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Sqallum
14-02-2013, 20:57
O.K, so a couple of things

1) What happened to all the Loyalist Battle Barges? Macragge's Honour? The Red Tear? The Fist of Iron? The Invincible Reason? The Swordstorm?

2) In Void Stalker Mercutian mentions that the Loyalist ships sizes (e.g Strike Cruisers) are now smaller than they were during the Great Crusade/Heresy. Why is this?

3) ADB mentions Gloriana Class Battle Barges in a few of his books. How are these different to other Battle Barges?

Thank you.

Michael M.
15-02-2013, 03:40
O.K, so a couple of things

1) What happened to all the Loyalist Battle Barges? Macragge's Honour? The Red Tear? The Fist of Iron? The Invincible Reason? The Swordstorm?

2) In Void Stalker Mercutian mentions that the Loyalist ships sizes (e.g Strike Cruisers) are now smaller than they were during the Great Crusade/Heresy. Why is this?

3) ADB mentions Gloriana Class Battle Barges in a few of his books. How are these different to other Battle Barges?

Thank you.
1)Some had survived some not. I think most of them as the Red Tear and the Fist of Iron had been destroyed during Istvaan V and the Siege of Terra.

2)That has something to do with the aftermath of the HH and the Codex Astartes. Befor the HH the Legion ships had been mostla the same ships used by the Imperial Navy. After the HH the Legions had been split into the Chapters to prevent something like the HH again. One point was that the SM should only have ships, that fit in a special role: planetary assaults. Thick armour and weapons for orbital bombardment. Ship-to-ship combat was not of great priority. That´s the reason why new ship typs had been build: the now used strike cruiser and the battle barge. Cause of the sizedown of the old legions it was no longer nessecary to produce larger ships for the SM so the strike cruiser appeared much smaller then a pre-HH "strike cruiser".

3)From the description in Fear to Tread it´s more heavyly armoured, heavylier armed, can hold more troops, and has the most advances com and sensor technics then any other ship. But it´s a ship design from the dark age of technology. If any had survived then only with the first founding chapters.

m1acca1551
15-02-2013, 11:15
The technology could simply be lost to make these grand barges... after all when Horus gave Terra a good kicking you can bet you he left the entire solar system is a right mess, as for those that were already built after 10,000 years of war i'd say that many have been destroyed over the years.

As for ADB depiction of the new barges being smaller that is simply based on the astartes new role in the imperium after the Codex was rolled out, no longer are the SM the grinding machine they once were. They are designed for lightning strikes, quick offensive moves that utilise the greater speed and weaponry of the new barges. The imperial navy has the heavy class of ships, Emperor class battleships are the true monsters of the imperial fleet, whilst a battle barge is the superior fighter and battle ship is a brawler able to take horrendous damage in a line conflict.

The Imperial navy has taken over the mainstay of fleet work in the imperium allowing the astartes to be able to do there work in destroying the enemy quickly and effeciently.

Madmongo
15-02-2013, 12:16
What happened to the Traitor vanguard/high capital/flagship vessels?

I know of the Terminus Est, but what of the rest? Is there any fluff of serious fleet engagements listing vessels destroyed?

KingDeath
15-02-2013, 18:10
What happened to the Traitor vanguard/high capital/flagship vessels?

I know of the Terminus Est, but what of the rest? Is there any fluff of serious fleet engagements listing vessels destroyed?

Infidus Imperator and the Vengeful Spirit are both still active.

totgeboren
15-02-2013, 19:11
Remember that a 'Battle Barge' is any battleship that carries SM, and a 'strike cruiser' a cruiser that carry SM. For example, the Vengeful Spirit is a Despoiler class Battleship. That is, a CSM Battle Barge. The Devastation class cruiser is a popular 'CSM strike cruiser', though I know the WE had some Slaughter class 'strike cruisers' too and so on.

