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Kalandros
17-02-2013, 04:36
Welp, maybe I missed it but did anyone else see this posted about? o:
Here it is: http://onlyterriblethings.blogspot.ca/2013/02/crash-and-burn.html#!/2013/02/crash-and-burn.html


GW players if you want to trade in your armies for store credit for Warmachine we have an opportunity for you. Please email...

Pretty big action against GW.

Striking Distance
17-02-2013, 05:04
*bane voice* Let the games begin...

WOOOOOOOO I like it, let's hope this baby rolls into something big.

f2k
17-02-2013, 06:54
Interesting...

I do wonder, however, why it's happening now. The writing has been on the wall for years now with increasing numbers of online-only models. Indeed, Games Workshop has a rather long history of strained relationships with indy-stores.

Sadly, unless this is backed up by far more stores, I doubt it will mean much in the long run.

lbecks
17-02-2013, 07:09
Interesting development in the GW vs. US retailers saga. I wonder how much these stores bring in for GW compared to the big US internet retailers like miniature market and warstore.

Sotek
17-02-2013, 08:13
Pity warmachine sucks =(
But an interesting idea. The real question is how much they will give you for it and how much they expect to sell it for. It's a bit hypocritical to buy your GW stuff for low prices + discount and then sell it.

Sotek
17-02-2013, 08:14
Pity warmachine sucks =(
But an interesting idea. The real question is how much they will give you for it and how much they expect to sell it for. It's a bit hypocritical to buy your GW stuff for low prices + discount and then sell it.

shelfunit.
17-02-2013, 08:27
Pity warmachine sucks =(

Opinions vary.


But an interesting idea. The real question is how much they will give you for it and how much they expect to sell it for. It's a bit hypocritical to buy your GW stuff for low prices + discount and then sell it.

One of the stores in the link says 40% off a starter set/rulebook for either Warmachine or Hordes. I expect they will bin the books they take in from this.

BigRob
17-02-2013, 08:27
So I opened this thread full of excitement for something big, maybe a bunch of retailers had got together to challenge the new trade conditions regarding postage abroad and so on.

So kind of disappointed to find a childish "You cant use the bookz in our storez" letter. Who cares if the new flyer book isn't allowed in store games in your hobby stores, alot of places won't allow forgeworld and people don't care, most people will use it anyway or go to another store/club/play at home. These store chains must be quite big, maybe 30+ brick and mortar stores? If not, GW will probably just laugh at it, plenty more Indies to flog stuff too.

As for the "trade in your army"....yeah right, So If I bring in £500 of warhammer your going to let me trade that for an equivilent amount of Warmachine...I think not.

Hendarion
17-02-2013, 08:29
Oh, the shop retailers feel hurt. Well, they don't need to sell GW-stuff at all if they don't want to. Easy as that.

Scammel
17-02-2013, 08:37
So kind of disappointed to find a childish "You cant use the bookz in our storez" letter. Who cares if the new flyer book isn't allowed in store games in your hobby stores, alot of places won't allow forgeworld and people don't care, most people will use it anyway or go to another store/club/play at home. These store chains must be quite big, maybe 30+ brick and mortar stores? If not, GW will probably just laugh at it, plenty more Indies to flog stuff too.

As for the "trade in your army"....yeah right, So If I bring in £500 of warhammer your going to let me trade that for an equivilent amount of Warmachine...I think not.

I was reluctant to say this in case there was some obvious logic that I must have missed, but no - it really is a rather silly/strange/dumb policy. If you've lost interest in supporting GW, why are you trying to get your mitts on loads of models without the intent to sell (or at least, the intent to put much effort into selling them). I really don't see how this does anything other than damage the chain.

f2k
17-02-2013, 08:49
So I opened this thread full of excitement for something big, maybe a bunch of retailers had got together to challenge the new trade conditions regarding postage abroad and so on.

So kind of disappointed to find a childish "You cant use the bookz in our storez" letter. Who cares if the new flyer book isn't allowed in store games in your hobby stores, alot of places won't allow forgeworld and people don't care, most people will use it anyway or go to another store/club/play at home. These store chains must be quite big, maybe 30+ brick and mortar stores? If not, GW will probably just laugh at it, plenty more Indies to flog stuff too.

As for the "trade in your army"....yeah right, So If I bring in £500 of warhammer your going to let me trade that for an equivilent amount of Warmachine...I think not.

Well, I sold off a lot of my GW stuff for a lot less around the time of 4. ed. 40K. Being able to swap it for WarMachine or Infinity would have been sweet and would, most likely, have lured me away from Games Workshop far sooner.

Besides, there’s a vast difference from disallowing Forgeworld books (never a part of the official 40K line-up) and disallowing official books from Games Workshop.

In any case, that’s all beside the point. The damage that might occur here is that these indy-stores will now actively start steering players away from Games Workshop and into the waiting arms of their competition. When your own retailers start doing that, it should be a wakeup call that something is very wrong indeed.


Oh, the shop retailers feel hurt. Well, they don't need to sell GW-stuff at all if they don't want to. Easy as that.

Yes, they can.

The long-term problem is, as I said above, that they will now actively work against Games Workshop. And with stagnating sales and a growing opposition on the internet, that’s just about the last thing they need right now.

Killgore
17-02-2013, 09:38
Can't some stores order direct only products if they have the right trade terms?

jack da greenskin
17-02-2013, 10:30
One of the stores in the link says 40% off a starter set/rulebook for either Warmachine or Hordes. I expect they will bin the books they take in from this.

I'd ebay them and I assume the stores are doing the same. I take it this is also what they're doing with the armies.

Vazalaar
17-02-2013, 10:43
In any case, that’s all beside the point. The damage that might occur here is that these indy-stores will now actively start steering players away from Games Workshop and into the waiting arms of their competition. When your own retailers start doing that, it should be a wakeup call that something is very wrong indeed.

Yes, that will be succesful;)
What's the typical thing I child does when someone say it's bad, they do it.;)

Imo the only bad thing about GW is the prices.

f2k
17-02-2013, 11:14
Yes, that will be succesful;)
What's the typical thing I child does when someone say it's bad, they do it.;)

Imo the only bad thing about GW is the prices.

You forget that Games Workshop isn’t doing any groundwork themselves outside of their own retail chain.

In many places (that is: just about any place other than the UK mainland) the indy-stores and clubs are, de facto, the only advertisement that Games Workshop is ever going to get. With many players (and thus clubs) turning to other gaming and the store relegating Games Workshop to a dusty corner, 40K and Fantasy might quickly disappear.

Indeed, this has been happening over the last decade or so, with Games Workshop products slowly loosing shelve-space and sales to other games like Flames of War, Infinity, Mantic, WarMachine/Hordes, etc.

Point is, if the stores won’t even direct customers towards 40K/Fantasy, then Games Workshop risks losing out on a lot of sales as the local customer-base first shrinks, and then suddenly disappears as it dips under the critical mass.

Still though, losing a few customers in a small area won’t matter much. So, as I said earlier, unless other stores pick this up as well this probably won’t matter much.


As for what’s bad about Games Workshop, I would add seriously bad rules, blatant greed, badly designed models and fluff that’s getting increasingly juvenile. But each to his own, of course.

paddyalexander
17-02-2013, 11:45
Imo the only bad thing about GW is the prices.

How about how they treat their their customers poorly with:

>The international trade embargo.
>Insane exchange rates between countries/currencies.
>Banning non-EU based online stores from using a shopping cart.
>Poor Quality Books that fall apart.
>Terribly writen, imbalanced rules.
>Making the changes to the background so that Greyknights, Necrons & pretty much all of the Space Marines are now a parody of their formor selves.
>Finecast.
>Annual across the range price rises on top of rises with every new releases and re-packaging so less models for more money.
>Threathing leagal action against fan sites for using generic hederic imagery like Aquilas, greek letters or even skulls.
>The banning of "veterens" from gwPLC Hobby Centers
>The removel of all Hobby and gaming activities from gwPLC Hobby Centers
>White Dwarf
>Previously free or WD content being put on sale in the iStore.

Thats only off the top of my head. Yeah ignoring all of that GW are a great company that put out a wonderfull product and would never do anything bad towards their customers/community.

Baragash
17-02-2013, 11:57
Oh, the shop retailers feel hurt. Well, they don't need to sell GW-stuff at all if they don't want to. Easy as that.

Sure, but it makes more sense to encourage existing customers across to other products you want to keep stocking then to just cut ties.

Herzlos
17-02-2013, 12:14
What's the issue with the new book? That it contains rules for stuff thats direct-only?

I can see why retailers aren't happy about direct only, as they are doing most of the work; introducing customers, holding the events, then GW is restricting things so that the customers have to cut out the retailers to get stuff.

The trade is in a good move as well; We've heard many people say the main reason they won't move to Warma/hordes is because they've invested too much in GW already, so if they can turn that investment into WH/H stuff they might be tempted especially if they are already on the line about changing systems.

Sure the companies will be able to sell most of it on at a profit, but the main point is that they'd be encouraging customers to get out of GW. And they'd also be able to keep GW out of the loop to an extent by steering GW customers towards the traded in stuff.

If a local store offered me trade in (say 10-20% RRP) for my GW stuff I'd jump at it. That'd let me get starters and rules for Saga, FoW and Warmachine and I'd never need to look back.

Scammel
17-02-2013, 12:16
What's the issue with the new book? That it contains rules for stuff thats direct-only?


The book itself is direct-only. The rules it contains are for popular, expensive models that I would have thought indies would like to be selling lots of.

Herzlos
17-02-2013, 12:19
Ah, thanks, and the book is a requirement if you want to field anything within it unless you happen to have the June 2012 WD booklet?

f2k
17-02-2013, 12:37
Ah, thanks, and the book is a requirement if you want to field anything within it unless you happen to have the June 2012 WD booklet?

You need it if you want to field flyers - period. Just checked out the February FAQ for Orks and it contains the paragraph:


White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer
can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.

So the old White Dwarf rules aren't even official anymore...

DEADMARSH
17-02-2013, 12:40
Is it just me or does this all appear to be at worst, fabricated, or at best, retracted?

The link to Black Diamond games doesn't lead anywhere anymore (likely deleted by the author) and I can find no mention of any trade-in offer from Gnome Games on their site.

An interesting idea, but doesn't actually seem to be happening.

ehlijen
17-02-2013, 12:43
The book itself is direct-only. The rules it contains are for popular, expensive models that I would have thought indies would like to be selling lots of.

Exactly. My thoughts is that some store owners are using this as an excuse to let personal bias dictate their operations. Which they are free to do of, course, but I'm free to dislike them for it if I think they're being dishonest. Which I am. This book is clearly meant as small run that GW doesn't think it will sell lot's of. They didn't even make german, spanish or french versions. If these stores ordered significant numbers of it and got them, they'd likely end up sitting on them.


Ah, thanks, and the book is a requirement if you want to field anything within it unless you happen to have the June 2012 WD booklet?

It contains rules for the lost flyer wave that was never added to any codex, and thus can't be found anywhere else at the moment, yes. The remainder of the rules are for existing units in codices, though, so it will be unlikely that those are changed from the codex beyond what the free faqs state.

Lothlanathorian
17-02-2013, 13:02
Can't some stores order direct only products if they have the right trade terms?

The one I frequent does.

stahly
17-02-2013, 13:05
I welcome the initiative, I think it's clear that the flyers bookis a testing ground for GW to find out how they can cut out third party retailers (and the discounts they often provide). It's the same as with all those recent Black Library novellas that are only available on GW.com or the Black Library website, so you can't get them a couple of Euros/Dollars/pounds cheaper from Amazon.

xxRavenxx
17-02-2013, 14:13
You do realise by this statement you are saying that you want all non-GW shop to not sell GW product, right?

I think he means he welcomes the initiative of the store who is refusing to allow the book to be used.

Caiphas Cain
17-02-2013, 14:14
I think he means he welcomes the initiative of the store who is refusing to allow the book to be used.

I read it that way too.

stahly
17-02-2013, 14:17
Indeed. Sorry for the confusion, English is not my first language.

shelfunit.
17-02-2013, 14:22
Indeed. Sorry for the confusion, English is not my first language.

Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding - I'll edit my previous post.

EDIT: I'll just delete the other post, much easier.

xxRavenxx
17-02-2013, 15:10
Exactly. My thoughts is that some store owners are using this as an excuse to let personal bias dictate their operations. Which they are free to do of, course, but I'm free to dislike them for it if I think they're being dishonest.

I agree. While a small stance on the book is fine, (I'm not best pleased myself) they are clearly using it to try and get people onto playing Warmachine. Their promotion is "scrap the GW rulebook, and we'll do you a PP rulebook at cost, to get you into buying a new minis line". Its cunning (if not blunt) but doesn't show me anything except a sales scheme.


So. Moving on: I dislike the book. It looks to me like its a pdf style supplement someone had the idea of slapping into a hardback and throwing a pricetag on. It looks like the backlash of the WD only content, but appropriated the wrong way. I somewhat hope it doesn't do well, and that GW learn their lesson on doing these kind of direct sales books in the future.

AGC
17-02-2013, 15:40
You need it if you want to field flyers - period.
<...>
So the old White Dwarf rules aren't even official anymore...

I've just had a read of the Death form the Skies thread in 40K news and runours, this whole release is beginning to sound a bit of a mess:

They're (GW) releasing updated rules for flyers in an english only, direct-order compendium which because it was created after the codexes and main rule book isn't mentioned in any of the codexes or main rule book. I don't understand what the thinking behind this is. Are these rules regarded by Games Workshop as necessary to play the game or not? If they are, why not release them in all languages at all points of sale? If they are not, then why do it at all? Why not just put it in the FAQs or as a free download? What is someone who is just starting expected to do? Pick up a codex and Big Rule Book from their local shop and then learn from the sales assistant they have to go online and buy Death from the Skies before they can start planning their army?

Back on topic:-
I think the independent retailer in question must have already been past tipping point with GW to do what they're doing, I think it would be an over-reaction if it really was just because of Death from the skies. Will be interesting to see how many other stores follow suit.

agustin
17-02-2013, 16:12
My local store left GW behind a few years ago and things have never been better for them. Margins are better as they were able to negotiate a few percent better discounts with their distributors with the purchasing power that used to go to GW, sales have been up and they added more staff, and they managed to keep all of the regulars who used to spend $100+ a month on GW and transition them over to WM/H, Infinity and Flames of War. It feels like it's the 90s again when we were all starting new projects for GW games all the time, but instead of it being 40k, WFB, Warmaster, Bloodbowl, etc., it's a variety of non-GW games.

Lars Porsenna
17-02-2013, 16:14
Back on topic:-
I think the independent retailer in question must have already been past tipping point with GW to do what they're doing, I think it would be an over-reaction if it really was just because of Death from the skies. Will be interesting to see how many other stores follow suit.

I really have to agree. Why get upset over a $33 book you cannot carry in the store, when it will drive sales of an $82.50 kit your store CAN carry? I'm starting to suspect this is both an excuse to carry out a plan, and a shrewd marketing scheme. Get people disaffected at GW, make yourself look aggrieved, get the fence-sitters incensed enough to switch to Warmachine, and look, new customers!

Damon.

Vazalaar
17-02-2013, 16:19
How about how they treat their their customers poorly with:

>The international trade embargo.
>Insane exchange rates between countries/currencies.
>Banning non-EU based online stores from using a shopping cart.
>Poor Quality Books that fall apart.
>Terribly writen, imbalanced rules.
>Making the changes to the background so that Greyknights, Necrons & pretty much all of the Space Marines are now a parody of their formor selves.
>Finecast.
>Annual across the range price rises on top of rises with every new releases and re-packaging so less models for more money.
>Threathing leagal action against fan sites for using generic hederic imagery like Aquilas, greek letters or even skulls.
>The banning of "veterens" from gwPLC Hobby Centers
>The removel of all Hobby and gaming activities from gwPLC Hobby Centers
>White Dwarf
>Previously free or WD content being put on sale in the iStore.

Thats only off the top of my head. Yeah ignoring all of that GW are a great company that put out a wonderfull product and would never do anything bad towards their customers/community.

If you think they treat you poorly, quite the hobby and start playing another game.

The international trade embargo, to be honest I don't care about that. GW is a company and if they their business is better with those trade changes. It's GW's decision.

About EU based online stores, selling to only EU-based countries, again I have no problem with it. It's a shame some none EU countries have to pay more, maybe the wages are higher etc... I am sure that some things are much expensiver here in Europa then i.e Australia.

Poor quality books that fall apart? I've bought every hard cover Wfb book and the hard cover CSM book. Those books are still in a very good shape. Imo the books are of a good quality, only a bit expensive.

The rules are fine. WFB 8th Edition have given me countless hours of fun. For fantasy "imo" no other rules come close, don't start about KoW rules as imo those rules aren't better, I find those rules quite bland.

About finecast I have mixed feelings, I haven't had a bad cast yet and I really dislike metal mini's for gaming purposes. But finecast is just not good enough and to expensive.

About their annual price rises and the new habbit to increase the price with every new release is indeed ridiculous.

The legal actions they undertake. I don't care, if they think they need to do it to protect their business, I have no problem with it.

The GW hobby centers cost GW lots of money, so I fully understand that they only want introduction games and a steady flow of newcomers. For the so called vets, I can't understand why in heavens name you would like to play in noisy, small, warm shop. With customers breathing in your neck... bah.
A good game experience is with friends at someones house in a relaxed atmosphere. We are mostly with 3-4 players and play 1 - 2 times a month. When you work, have a family, have other hobbies you just don't have more free time for the little boy toys hobby.

The question should be, why would you want to play in a GW hobby store, to me it seems torture.

About White Dwarf, I don't understand the fuss about it, some issues are great and some are not. With internet - Forums/paintings logs, you really don't need WD.

GW is a company as another company, I don't need to have a good relation with them. Their main goal is to sell stuff and I as a customer have the freedom to buy it or not. I don't have to be friends with them, they don't need to give me a warm fuzzy feeling.
If they offer a product I don't like, I don't buy it, this is the same for other companies.

So far GW releases were very good imo. Only with CSM and WoC I have mixed feelings. I am very curious how the Deamon and HE releases will turn out.

Imo:

For fantasy mini's that are needed to play a game at the scale of Warhammer GW still makes the best mini's, AoW comes close, but it releases are to random.
Mantic mini's are god awful, uncomplete lines, the hybrid models are pain to assemble and also slow and random releases. I can understand the 'hatred' about finecast, but Mantic restic certainly has it issues to.

RBG are fantastic models, great sculpts with a fantastic 'atmosphere' but aren't suited for games as warhammer.

I have said it before, but the future for my painting fun lies in historicals. It's fantastic.
But I am pretty sure that until the day I die, I will play 1-2 times a month a game of warhammer.;)

Hicks
17-02-2013, 16:19
I like the idea. It's pretty impressive too what a bit of pushing can do for a game. If they give more table space, run demo games and let the GW-only players get accustomed to PP's miniatures aesthetics, allow people to get that swap discount and stop promoting GW, I can see this whole scheme working. Also, PP really is pretty much the complete opposite from GW regarding indy stores, they don't even sell their miniatures on their website.

