 2nd to 3rd changeover IMO. What with an FAQ required for everyone and totally changing some mechanics that had been solid from 1998-2012 (Ref: Assault range is always within 6", no official allies rules)


So, what are your thoughts on it?

A.T.
13-02-2013, 14:51
1st ed to 2nd ed (they were different from one another, right? Vets confirm please)The fundamental combat rules were quite similar to 2nd (save modifiers, etc) though a few stats vanished and things like vehicles/aerial combat/psychic powers changed significantly.

The big change between Rogue Trader and 2nd was the whole army list system - but it had been moving that way in incremental steps for a long time, there was very little difference between the 1st ed battle manual and the 2nd ed wargear book for instance.



5th to 6th is probably close to the scale of the 2nd to 3rd changeover IMO. What with an FAQ required for everyone and totally changing some mechanicsIt was a relatively minor change on many fronts, lots of tweaks and small changes but nothing which invalidated any codex. It's entirely possible to play using even the oldest of books without the 6th ed FAQ update and not hit too many snags.

Playing 3rd ed with a 2nd ed codex on the other hand was impossible.

Poseidal
13-02-2013, 14:52
1st to 2nd was almost a big of a change as 2nd to 3rd, though there was very much a 'work in progress' period between the two. Thematically, 2nd shares more with 3rd than (early) 1st does with 2nd. In 2nd ed, they had put a codex with all the existing armies in the rulebook, with dedicated codices coming later. The WD and compilation books from RT were incompatible with 2nd.

5th to 6th is nowhere near the 2nd -> 3rd change, and less than the 1st -> 2nd change, though closer to that.

Grimbad
13-02-2013, 15:43
I started thinking about this thanks to a similar fantasy thread. Would you all say that the change in 40k from 5th to 6th was as big (or almost as big) as the change over in 40k from 2nd to 3rd edition?

Not really.



1st ed to 2nd ed (they were different from one another, right? Vets confirm please)

Late Rogue Trader saw the Battle Manual, which made the game very similar to second edition. But yes, if you compare early RT to early 2e, it's a sharp difference.



5th to 6th is probably close to the scale of the 2nd to 3rd changeover IMO. What with an FAQ required for everyone and totally changing some mechanics that had been solid from 1998-2012 (Ref: Assault range is always within 6", no official allies rules)


As I said, it's really a pretty minor change. A lot of 2e concepts were reintroduced in very weak forms that didn't upset the game too much- just look at the 2e Overwatch versus the 6th edition one. The 6th edition psychic system is just a solitaire version of second edition's psychic phase. Challenges are doable in second edition without pages of rules because second edition's hand-to-hand system was based on individuals.

No stats added or dropped between 5th and 6th, except for psyker mastery and vehicle hull points. For comparison, between second and third, vehicles' side and rear armor was separated from one stat to two separate ones, but they dropped the hit locations, location damage tables, individual speeds, ram value, crew as individuals, and so on - a real, complete revision.

The magnitude of the changes is probably most visible in game length and army sizes. If you transfer an army from 3+ to 2nd edition, you see its points value roughly double (characters' values remain about the same). A standard, two-hours-ish game is still around 1500 points, but it's only 4 turns long and, again, uses half the models. This all reflects the fact that the 2nd edition game is a bit over twice as detailed.

Imagine that 7th edition comes out. The 6" move is entirely gone, with the movement phase replaced by a two-player card game that issues orders to units on both sides. Shooting is now an opposed roll of BS versus the new stat Craft, modified by cover. Assault is now altered by a huge number of situational modifiers, and character challenges use an entirely different system to unit combats, involving RPG-style actions. Vehicles and monstrous creatures are merged into one new unit type. Psychic powers are once again cut back to being mostly minor shooting attacks, using Mastery versus Initiative instead of BS vs. Craft. That would be a change comparable to 2nd-3rd.

ForgottenLore
13-02-2013, 16:20
When 6th came out I described it to a friend as major tweaks. They didn't really change the core rules much at all, but they extensively reworked a lot of the little details.

If 2nd -> 3rd was rebuildign the house from the framework, and 4th ->5th was simply putting on a new coat of paint, then 5th -> 6th was adding aluminum siding. It makes it look like a big upgrade, but really the core of the house is still exactly the same.

Sami
13-02-2013, 16:32
6th added a load of stuff (challenges, flyers, hull points) but didn't invalidate much other than the odd special rule and the like.

Dr Morbius
13-02-2013, 16:59
From 1st to 2nd a Lot of rules were dropped which nobody really used. Honestly who had games where a model made Int tests to understand how some tech worked and used it? Or who took their Jetbike to +40 flight level and accelerated until it flew at 120" per round.
Lots of these concepts provided you with a great framework for 'realistic' skirmishes. Especially if you had a scenario or even a gamemaster. But in a normal head-on game these never came to use and were therefore dropped.

Ironic side note: while many people today regard the 2nd edition as the best 40k that has ever been, I remember a Q&A during early 2nd were the developers were asked why the "kiddified" 40k with the new edition :D

KingNova3000
16-02-2013, 23:04
2nd to 3rd was a massive change. In more ways than just rules.

5th to 6th was nothing like that. I'm still using exactly the same lists I used in 5th. If the change was as dramatic for 5th to 6th, as 2nd was to 3rd, than there isn't a snow balls chance in hell that would be possible.