The 'Strike cruiser' and 'Battle barge' we find in the SM fleet list is simply the class of cruisers and battleships the SM are relegated to in 40k. If your group is fine with it, a CSM fleet should be able to include the more typical SM type ships too. But for the game to be interesting, the Navy, the SM and old style ship were split into three lists, go give the game some diversity. SM may in principle not have any other heavy ships than those two, though they have access to 'venerable' ships, which they can pick from either the chaos or navy lists.

carlisimo
15-02-2013, 19:32
2) In Void Stalker Mercutian mentions that the Loyalist ships sizes (e.g Strike Cruisers) are now smaller than they were during the Great Crusade/Heresy. Why is this?

Space Marines used to command battlefleets with the same ships that the Imperial Navy (and Chaos fleets) currently use. After the Heresy, they were barred from having ships of the line to limit the danger if another chapter turned on the Imperium. In the same way, the Imperial Navy was separated from the Imperial Army (now Imperial Guard) to make it less likely that a regiment and its transport ships would both rebel at the same time.

Space Marines were limited to purpose-built ships designed primarily for deployment, i.e. strike cruisers (I’m guessing they had to negotiate hard to keep their battle barges). So it’s not that their ships shrunk, they just shifted towards a different class of ships which happen to be roughly equivalent to light cruisers. The Imperial Navy accepted their use of strike cruisers because they weren’t that great a threat to their cruisers. If a chapter built a larger strike cruiser, they’d probably get a call from the Inquisition. As it is, the rest of the Imperium is very wary about the fact that Space Marines have escorts with lance weaponry (the Nova class frigate).

flota
16-02-2013, 02:31
the red tear was a HUGE ship, even for 40k standards, i would like to know too.
what happens with Russ flagship?

Sandlemad
16-02-2013, 13:26
Space Marines were limited to purpose-built ships designed primarily for deployment, i.e. strike cruisers (I’m guessing they had to negotiate hard to keep their battle barges). So it’s not that their ships shrunk, they just shifted towards a different class of ships which happen to be roughly equivalent to light cruisers. The Imperial Navy accepted their use of strike cruisers because they weren’t that great a threat to their cruisers. If a chapter built a larger strike cruiser, they’d probably get a call from the Inquisition. As it is, the rest of the Imperium is very wary about the fact that Space Marines have escorts with lance weaponry (the Nova class frigate).

Agreed but would this not be the other way round? Battle barges are heavily oriented around planetary assault and boarding actions, both of which are actions under the remit of the marines rather than the navy.
It's the more strike cruisers they probably had to negotiate to keep, with their wider range of uses for other forms of naval combat, which could be seen as stepping on the navy's to (even though they don't match up to 'true' navy cruisers).


what happens with Russ flagship?

Battle for the Fang mentions simply that it was lost ages ago, so somewhere between the heresy and M32, maybe in the Scouring. I'd say the same could be applied to most large ships of the original legions. Many would've gone to their successor chapters too.

khirsath
16-02-2013, 15:00
Chances are that most were lost during the Heresy or the Scouring. That was the era were both sides had these mega-ships and the fighting was fierce on a level the galaxy hasn't seen in thousands of years. The Ultras lost a lot of fleet hardware on Calth but seem to recover in numbers rather quickly, but they didn't recreate any relic ships. One has to keep in mind that the shipyards/forgeworlds that could repair these vessels were likely targets as well. Their destruction would mean that the ships couldn't be repaired from severe damage let alone any new hulls being constructed. The amount of tech and information lost by humanity in such a short time is mind boggling.

As a side topic: I thought the survival of the Red Tear from Signus Prime was unnecessary and a bit ridiculous given what it went through and it's shear size. But that's just one of many disappointments with Fear to Tread.

Stonerhino
16-02-2013, 20:55
In Betrayer the Conquer targeted serveral ships identified as "Battle Barges". Which suggest that it was a classification of ship predating the HH. Without going to the book I believe that the captain broke off from an easy kill, ram another ship just to target the barge. In an attempt to prevent it from launching its cargo onto Angron's homeworld.