I for one sure would be trilled if the local store did the same. I have a crap load of GW minis I'd happily swap out for more PP stuff, even at a loss. My gaming group has turned away from gW a while ago and from experience, if their is one company I'd go to to convert customers, it's definitely PP.

f2k
17-02-2013, 16:26
I really have to agree. Why get upset over a $33 book you cannot carry in the store, when it will drive sales of an $82.50 kit your store CAN carry? I'm starting to suspect this is both an excuse to carry out a plan, and a shrewd marketing scheme. Get people disaffected at GW, make yourself look aggrieved, get the fence-sitters incensed enough to switch to Warmachine, and look, new customers!

Damon.

Because I'm not paying S&H from the UK just to get a book so I can use a single model. So I won't buy the book from Games Workshop, nor will I buy the model from my local store. So the store effectively losses two sales.

But that, I suspect, is actually not the whole story. Rather, I would suggest that this is indeed an attempt to see how people react to online-only essentials.

Consider this:

I can live without the online-only models as none of them are must-haves. However, I cannot live without the rules so I have to buy those directly from Games Workshop. And since Iím already on their shop, I might as well just buy the flyer and whatever else I might need there as well.
So, in effect, what Games Workshop is trying to do is to move all sales to their on-line shop by removing required materials (a rulebook this time, an overpowered must-have unit next...) from the stores. And so, slowly but surely, Games Workshop can get rid of those pesky indy-stores with their customer relations, discount schemes, and (Shock! Horror!) their WarMachine, Infinity, etc...

That, I might imagine, is the fear that some stores now how.

DeathGlam
17-02-2013, 16:37
I can see why the stores are doing this, make more money whilst spinning it as some sort of freedom fighting against the so called Evil GW, similar to another incident recently.

That being said i did have a serious look at PP a couple of months ago, they have some nice models, so i support them doing better even if i don't start it myself at the moment as it seems like it is heavily aimed at the competative scene then anything else, which really does not appeal to me.

shelfunit.
17-02-2013, 16:40
Because I'm not paying S&H from the UK just to get a book so I can use a single model.

Are we sure that you pay shipping from the UK? I understand that the book is availible only in English, not only from England. Is that right?

Baragash
17-02-2013, 16:46
Are we sure that you pay shipping from the UK? I understand that the book is available only in English, not only from England. Is that right?

It's GW Direct only so it's England + wherever else they distribute from.

The reason the link to BDG doesn't work any more is they reversed some of the decision after joining the discussion on Dakka.

f2k
17-02-2013, 16:48
Are we sure that you pay shipping from the UK? I understand that the book is availible only in English, not only from England. Is that right?

From the description on their own webpage (emphasis mine):


Death from the Skies brings the white-knuckle intensity of aerial combat in the 41st Millennium to your tabletop, featuring selected material from White Dwarf magazine, the Crusade of Fire supplement and exclusive new content. Exclusively available from games-workshop.com, this 72-page, full colour softback compendium book is crammed with background information, gaming ideas and hobby inspiration to help you bring the battle for air superiority to life.

So my local store won’t be able to get it, thus I’ll have to pay for shipping.


As an aside, 200 DKr for 72 pages softback book? Forget it – I wouldn’t buy it even if my local store could get it. Talk about getting ripped off...

Hicks
17-02-2013, 17:02
it is heavily aimed at the competative scene then anything else, which really does not appeal to me.

It's a game that is really great at a casual level too. Try to see it as a game heavily aimed at the people who don't like their old army getting consistently destroyed by the latest ubber codex instead. You can play casual with a balanced rule system, but you can't play competitive with an unbalanced rule system.

Sure everything is not 100% perfect in warmahordes, but it's damned near perfect compared GW.

Lars Porsenna
17-02-2013, 17:18
Because I'm not paying S&H from the UK just to get a book so I can use a single model. So I won't buy the book from Games Workshop, nor will I buy the model from my local store. So the store effectively losses two sales.


This isn't just about you F2K.

Damon.

DeathGlam
17-02-2013, 17:24
It's a game that is really great at a casual level too. Try to see it as a game heavily aimed at the people who don't like their old army getting consistently destroyed by the latest ubber codex instead. You can play casual with a balanced rule system, but you can't play competitive with an unbalanced rule system.

Sure everything is not 100% perfect in warmahordes, but it's damned near perfect compared GW.

Ok thanks, the reason i got the impression that it does not quite do it for me is the tagline & it seems to not offer the same creativity as GW.

So considering im in the UK and im only just getting back in to playing GW after a 8/9 years absence, im quite happy playing 40k.

I would seriously consider PP in addition to GW games if i thought their was a good player base where im now based, due to the fact that many of the models appeal to me, as a painter.

f2k
17-02-2013, 17:27
This isn't just about you F2K.

Damon.

Indeed, it isn't. And I've never claimed otherwise.

However, I can only speak for myself. And while I'm absolutely sure that I'm not the only one who feels like that, I can't speak for the feelings of others.

Vazalaar
17-02-2013, 17:35
Because I'm not paying S&H from the UK just to get a book so I can use a single model. So I won't buy the book from Games Workshop, nor will I buy the model from my local store. So the store effectively losses two sales.

But that, I suspect, is actually not the whole story. Rather, I would suggest that this is indeed an attempt to see how people react to online-only essentials.

Consider this:

I can live without the online-only models as none of them are must-haves. However, I cannot live without the rules so I have to buy those directly from Games Workshop. And since I’m already on their shop, I might as well just buy the flyer and whatever else I might need there as well.
So, in effect, what Games Workshop is trying to do is to move all sales to their on-line shop by removing required materials (a rulebook this time, an overpowered must-have unit next...) from the stores. And so, slowly but surely, Games Workshop can get rid of those pesky indy-stores with their customer relations, discount schemes, and (Shock! Horror!) their WarMachine, Infinity, etc...

That, I might imagine, is the fear that some stores now how.

I didn't know you had to pay for shipping when ordering at Games Workshop online. It's certainly free shipping to Belgium, as I have done dozens of orders directly with GW and shipping was always free.

xxRavenxx
17-02-2013, 17:37
Ok thanks, the reason i got the impression that it does not quite do it for me is the tagline & it seems to not offer the same creativity as GW.

I find that the game is VERY competitive. I like it mind, but then I know what I'm in for when I play, and can enjoy that.

I've never seen a "casual" game go well in WM/H. Its a bloodbath for one side. In my opinion it needs two competitive (read: tuned and tested) lists, or it breaks down.

It also gives an extra wide gap between casual and competitive lists. In 40k, for example, a casual list can play a game vs. a competitive one, and while they're not likely to win, they can normally get an enjoyable game out of it. In WM/H they'll play two turns, three max, and have lost without denting the other side.

f2k
17-02-2013, 17:41
I didn't know you had to pay for shipping when ordering at Games Workshop online. It's certainly free shipping to Belgium, as I have done dozens of orders directly with GW and shipping was always free.

It's free if you buy for 500 DKr or more. Otherwise you'll have to pay 45 DKR.

Lars Porsenna
17-02-2013, 17:44
So here are two honest questions:

1. I don't have a GW store convenient to me, so I never go to one. Is it not true that you can order something from the on-line store, have it delivered to the B&M store and not pay shipping?

2. Lothlanathorian said above that stores with the "right trade level" can order the book for the store. If this is true, what is stopping these stores from doing a special order anyway for interested parties?

So far the main conclusion I've seen about how this book is being sold is that GW wants to test the waters with on-line sales, cause they get more of the money. The other conclusion not being talked about is, what if they feel this book will not sell well enough to justify pushing it out to the distributors?

Damon.

xxRavenxx
17-02-2013, 18:03
2. Lothlanathorian said above that stores with the "right trade level" can order the book for the store. If this is true, what is stopping these stores from doing a special order anyway for interested parties?

Nothing as such. We can get books in at 50% of their usual profit margin. (That bit is annoying...)

I think GW don't think it will sell well. (Also, its a stopgap till they redo books.)


What I dislike is that the product doesnt seem. Good....

What should be a pdf on their website, allowing kits to be used more freely (yay!) is a £20 hardback. (boo.)

Lars Porsenna
17-02-2013, 18:34
Nothing as such. We can get books in at 50% of their usual profit margin. (That bit is annoying...)

I think GW don't think it will sell well. (Also, its a stopgap till they redo books.)


This is really what I think it is, as I stated before.



What I dislike is that the product doesnt seem. Good....

What should be a pdf on their website, allowing kits to be used more freely (yay!) is a £20 hardback. (boo.)

Fair enough, but I just checked the website: it's going to be a softcover...

Damon.

xxRavenxx
17-02-2013, 19:08
but I just checked the website: it's going to be a softcover...

Yay.... :(

Reinholt
17-02-2013, 19:52
What idiot came up with the idea of selling a limited-run, poorly constructed rules pamphlet to sell your most expensive models? I see why Raven is perturbed; this is actively harmful to stores and customers. There were two good options here:

1 - Give the rules away for free online.
2 - Put a copy of the rules in pamphlet form in each box so if you buy the model, you get the rules.

GW has somehow managed to do neither, and it's going to lose them money (because less flyers will sell).

You know what is really going to happen if people do want to use flyers? People are going to pirate this thing. That's the insanity of it. It's not going to do well because it's insulting to customers, and they're just going to steal it or not use the models, which only makes things worse.

Caiphas Cain
17-02-2013, 19:56
My brother was actually told to pirate a copy of the Ork flyer rules by a GW employee. Even they think it's stupid!

wyvirn
17-02-2013, 20:00
Skies of Death isn't limited run, otherwise it wouldn't solve the problem it was meant to, that is lack of availability of the rules.

xxRavenxx
17-02-2013, 20:05
I see why Raven is upset;

I prefer the term perturbed :)

Getting upset with the company solves nothing. I shall be delivering clear and concise feedback on the matter to my rep the next time we speak. GW actually seem fairly receptive to being given clear feedback and directly asked me last month about my opinion on the pricing on some of the latest kits (Though I would suspect that they will not care to act on it, the consideration is heartening.)

As for the product itself. I agree that pirating it seems very likely. Certainly I plan myself to simply check the stormraven for BT is the same as the BA one and borrow that book off one of my regulars instead.

Reinholt
17-02-2013, 20:10
I prefer the term perturbed :)

Ask and ye shall receive. ;)

Lars Porsenna
17-02-2013, 20:12
As for the product itself. I agree that pirating it seems very likely. Certainly I plan myself to simply check the stormraven for BT is the same as the BA one and borrow that book off one of my regulars instead.

In the end this isn't such a bad idea, particularly as that is the only flyer from this book that has any impact on me. But better is that I own both the Grey Knights book AND the Blood Angels books, so no borrowing necessary. That's the big thing I'm looking for from these threads. That an the excuse to use the Chapterhouse upgrade kit...

Damon.

Mastodon
17-02-2013, 20:21
This seems like a very silly decision. Why ban all the expensive stuff that they could buy off your shelves because they wont send you a £20 stop gap book that will be pointless in 12 months when the majority of the codecies have been updated?

TheDarkDuke
18-02-2013, 01:23
This seems like a very silly decision. Why ban all the expensive stuff that they could buy off your shelves because they wont send you a £20 stop gap book that will be pointless in 12 months when the majority of the codecies have been updated?

Well to be honest id expect only 2 or 3 books to be done in those 12 months (which is most definetly not the majority) and I'm sure they probably wont be the books that are the ones most effected by this. That said both sides in this are idiots(gw and the ones banning the book)

Voss
18-02-2013, 01:43
Can't some stores order direct only products if they have the right trade terms?

Yes. Several of the stores I've dealt with in various places in the US have told me so flat out when I asked about special orders. I just enquired at one of the stores in my new locale as to how they handle Special Orders (in general), and the shop guy mentioned that they do direct only items from GW.


Everything else aside, this book looks like utter garbage anyway, so its weird to react this way to it. It would be one thing if it was a product that was going to move a lot of units, but this is the very definition of a throw-away product.

What I mostly see is a couple of retailers throwing a fit (in the post linked in the OP), and shooting themselves in the foot. Yeah, there are other games, but no matter how you feel about GW, their major lines are a good chunk of any indie store's sales. Reacting poorly to players who want to play the warhammers is a ridiculous way to try to change the company's habits.


I find that the game is VERY competitive. I like it mind, but then I know what I'm in for when I play, and can enjoy that.

I've never seen a "casual" game go well in WM/H. Its a bloodbath for one side. In my opinion it needs two competitive (read: tuned and tested) lists, or it breaks down.

It also gives an extra wide gap between casual and competitive lists. In 40k, for example, a casual list can play a game vs. a competitive one, and while they're not likely to win, they can normally get an enjoyable game out of it. In WM/H they'll play two turns, three max, and have lost without denting the other side.
Have to say, I've played WM since Escalation (the first Mk i expansion), and I rarely found this to be the case. Casual play is usually just fine. Every so often you can get a really bad matchup (and it is often as much the players as the list) and get a totally dominating game, but in my experience it is very, very rare. The only time I utterly crushed someone (to the point of rage quitting) it was because the player was an utter ***** and moved his heavy beasts into the charge range of my army one at a time, despite having faced the exact same list before in league play, 4 nights before the tournament where this happened. He actually did better in the league game.

Mastodon
18-02-2013, 06:21
Well to be honest id expect only 2 or 3 books to be done in those 12 months (which is most definetly not the majority) and I'm sure they probably wont be the books that are the ones most effected by this. That said both sides in this are idiots(gw and the ones banning the book)

They'll have done 3 40k books in 4 months at the rate they're going this year.

TheFang
18-02-2013, 08:22
What I mostly see is a couple of retailers throwing a fit (in the post linked in the OP), and shooting themselves in the foot.

They're aligning themselves with the GW alienated at their store, promoting new Warmahordes sales and picking up cheap Warhammer/40k stock to resell in store or ebay. They might even get some sweeteners from their GW sales rep. Might seem like a rational, if cynical, business decision to some.

Since the actual new content of the book and not reprints from WD or the Crusade of Fire is a few pages at most the fact that they're having the cheek to charge for it at all speaks volumes.

Vazalaar
18-02-2013, 08:39
I know no people that have heared of Warmachine or Hordes, also the people who I know, only a handful have heared of Games Workshop, most just know I paint stuff. The miniature games sector is still small. GW is the biggest player in it. The only thing those store owners do is reducing their income.
I also think owning a independent game store is not really a great or steady income. So as Voss rightly says, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

f2k
18-02-2013, 09:11
I know no people that have heared of Warmachine or Hordes, also the people who I know, only a handful have heared of Games Workshop, most just know I paint stuff. The miniature games sector is still small. GW is the biggest player in it. The only thing those store owners do is reducing their income.
I also think owning a independent game store is not really a great or steady income. So as Voss rightly says, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Be careful with the generalisations - the plural of anecdote is not data...

Case in point: I know quite a few who have heard of tabletop gaming - and all those I play against know of many different systems.

Yes, Games Workshop is big, but they're getting smaller day by day. They still seem to have the UK marked in a virtual stranglehold, but they're loosing ground in the rest of the world at a frightening pace. And as the sales of Games Workshop products go down, the sale of other products go up.

I would agree with you, though, that owning an indy-store is a bit of a gamble. Some years ago I was asked if I wanted to buy the store that I was freelancing for - and I quickly turned it down. The market is much too volatile and you either spread yourself across several systems (with the risk of having too many products stored in your back-room) or you tie yourself to a single system and live and die by it. In either case, you're not making a lot of money for the time and investment needed.

Problem is, as I see it, that Games Workshop has now driven the price so high that even store-loyalty is not enough to keep you afloat. Many players I know (and quite a few on the price feedback thread on WarSeer) have stated that they simply will not pay retail prices any more. So a brick'n'mortar store has to either gut itself in order to provide discounts or switch to an online-only strategy.
Sad as it might be, I fear that we're witnesses to the death-struggle of the friendly local hobby store...

lbecks
18-02-2013, 10:09
I know no people that have heared of Warmachine or Hordes, also the people who I know, only a handful have heared of Games Workshop, most just know I paint stuff. The miniature games sector is still small. GW is the biggest player in it. The only thing those store owners do is reducing their income.
I also think owning a independent game store is not really a great or steady income. So as Voss rightly says, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

A lot of game shops will also sell board games, card games, and roleplaying games. Games Workshop may just be a fraction of their business, and a fraction they can afford to give up if they do well with the other types of games and trying to convert miniature fans to Privateer Press.

6mmhero
18-02-2013, 11:22
Very clever on the stores side of things, buy GW products on the cheap, give a bit of a discount on a different game to get people playing it and then make money off of the cheap models and the interest in a new system.
I have not seen much about the new book but thought it was a compendium of previously published rules (in WD). If the FAQ does indeed direct you to this book then poor form indeed.
I think GW are going towards having certain lines as direct only, which seems odd indeed.

duffybear1988
18-02-2013, 12:08
Good for them

lbecks
18-02-2013, 12:13
I think GW are going towards having certain lines as direct only, which seems odd indeed.

I think GW are realizing what a lot of online retailers have know for the last decade+. Having a streamlined system with a single warehouse and point of shipping that people from all over the world can connect to and browse may be better than having to keep stock and inventory for hundreds of individual stores each with limited retail space.

Hengist
18-02-2013, 13:37
It's not difficult to see why independent retailers should be vexed by GW making a core rulebook direct-only; I'm not convinced that directly encouraging customers to leave by offering a trade-in to another company's system is a particularly sensible response, but it doesn't change the fact that squandering retailers' good will is a foolish move on GW's part. I wouldn't blame any store-owner whose response was to cease (or at least slacken) promotion of GW's products in favour of their competitors', however.

ehlijen
18-02-2013, 13:57
But this wasn't meant to be a core book. It was similar to crusade of fire: an optional expansion, a small one at that. GW didn't bother translating it into any other languages and didn't nearly make enough of them to qualify as a core release (they're already sold out).

The internet decided that this would be a core release, because it has the talon and ork flyer rules, despite GWs best efforts! GW still thought only few people really wanted those rules.

Reinholt
18-02-2013, 14:03
The internet decided that this would be a core release, because it has the talon and ork flyer rules, despite GWs best efforts! GW still thought only few people really wanted those rules.

I find that hard to believe, but if true, whomever is in charge of release planning at GW should be fired. It shouldn't be news that the rules for your coolest models might be something your customers would want so they can use them in the games you sell.

Seriously. That's not rocket science. If GW can't anticipate very basic things like that, they don't deserve to exist as a company.

Kalandros
18-02-2013, 16:27
A giant thank you for everyone's continued loyalty and support. I don't know if you have already heard, but GW decreased discounts through third party distributors by 2% in January. As a result, we have increased our GW prices by 1%.
Keep those dice rolling!
Dan, Lea, Holly and Hanna
A Webstore I use often for GW products posted this on their facebook page.
GW are really wringing independents at the throat. Just a little bit at a time.

6mmhero
18-02-2013, 17:46
I think GW are realizing what a lot of online retailers have know for the last decade+. Having a streamlined system with a single warehouse and point of shipping that people from all over the world can connect to and browse may be better than having to keep stock and inventory for hundreds of individual stores each with limited retail space.
Well that is true but what I meant by odd was that they did not even send copies to their own stores this weekend to sell or even one copy for the staff to promote. Splash releases for the stores seemed to work.
On a side note it must have been a small print run (by usual standards) to sell out that quickly.

lbecks
18-02-2013, 18:19
A Webstore I use often for GW products posted this on their facebook page.
GW are really wringing independents at the throat. Just a little bit at a time.

This is one thing i've been expecting GW to do for a long time. Instead of getting mad at online retailers like they have in the past like they're pirates or criminals they should just try to close the gap if they have problems with the price they're selling at.

Inquisitor Engel
18-02-2013, 19:24
You know what?

Not a chance. I may cut back my spending but I would NEVER trade my armies in for another system. The universe of 40k is what brought me in, it's why I stay. I've yet to see a game that comes even half the way there.

Avatar_exADV
18-02-2013, 19:32
This morning, I received an e-mail from GW's customer contact line, as a response to a (politely-worded) complaint that I couldn't order this from my preferred retailer. Their response was to apologize "for the confusion" and to state that retailers will be able to direct-order the book like anything else. Dunno if this is actual confusion or an about-face on GW's part, but eh, if my retailer can order it after all, I'm happy enough.

xxRavenxx
18-02-2013, 20:51
@Avatar:

My rep happened to be visiting the store today. I asked him directly, and he phoned the office to check. Trade sales are not getting any copies of the book. It is not available to them.

Direct Sales is the company name for their website. Ie. Stores can order from there.

GomezAddams
18-02-2013, 21:12
To play devils advocate here...

Its in an indies store best interest to get you into something new, because it gets you spending again. Its all well and good them flogging you a set of space marines but if your regularly going in and picking up other things you'll likely spend a little more (a squad of this, a crew of that etc).

I for one think its a brilliant idea. Its about time some of the long in the tooth players broadened there horizons a bit. May I interest any of you in some of the fine figures from Dreamforge or even Malifaux :D

ehlijen
18-02-2013, 21:16
I find that hard to believe, but if true, whomever is in charge of release planning at GW should be fired. It shouldn't be news that the rules for your coolest models might be something your customers would want so they can use them in the games you sell.

Seriously. That's not rocket science. If GW can't anticipate very basic things like that, they don't deserve to exist as a company.

How else would you explain that this book wasn't offered in other languages, direct only, was less advertised than even crusade of fire and sold out in 3 days despite not being announced as a limited edition to try and make that happen?
GW even admitted that it was 90% compendium of previous releases and had little new content (though that part was still proudly announce). This book was set up to be overlooked by everyone but the person who put the talon and fighta in it.

And who knows? Maybe those flyers and the WD with their rules didn't sell all that well either and GW didn't expect that to change because of what the fans would undoubtedly decry as an overprized rehash of WD articles? It's not like the reaction to the book's quality has been very positive so far, after all.

Asensur
18-02-2013, 21:22
My local independent retailer (Spain) can order Direct-only items.

However he gets less profit margins and has a monthly limit of the order value.

Also, I think there are too many campfires for a "WD update" product that will be outdated soon.

Scaryscarymushroom
18-02-2013, 21:31
I wouldn't miss GW. I'm not surprised there are Indies who are banning specific gw products.

What would surprise me is if they quit cold-turkey without offering/promoting an alternative.

xxRavenxx
18-02-2013, 21:44
I wouldn't miss GW.

I wouldn't miss Ford cars. I suspect that provides little comfort to their many fans :)

Mastodon
18-02-2013, 22:09
How else would you explain that this book wasn't offered in other languages, direct only, was less advertised than even crusade of fire and sold out in 3 days despite not being announced as a limited edition to try and make that happen?
GW even admitted that it was 90% compendium of previous releases and had little new content (though that part was still proudly announce). This book was set up to be overlooked by everyone but the person who put the talon and fighta in it.

And who knows? Maybe those flyers and the WD with their rules didn't sell all that well either and GW didn't expect that to change because of what the fans would undoubtedly decry as an overprized rehash of WD articles? It's not like the reaction to the book's quality has been very positive so far, after all.

All of the rules bar the Storm Talon/Ork Bomma are available in the current faq's for those armies. The only things you cant get are the rules for Storm Ravens for Space Marines/Black Templars (Which are the same as the Blood Angel book) and those rules for the flyers.

The Storm Talon & Storm Raven will be in the new Space Marine book which is most likely only a few months away, and the Ork Bomma is at most a year from now at the rate they're going through codex updates.

The book is a simple stop gap for people to get if they want a Storm Talon. Its not a 'core rulebook', its not mandatory, and indie sellers throwing a fit over not being able to get as much profit off of it are being very silly.

Verm1s
18-02-2013, 22:33
I wouldn't miss GW.


I wouldn't miss Ford cars. I suspect that provides little comfort to their many fans :)

Reminds me of that episode of Top Gear where they tried to prove how great British Leyland cars were before the company went bust. Conclusion: they weren't.

Havock
18-02-2013, 23:48
You know, the more I read about it, the more I am certain that it is not out of malice that GW does this, but some poorly thought out way of 'consolidating'. After their golden near-monopoly years of the 90's and early 2000's, they find more and more competitors encroaching on 'their turf'.

Previously, an indepent stockist basically meant a store that also had Magic: the Gathering/misc. cardgames/larp/whatever stuff as well as wargames (ie. GW, maybe a bit of classic battletech somehwere), right now they have to 'share space' in many an independant stockist. And in many places these systems are 'winning', whether you like A, B or C more, GW's systems have a huge startup cost, far less the case with many of their competitors. It would be poorly thought out but we are used to that by now.

ehlijen
19-02-2013, 02:51
All of the rules bar the Storm Talon/Ork Bomma are available in the current faq's for those armies. The only things you cant get are the rules for Storm Ravens for Space Marines/Black Templars (Which are the same as the Blood Angel book) and those rules for the flyers.

The Storm Talon & Storm Raven will be in the new Space Marine book which is most likely only a few months away, and the Ork Bomma is at most a year from now at the rate they're going through codex updates.

The book is a simple stop gap for people to get if they want a Storm Talon. Its not a 'core rulebook', its not mandatory, and indie sellers throwing a fit over not being able to get as much profit off of it are being very silly.

And the storm talon is even in the iPad version of the codex, I'm told. So really no one absolutely needs this book apart from ork flyer owners that don't already have the WD article.

Voss
19-02-2013, 03:45
I wouldn't miss GW. I'm not surprised there are Indies who are banning specific gw products.

What would surprise me is if they quit cold-turkey without offering/promoting an alternative.
It would surprise me if they actually quit at all. Whether they like it or not, unless the situation is very unusual, GW stuff makes up a chunk of their sales, and indie stores can tip into disaster fairly easily. Declaring that they just won't sell a major manufacturer's products is bad business, no matter how angry they get at GW's business model, and I know a few who do get very angry indeed. But they know they simply can't afford to stop, or gamble that their customers will shift to another system en masse. And while they may want to support another company/system, the Great Privateer Shortage was not all that long ago- shop owners that pay attention to the distribution networks know that other companies can't always keep up with demand increases. Infinity models are still often out of stock in US distributors, to use an example from another company.

Inquisitor Shego
19-02-2013, 04:44
I once spoke to an Independent Stockist who was selling his entire GW inventory 50% off and bidding GW an unpleasant farewell. After being told they wouldn't supply him Dark Vengeance or the new rule book, but were hoping to unload all the Hobbit they could, he polite told them to bleep off. On the plus side I got a Temple of Skulls, Black Reach, squad of DE warriors, squad of C:SM all half price, I went booooyah. He's still in business :)

Atrum Angelus
19-02-2013, 05:11
While I disagree with many things GW has done lately as a company, Gnome Games banning a book and considering it contraband is one of the silliest things for them to do. All they are doing are hurting the players who still enjoy the game. They seem to want to either force GW players to switch game systems or not play at the store. Which, for people who still enjoy the game, would only make them direct the anger and frustration they have for GW towards the local store.

ehlijen
19-02-2013, 05:50
While I disagree with many things GW has done lately as a company, Gnome Games banning a book and considering it contraband is one of the silliest things for them to do. All they are doing are hurting the players who still enjoy the game. They seem to want to either force GW players to switch game systems or not play at the store. Which, for people who still enjoy the game, would only make them direct the anger and frustration they have for GW towards the local store.

This is as much 'against GW' as 'for the game they like and therefore want you to like'. They may have good reasons to like warmachine more than GW, but if you like GW or don't like warmachine, don't let them dictate a game for you. Pick the game you want to play (even if its neither of the two).

Voss
19-02-2013, 06:23
I once spoke to an Independent Stockist who was selling his entire GW inventory 50% off and bidding GW an unpleasant farewell. After being told they wouldn't supply him Dark Vengeance or the new rule book, but were hoping to unload all the Hobbit they could, he polite told them to bleep off. On the plus side I got a Temple of Skulls, Black Reach, squad of DE warriors, squad of C:SM all half price, I went booooyah. He's still in business :)
And? That couldn't have been more than a couple months ago. Will they still be there next year?
Also, given the wide variety of stuff you bought, you're the kind of customer GW likes.

Mastodon
19-02-2013, 07:00
And the storm talon is even in the iPad version of the codex, I'm told. So really no one absolutely needs this book apart from ork flyer owners that don't already have the WD article.

Exactly, I really dont understand the rage its generated on other forums. Well actually I do, its people misreading something about a product they werent going to buy, and getting outrageously angry over it.

budman
19-02-2013, 07:38
To play devils advocate here...

Its in an indies store best interest to get you into something new, because it gets you spending again. Its all well and good them flogging you a set of space marines but if your regularly going in and picking up other things you'll likely spend a little more (a squad of this, a crew of that etc).

I for one think its a brilliant idea. Its about time some of the long in the tooth players broadened there horizons a bit. May I interest any of you in some of the fine figures from Dreamforge or even Malifaux :D

Malifaux stuff does look good

AGC
19-02-2013, 08:00
The book is a simple stop gap for people to get if they want a Storm Talon. Its not a 'core rulebook', its not mandatory...

And yet Games Workshop listed it under Space Marine army "essentials": http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440270a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

If you're new to the hobby it certainly sounds like it's something you need to buy if you want to field flyers.

Personally my guess is what's happened is it was regarded as such a small release no one paid much attention to the marketing of it or the kind of expectations the customer base were building up, I've seen in other threads people even thought it might include brand new units. A single well worded announcement could have fixed it but of course Games Workshop don't talk about their upcoming products now.

Verm1s
19-02-2013, 08:53
All they are doing are hurting the players who still enjoy the game.

All three of them.

Mastodon
19-02-2013, 09:00
And yet Games Workshop listed it under Space Marine army "essentials": http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440270a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

If you're new to the hobby it certainly sounds like it's something you need to buy if you want to field flyers.

Personally my guess is what's happened is it was regarded as such a small release no one paid much attention to the marketing of it or the kind of expectations the customer base were building up, I've seen in other threads people even thought it might include brand new units. A single well worded announcement could have fixed it but of course Games Workshop don't talk about their upcoming products now.

Its not their fault people on the internet were making things up about their product.

Krucifus
19-02-2013, 09:32
I do love the use of the word contraband here. It gives me an image of 2 people playing a 40k game at one of these stores, one of which is reading DFTS and the other whom is snorting cocaine off of the table, then them not knowing which one to evict first.

AGC
19-02-2013, 11:24
Its not their fault people on the internet were making things up about their product.

It kind of is. Games Workshop said it included exclusive new content. It is not unreasonable for people to speculate what that new content was and GW had to be well aware that people would speculate. If they didn't want ill informed speculation about their product they should either have said nothing about the new content or said what the extent of the new content was.

Omniassiah
19-02-2013, 11:50
And the storm talon is even in the iPad version of the codex, I'm told. So really no one absolutely needs this book apart from ork flyer owners that don't already have the WD article.

Great! so for $550 US I can get the rules for that $45 SM flyer that I want to use since I missed out on the WD as well. Less people have Ipad then you think, Fewer still will have bought the Ipad codex in addition to the hardcover book(I know of none that have both). This is one of the things that every game company I know about would not have an issue either posting online or including in the box.

MiyamatoMusashi
19-02-2013, 12:15
So, wait wait wait... I have two Ork Bommas. The FAQ now says that to use them, I need the rules in this book. Have the rules actually changed since the White Dwarf article plus previous FAQ? If so in what way? It'll be bad enough to buy a book for £20 just so I can continue using two models I already own and have rules for... it'll be flat-out insulting if I spend the money then find that nothing's actually different anyway.

Reinholt
19-02-2013, 12:33
Great! so for $550 US I can get the rules for that $45 SM flyer that I want to use since I missed out on the WD as well. Less people have Ipad then you think, Fewer still will have bought the Ipad codex in addition to the hardcover book(I know of none that have both). This is one of the things that every game company I know about would not have an issue either posting online or including in the box.


So, wait wait wait... I have two Ork Bommas. The FAQ now says that to use them, I need the rules in this book. Have the rules actually changed since the White Dwarf article plus previous FAQ? If so in what way? It'll be bad enough to buy a book for £20 just so I can continue using two models I already own and have rules for... it'll be flat-out insulting if I spend the money then find that nothing's actually different anyway.

And this is why I think this book is such a terrible idea.

Why make it harder for people to buy your models? GW is actively impeding the ability of their customer base to purchase their products for a short-term, one-off release. This is, simply put, stupid.

Release it online for free if you want people to buy your flyers, GW.


Its not their fault people on the internet were making things up about their product.

Actually, it is. If GW ever did any sort of marketing or product development discussion, this kind of thing wouldn't happen, or would happen with less intensity. They don't, so it does. It's a conscious choice they have made, as well as part and parcel of the market they are in, and they need to live with the consequences if they want to be in the space.


I do love the use of the word contraband here. It gives me an image of 2 people playing a 40k game at one of these stores, one of which is reading DFTS and the other whom is snorting cocaine off of the table, then them not knowing which one to evict first.

This is a false dilemma. The cocaine snorting guy is invariably playing DE or Slaanesh, and it's just method acting to get in character for the game. Thus, you only have to throw out the DFTS guy. Clearly you've never run a gaming store.

tristessa
19-02-2013, 13:40
This is as laughable as the 'occupy GW' thread that was kicking about on here last week.

Independent Retailers who want to take action against GW should stop stocking GW products! Sorted!

Gamers who want to trade their GW products for a decent amount of cash should use eBay! Sorted!

There you go. World put to rights...

Verm1s
19-02-2013, 14:51
Independent Retailers who want to take action against GW should stop stocking GW products! Sorted!

This seems like some kind of a step towards that, weaning at least some GWombies onto something else.


Gamers who want to trade their GW products for a decent amount of cash should use eBay! Sorted!

Pff.

Mastodon
19-02-2013, 14:52
And this is why I think this book is such a terrible idea.Actually, it is. If GW ever did any sort of marketing or product development discussion, this kind of thing wouldn't happen, or would happen with less intensity. They don't, so it does. It's a conscious choice they have made, as well as part and parcel of the market they are in, and they need to live with the consequences if they want to be in the space.

It really isnt. They didnt announce the product until last saturday. The only speculation and promises of 'exclusive content' were created by people on the internet reading a product brief that was leaked onto the net by an I assume about to be fired shop worker. GW have never said 'you must buy this to use a Storm Talon/Ork Bomma'. They have never said 'If you dont have this you cant play 40k' but if you check any thread on the net about this book its stated as if Tom Kirby himself came onstage and announced it with a bull horn.

The exlusive content everyone is raging about are 4 new missions. Which you dont have to play.

All the people shouting and screaming that they cant use Valkyries any more without buying this book have only themselves to blame and is another glaring reason why GW dont do black boxes/announce new armies months in advance.

tristessa
19-02-2013, 15:04
This seems like some kind of a step towards that, weaning at least some GWombies onto something else.


They can wean all they like, but if they want to hurt GW they'll just put their money where their mouth is! It's simple - a decision that will directly hit GW.

Now you need to ask why they are not doing that. What are they afraid of? Losing money!

If they want to wean people off GW then stop selling GW products and stop supporting GW players! However, they're probably aware that it's people who are interested in GW products that come into their store and thus are exposed to new things. That's cool, it's a cool ecosystem!

Just saying they shouldn't dress up something so small as some sort of righteous crusade when they could do a lot more.
If they are going to stop people using GW products that they have bought in that store over this, then that's the worst sort of customer service anyway. Better to just go for the nuclear option and nut up or shut up!

Herzlos
19-02-2013, 15:25
GW have never said 'you must buy this to use a Storm Talon/Ork Bomma'.

Except that's exactly what they have said, in the FAQ. The FAQ essentially just says refer to this expansion for the rules.

weeble1000
19-02-2013, 15:35
The retailer reaction here seems to be calculated to twinge GW corporate management in a sensitive spot as a means to provoke attention. It appears to be the reaction of someone who wants to sell GW products, but feels mistreated by the manufacturer.

GW is, or should be, concerned about market competition. The response from the retailers twinged that sore spot by communicating that not only would the stores reduce promotion of GW products, but would proactively take steps to reduce GW's market share. It is essentially a threat, likely provoked by a lack of response to anything but. If you do not treat me fairly, I will use what power I have to damage your business.

That retailers have been driven to this point is frankly remarkable, especially considering GW's history of tossing problematic retailers to the curb. The owners must have known the risks of such an action, and must have felt comfortable with the prospect of ceasing to carry GW products. That should be a big indication of the erosion of GW market share. And that willingness to be aggressive should be a wake up call to GW. These shops are not dependent on your business anymore and can quickly turn from a partner in the market to a dangerous adversary.

It is an aggressive and risky move on the part of the retailers, but GW does not seem to respond to much else.

MiyamatoMusashi
19-02-2013, 17:18
To be completely clear, I think if independent stockists have a problem with GW they should just not stock GW. Simples. Turning it into some kind of moral crusade like the "occupy" nonsense would be very silly indeed.

As a gamer/customer... all I really care about is that if I want to play by the rules (my opponents will certainly want me to!) I now, according to GW's FAQ, need to go and spend £20 on a book containing rules for one model that might not even have changed compared to the rules I'm using right now (no-one seems able to say either way, and GW will only say it's "new rules" but then they say that about the Stormtalon too, and the only actual new rule for that AFAIK is that you can take it for vanilla marines and BT). I don't think anyone can really pretend that's not something to be a bit annoyed about... it's a £20 tax, out of nowhere, to keep using a unit I've already got, and they won't even tell me whether it's a tax I actually need to pay!

Verm1s
19-02-2013, 19:29
If they are going to stop people using GW products that they have bought in that store over this, then that's the worst sort of customer service anyway.

I don't recall reading anything about that.