So its highly likely that the IoM pre HH constructed a class of ship for the sole purpose of forcing its way through a heavily defended systems to launch planetary assults. Strike Cruisers are likely in the same situation. With Strike Cuisers being heavily armored light Cruisers designed to be "Small" Battle Barges to both escort the BBs or lauch smaller attacks. Then in the post HH IoM the Codex Astartes limited Space marine Chapters to this classes of ships. Taking away their ability to fight effective ship to ship actions.

carlisimo
20-02-2013, 07:11
Agreed but would this not be the other way round? Battle barges are heavily oriented around planetary assault and boarding actions, both of which are actions under the remit of the marines rather than the navy.
It's the more strike cruisers they probably had to negotiate to keep, with their wider range of uses for other forms of naval combat, which could be seen as stepping on the navy's to (even though they don't match up to 'true' navy cruisers).

Yeah, I could see that. I don't know the answer... I guess I just assumed Space Marines needed strike cruisers more than they need battle barges, since they tend to split their forces. Either way, their ships of either size don't match up well to Imperial Navy ships, but have Thunderhawks and bombardment cannons for planetary assaults.

Phunting
23-02-2013, 02:16
For example, the Vengeful Spirit is a Despoiler class Battleship. Not to be too pedantic, but according to BFG the Despoiler class dates from M36. The CCG image also looks nothing like a Despoiler.

Not that it would totally surprise if these were contradicted in a statement in a HH book somewhere though.

malika
23-02-2013, 10:01
Check the list we've been working on for ships of the Crusade/Heresy (including status): link (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=122)

Idaan
23-02-2013, 13:18
Check the list we've been working on for ships of the Crusade/Heresy (including status): link (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=122)

Where does Heart of Balethimor appear?

malika
23-02-2013, 15:10
I've asked it to the guys there. Thanks for reminding me, that way we can get the quality up to a good standard! :)

totgeboren
25-02-2013, 14:53
Not to be too pedantic, but according to BFG the Despoiler class dates from M36. The CCG image also looks nothing like a Despoiler.

Not that it would totally surprise if these were contradicted in a statement in a HH book somewhere though.

Times change I suppose. According to

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Vengeful_Spirit

It is now a "Gloriana-class battleship", but at first is was simply a Traitor Battle Barge. The picture in the above link shows a ship following the 'new' style of Imperial vessels.

A few years ago in the 2010 BFG compendium GW released rules for famous Traitor Legion Battle Barges.
The article Powers of Chaos (https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5Y mNjZjdjODQ1/edit?pli=1&docId=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYTE0ZjI1MGEtZTU1ZC00NGUzLTk3MTY tYjBiNTM4ZDJlNDk4) definitively depicts the Vengeful Spirit as a Despoiler class Battleship.

Under options, the piece of background text below is what I used as motivation for my earlier post, though now most Legion flagships seem to be of the elusive (and retconned) Gloriana-class, which has yet to receive official rules and such as far as I am concerned.

"Chaos Battlebarge Variants: While the Vengeful Spirit was representative of the battlebarges used by nearly all of the Space Marine Legions at the time of the Horus Heresy, a number of Primarchs, and even renowned Battle-Captains ordered subtle modifications to their ships under their command during extended stays in port between times at the speartip of the Great Crusade."

malika
25-02-2013, 19:44
40k wikia is generally quite a crappy source, try to avoid it if you're trying to make a point.

What official source states that the Vengeful Spirit is a Gloriana Class Battleship?

Also, note that the whole concept of a Battle Barge was never really an official class of ship, but more the function of a ship. This means that many different classes of ships could function as Battle Barges. ;)

totgeboren
26-02-2013, 06:10
40k wikia is generally quite a crappy source, try to avoid it if you're trying to make a point.

What official source states that the Vengeful Spirit is a Gloriana Class Battleship?