If they want to wean people off GW then... stop supporting GW players! What are they afraid of? Losing money!... Better to just go for the nuclear option and nut up or shut up!

Well, congrats on taking the kooky kneejerk scenario I tried to rebut in my last post, and running with it. And then some. Can't say if I'd be any good in retail, but I fancy your chances even less. :p

Omniassiah
19-02-2013, 22:17
It really isnt. They didnt announce the product until last saturday. The only speculation and promises of 'exclusive content' were created by people on the internet reading a product brief that was leaked onto the net by an I assume about to be fired shop worker. GW have never said 'you must buy this to use a Storm Talon/Ork Bomma'. They have never said 'If you dont have this you cant play 40k' but if you check any thread on the net about this book its stated as if Tom Kirby himself came onstage and announced it with a bull horn.

The exlusive content everyone is raging about are 4 new missions. Which you dont have to play.

All the people shouting and screaming that they cant use Valkyries any more without buying this book have only themselves to blame and is another glaring reason why GW dont do black boxes/announce new armies months in advance.

The exclusive content is that it is currently the only way to get access to the rules for certain models that they sell. The reliance on up to a $450 Ipad codex or spending $33 in addition to your codex to get the rules for a model. Now I can understand a company not giving regular rulebooks and army books out for free online, or well at least the argument for it, Not providing easy (and free) access to rules for models produced in between releases is just stupid. First of all the sheer fact of the goodwill it garners you is worth its weight in gold, second it helps make it easier to field the model making it more likely to sell. Right now if You don't own that WD your first Storm Talon will cost you $78 to field. For another example if you don't have the WD containing the rules for a Eldar Night Spinner from 2-3 years ago how are you going to field it? Rules aren't available anywhere else.

Havock
19-02-2013, 23:11
I do love the use of the word contraband here. It gives me an image of 2 people playing a 40k game at one of these stores, one of which is reading DFTS and the other whom is snorting cocaine off of the table, then them not knowing which one to evict first.

Depends, is the other guy using the cocaine to check line of sight?

Then it's just a counts-as laser pointer.

Dyrnwyn
20-02-2013, 00:06
The retailer reaction here seems to be calculated to twinge GW corporate management in a sensitive spot as a means to provoke attention. It appears to be the reaction of someone who wants to sell GW products, but feels mistreated by the manufacturer.

GW is, or should be, concerned about market competition. The response from the retailers twinged that sore spot by communicating that not only would the stores reduce promotion of GW products, but would proactively take steps to reduce GW's market share. It is essentially a threat, likely provoked by a lack of response to anything but. If you do not treat me fairly, I will use what power I have to damage your business.

That retailers have been driven to this point is frankly remarkable, especially considering GW's history of tossing problematic retailers to the curb. The owners must have known the risks of such an action, and must have felt comfortable with the prospect of ceasing to carry GW products. That should be a big indication of the erosion of GW market share. And that willingness to be aggressive should be a wake up call to GW. These shops are not dependent on your business anymore and can quickly turn from a partner in the market to a dangerous adversary.

It is an aggressive and risky move on the part of the retailers, but GW does not seem to respond to much else.
Considering that Black Diamond's blogpost has disappeared, and Gnomes Games doesn't have seem to have this 'offer' anywhere on it's webpage, I'm going to say that 'threat' is a pretty spot on assessment of this announcement.


I find that the game is VERY competitive. I like it mind, but then I know what I'm in for when I play, and can enjoy that.

I've never seen a "casual" game go well in WM/H. Its a bloodbath for one side. In my opinion it needs two competitive (read: tuned and tested) lists, or it breaks down.

It also gives an extra wide gap between casual and competitive lists. In 40k, for example, a casual list can play a game vs. a competitive one, and while they're not likely to win, they can normally get an enjoyable game out of it. In WM/H they'll play two turns, three max, and have lost without denting the other side.
I find this demonstrably false, and I wish it would stop being said. I've seen casual lists repeatedly destroyed by competitive lists in both Warhammers regardless of tactics used. I've seen lists using suboptimal units and casters win games in WM/H.

Maneuver and use of units is more important in Warmahordes than simply having the units in the list. Yes, there are optimal units and subobtimal units, but the divide between the two is not the same as between say, Venomthropes and Trygons, or Vespid and Crisis Suits. The vast majority of the 'issue' of Warmachine is that it has a chess-like win condition of killing a particular piece to win the game - meaning games can be over VERY quickly if you are new and aren't aware that say, heavy warbeast Molik Kharn can be catapulted 20"+ across the table into your 'king's' face, or that those rockets have Arcing Fire and it's not enough to just stand behind a big model, you need to be close to it or they can still hit you. In the case of turn 2/3 wins, you didn't make a dent in the other side, but the other side didn't make much of a dent in your force either, you just lost your caster.

Angelwing
20-02-2013, 06:59
For another example if you don't have the WD containing the rules for a Eldar Night Spinner from 2-3 years ago how are you going to field it? Rules aren't available anywhere else.


How about from the GW website as a free PDF?
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1640390a_NightSpinner_Rules.pdf)

Concerning the new book, quite frankly all of its content should really have been on the website as a pdf.

tristessa
20-02-2013, 07:36
I don't recall reading anything about that.



Well, congrats on taking the kooky kneejerk scenario I tried to rebut in my last post, and running with it. And then some. Can't say if I'd be any good in retail, but I fancy your chances even less. :p


For that reason all content in your new Aerial Combat Book is banned for all of our events.

That's every flyer in that book then, non?

The kooky kneejerk reaction is the store biting the hand that feeds (i.e the customer). For the record, in a distant past I worked in retail and was pretty good at it, for both GW and other companies. Key to that is good customer service and not punitively punishing the customer because you don't like a supplier. Forget what you've seen in Clerks, or what you imagine the truth is. The customer is always right. That's the cornerstone of retail because those people keep you in business. In a niche industry such as toy soldiers or records (have worked in both), you need to keep that customer service at a really high level because there are cheaper online alternatives - use them! Especially if this store bans you from using your flyers.

Equally, if you get poor service from GW, use another store! If your store gets poor service from GW trade, drop the account!

Not to mention that GW has been doing direct only stuff for years - why the outrage now? Oh right yeah, that weird sense of entitlement that people get when talking about GW in 2013.

I agree it's weird they don't want to sell it in stores but why didn't this retailer kick up about not being able to order in imperial armour books, specialist games or bitz orders. Pretty sure the trade agreement that the store signed will have been clear about what they can and cannot get.

However, what this has done is create a good amount of interest in that store, despite their appalling approach to their customers, and has tapped in to the faux-anger around the space marine trademark fun. As I said in that thread, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

rich1231
20-02-2013, 07:49
tristessa, in the UK and Europe GW occupy various positions.. A manufacturer, a distributor and a retailer. The last 2 put them in direct competition with their indies. There are strict rules in UK/EU about abuse of dominance and competition which GW have to abide by.

Restricting sales to their own channels, and preventing indies to plan and invest in releases properly is a delicate balancing act that if they get wrong and an entity makes a powerful and formal complaint to the OFT or the European commission then the penalties are severe.

tristessa
20-02-2013, 07:58
tristessa, in the UK and Europe GW occupy various positions.. A manufacturer, a distributor and a retailer. The last 2 put them in direct competition with their indies. There are strict rules in UK/EU about abuse of dominance and competition which GW have to abide by.

Restricting sales to their own channels, and preventing indies to plan and invest in releases properly is a delicate balancing act that if they get wrong and an entity makes a powerful and formal complaint to the OFT or the European commission then the penalties are severe.

Hi Rich - are you implying that Wayland will be putting in that complaint? I'd have thought that your trade agreement is quite up front about what you can and cannot order.

I question how much GW unfairly compete with the indies when the current terms hardwire in up to a 25% price advantage for you over GW?

Also, if I could be slightly mischievous, given how Wayland shunted Maelstrom out of business isn't it a bit rich to talk about abuse of dominance and competition? ;)

Business, not personal I know.

Kervin
20-02-2013, 08:48
Hi Rich - are you implying that Wayland will be putting in that complaint? I'd have thought that your trade agreement is quite up front about what you can and cannot order.

I question how much GW unfairly compete with the indies when the current terms hardwire in up to a 25% price advantage for you over GW?

Also, if I could be slightly mischievous, given how Wayland shunted Maelstrom out of business isn't it a bit rich to talk about abuse of dominance and competition? ;)

Business, not personal I know.

There is a slight difference between two online retail peers competing and that leading to one going out of business, and a creator of a game using it's power to rewrite rules and then release those rules exclusively on there website.

It would be like Apple making a new 30-pin i-device cable in say black selling it only in Apple stores and on there website, and then saying if you use an old cable you void you warranty.

It is GW using it power as a developer and manufacture to take a key piece of the game (this case the rules for models) and holding a monopoly of that key piece.

tristessa
20-02-2013, 08:52
It is GW using it power as a developer and manufacture to take a key piece of the game (this case the rules for models) and holding a monopoly of that key piece.

Not really - the FAQs online contain the rules you need. The rest is optional fluff-based rules, like the stuff in the limited and OOP blood in the badlands etc.

If you bought a 5th edition rulebook, does that entitle you to a new 6th ed? Of course not. Expansions come out for all sorts of things. It's how it works.

Lest we forget, GW stores aren't carrying it either. Is GW manufacturing now hindering GW retail under the EU rules?

f2k
20-02-2013, 08:57
Not really - the FAQs online contain the rules you need. The rest is optional fluff-based rules, like the stuff in the limited and OOP blood in the badlands etc.

Lest we forget, GW stores aren't carrying it either. Is GW manufacturing now hindering GW retail under the EU rules?

Suppose I don't have the White Dwarf where the old rules for the Ork flyers were, where can I find them now? They aren't in the FAQ any more...

Kervin
20-02-2013, 09:02
Not really - the FAQs online contain the rules you need. The rest is optional fluff-based rules, like the stuff in the limited and OOP blood in the badlands etc.

Lest we forget, GW stores aren't carrying it either. Is GW manufacturing now hindering GW retail under the EU rules?

One, the rules are not in the FAQ and two, the book is sold out.


White Dwarf June 2012 (UK WD390)
Updated rules for the Stormtalon Gunship and Stormraven
Gunship can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.


White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.

tristessa
20-02-2013, 09:04
Well shut my mouth!

That said, for everyone who said GW should go back to it's 1995-2002 period then looks like you just got your wish.

Incidently, it's temporarily sold out. Short print run. For those asking what happens if they don't have the WD, then it's the same as what was happening prior to this point.

Would you rather GW had sat on the models until those armies get new codexes? Might have happened.

f2k
20-02-2013, 09:33
Would you rather GW had sat on the models until those armies get new codexes? Might have happened.

Well, truth to be told, I would prefer that they had never made those models in the first place. Flyers have no place at 28 mm. scale except, perhaps, as an abstract rule like the Orbital Bombardment available to Space Marines.

However, seeing as the models have now been released, I would prefer that they posted PDF-updates with new rules on their webpage, freely available, until a new codex is released. Or, even better, put the rules in the boxes themselves.

duffybear1988
20-02-2013, 10:40
Well, truth to be told, I would prefer that they had never made those models in the first place. Flyers have no place at 28 mm. scale except, perhaps, as an abstract rule like the Orbital Bombardment available to Space Marines.

However, seeing as the models have now been released, I would prefer that they posted PDF-updates with new rules on their webpage, freely available, until a new codex is released. Or, even better, put the rules in the boxes themselves.

Here here.

buddy_revell
20-02-2013, 10:57
you buy models for a game.
you buy rules for that game.
a new model comes out, and there arent any rules for it.
the rules were provided, for a time, in a patched-up FAQ or at the very least in a magazine which was available at the time of purchase.
the official rules are then released in a book which is available for sale.


is anybody spotting a pattern? at no point in this was anything "for free". you have to pay for your stuff. if you didnt expect to have to pay for stuff, youre an idiot.

jack da greenskin
20-02-2013, 11:38
you buy models for a game.
you buy rules for that game.
a new model comes out, and there arent any rules for it.
the rules were provided, for a time, in a patched-up FAQ or at the very least in a magazine which was available at the time of purchase.
the official rules are then released in a book which is available for sale.


is anybody spotting a pattern? at no point in this was anything "for free". you have to pay for your stuff. if you didnt expect to have to pay for stuff, youre an idiot.

So you think its completely fair someone would pay £25-30 for a codex, to use all their models, spend the £30-40 on another model, then have to buy a compedium of rules, just to use that one model.

It would cost them nothing to put the rules in the box, and you never know, it might increase the sales of that model.

Whitwort Stormbringer
20-02-2013, 11:39
If they want to wean people off GW then stop selling GW products and stop supporting GW players!
Because that wouldn't be "weaning", it would be going cold turkey.

Presumably, the store in question does still thrive on GW sales, but is sick of dealing with GW and wants to see whether or not it can encourage sales of other games instead, whose creators are less costly/bothersome to work with than GW. The "nut up or shut up!" mentality is overly simplistic and frankly just stupid from a business perspective, it's only sensible that before making a rash decision like dropping a major money-maker you would attempt to seek out alternate sources of income. If that pans out and they can make good money on other manufacturers' games, then they may be able to drop GW altogether, but before you go off half-cocked you test the waters and lay the groundwork for replacing them.


Just saying they shouldn't dress up something so small as some sort of righteous crusade when they could do a lot more.
Sure, agreed, but at no point have I seen the store in question talk this up like some sort of righteous crusade, or great act of defiance. As far as I can tell, all the indy store did was state their displeasure with GW's decision to make the book direct-order only, and announced the corresponding trade-in/buy-back program to encourage a different game. Probably could have been through a slightly less snarky channel than an open later to GW, since it seems like advertising the policy/program in-store and on the store's website would have been sufficient, but even then I'm sure someone online would have picked it up and run with it and we'd be having pretty much the same discussion anyways.


the rules were provided, for a time, in a patched-up FAQ or at the very least in a magazine which was available at the time of purchase.
the official rules are then released in a book which is available for sale.

is anybody spotting a pattern? at no point in this was anything "for free". you have to pay for your stuff. if you didnt expect to have to pay for stuff, youre an idiot.
The patched-up FAQ wasn't free?

ac4155
20-02-2013, 11:42
The store should just stop stocking GW altogether if they feel that strongly about it. Otherwise I just see that's as an attempted publicity stunt for them.

Chivs
20-02-2013, 11:55
you buy models for a game.
you buy rules for that game.
a new model comes out, and there arent any rules for it.
the rules were provided, for a time, in a patched-up FAQ or at the very least in a magazine which was available at the time of purchase.
the official rules are then released in a book which is available for sale.


is anybody spotting a pattern? at no point in this was anything "for free". you have to pay for your stuff. if you didnt expect to have to pay for stuff, youre an idiot.

Compare and contrast with when the Eldar Night Spinner was released. Or the Shadowsword/Stormlord varient kits that weren't in either Apocalypse or Apocalypse Reloaded.

You buy rules for that game.
A new model comes out, and there aren't any rules for it.
The rules were provided for a time in a magazine which was available at the time of purchase, to publicise the new release. At some time afterwards (I have no idea how long to be honest) the rules appeared in a pdf file on the Games Workshop website, so that those who, for whatever reason, did not or could not purchase White Dwarf could still use this newly released model.

Is anybody spotting a breaking of the pattern? At some point in the past, after purchasing a Core Rule Book (possibly multiple times), an army book (possibly multiple times) and your models, you could get a file for a single unit choice "for free". You have already had to pay for your stuff. If you think that it's acceptable for additional core rules to now come with an added cost to the already overly expensive rulebook, army book and models, you're an idiot.

Omniassiah
20-02-2013, 12:23
How about from the GW website as a free PDF?
(http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1640390a_NightSpinner_Rules.pdf)

Concerning the new book, quite frankly all of its content should really have been on the website as a pdf.

Fair enough Though I looked before I posted that I missed it on the side. It is a perfect example of what they should do with such units released in-between codexes.


The store should just stop stocking GW altogether if they feel that strongly about it. Otherwise I just see that's as an attempted publicity stunt for them.
In all fairness its a better idea to attempt to convert your existing customers and then stop buying any more then to burn your existing customers... something that GW seems to do pretty well.

Reinholt
20-02-2013, 12:49
This whole topic seems a bit... over-argued, shall we say?

To go back to the core points:

1 - It's poor business practice to make it more difficult for your customers to buy your stuff. Limited print run, direct only, sold out book containing the only official rules for expensive models with large profit margins? That's just dumb business. Either give the rules away for free on the website, or put them in the box. I have a hard time believing that GW, which repeatedly claims to be a model company, is going to make the majority of money off their rules (which, to be blunt, are a lot less good than their models).

2 - What should a customer expect? They should expect that a company delivers value if the company wants to receive their money. That's the bottom line. Everyone has a different point for that, and that's what makes a market. Because most GW locations are not in communist or strict authoritarian nations, every individual can and will make their own decision about this point. For some, buying the book is fine. For others, it's an insult. For another group, we stopped caring because we're already playing other games instead. So on and so forth. Thus, all reactions are equally valid; the task of the firm is to interpret them and figure out how to maximize long-term profit.

3 - What should independents expect? To be honest, to keep a much more watchful eye on GW than on the other producers. GW, by having a direct-only operation and retail chain, is a direct competitor to the independent store itself. Many other manufacturers are not, and do not do this. Thus, GW is both useful but threatening to independents in a way that the competition is not, and if I ran an indy, I'd be keeping a much closer watch on GW than others, and actively encouraging my customers away from GW in order to limit the damage GW could potentially do to me in the future. Granted, I'd also be pushing card games and board games (possibly more than miniature games), but that's another story.


I question how much GW unfairly compete with the indies when the current terms hardwire in up to a 25% price advantage for you over GW?

...what the?

It's the same model produced for both GW retail and indies. The COGS for GW is the same, and they will derive the same profit, from a production perspective. GW does not experience different input costs if one box subsequently goes to an indy and another goes to a retail store, and if independents are being charged a wholesale price, the retail stores should be charged the exact same wholesale price on inventory (even though it's just internal accounting) so that you aren't screwing up your corporate reporting with bogus transfer pricing issues.

The bottom line is that production profit on a model should be identical to retail or indies.

The difference comes in subsequent operations, as you then have the retail overhead if you go through that chain (high, you need a whole store) vs. the trade sales overhead if you go through that chain (very low, it's a dude with a phone). Thus what you see for GW is a RoE that is very high for production, but much lower for retail, which is why retail is the less profitable wing of the company. Interestingly, the RoE by most independents is also lower than GW production. Why? Because retail has lower margins than production across virtually all products in all industries. Thus, GW retail should be competing on identical footing with indies as they should both be charged the same wholesale costs, and similarly, then be responsible for their own overhead beyond that point.

If you're going to talk about cost advantage and pricing you should know these things. Your argument is either deliberately spurious or so uninformed as to be useless.

Somehow, you also failed to address the key point of the unfair competition complaint, which is GW only selling direct (and allowing direct orders in their stores), but refusing to sell said product to independents, which has nothing to do with COGS or wholesale margins.

buddy_revell
20-02-2013, 12:54
Compare and contrast with when the Eldar Night Spinner was released. Or the Shadowsword/Stormlord varient kits that weren't in either Apocalypse or Apocalypse Reloaded.

You buy rules for that game.
A new model comes out, and there aren't any rules for it.
The rules were provided for a time in a magazine which was available at the time of purchase, to publicise the new release. At some time afterwards (I have no idea how long to be honest) the rules appeared in a pdf file on the Games Workshop website, so that those who, for whatever reason, did not or could not purchase White Dwarf could still use this newly released model.

Is anybody spotting a breaking of the pattern? At some point in the past, after purchasing a Core Rule Book (possibly multiple times), an army book (possibly multiple times) and your models, you could get a file for a single unit choice "for free". You have already had to pay for your stuff. If you think that it's acceptable for additional core rules to now come with an added cost to the already overly expensive rulebook, army book and models, you're an idiot.
so because they gave stuff away for free once, you EXPECT them to continue to do so forever?

nah. you pay for stuff. simple.

those who bought the models HAVE had the rules for free for a time. now theres a book coming out which has, unfortunately, sold out. theyve said theyre making more.

i honestly dont see the problem.

Herzlos
20-02-2013, 12:59
The problem is paying for an overpriced book in order to use the figure. The rules have invalidated the WD updates, so the only way to play the rules is to buy this book, that's direct-order only and sold out. So how do people use it?

Kervin
20-02-2013, 13:02
The problem is paying for an overpriced book in order to use the figure. The rules have invalidated the WD updates, so the only way to play the rules is to buy this book, that's direct-order only and sold out. So how do people use it?

QFT, invalidating the WD updates with a full release codex is fine, what they are doing now is at best unethical and at worst who knows.

buddy_revell
20-02-2013, 13:02
wait for the next run and buy it if they care that much.

buddy_revell
20-02-2013, 13:03
QFT, invalidating the WD updates with a full release codex is fine, what they are doing now is at best unethical and at worst who knows.
its barely unethical. not at all.

seriously, some of you guys really need some perspective.

Reinholt
20-02-2013, 13:16
It's not a question of ethics. It's a question of consumer preference.

If you don't like what GW is doing, stop. I have. All my purchases are going to Privateer, Wyrd, and Fantasy Flight as of late. Until GW learns to behave in a customer-friendly way like some of their competitors, they get nothing.

buddy_revell
20-02-2013, 13:33
It's not a question of ethics. It's a question of consumer preference.

If you don't like what GW is doing, stop. I have. All my purchases are going to Privateer, Wyrd, and Fantasy Flight as of late. Until GW learns to behave in a customer-friendly way like some of their competitors, they get nothing.


i agree. if you dislike something, just stop doing it

weeble1000
20-02-2013, 14:21
It's not a question of ethics. It's a question of consumer preference.

If you don't like what GW is doing, stop. I have. All my purchases are going to Privateer, Wyrd, and Fantasy Flight as of late. Until GW learns to behave in a customer-friendly way like some of their competitors, they get nothing.

Exactly. I have taken the exact same stance. Years ago I politely communicated my concerns to Games Workshop and received a polite but completely useless response. Subsequently the company got worse, not better, so I communicated with my wallet and ceased purchasing Games Workshop products paired with a final polite communication to Games Workshop detailing a list of purchases of Games Workshop products I had planned to make, the prices of those items, and the products from the company's competitors which I would be purchasing with those funds.

Games Workshop knows why I stopped buying the company's products, it knows what it needs to do to regain my custom, and it knows that in the interim it has not only lost my business but lost it to the company's direct competitors.

Communications like that are the sort of thing a company should pay attention to if it wants to stay in business. There is nothing hateful or malicious about it and a responsible company would want to be provided with that sort of information.

Ravenous
20-02-2013, 16:26
Can't some stores order direct only products if they have the right trade terms?

Not at discount or in a speedy way, for some reason the shipping times are doubled in my experience in doing it.


you buy models for a game.
you buy rules for that game.
a new model comes out, and there arent any rules for it.
the rules were provided, for a time, in a patched-up FAQ or at the very least in a magazine which was available at the time of purchase.
the official rules are then released in a book which is available for sale.


is anybody spotting a pattern? at no point in this was anything "for free". you have to pay for your stuff. if you didnt expect to have to pay for stuff, youre an idiot.

I guess you missed when they posted the blood angel WD codex on their website for free, or the Eldar nightspinner, or the 30+ apocalypse articles, or... point is, they have a long history of providing rules for free when they are an Errata, next you'll say crazy things like we should pay for the FAQ.

That and there is a massive difference in (useful)content from DftS and the old chapter approved collections.

Hengist
20-02-2013, 16:43
...next you'll say crazy things like we should pay for the FAQ.

If GW thought they could get away with it, they would. And there would be shrill fanboys defending them for doing so, and decrying our 'sense of entitlement'.

Ravenous
20-02-2013, 20:02
If GW thought they could get away with it, they would. And there would be shrill fanboys defending them for doing so, and decrying our 'sense of entitlement'.

You mean whats already happening with this errata book despite having a free online resource? Madness.

buddy_revell
20-02-2013, 20:18
Not at discount or in a speedy way, for some reason the shipping times are doubled in my experience in doing it.



I guess you missed when they posted the blood angel WD codex on their website for free, or the Eldar nightspinner, or the 30+ apocalypse articles, or... point is, they have a long history of providing rules for free when they are an Errata, next you'll say crazy things like we should pay for the FAQ.

That and there is a massive difference in (useful)content from DftS and the old chapter approved collections.

yeah i remember those. but i didnt cry when the situation changed and i had to then pay for those rules. same as when i got some shadow spectres; the experimental rules were available for a time on forgeworlds site, and then they were in a book you had to pay for.

if i was that bothered about paying for my hobby, id still be playing second edition with all the codexes i already own; after all, i bought one set of rules and books, GW should give me the new rules and books for free.

they have a history of giving rules for free, FOR A TIME. after which it is available in a book, no?


like ive long said, if it bothers anyone so much, just quit, and buy yourself a football. theyd probably be happier.

Ravenous
21-02-2013, 02:05
...

Okaaaaaay.

Besides it being forgeworld, you know why they were called experimental rules right? There is a vast difference from putting something out for free and asking for feed back before you put it in a up coming book and putting something out for free as part of an add on and wont be in a codex for regular play for quite awhile. You're comparing things that dont correlate, if it was a $5 PDF I would be okay with that, this is a $40 book with 6 pages of interest.

The reality is they made a book of reprints and erratas to fix mistakes and are charging money for it, no one else in any business can really get away with that. I cant return my space marine book and say I get this + the new book content because its available in the ibook version. Even then the people that paid full price for the ibook version are being told that it will not be updated with these rules despite being meant for the book who have already bought it. You're defending bad and stupid choices as if we should accept them as acceptable appropriate behaviour and saying anything against your opinion means you should "shut up and get out".

EDIT: And you never had to pay for those rules! The nightspinner, blood angel dex and apoc stuff was available for free and never printed afterward, you're being intentionally ignorant.

Reinholt
21-02-2013, 12:21
Put a different way: Buddy, do you think it's a good idea for GW to make it harder to find the rules for their most expensive models, and make it more expensive to buy those rules when you do find them?

What impact do you expect this will have on sales and customer relations?

tristessa
22-02-2013, 08:25
Put a different way: Buddy, do you think it's a good idea for GW to make it harder to find the rules for their most expensive models, and make it more expensive to buy those rules when you do find them?

What impact do you expect this will have on sales and customer relations?

It's really not that different to having to buy a codex is it? I'm sure that when the new marine codex rolls around, all the rules will be in there.

Also, welcome to the rogue trader era! They didn't do too badly then either...

That said, it is puzzling why they've released it in the middle of a month direct only - the rules will probably appear in a white dwarf soon, just to really wind the internet up.

Herzlos
22-02-2013, 08:46
It's really not that different to having to buy a codex is it? I'm sure that when the new marine codex rolls around, all the rules will be in there.

Because it's not the same as the codex, it's an expensive additional book which is mostly irrelevant filler you'll need to order direct in order to get the half page of rules you need to use whatever expensive model. If it was a $5 supplement no-one would be bothered.

shelfunit.
22-02-2013, 09:08
Also, welcome to the rogue trader era! They didn't do too badly then either...

Incase you hadn't noticed this isn't the Rogue Trader era, we have this thing called the "internet" now and that should allow for the free provision of minor rule corrections. The next logical step after this is charging for FAQs - fancy coughing up £2.99 for each version of those? Don't complain about it though, I'm sure when the next codex rolls around all the rules will be corrected in there...

Kervin
22-02-2013, 09:14
Incase you hadn't noticed this isn't the Rogue Trader era, we have this thing called the "internet" now and that should allow for the free provision of minor rule corrections. The next logical step after this is charging for FAQs - fancy coughing up £2.99 for each version of those? Don't compain about it though, I'm sure when the next codex rolls around all the rules will be corrected in there...

Yeah it is not like this book had an FAQ up the same weekend as it came out, or anything like that. If GW starts charging for FAQ it my be cheaper to get an iPad and the eCodex (for those who still play).

tristessa
22-02-2013, 09:39
Incase you hadn't noticed this isn't the Rogue Trader era, we have this thing called the "internet" now and that should allow for the free provision of minor rule corrections. The next logical step after this is charging for FAQs - fancy coughing up £2.99 for each version of those? Don't compain about it though, I'm sure when the next codex rolls around all the rules will be corrected in there...

Yeah, it should for minor rule corrections. New models, less so. That's the sense of entitlement. Still, there will probably be a torrent that will sort you out if you don't want to pay.

I'll pay if the content is good.

shelfunit.
22-02-2013, 10:56
Yeah, it should for minor rule corrections. New models, less so. That's the sense of entitlement. Still, there will probably be a torrent that will sort you out if you don't want to pay.

I'll pay if the content is good.

Problem being that there are very few (if any) new models - these are mostly updates for current models, barely more than reprints/FAQs of/for the WD updates. You have a strange idea of what "entitlement" is.

tristessa
22-02-2013, 11:07
Problem being that there are very few (if any) new models - these are mostly updates for current models, barely more than reprints/FAQs of/for the WD updates. You have a strange idea of what "entitlement" is.

You feel entitled to have this for free. I'm not sure why this is - wheres the contract that says you should get it for nothing? If I want an army list, I have to buy the codex! If I want to play 6th edition, I have to have the rules for it. My buying Rogue Trader in 1991 didn't allow me to continue to play for the rest of my life without investing. This harks back to this crazy idea of GW being a business, in it to make money. As with the other recent internet nerd tears, the anti-GW crowd can't grasp the idea that a company might ever act out of a desire for income generation.

I don't agree with all of what GW do, but it doesn't mean I don't understand why they do it. It's called balance and it's pretty much the only reason I can be bothered to post in these threads - anyone who has a dissenting viewpoint to the anti-GW juggernaught gets jumped on by people like yourself. Your signature quote is the ultimate in irony considering all this.

If you really hate it all so much then move on to something else. Otherwise, try making an evenhanded and balanced argument - something more than "I deserve free rules/painting/gaming space/veteran support". All of those things are good, but you need to understand why they've gone.

IJW
22-02-2013, 11:17
This harks back to this crazy idea of GW being a business, in it to make money.

Yeah, the one where people want to buy models. That is, after all, the sole reason for the rules in the first place.

tristessa
22-02-2013, 11:23
That's the thing though isn't it - people want this expansion because they feel they're missing on the rules within. Rules that are optional, have been republished elsewhere or are available via forums like this.
It's a compendium - it implies a republication. When 3rd edition launched, terminator armour didn't get its 5++ save until a white dwarf article. It didn't appear in print until a compendium came along. That's how it is. People cared less then. Same for the rhino and its repair rule. Also there were the trial assault rules that GW used for their tournaments.
Remember - this is the golden age many people hark back to!

For a certain vocal part of the 'community' rules sell models and not the other way round.


I miss the days of underpowered armies full of models that gamers chose for their own tastes. I should probably freak out now and blame GW for stealing that from me because I couldn't possibly be responsible for my own gaming. There's no way I could house rule anything is there? Or create an environment that suits my tastes! GW have killed me!
Oh wait...

Chivs
22-02-2013, 11:32
If I want an army list, I have to buy the codex!

This is where the army should end. To play Orks in 40k, with any possible army available to you, you should need a rulebook, a codex and models. This should be enough! It already costs more than enough!

At present if you want to play an Ork army with an aircraft in it (and Aircraft are not an optional supplement, they are main edition rules) you need your rulebook, codex and either a White Dwarf (which may now be invalid), an ipad and the digital article (has that been updated?) or a £20 supplement.

It's a fundamental change to the minimum requirements needed to play this game. No not every army needs, or should have, a flier in it, but you shouldn't have to pay extra for this option!


This is not an optional add on like Spearhead, or Planetstrike. A campanion book with the rules for Spearhead, full or modelling articles, background material, painting guides, example armies would be a different thing. It may not work for everyone, and in some people's eyes will not be worth the price, but the key word is OPTIONAL.

GW have essentially made Death From the Skies a compulsory purchase for Ork, Space Marine, Black Templar and possibly Grey Knights, Blood Angels and Dark Eldar (I don't know how the changes work for the books with existing fliers - I can't see any references in the Dark Eldar FAQ that refer to DFTS). The FAQ for Orks says:

White Dwarf June 2012 (WD390)
Updated rules for the Ork Dakkajet, Burna-bommer and Blitzabommer
can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.

Likewise for the Space Marine FAQ:


White Dwarf June 2012 (UK WD390)
Updated rules for the Stormtalon Gunship and Stormraven
Gunship can be found in the Death From the Skies compendium.

That to me says "Screw the fact you bought a White Dwarf and codex, pay me more to use your 1 model."

And it is quite appropriate to ask "Where will this end?"
"We've modified the Nephalim Jetfighter to make it worth it's points- that'll be another £10 please if you want to use it."
"We've released 4 Cult Terminator units for Codex: Chaos. £40 for the models and £15 for the rules. (But that's only £3.75 a unit - what a bargain!)"
"Tyranids, buy this £20 book and find out which armies you can now ally with."

The book sold out. Games Workshop executives must be laughing their asses off at the collective stupidity or willingness of their consumer base to get anything that they make!

There is not a problem with releasing a book which details all the Flier rules and updates in one place. There is an issue with making it a compulsory purchase. To put it back on the initial topic, this is making compulsory purchases direct order only. That's why many of us are hanging our heads in despair.

Put the pdf files on the website. If the book doesn't have enough other content to make it worth purchasing, it shouldn't have been written. If the few pages with rules are the only parts people are buying it for, then it's essentially extortion in my eyes.

tristessa
22-02-2013, 11:38
I agree, they should FAQ the rules in. I completely agree. However, they've released compendiums of stuff before. It's not a shock. Think of it as getting the flyers for the marines and orks in advance of codexes. Remember the days of GW getting a kicking online because they didn't release things other than around codexes? Yeah, me too. This is their solution.

Don't agree with the business model but that's how it goes. They should have hit the rules up with a trial rules tag and explained that they would be refined over time. People still would have complained though.

f2k
22-02-2013, 11:50
That's the thing though isn't it - people want this expansion because they feel they're missing on the rules within. Rules that are optional, have been republished elsewhere or are available via forums like this.
It's a compendium - it implies a republication. When 3rd edition launched, terminator armour didn't get its 5++ save until a white dwarf article. It didn't appear in print until a compendium came along. That's how it is. People cared less then. Same for the rhino and its repair rule. Also there were the trial assault rules that GW used for their tournaments.
Remember - this is the golden age many people hark back to!

For a certain vocal part of the 'community' rules sell models and not the other way round.


I miss the days of underpowered armies full of models that gamers chose for their own tastes. I should probably freak out now and blame GW for stealing that from me because I couldn't possibly be responsible for my own gaming. There's no way I could house rule anything is there? Or create an environment that suits my tastes! GW have killed me!
Oh wait...

Well, no, not really...

You see, Games Workshop wouldn't just reprint the old rules. That, you see, would imply that you wouldn't need to buy the book if you had bought the original White Dwarf. So they change the rules a bit - add a new rule her, change an old rule there...

So now we have a situation where players, like me for example, who went out and bought the Ork Bomber and the White Dwarf now find that I have to buy a new rulebook to play with the model that I already bough.
Fair enough if it's the entire codex that was being replaced (though I would prefer that they didn't), but forcing me to buy a new book just to play with a single model... Now, that does stink a bit of greed... And not releasing it for general sale...? Now, that stinks quite a bit of stupidity...

shelfunit.
22-02-2013, 11:51
You feel entitled to have this for free. I'm not sure why this is - wheres the contract that says you should get it for nothing?

As the rules are already out there in some form (I don't play 40k, so this is mostly hypothetical) and I had already bought the Rule books, the codecies and the WDs with all the rules in them why should I not feel entitled to be able play the game? Suddenly an FAQ tells me that instead of the WD rules (already paid for) I have to buy another £20 book in order to use the xyz model. Like I said, you have a strange idea of what "entitlement" means.


If I want an army list, I have to buy the codex! If I want to play 6th edition, I have to have the rules for it.

Indeed, I agree. But if you already had these things and they charged for a rulebook FAQ you'd have to buy it or by your own logic not be able to play.


My buying Rogue Trader in 1991 didn't allow me to continue to play for the rest of my life without investing.

Ummm, yes it did.


This harks back to this crazy idea of GW being a business, in it to make money. As with the other recent internet nerd tears, the anti-GW crowd can't grasp the idea that a company might ever act out of a desire for income generation.

Ahhh, the real reason for your argument, and one that has time and time been answered. GW are indeed a business, they do indeed require to make money, but maybe they could do so without having to resort to charging for FAQs and minor updates.


I don't agree with all of what GW do, but it doesn't mean I don't understand why they do it. It's called balance and it's pretty much the only reason I can be bothered to post in these threads - anyone who has a dissenting viewpoint to the anti-GW juggernaught gets jumped on by people like yourself. Your signature quote is the ultimate in irony considering all this.

Descending to personal insults is rarely a good substitute for an argument, but don't let that stop you. The "anti-GW juggernught" is generally the collective given to those of us who are not overwhelmingly positive about GW and all they do. We provide reasoned arguments, basic facts and tend to recieve replies similar to yours above.


If you really hate it all so much then move on to something else.

Again the term "hate" is used with again nothing to back the claim up.


Otherwise, try making an evenhanded and balanced argument - something more than "I deserve free rules/painting/gaming space/veteran support". All of those things are good, but you need to understand why they've gone.

Here's the real irony...

Bob Hunk
22-02-2013, 12:06
"Tyranids, buy this £20 book and find out which armies you can now ally with."