Also, note that the whole concept of a Battle Barge was never really an official class of ship, but more the function of a ship. This means that many different classes of ships could function as Battle Barges. ;)

Yeah, I was a bit surprised about the Gloriana classification. I can't remember reading that anywhere. Lexicanum says nothing as to its class, though it shows the same pic of what looks like a variant of the Retribution class Battleship, with other 'armoured prow'-type ships in the background.

The Powers of Chaos article defines the term 'Battle Barge' as;

"Among these vessels was a new kind of warship, one of unbelievably vast dimensions equipped with all the firepower of a battleship but capable of transporting and delivering vast numbers of men and materiel directly to the battlefield. This new type of ship served as the chariots that carried forth the Emperor and his Primarchs to conquer the galaxy. Designated a Battle Barge, no other ship type came to be as feared and respected as these, and just their arrival would often result in the quick surrender of a contested system."

And for rules we have this statement;

"Representing the Vengeful Spirit: The Vengeful Spirit is but one of a small number of Chaos battlebarges known to still haunt the stellar main. It uses the profile as shown above and counts as a Chaos battlebarge in all respects. A Chaos battlebarge may be represented by a Despoiler battleship using the profile and point cost shown above or modified by the special rules outlined at right."

So this opens up for there to have been a class of Battleship that was similar to the Despoiler class rule-wise which the Legions of old used, but that the Battlebarges were not Despoilers per se. So maybe these new Gloriana-class ships are closer to a Retribution class battleship, but with armaments similar to the Despoiler (which would essentially be an Emperor class Battleship with an armoured prow, less turrets but better speed).

Havarel
26-02-2013, 07:38
The Gloriana seems to be a new ship class introduced in the recent heresy books, the Invincible Reason for example (DA flagship) went from being referred as a battle barge in their novels to a Gloriana in prince of Crows. A few of the other flagships have been specifically called a Gloriana since.

Loginis
26-02-2013, 16:54
I read somewhere in this forum that the Chaos ships in BFG are actually mostly post-heresy, while some imperial battleship designs are even older than the Imperium. Maybe this Gloriana class is the later.
On a side note: could someone tell if it is true? It sounds logical, but I've never read it anywhere else.

Phunting
26-02-2013, 22:09
It does sound logical, but doesn't seem to be true as we have Heresy-era images of ships with both designs. BFG Armada states the opposite of this as well, saying that the armoured prow is an aspect of later ship design, with the Grand Cruisers straddling the line between the two. In the end, like much else, it seems pretty inconsistent, with no real reason for the difference other than the fact that GW wanted a distinct look for their Chaos and Imperial fleets, which just doesn't make sense if the Chaos ships are just meant to be renegade Imperial vessels.

You'd also think the fact that as every time a class was named something like 'carnage', 'slaughter' or 'hades' it ends up going traitor, whilst those with neutral names don't, would stop shipbuilders using these pejorative names quite so frequently. It didn't seem to...

Stonerhino
27-02-2013, 06:27
With that in mind I would not be surprized to find out that many of the Loyalist Battle Barges are in fact Oberon and or Emperor class battleships. This idea is supported by an article writen by Matt Keefe, Andy Chambers and Gav Thrope on veriant Space Marine fleets. Under "Venerable Battle Barges" it says (See thumb nails). Which is also supported by Leman Russ' flagship being identified by it's "Ploughshare shaped prow". Followed by the Space Wolves using the Emperor class battleship out of "Tradition" among other things.

Comparing the ships against a Ploughshare pic and the Emperor Class appears to fit the best. With the Oberon Class getting an honorable mention by vertue of being a veriant of the Emperor Class

Sqallum
27-02-2013, 19:07
With that in mind I would not be surprized to find out that many of the Loyalist Battle Barges are in fact Oberon and or Emperor class battleships. This idea is supported by an article writen by Matt Keefe, Andy Chambers and Gav Thrope on veriant Space Marine fleets. Under "Venerable Battle Barges" it says (See thumb nails). Which is also supported by Leman Russ' flagship being identified by it's "Ploughshare shaped prow". Followed by the Space Wolves using the Emperor class battleship out of "Tradition" among other things.