Slightly OT, but I could totally buy that book! :D

Kalidane
22-02-2013, 12:29
You feel entitled to have this for free. I'm not sure why this is - wheres the contract that says you should get it for nothing? If I want an army list, I have to buy the codex! If I want to play 6th edition, I have to have the rules for it. My buying Rogue Trader in 1991 didn't allow me to continue to play for the rest of my life without investing. This harks back to this crazy idea of GW being a business, in it to make money. As with the other recent internet nerd tears, the anti-GW crowd can't grasp the idea that a company might ever act out of a desire for income generation.

If you want to play with the expensive flier you built and painted and played with until recently you must buy an additional book. From not the store you normally shop at. Which is not available anyway. If you like your hobby being interferred with in that manner then you probably don't even want to be in this thread.

Actually, buying Rogue Trader in 1991 did quite exactly allow you to continue to play for the rest of your life without investing any futher.

If you want to play something completely different, but which may permit you to use models from your existing collection, then yes you will pay. This is well understood.

GW is a business and in it to make money eh? Making money should be a consequence of actions taken in execution of a strategy - it is not a goal. Check out any super-successful company for anecdotes. And the research. Perhaps this explains why GW is other than super-successful. Perhaps the rapid growth of direct competitors is partly attributable to their eyeing other goals.

A desire for income generation is good business sense. In fact I support it so strongly that I buy all my models/paints/brushes direct from the producer wherever possible. Sure, I may have to pay 25% extra + shipping as a consequence of not shopping at online discounters but it all helps these newer companies to grow and do new things. The products still work out to be 1/4-1/2 the price of GW comparable so I don't mind. In fact I sometimes giggle uncontrollably when I think about it.


I don't agree with all of what GW do, but it doesn't mean I don't understand why they do it.
...

Is this the same as it does mean that you do understand why they do it? I hope so because:

In this subforum there is a widespread and longstanding lack of understanding of why GW make the big decisions that they do. If you have an insight into why GW takes actions that appear to be negative to their customer relations and the long term health of the firm then many here would appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks

Edit:
@shelfunit you realise this was 20 minutes I'll never see again right? You an' your pre-empting ;)

tristessa
22-02-2013, 12:31
Well, no, not really...

You see, Games Workshop wouldn't just reprint the old rules. That, you see, would imply that you wouldn't need to buy the book if you had bought the original White Dwarf. So they change the rules a bit - add a new rule her, change an old rule there...

So now we have a situation where players, like me for example, who went out and bought the Ork Bomber and the White Dwarf now find that I have to buy a new rulebook to play with the model that I already bough.
Fair enough if it's the entire codex that was being replaced (though I would prefer that they didn't), but forcing me to buy a new book just to play with a single model... Now, that does stink a bit of greed... And not releasing it for general sale...? Now, that stinks quite a bit of stupidity...

I'd allow you to play me with the WD rules, or even with a set of rules you found on Warseer that give you the changes from this book.



Is this the same as it does mean that you do understand why they do it? I hope so because:

In this subforum there is a widespread and longstanding lack of understanding of why GW make the big decisions that they do. If you have an insight into why GW takes actions that appear to be negative to their customer relations and the long term health of the firm then many here would appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks

I think I stated this in another thread so this is the abridged version of that - the business is designed to shift toy soldiers. the company (for right or wrong) sees that introducing and turning over a great number of starters is the best way to do this. Retail is set up to bring people into the hobby, exploit their first year and then move them on to stand for themselves. The business model measures these - the KPIs in retail are based on intro games to boxed game sales. There's a stat that someone in their first year of the hobby will spend four times more than a veteran gamer over the year (or something like that). The hobby is largely designed for children and young people who have parent supplied-disposable income. GW knows those kids will drift off and discover drink and girls as they get older, so the push to always recruit is at the forefront.

Now that is quite cynical, and completely opposed to how GW was run back in the beginning, but it's a model that they've had success with. The investments in industrial production and supply, along with the presence in most towns and cities makes them a pretty good example of British success. However, no matter how cynical that all is, there is still an olive branch to the veteran gamer with the WHW events and of course, Forge World. Forge World is everything people want GW to be - open, up front and rules support. However, if it suited the aim of recruiting new people in, they'd can FW tomorrow. The bottom line is money - shareholders want pay outs. GW have a duty to them to do it.

I think many people overthink GW - they want your money. THEY WANT YOUR MONEY AND DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. It's good to enjoy what they do but remember that there are other games/hobbies out there - AND THOSE COMPANIES WANT YOUR MONEY AND DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE, no matter how much you feel they might be different.

f2k
22-02-2013, 12:52
I'd allow you to play me with the WD rules, or even with a set of rules you found on Warseer that give you the changes from this book.

You might. And so might others (and I wouldn't really have any trouble with it either) but what if I want to play in a Games Workshop store or go to a tournament?

For better or worse, Games Workshop has invalidated the old, freely available, rules with a new set of official rules that you must pay for.



I think I stated this in another thread so this is the abridged version of that - the business is designed to shift toy soldiers. the company (for right or wrong) sees that introducing and turning over a great number of starters is the best way to do this. Retail is set up to bring people into the hobby, exploit their first year and then move them on to stand for themselves. The business model measures these - the KPIs in retail are based on intro games to boxed game sales. There's a stat that someone in their first year of the hobby will spend four times more than a veteran gamer over the year (or something like that). The hobby is largely designed for children and young people who have parent supplied-disposable income. GW knows those kids will drift off and discover drink and girls as they get older, so the push to always recruit is at the forefront.

Now that is quite cynical, and completely opposed to how GW was run back in the beginning, but it's a model that they've had success with. The investments in industrial production and supply, along with the presence in most towns and cities makes them a pretty good example of British success. However, no matter how cynical that all is, there is still an olive branch to the veteran gamer with the WHW events and of course, Forge World. Forge World is everything people want GW to be - open, up front and rules support. However, if it suited the aim of recruiting new people in, they'd can FW tomorrow. The bottom line is money - shareholders want pay outs. GW have a duty to them to do it.

I think many people overthink GW - they want your money. THEY WANT YOUR MONEY AND DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. It's good to enjoy what they do but remember that there are other games/hobbies out there - AND THOSE COMPANIES WANT YOUR MONEY AND DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE, no matter how much you feel they might be different.

I actually mostly agree with you except for the bolded. Games Workshop is bleeding players left and right and is, at least in mainland Europe, heavily pressed by other companies. But that's probably best left for the price-thread, lest we want to get whacked with the Banhammer.

ehlijen
22-02-2013, 12:56
People realise that as per GWs release model, the only alternatives to something like Death from the Skies for new unit rules would have been waiting for a new codex for years or getting a new hardcover, full price codex now but with no changes other than this new unit?

Baragash
22-02-2013, 13:02
The bottom line is money - shareholders want pay outs. GW have a duty to them to do it.

Not necessarily. No they don't. ("Fiduciary Duty" must be second only to "Shareholders run the company" in corporate myths widely propogated on wargames websites).


I think many people overthink GW - they want your money. THEY WANT YOUR MONEY AND DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE. It's good to enjoy what they do but remember that there are other games/hobbies out there - AND THOSE COMPANIES WANT YOUR MONEY AND DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE, no matter how much you feel they might be different.

If only that were true.

Reinholt
22-02-2013, 14:35
You feel entitled to have this for free.

No. Stop it. No.

You are wrong. It's not entitlement. You know what I feel entitled to?

1 - Spending my money in whatever way I please, so long as its legal.
2 - Throwing my thoughts around as one of the few people on this board who has probably ever run a decently sized business or company.


I'm not sure why this is - wheres the contract that says you should get it for nothing?

Where is the contract that says GW should get any of my money?

This is not a contractual relationship; GW is not obligated to do what customers want, and customers are not obligated to do what GW wants.

What strikes me as strange and irrational about your response is the following:

1 - Customers are openly saying they don't appreciate this conduct and it feels like gouging. This means either the company can stop, or it can accept that it's creating ill-will and will have less customers. Is a one-off PDF of reprinted rules so important to GW's profits and short-term survival that they want to burn bridges?

2 - GW is a model production company, at the core. They make the majority of their money on selling models. Thus, to some extent, the rules should be thought of as a way to sell models. To that end, they probably make larger profits giving this away for free and getting people excited than they do by charging them for it and irritating them.

It's puzzling business conduct that's indicative of a firm being run by amateurs who don't understand management and strategy. People should be annoyed by this, just like I'd be annoyed if Ford suddenly decided to sell you a car without wheels and then expected you to pay 15k extra for them, especially when all their competitors don't do that.


This harks back to this crazy idea of GW being a business, in it to make money. As with the other recent internet nerd tears, the anti-GW crowd can't grasp the idea that a company might ever act out of a desire for income generation.

Except that they are a poorly run business that is failing to maximize their profit. As much as GW mildly offends me as a gamer (and not really that much), it deeply offends me as a business person. It's like someone being given a tree that has money for leaves, and they cut it down to build a bench out of it.

There's a big difference between being profit motivated and being profit stupid. GW has done a poor job looking out for the long-term health of the company and maximizing the value to the shareholders, which is their obligation (as people seem to often misunderstand in favor of the belief that shoveling small amounts of cash out the door to shareholders while subsequently imploding the company, so that shareholders picked up 15% gains on their dividend payouts and then a 100% loss on principal when the company implodes, is somehow what management is supposed to do).

Also, let's be clear about what GW is:

GW is a comprehensive model and gaming company. The rules exist to facilitate interactions between people with the models. Thus, to say the rules have no value or "make them up yourselves" misses the point - most of the appeal of GW lies in the commonality of the rules across people who have never met before. I don't want to have to design a new game every time I meet someone to play something, and if I'm less concerned about commonality, there are better rules sets already out there I can use.

So to that end, the rules matter. A lot. Especially in not being bad (I don't think it matters that GW rules are good, so much as just being at least average) and being easily accessible to everyone. A limited print run book that invalidates older stuff and makes it harder for people to get the rules for their own stuff screws up everything that has commercial value about the GW rules.


People realise that as per GWs release model, the only alternatives to something like Death from the Skies for new unit rules would have been waiting for a new codex for years or getting a new hardcover, full price codex now but with no changes other than this new unit?

The answer to this is to fix the release model.

Inquisitor Engel
22-02-2013, 19:34
I should like to point out that the Storm Talon was added in a free update to the iPad version of the Space Marine Codex... Some time ago actually. Not sure if the Storm Raven has made it in yet.

Mastodon
22-02-2013, 19:35
Got to take a look at the book today. The rules are exactly the same as the faq for the Storm Talon and Bomma just after 6th came out. If you'd got that before they changed it for the faq that just says 'look in death from the skies' you're fine.

Much ado about nothing.

Inquisitor Engel
22-02-2013, 19:44
I have confirmed that yes, both the inclusion of the Storm Raven AND the Storm Talon points decrease both were added to the iPad version of the SM Codex. How very modern.

Verm1s
22-02-2013, 21:11
If you'd got that before they changed it for the faq that just says 'look in death from the skies' you're fine.

And if you hadn't got that...?

Kalidane
22-02-2013, 22:46
...

I actually mostly agree with you except for the bolded. Games Workshop is bleeding players left and right and is, at least in mainland Europe, heavily pressed by other companies. But that's probably best left for the price-thread, lest we want to get whacked with the Banhammer.

I agree with the same.

So we all agree GW have focussed their sales efforts on recruitment and maximising sales during that phase of the hobbyist lifecycle. Whilst textbooks and experience have something to say about cost of acquisition vs retention we will just move on.

GW stores being big and carrying everything is shifting to the opposite. A physical venue where you can order online via their kiosk and some product is conveniently on hand to be bought immediately. Staff focus is on getting the new kid to basecoat his minis and play a few 1000pt games then get out.

Indie retailers have the ability to provide for gamers a lot further through their hobby lifecycle. A club-like venue, scheduled gaming, painting classes, monthly mini tournaments with small prizes etc. Anything you can imagine. Indies are able to not just introduce newbies to a game but engage with gamers indefinitely.

This means more unit sales for GW with no effort. At all. Volumes are critical in plastics. So this is a very good thing.

GW have chosen a different vector wherein indies are leeches (or whatever the quote is) and customers should buy direct from GW. Indies are in the way of GW capturing the retail margin whilst offering nothing in return. But if indies feel it isn't worth their time to support a game system and model range because there is nothing in it for them, then the ecosystem changes and the 40k gamer now walks in to the store to see everyone playing other games. No table for you buddy. So he spends on the system he can regularly play with.

Indies are valuable to GW. GW doesn't agree. It seems like we may see clues this year to figure out who is correct on that.

Omniassiah
22-02-2013, 23:47
No. Stop it. No.
My Edit: Lots of great stuff

As one of the other people on this thread that has run a business in the 8 figure range it pains me as well to see GW do this from a Business stand point. The thing that GW is doing like Reinholt said is chasing down every last cent they can even if it means they miss the $100 dollar bill that blows away. I'm sure they made money off of this book, but I am just as sure that they have successfully pissed off quite a few people as well and that hurts A LOT. Three general rules of thumbs in the business world:

First, for every 6-10 dollars you spend recruiting a new player it would take only 1 dollar to keep an existing one.
Second, A happy customer will tell 3 other people about his experience, an unhappy customer will tell 27.
Third, It takes a series of events to build a good reputation, but only one bad experience to get a bad reputation.

This book fails at all 3. First, letting the rules be a free PDF will mean that you will lose some profit from the sale of the book, but helps makes vets happy and helps make it cheaper for a new person to become a customer. Now for the second one if your from England then GW is thankfully(for them) insulated a bit because of the near monopoly with their stores, outside of the UK, and especially in the US the talk you hear about GW in stores is mostly negative. Now for the bad experience the needing to spend $40 on a $33 book because they won't ship it to retailers is a bad experience for some people. The key thing is that it doesn't even have to BE a bad experience it just needs to be PERCEIVED to be a bad experience, or worse another persons bad experience(see rule 2).

ehlijen
23-02-2013, 01:34
For better or worse, Games Workshop has invalidated the old, freely available, rules with a new set of official rules that you must pay for.


When were they ever free? The rules in question were released in the WD, which you are supposed to buy and now in this book, which you are supposed to buy. Incomplete stats were posted in the GW store, but only included the vehicle stats, not the new stats for the weapons they carried.

The complete Talon and Dakkajet rules were never available for free legally.


1 - Customers are openly saying they don't appreciate this conduct and it feels like gouging. This means either the company can stop, or it can accept that it's creating ill-will and will have less customers. Is a one-off PDF of reprinted rules so important to GW's profits and short-term survival that they want to burn bridges?

People are free to declare it not worth the money (and it isn't, in my opinion), but if they make incorrect claims (such as the rules supposedly having been free once) or unrealistic demands, they should expect to have those called out.
And this free pdf would be a signal that WD content will be free if you just wait long enough. GW seems to have decided (possibly incorrectly) that giving something away for free that they once sold as 'exclusive content in the WD' would be damaging to WD sales.


2 - GW is a model production company, at the core. They make the majority of their money on selling models. Thus, to some extent, the rules should be thought of as a way to sell models. To that end, they probably make larger profits giving this away for free and getting people excited than they do by charging them for it and irritating them.

That's possible, but by no means guaranteed. GW's policy for a while now has been to sell rules, not give them away for free.


It's puzzling business conduct that's indicative of a firm being run by amateurs who don't understand management and strategy. People should be annoyed by this, just like I'd be annoyed if Ford suddenly decided to sell you a car without wheels and then expected you to pay 15k extra for them, especially when all their competitors don't do that.

GW sees it more as selling you a complete car and charging you extra for the trailer. You don't need the rules to have a cool model. And you don't actually need the model to have a game with the rules (though that part GW won't admit). Both are better, but seperate products and so are sold seperately.




Also, let's be clear about what GW is:

GW is a comprehensive model and gaming company. The rules exist to facilitate interactions between people with the models. Thus, to say the rules have no value or "make them up yourselves" misses the point - most of the appeal of GW lies in the commonality of the rules across people who have never met before. I don't want to have to design a new game every time I meet someone to play something, and if I'm less concerned about commonality, there are better rules sets already out there I can use.

So to that end, the rules matter. A lot. Especially in not being bad (I don't think it matters that GW rules are good, so much as just being at least average) and being easily accessible to everyone. A limited print run book that invalidates older stuff and makes it harder for people to get the rules for their own stuff screws up everything that has commercial value about the GW rules.

I'm not sure a minor points decrease counts as 'invalidated'. You can still use them in games using the WD rules; they function. But if you want the newest rules (possibly for a tournament), you need the newest book. The codex release schedule has always worked this way.



The answer to this is to fix the release model.

Sure, and depending what they'd fix it to I'd support that. But the codices are the release model that has served them since 2nd ed. The reason people are up in arms here is that GW tried deviating from it. The Talon and Dakkajet were released outside the codex system and that somehow seems to have created the impression that their rules should be free. These rules are a GW product, and according to their strategy one seperate from the models; so they charge for them. They should charge less, of course.

schmoozies
23-02-2013, 03:08
When were they ever free? The rules in question were released in the WD, which you are supposed to buy and now in this book, which you are supposed to buy. Incomplete stats were posted in the GW store, but only included the vehicle stats, not the new stats for the weapons they carried.

Sure, and depending what they'd fix it to I'd support that. But the codices are the release model that has served them since 2nd ed. The reason people are up in arms here is that GW tried deviating from it. The Talon and Dakkajet were released outside the codex system and that somehow seems to have created the impression that their rules should be free. These rules are a GW product, and according to their strategy one seperate from the models; so they charge for them. They should charge less, of course.



Past precedent the Night Spinner rules were originally released in White Dwarf, when that issues was out of stock and no longer available they appeared as a free PDF on the GW web site. If you dig you can still find it there today. Same thing when they updated the Blood Angels and Warriors of Chaos in White Dwarf as a hold over until they got new codex. Shadowsword rules not in the Apocalype book, came out as White Dwarf rules and on website when the issue was out of print. Time and again they've followed this pattern until now. We still don't have official rules for the Sisters if you don't own the White Dwarf issues they came out in and this is a "core" army that every player should have access to play if they wish. It is just poor business that discourages players from investing in these units and builds bad will amongst the veterans which should be the building block that the company is founded on. Churn and burn only works while it is the in fad. Look at games like Pokemon and Yugi Oh the popularity goes in waves and as kids move on from one you don't always have the tide coming back (try and find Digimon now). Yes a newbie spends $1500 in their first 2 years and a vet only spends $400 a year but that veteran will continue to purchase for what 10-15 years if you treat them right and if you don't discourage the newbie and drive them away as they gain experience they switch into that vet category and guess what they continue to spend that $400 a year. GW has to get over this obsession with getting in the new kids a tthe expense of the veterans and find the happy balance between the two. Releasing an expansion which lets face it in the current 6th ed flyer dominated environment is a must purchase and only directly through their sight is a joke. And for everyone saying that its only $30 ($40 for me here in Canada) you also have to factor in shipping charges (for me and extra $20) so now I'm looking at $60.00 for an expansion book to use models that I already own and yes already have rules for Via White Dwarf. I'm sorry that is just too much for me.

Mastodon
23-02-2013, 05:42
As one of the other people on this thread that has run a business in the 8 figure range it pains me as well to see GW do this from a Business stand point. The thing that GW is doing like Reinholt said is chasing down every last cent they can even if it means they miss the $100 dollar bill that blows away. I'm sure they made money off of this book, but I am just as sure that they have successfully pissed off quite a few people as well and that hurts A LOT. Three general rules of thumbs in the business world:

First, for every 6-10 dollars you spend recruiting a new player it would take only 1 dollar to keep an existing one.
Second, A happy customer will tell 3 other people about his experience, an unhappy customer will tell 27.
Third, It takes a series of events to build a good reputation, but only one bad experience to get a bad reputation.

This book fails at all 3. First, letting the rules be a free PDF will mean that you will lose some profit from the sale of the book, but helps makes vets happy and helps make it cheaper for a new person to become a customer. Now for the second one if your from England then GW is thankfully(for them) insulated a bit because of the near monopoly with their stores, outside of the UK, and especially in the US the talk you hear about GW in stores is mostly negative. Now for the bad experience the needing to spend $40 on a $33 book because they won't ship it to retailers is a bad experience for some people. The key thing is that it doesn't even have to BE a bad experience it just needs to be PERCEIVED to be a bad experience, or worse another persons bad experience(see rule 2).

How many 8 figure wargames business's have you run?

Shadey
23-02-2013, 06:07
All his points apply to general marketing. Certainly experience running a wargames business could provide better context, but his points seem logical enough and congruent with established human psychology and purchasing trends that should at least in part, transfer over.

xxRavenxx
23-02-2013, 08:00
How many 8 figure wargames business's have you run?

There is a philosophy in business. Managementalism, or somesuch. (Ive spent 5 minutes staring at the screen trying to remember the right word...)

The idea is that management does not need to be niched to an industry because you're dealing in resources. So for example, while a bakery it would be cash, ingredients, the bakers and the finished pies. In a hospital it would be cash, medicine, doctors, and sick people.

In each instance, the manager doesn't even need exact knowledge of his product, because his bakers/doctors can inform him how that works, and he can just do the organising related to it.


On the one hand, this means that omnissiah and Reinholdt's experience in one company has lots of scope to translate directly to a gaming company. On the other, it shows a lot of the problems GW deal with by being a company running in an odd market area, and trying to apply normal principles.


Something to also remember with the games industry is this: The companies, all of them, every last one: Are weird. They all do something unfathomable to people looking from the outside. Something which damages themselves slightly but they insist is the right thing to do. I guess its the nature of a company run by a gamer :P

Finnigan2004
23-02-2013, 11:52
Having followed this thread and others in GW general for a while, it seems to me that most of the people defending GW's practices tend to be European and often British. Those that are deriding their practices tend to be North American or Australian. I think that in other parts of the world, we're looking at a nearly dead canary and saying, "There's gas in this here coal mine". People that are sitting at the heart of GW's power structure in Britain are saying, "There's no gas-- everything's fine here."

We should make no mistake though, there are getting to be large areas where GW had a virtual monopoly on fantasy toy soldiers that it is actually hard to find a game of warhammer in. They need to look at their business practices and reevaluate. A few years ago, gaming stores would have been afraid to annoy the GW juggernaut. Nowadays, even my local independent pushes people toward Privateer. They make more money and according to the manager, other gaming companies are way easier to deal with (and have better margins). This is compounded by the fact that even their staff have trouble telling people that The Hobbit is worth $150.00 or a 104 pg. codex is worth $60.00 plus tax. Make no mistake, they will sell it to you, if you want it, but they do push people toward other systems. The ridiculously overpriced stuff like the $100.00 monster for the chaos codex or vampire counts blood knights are not stocked on the shelves because they often can't sell it. The most overpriced stuff is special order only now.

GW North America needs to find itself some competent management, whether those people are gamers or not. The signs are there that they are in big trouble-- gaming stores thumbing their noses at them, declining numbers of gamers playing their games (I've even noticed that warhammer events have been cut from many large gaming expos and replaced by warmahordes and sometimes flames of war), prices that seem to be determined with a dartboard and a fifth of scotch, etc.. I for one, hope that they can pull it out because I'm not much on 40k, and would love to see warhammer enjoy a renaissance.

weeble1000
23-02-2013, 13:43
I for one, hope that they can pull it out because I'm not much on 40k, and would love to see warhammer enjoy a renaissance.

Not to be crass, but if you want to enjoy Warhammer, GW does not need to pull it out. Warhammer will be around for a lot longer than GW. It is a popular fictional universe with a large base of fans. Most of the artists and game designers that actually made Warhammer what it is no longer work for GW, but are still active in the wargaming industry, often as freelancers. The best thing for a Warhammer "Renaissance" may actually be the decline and ultimate failure of Games Workshop.

Verm1s
23-02-2013, 15:57
How many 8 figure wargames business's have you run?

How many of my questions have you answered?


Having followed this thread and others in GW general for a while, it seems to me that most of the people defending GW's practices tend to be European and often British. Those that are deriding their practices tend to be North American or Australian. I think that in other parts of the world, we're looking at a nearly dead canary and saying, "There's gas in this here coal mine". People that are sitting at the heart of GW's power structure in Britain are saying, "There's no gas-- everything's fine here."

Okay; just so long as you realise that 'Brit posters in GW general tending to defend GW' =/= 'every Brit GW or general fantasy gamer'. :p


It is a popular fictional universe

But is Finnigan talking about the universe, or the game? ;)

weeble1000
23-02-2013, 17:55
But is Finnigan talking about the universe, or the game? ;)

A reasonable assumption would be the universe. The game is already out in the world, nothing can take it away. In all of its 8 versions, it exists. GW HQ could be turned into a pillar of salt tomorrow and all 8 editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battles could still be played and enjoyed. The people who designed the game are still out there, producing new game rules for mass fantasy battle games.

The game and the universe are also to a large extent bound together tightly if one is talking about it in the context of wargaming. I expect that Finnigan wants to see Warhammer become popular and widely played again, with new exciting things being done in terms of the artwork, the miniatures, the fluff, and the game rules. So really, it does not really profit one to try to draw too fine a distinction. All of the various components have a reciprocal relationship, not that GW seems to care much about that in a business sense.

Verm1s
23-02-2013, 19:07
A reasonable assumption would be the universe. The game is already out in the world, nothing can take it away. In all of its 8 versions, it exists. GW HQ could be turned into a pillar of salt tomorrow and all 8 editions of Warhammer Fantasy Battles could still be played and enjoyed.

Quite a lot of people know this, but I'd hazard that quite a lot more are dependent on being drip-fed by GW, especially if past topics and posts in GW general are anything to go by. Couple that with the wider gaming trend that sudden cut-off of all official support, no matter how well a game is written, doesn't usually make that game much more popular and widespread; and there are much better games than Warhammer that died a death.
IMO the universe is generally fine (needs a bit of judicious pruning maybe), it's the game that needs a renaissance.


The people who designed the game are still out there, producing new game rules for mass fantasy battle games.

This doesn't quite mesh with your next line. The rules they're producing are not warhammer, and don't use warhammer's background or models. Cue the drip-fed fans again. How many of the old designers will flock back for the chance to work on Warhammer if GW goes under, even if the game gets bought up by another company?

(And personally I can only think of Alessio and Kings of War. What other fantasy games are the old guys working on?)


The game and the universe are also to a large extent bound together tightly if one is talking about it in the context of wargaming.

I would quite like to have armies of ogres fighting out of The Moot and hordes of Skaven scuttling across the tabletop towards Nuln; but I wouldn't touch any Warhammer core rulebook with a ten-foot bleach-soaked pole. :p Granted, this puts me in a minority of Warhammer (background) fans, but I'd guess I've still got plenty of company in this little Venn circle.


I expect that Finnigan wants to see Warhammer become popular and widely played again, with new exciting things being done in terms of the artwork, the miniatures, the fluff, and the game rules.

Agreed! Particularly that last bit.


So really, it does not really profit one to try to draw too fine a distinction. All of the various components have a reciprocal relationship...

Disagreed! If I want to recreate any 'historical' or speculative battle in the Warhammer World, that doesn't automatically confine me to using GW's models or rules. (Not in itself, but the likelihood of me gaming in a GW shop or event is hovering about 0) Similarly, if I think GW makes pretty decent ratmen models that doesn't stop me from using them against Aquilonians, Lankhmarians, or any number of non-GW peoples and settings. And lastly, GW itself - or a small offshoot - 'til recently, used the Warhammer rules for a certain wild 'n' woolly setting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Ancient_Battles).

Many gamers take pieces of 'Warhammer' as they see fit, for their own personal games and projects. Hang around a few general gaming forums for a while, rather than GW fan forums. The only ways I can see that 'don't profit to draw too fine a distinction' are in GW's own marketing, and in the rationalisations of the same drip-fed fans - the poor conditioned masochists who constantly say "I've spent too much money to stop playing Warhammer".

Finnigan2004
23-02-2013, 21:31
Not to be crass, but if you want to enjoy Warhammer, GW does not need to pull it out. Warhammer will be around for a lot longer than GW. It is a popular fictional universe with a large base of fans. Most of the artists and game designers that actually made Warhammer what it is no longer work for GW, but are still active in the wargaming industry, often as freelancers. The best thing for a Warhammer "Renaissance" may actually be the decline and ultimate failure of Games Workshop.

In a sense, you are right. I don't really care who pulls them out of their nose dive, as long as someone does. It would be cool if opponents for the game were more common than unicorns.

Kalidane
23-02-2013, 23:39
...

Many gamers take pieces of 'Warhammer' as they see fit, for their own personal games and projects. Hang around a few general gaming forums for a while, rather than GW fan forums. The only ways I can see that 'don't profit to draw too fine a distinction' are in GW's own marketing, and in the rationalisations of the same drip-fed fans - the poor conditioned masochists who constantly say "I've spent too much money to stop playing Warhammer".

(my bold above)

That sounds a heck of a lot like "i've put up with being kicked in the nuts too many times to stop being kicked in the nuts".

ehlijen
23-02-2013, 23:57
(my bold above)

That sounds a heck of a lot like "i've put up with being kicked in the nuts too many times to stop being kicked in the nuts".

Yep, it's a variant of the war movie trope "Think of all the men who died for this mission already, let's make their sacrifice mean something by diving headfirst into the meatrgr...urghs".

It's a common thing, actually. People sometimes just refuse to understand that spent money/lost lives/wasted resources are gone already but instead decide that if they spend/waste/lose more to achieve the original goal, they'll somehow magically come out ahead in the end.

Omniassiah
24-02-2013, 00:08
How many 8 figure wargames business's have you run?

As other people have pointed out, I don't need to run a Wargames business to know that pissing off my customers and giving them bad experiences will get you know where. You want an example of how that works look at Rackham and At-43, sure the game was generally well liked but there were so many bad experiences with it people just gave up. Now GW has 2 advantages to it that Rackham didn't. A large customer base and in the case of the UK an almost monopoly on Wargaming presence. With their stores they are able to insulate new recruits from the bad experiences of others, in the US and else where they don't have that option. Now, you **** off your customers from either a real bad experience or from a PERCEIVED bad experience and instead of new customers showing up to a store and hearing good things they start hearing bad things. This does and will turn off new customers as well as lose the sales from older customers. And that means it takes even more money to bring those new customers into the hobby which is a bad thing for the company. Doing little goodwill gestures is almost a universal fact of doing business. the reason for it is that though it is an expense, and can be quite an expense, it is worth every dime later on as people will remember them. Assuming you don't screw the pooch royally.

So this really all boils down to the question: What do you think that exempts GW from having to have good relations to its customers?

I'll also add when was the last good will gesture that you have seen from GW?

Reinholt
24-02-2013, 00:43
There is a philosophy in business. Managementalism, or somesuch. (Ive spent 5 minutes staring at the screen trying to remember the right word...)

The idea is that management does not need to be niched to an industry because you're dealing in resources. So for example, while a bakery it would be cash, ingredients, the bakers and the finished pies. In a hospital it would be cash, medicine, doctors, and sick people.

In each instance, the manager doesn't even need exact knowledge of his product, because his bakers/doctors can inform him how that works, and he can just do the organising related to it.

To be fair, there's a certain amount of knowledge that is generalizable, but there is a lot that is not. If you abstract things too far, you lose sight of the fact that not all cows are spherical and frictionless, so to speak.

By which I mean, not everything works the same in all industries. With that said, there are groups of industries where things tend to work similarly, so when I hear people talk about wargaming as though it's some kind of unique snowflake, I'm reminded of the arguments I heard about how the mortgage insurers were some kind of unique snowflake that could never experience insurance losses (as, at the time, I was criticizing them for doing things that would have gotten them into all kinds of trouble in other insurance spaces). 2008 happens, and suddenly they aren't unique little snowflakes. Reality always intrudes, it's just a matter of time.

Wargaming works a lot like any other kind of socially networked product, and if you know how those work, you can apply it to wargaming.


On the one hand, this means that omnissiah and Reinholdt's experience in one company has lots of scope to translate directly to a gaming company. On the other, it shows a lot of the problems GW deal with by being a company running in an odd market area, and trying to apply normal principles.

Something to also remember with the games industry is this: The companies, all of them, every last one: Are weird. They all do something unfathomable to people looking from the outside. Something which damages themselves slightly but they insist is the right thing to do. I guess its the nature of a company run by a gamer :P

The fact that poor management is systemic in the gaming industry is not an excuse for continued poor management. It's actually an argument for good management; any company that could put it together completely from all angles could dominate the industry, crush the competition, make customers happy, and make truckloads of money for investors. The best industries to get rich in are those where the competition is weak, after all.


Yep, it's a variant of the war movie trope "Think of all the men who died for this mission already, let's make their sacrifice mean something by diving headfirst into the meatrgr...urghs".

It's a common thing, actually. People sometimes just refuse to understand that spent money/lost lives/wasted resources are gone already but instead decide that if they spend/waste/lose more to achieve the original goal, they'll somehow magically come out ahead in the end.

The technical term is the sunk cost fallacy. Once something is expended, it cannot be retrieved, and thus decisions should be made from the point of analysis; as in, what is my forward probability of success? The losses have already been incurred whether you continue or not.

Hengist
24-02-2013, 00:53
Warhammer is so generic a fantasy setting that it wouldn't (or rather shouldn't) matter to the game whether or not GW supports it. There are umpteen fantasy mass battle rulessets out there (Kings of War, God of Battles, Rag'narok, DBM, Hordes of the Things, to name just a few) which are no worse in design (and in some cases significantly better, or I should say better-regarded) than Warhammer, just as there are innumerable miniatures manufacturers (Perry, Warlord, Mantic, Avatars of War, Raging Heroes, CMON, etc.) who can provide medieval and fantasy miniatures of (or at least around) GW's scale. (Not to mention the fact that GW's 'recruit not retain' commercial imperatives for the last decade or more ensure that eBay would remain well-stocked with Citadel miniatures for another decade at least.)

As long as the most prominent fantasy wargame system remains one so antiquated and flawed as Warhammer, I see no renaissance for the genre, only a continuing dark age.

Thuggrim
24-02-2013, 13:25
You need it if you want to field flyers - period. Just checked out the February FAQ for Orks and it contains the paragraph:

So the old White Dwarf rules aren't even official anymore...

No you don't, you can use whatever rules you want to game outside of GW - oh wait they don't do tournaments anymore and unless your begining you cannot game in store. After recent releases I refuse to buy a GW product I cannot see and in the case of a book persue so as far as I am concerned it doesn't exist. Don't do tournaments so not needed by any stretch.

Update from my understanding is WD article plus errata to bring em in line with 6th, from the old FAQ another classic use a careful wording to suggest one thing and mean another. Beside remember they are pushing the rules just being a framework - their argument to avoid balancing the game, works for ignoring their rules - nothing is offical now they removed the chapter approved.

As for the hobby stores - they feel that they are being given the brown smelly end of the stick by GW - can't fault them for it. If its a great business decision I don't know but warmachine/hordes is a good game if you like the style of play. Also PP are a company that operate in a superior way to my view. Only time will tell how this works out for them.

Thuggrim
24-02-2013, 13:49
And this free pdf would be a signal that WD content will be free if you just wait long enough. GW seems to have decided (possibly incorrectly) that giving something away for free that they once sold as 'exclusive content in the WD' would be damaging to WD sales.

Rumours are WD will no longer contain content. In addition if they wanted it to sell well producing a magazine with content rather than the abomination it has become would be the way to go.

I personnally don't have an issue with buying the rules, when WD had content and published annual with updates and faqs I brought them even though I was subbed to WD. Ofc they were more reasonably priced.

My issue is it is only viable by direct and over the last year the validity and accuracy of product description on their website is poor, often being vague or 'legally' misleading as to content. As such I will not buy a GW publication I cannot browse first.

There treatment of indy stores, that have historically support their business growth - in fact now they do considerably more to support GWs customer base that GW does.

TO put a perspective on this, when I worked in a GW we had local indy store, we never struggled to retain sales despite them offering discounted rates. However on a recent release a local indy out sold the GW by a factor of approx 12 to one.

Mastodon
24-02-2013, 20:10
The Warriors of the Dale for the hobbit have the rules included in the box since they're not in the Hobbit rulebook.

Interesting.

Kijamon
25-02-2013, 08:08
Actually the rules in the WD are outdated because they released them with 5th edition rules then released 6th edition a couple of weeks later. That's why they aren't legal.

The PDF on the site updates the WD rules to 6th and the book is the rules reprinted with the updates for 6th. You don't need the book.

Why GW released the models so close to 6th edition is beyond me but I imagine they sold so well that they wanted to make some quick cash.

f2k
25-02-2013, 08:52
Actually the rules in the WD are outdated because they released them with 5th edition rules then released 6th edition a couple of weeks later. That's why they aren't legal.

The PDF on the site updates the WD rules to 6th and the book is the rules reprinted with the updates for 6th. You don't need the book.

Why GW released the models so close to 6th edition is beyond me but I imagine they sold so well that they wanted to make some quick cash.

Out of curiosity, what PDF?

Come to think of it, you do have a point with the timing. If the book was planned all along, why not time it so it got released with the new flyers?

Dr Zoidberg
25-02-2013, 08:55
Actually the rules in the WD are outdated because they released them with 5th edition rules then released 6th edition a couple of weeks later. That's why they aren't legal.

The PDF on the site updates the WD rules to 6th and the book is the rules reprinted with the updates for 6th. You don't need the book.

What PDF on the website? If you're referring to the Errata, it simply says "See Death From the Skies". So you do need the book, unless you own the digital codex.

Edit: Ninja'd.

weeble1000
25-02-2013, 17:06
The technical term is the sunk cost fallacy. Once something is expended, it cannot be retrieved, and thus decisions should be made from the point of analysis; as in, what is my forward probability of success? The losses have already been incurred whether you continue or not.