Comparing the ships against a Ploughshare pic and the Emperor Class appears to fit the best. With the Oberon Class getting an honorable mention by vertue of being a veriant of the Emperor Class

Thanks. So, that potentially means that some of the 1st Founding Chapters will have Capital Ship size vessels? It makes me feel betters, as most of the famous Chaos ones survived :)

carlisimo
27-02-2013, 19:16
Not that it would totally surprise if these were contradicted in a statement in a HH book somewhere though.

BFG fluff is a mess, even in the original rulebook and the one official supplement. The Overlord is said to be based on the Acheron, even though they’re shaped differently, have completely different broadside armament, and the Acheron’s description says only one ship of that class was ever made (as a test bed for “ancient, possibly alien” weaponry). The description for the Vengeance (in Armada) makes it clear that the exterior styling of Chaos ships is early Imperial and the armored prows came later – and yet the Apocalypse-class battleship (6+ prow armor) predates the Retribution, which itself dates from “the earliest days of the Imperium”. (The Emperor and Oberon-class battleships are also new-style, but don’t have extra prow armor so it isn’t necessarily contradictory if they pre-date the Imperium.)

Kiro
02-03-2013, 09:17
Check the list we've been working on for ships of the Crusade/Heresy (including status): link (http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=122)

To add to Idan's question, I should point out that the Photep, and the other Thousand Sons ships shouldn't be listed as 'presumably destroyed over Prospero' because Magnus sent the Thousand Sons fleet away before the Space Wolves arrived.

Surgency
03-03-2013, 06:29
Yeah, I could see that. I don't know the answer... I guess I just assumed Space Marines needed strike cruisers more than they need battle barges, since they tend to split their forces. Either way, their ships of either size don't match up well to Imperial Navy ships, but have Thunderhawks and bombardment cannons for planetary assaults.

I think they were freely given both, though I agree that the Nova class Strike Cruiser they had to pull some strings to keep. Its mainly due to the differing roles of both ships. The Battle Barge is a large ship capable of carrying multiple companies of Marines for planetary assault, something thats very handy to have for a force that relies on speed and shock insertions. The strike cruiser is smaller, faster, and more lightly armed, and has a smaller compliment of Marines, making it the perfect vessel for boarding actions, and a rapid reaction force, something that doesn't need multiple companies, but only a few squads, maybe a company at most.

While both are heavily armed for their weight classes, and both can easily handle a similar weight class Imperial Navy ship, the Space Marine fleets tend to run light as compared to a Navy fleet. So while the Space Marines may have a dozen ships, an equivalent Navy fleet may have three to four times as many ships, if not more.

Stonerhino
03-03-2013, 18:39
Thanks. So, that potentially means that some of the 1st Founding Chapters will have Capital Ship size vessels? It makes me feel betters, as most of the famous Chaos ones survived :)There is the issue of time in service and the effects on time in the Eye of Terror/warp. Its entirely plausable that the Loyal Battle Barges have seen 10-90 times the length of service. In Battle of the Fang for the Thousand Sons it was a few decades while the Space Wolves it was 1,000 years.

MajorWesJanson
04-03-2013, 02:13
Thanks. So, that potentially means that some of the 1st Founding Chapters will have Capital Ship size vessels? It makes me feel betters, as most of the famous Chaos ones survived :)

Ultramarines are not one of those chapters. They go through Battlebarges rather quickly, as they currently have only 3, which are named in Codex: SM, yet at least a dozen more are named in various sources, some specifically being mentioned as lost.

Sqallum
15-06-2013, 17:42
That's fine - the UMs get enough already, though I hope the Marrcrage's Honour survives to become the Octavius