Oh boy do I tell that to my clients all of the time. "I have to have an answer by X date because at that point, the money is in and you can't get it back out." It is a source of frequent frustration. Past a certain date you can't just cancel a project and not be left with a bill. If a case settles, it settles, and unless there is a compelling reason to go through with a research project, such as other similar ongoing litigation, the right decision is to cut it off and save the remainder of the expenses. But once you get to a certain point, there will be expenses whether or not you do the project.

ehlijen
25-02-2013, 22:51
Oh boy do I tell that to my clients all of the time. "I have to have an answer by X date because at that point, the money is in and you can't get it back out." It is a source of frequent frustration. Past a certain date you can't just cancel a project and not be left with a bill. If a case settles, it settles, and unless there is a compelling reason to go through with a research project, such as other similar ongoing litigation, the right decision is to cut it off and save the remainder of the expenses. But once you get to a certain point, there will be expenses whether or not you do the project.

That actually sounds like a different issue. No less real and annoying, I'd imagine, but it sounds more like extreme buyer's remorse than pushing forward into doom out of an inability to admit a cause is lost.

Damian2142
25-02-2013, 23:09
Unfortunately they are ripping off the small guys such as independent retailers and I am extremely happy to see they are doing something like this, I would have said something along the lines of this though if I knew how to contact them
"Dear Games Workshop,
I have been a loyal customer for 10 years now and I have bought up to $50, 000 of your merchandise over the years trying to find the right army but it seems now it's just a waste of my time and money as compared to $50 for 20 troops for imperial guard you're paying double the price for exactly the same models and tank prices are excruciating alongside the price of finecast models that have too many problems.. You're essentially shooting yourself and losing thousands of potential new hobbyists due to prices.
Another problem is the actual store locations and staff numbers, I went into Campbelltown Games workshop which is the closest near me at 1pm to find the store was closed as well as only one guy returned from this lunch break only to find he is the only staff member!!! What the hell do you expect to do if someone wants gaming advice and the other wants advice on which army to buy? One is going to walk out.. You need to think about what You're doing and quick,
Sincerely, Damian" ONly if they did something like that!

Damian2142
25-02-2013, 23:12
I forgot to mention, the staff member returned an hour later.

jindianajonz
25-02-2013, 23:53
Three thoughts:
1) I think the problem with the rulebook itself is that GW has added one more thing that you have to buy if you want to play the "core" game. The flyers book isn't being marketed as an optional expansion; it is as much a part of the armies it includes rules on as anything else in the Army Codices. If GW had a bit more integrity when it comes to delivering a quality gaming experience, I may have given them the benefit of the doubt. But this stinks to me of GW testing the waters to determine how many core gaming books they can unload on their customers. Imagine if the current system were replaced by one where you had a "core" army book that covered characters, infantry, and fluff, but had to shell out another $40 for a book that covered all monstrous infantry, another $40 for cavalry, another $40 for war machines, etc. As much as I would like to write this off as a one-off experience, I doubt that it is, and supplemental books like this will become the norm.

2) While I think the idea of offering a discount on Warmachine/Hordes for a Warhammer rulebook is brilliant, I feel that flat out banning the fliers supplement is poorly thought out. The nice thing about the first option is that the only one who gets screwed over is GW- The fans get exposed to a possibly better system, and the shop is able to sell a game that is much less of a headache. With the latter, the store is punishing the fans for GW's actions. If I was told I couldn't play the game I wanted, I would just go somewhere else. Not a good way to build a rapport with your customers.

3) One of the ironies in this thread is that GW defenders are quick to bash that second store for banning the supplement, when really that is what GW have been doing for quite some time- not allowing people to use figures that can't be purchased in their store. I thought it was ****** when GW did it, and I still think its ****** when the stores do it.

Mastodon
26-02-2013, 06:06
Three thoughts:
1) I think the problem with the rulebook itself is that GW has added one more thing that you have to buy if you want to play the "core" game. The flyers book isn't being marketed as an optional expansion; it is as much a part of the armies it includes rules on as anything else in the Army Codices. If GW had a bit more integrity when it comes to delivering a quality gaming experience, I may have given them the benefit of the doubt. But this stinks to me of GW testing the waters to determine how many core gaming books they can unload on their customers. Imagine if the current system were replaced by one where you had a "core" army book that covered characters, infantry, and fluff, but had to shell out another $40 for a book that covered all monstrous infantry, another $40 for cavalry, another $40 for war machines, etc. As much as I would like to write this off as a one-off experience, I doubt that it is, and supplemental books like this will become the norm.

2) While I think the idea of offering a discount on Warmachine/Hordes for a Warhammer rulebook is brilliant, I feel that flat out banning the fliers supplement is poorly thought out. The nice thing about the first option is that the only one who gets screwed over is GW- The fans get exposed to a possibly better system, and the shop is able to sell a game that is much less of a headache. With the latter, the store is punishing the fans for GW's actions. If I was told I couldn't play the game I wanted, I would just go somewhere else. Not a good way to build a rapport with your customers.

3) One of the ironies in this thread is that GW defenders are quick to bash that second store for banning the supplement, when really that is what GW have been doing for quite some time- not allowing people to use figures that can't be purchased in their store. I thought it was ****** when GW did it, and I still think its ****** when the stores do it.

Its nothing of the sort. You LITERALLY only need this book if you have a Storm Talon/Ork Bomma and didnt get white dwarf and the updated FAQ that was up for 6 months before they changed it to say 'Check the book.' All the other rules in it are available as FAQ's online.

Please actually find out what the book is before you make a massive post complaining about GW sticking one up to you and forcing you to buy more books to play the 'core' game.

The original indies have also denied all knowledge of this stand against GW as well. Probably when they realised its a good way to go out of business.

duffybear1988
26-02-2013, 08:45
Ok so what about all the new gamers who didn't download the PDF or have a copy of the White Dwarf - they have to buy the book. £20 for 1 unit entry...

Kervin
26-02-2013, 08:54
Ok so what about all the new gamers who didn't download the PDF or have a copy of the White Dwarf - they have to buy the book. £20 for 1 unit entry...

Yup, and if you had the WD/PDF you are now out of luck as well. So you could have models you can't use at your local GW, if you did not get the book.

ehlijen
26-02-2013, 11:07
Ok so what about all the new gamers who didn't download the PDF or have a copy of the White Dwarf - they have to buy the book. £20 for 1 unit entry...

Or they can buy the iCodex instead. Or wait for the next print edition of their codex. Or they can chose to not use the unit in the game but still have a neat model in their showcase.

Chivs
26-02-2013, 11:16
Its nothing of the sort. You LITERALLY only need this book if you have a Storm Talon/Ork Bomma and didnt get white dwarf and the updated FAQ that was up for 6 months before they changed it to say 'Check the book.' All the other rules in it are available as FAQ's online.

Please actually find out what the book is before you make a massive post complaining about GW sticking one up to you and forcing you to buy more books to play the 'core' game.

The original indies have also denied all knowledge of this stand against GW as well. Probably when they realised its a good way to go out of business.

I've bought the rulebook, codex, an Ork Bommer and the white dwarf, but I didn't print out the FAQ because I haven't been able to play a game for a long time, and seriously, who removes information that's not out of date from an FAQ. So I LITERALLY need this book apparently, because the FAQ no longer tells me what has changed. Am I allowed to complain then about Games Workshop sticking one up to me and forcing me to buy more books to play the 'core' game?

Can I then also give permission and thanks to those others, even if it doesn't apply to them, who also speak out about this?


Or they can buy the iCodex instead. Or wait for the next print edition of their codex. Or they can chose to not use the unit in the game but still have a neat model in their showcase.

Orks don't have an iCodex, and they'll probably be waiting a while for the next printed one.

ehlijen
26-02-2013, 11:34
Orks don't have an iCodex, and they'll probably be waiting a while for the next printed one.

The quote I was replying to was clearly talking about units that were in the electronic codices, so I answered accordingly.

Orks still have the option if simply using the whole rest of their codex instead to make an army or using the model as a stand in for FW ork flyers.
And the waiting might well be shorter than we think; both the 3.5 Chaos and Necron codices had corrected reprints in their lifetime. Something like that could happen for orks. Or their iVersion could be up soon. The point is: buying skies of death might be the best option to use the model, but it's required to use it, let alone to play orks at all.

Reinholt
26-02-2013, 12:23
The quote I was replying to was clearly talking about units that were in the electronic codices, so I answered accordingly.

Orks still have the option if simply using the whole rest of their codex instead to make an army or using the model as a stand in for FW ork flyers.
And the waiting might well be shorter than we think; both the 3.5 Chaos and Necron codices had corrected reprints in their lifetime. Something like that could happen for orks. Or their iVersion could be up soon. The point is: buying skies of death might be the best option to use the model, but it's required to use it, let alone to play orks at all.

Stop trolling.

Nobody said the issue was an inability to play Orks. Nobody said they couldn't use the model as something else. Nobody said that the model ceased existence.

People bought the rulebook and the codex, at the time where this was all that was needed to play the game in terms of rules one must pay for, and then bought this model. After the fact, GW pulled down free content that allowed the use of this model, and replaced it with paid direct only content or paid online content (for some, but not all, of the models).

This is referred to as "bait and switch" in most instances of commerce. This is what people are angry about. Paired with the poor way GW has been treating customers over the past five years, they also have no goodwill left where people are willing to assume this is a mistake or oversight; it seems very deliberate and they are cutting indies out of the loop just to add insult to injury.

I think this has been made clear previously in this thread. If people wanted to proxy the model for a FW flier, they could have already done so. Nothing you suggest is useful advice in this context; you are suggesting things people already could have been doing before this happened, and if they had wanted to, they would have been.

ehlijen
26-02-2013, 13:13
Stop trolling.

Nobody said the issue was an inability to play Orks. Nobody said they couldn't use the model as something else. Nobody said that the model ceased existence.

People bought the rulebook and the codex, at the time where this was all that was needed to play the game in terms of rules one must pay for, and then bought this model. After the fact, GW pulled down free content that allowed the use of this model, and replaced it with paid direct only content or paid online content (for some, but not all, of the models).

This is referred to as "bait and switch" in most instances of commerce. This is what people are angry about. Paired with the poor way GW has been treating customers over the past five years, they also have no goodwill left where people are willing to assume this is a mistake or oversight; it seems very deliberate and they are cutting indies out of the loop just to add insult to injury.

I think this has been made clear previously in this thread. If people wanted to proxy the model for a FW flier, they could have already done so. Nothing you suggest is useful advice in this context; you are suggesting things people already could have been doing before this happened, and if they had wanted to, they would have been.

When the model was released, the rules needed to be bought in a separate product, a WD issue. If anything, the understanding was that inevitably a new ork codex would be released with new rules in it which would have to be purchased. If you didn't see it coming that GW would eventually charge you for newer versions of rules, you have not been paying attention to their release strategy for the past decade or so.

And I'm not giving advice, I'm refuting the claims that people are enitled to free rules updates and that GW is trying to make anyone buy this book.

Mastodon
26-02-2013, 14:33
Stop trolling.

Nobody said the issue was an inability to play Orks. Nobody said they couldn't use the model as something else. Nobody said that the model ceased existence.

People bought the rulebook and the codex, at the time where this was all that was needed to play the game in terms of rules one must pay for, and then bought this model. After the fact, GW pulled down free content that allowed the use of this model, and replaced it with paid direct only content or paid online content (for some, but not all, of the models).

This is referred to as "bait and switch" in most instances of commerce. This is what people are angry about. Paired with the poor way GW has been treating customers over the past five years, they also have no goodwill left where people are willing to assume this is a mistake or oversight; it seems very deliberate and they are cutting indies out of the loop just to add insult to injury.

I think this has been made clear previously in this thread. If people wanted to proxy the model for a FW flier, they could have already done so. Nothing you suggest is useful advice in this context; you are suggesting things people already could have been doing before this happened, and if they had wanted to, they would have been.

Someone posting something you disagree with isnt trolling.

The rules for the Ork Bomma have never been online for free, the only thing in the FAQ was a change to the rules printed in the WD. There has never been a way to get the rules for the Storm Talon + Bomma for free.

I think you're the one trolling now.

weeble1000
26-02-2013, 15:40
Someone posting something you disagree with isnt trolling.

The rules for the Ork Bomma have never been online for free, the only thing in the FAQ was a change to the rules printed in the WD. There has never been a way to get the rules for the Storm Talon + Bomma for free.

I think you're the one trolling now.

This is really just splitting hairs. A significant portion of the market feels "entitled" to free rules because companies that compete with Games Workshop offer rules that are either completely free, or comparatively very, very, very reasonably priced. Whether or not the rules for the one model were never technically 100% free is a very fine point. Errata and FAQ are typically free, and GW indeed offers those for free.

Part of the problem with this situation is also that access to the rules was byzantine. GW releases a rulebook. GW subsequently releases a model that has rules that are not included in the rulebook. GW provides those rules in one issue of a monthly magazine. GW subsequently changes those rules, and provides a free errata on its website. GW subsequently includes those rules in a compendium and changes the available errata to "see the rules in the new compendium."

It is a frustratingly moving target. Where is the information? Where can I get it? Which information is correct? What does it actually cost? The information was shuffled about in a confusing manner that arguably induces customers to continue spending money on new products and must be frustratingly difficult for a new customer to follow. Bought the codex, bought the model, now I need to by a magazine? Bought the codex, bought the model, bought the magazine, now I need to get an online errata? Bought the codex, bought the model, bought the magazine, missed the online errata, now I have to buy the compendium?

If you have to pay for the rules, fine. But where are they? How much do you pay? What version is correct? If the rules were tucked right into the packaging for the model, the price was adjusted accordingly, and any FAQs or errata were available online, I don't think anyone would be complaining, even if GW subsequently released a compendium of the collected rules. Hey, want to know what the rules for all fliers are but don't want to buy all of the models, buy this reasonably priced rules compendium. I don't think that would have caused this response, direct only or not.

esk34
26-02-2013, 16:54
Someone posting something you disagree with isnt trolling.

The rules for the Ork Bomma have never been online for free, the only thing in the FAQ was a change to the rules printed in the WD. There has never been a way to get the rules for the Storm Talon + Bomma for free.

I think you're the one trolling now.

While it is true that the rules for the fliers were never free, there are other models that after their White Dwarf debut, where put up on the website as a free PDF. If you bought the model shortly after the White Dwarf became unavailable, you would not be wrong based on precedent to think that the rules for these models would be released on the website, much like the Webspinner before them. I was thinking this would be the case. I know GW never announced that they would include the rules online for free, or promised anything of the sort, but to be honest I feel they simply do not care. This should have been released months ago. The fliers have had no rules, unless you had the white dwarf, for ages. I have the feeling that, somebody came up with this idea when 6th was released and fliers were discovered to be all powerfull, instead of just chucking up a free PDF, somebody has come up with the bright idea of making the rules into a nice book, with some pretty pictures, and a reasonably hefty price tag that should sell a couple of units. Well power to GW, I'm not buying it though.

Reinholt
26-02-2013, 20:40
The issue of trolling is not related to my disagreement; I've actually agreed with a pretty decent amount of what both Mastodon and ehlijen have said in the past. I've also disagreed with some of it.

However, moving the goal-posts to try to win an argument or constructing strawman arguments is intellectually dishonest. It's like when people try to argue about GW's financials using the "well people expect GW to go bankrupt RIGHT NOW and that's stupid" counter-argument. Nobody expects that.

The issue is here that GW just abruptly changed their rules model with no notice.

In the past, it was:

Rulebook
Codex
Occasional WD and FAQs

That's all you needed to play the core game. All expansions optional. That would have provided you with the use of all models for your army of choice.

Now it's:

Rulebook
Codex
Expansion
FAQs

There is an extra step in there.

This is part 1 of why people are angry. It's essentially another unannounced price increase. What are they going to do next, split the rulebook into 12 parts and charge fifty pounds for each one? Part 2 is the direct only, which harms the very stores people go to for these products in many cases and further shrinks the community.

The issue is not a narrow technicality of the exact timing of when which rules were available or not. The issue is that, today, to use one of those models (if you are just starting and/or don't have the old FAQ, if you are allowed to use it), you now need three books. Before you needed two. This is a factual statement, not a matter of opinion.

Again, on the entitlement front, I don't think people feel entitled; I'm not entitled to anything from GW and GW is entitled to nothing from me. Most people will be honest about that, even if they were momentarily angry. Unfortunately for GW, the rational response to that usually ends up being giving GW nothing, which is happening in increasing numbers over the past few years.

Mastodon
26-02-2013, 20:44
I think thats where we differ. I do not think you absolutely need this expansion book, it seems like a stop gap until the new Space Marine/Ork book comes out, and I highly doubt they'll do things like this in the future.

The way they're releasing the book kind of backs up my argument. If like you say, they want it to become part of the 'core rules' why would they have so few copies to sell?

And again, it really comes down to this. If you absolutely must have a Storm Talon/Ork Bomma in your army you will need this book.

If you do not have those two models, you dont even need to know it exists.

Dr Zoidberg
26-02-2013, 20:50
And for those of us that would like to use a Stormtalon in our army and have already paid for the rules to use it once already? And also don't feel like forking out $50 bucks for what is essentially a 4-line errata?

Mastodon
26-02-2013, 21:16
And for those of us that would like to use a Stormtalon in our army and have already paid for the rules to use it once already? And also don't feel like forking out $50 bucks for what is essentially a 4-line errata?

If you'd already bought the white dwarf and regularly used a Storm Talon, you should already have the FAQ which updated the WD rules. Lower the points to what the book says and you're good to go.

ehlijen
26-02-2013, 21:46
The issue of trolling is not related to my disagreement; I've actually agreed with a pretty decent amount of what both Mastodon and ehlijen have said in the past. I've also disagreed with some of it.

However, moving the goal-posts to try to win an argument or constructing strawman arguments is intellectually dishonest. It's like when people try to argue about GW's financials using the "well people expect GW to go bankrupt RIGHT NOW and that's stupid" counter-argument. Nobody expects that.

As is using false absolutes. All I'm saying is that GW is not forcing this book on anyone (if they were trying, they'd have hyped it, announced it limited edition or just plain made more to sell), like some people claim. All bar the ork dakkajet rules are available by other means and I actually believe the dakkajet will follow in some other form before too long.


The issue is here that GW just abruptly changed their rules model with no notice.

In the past, it was:

Rulebook
Codex
Occasional WD and FAQs

That's all you needed to play the core game. All expansions optional. That would have provided you with the use of all models for your army of choice.

Now it's:

Rulebook
Codex
Expansion
FAQs

There is an extra step in there.

Actually, there isn't. You've just replaced WD with expansion. Yes, the expansions cost more, and it's bad value for money. So is the WD. The expansion is still optional. The dakkajet was never in the codex, so it still not being in the codex or free is not a change.



This is part 1 of why people are angry. It's essentially another unannounced price increase. What are they going to do next, split the rulebook into 12 parts and charge fifty pounds for each one? Part 2 is the direct only, which harms the very stores people go to for these products in many cases and further shrinks the community.

And people are free to hate GW's prices. I'm just not believing that going from 'rules aren't available' to 'rules cost X' is an increase. We are not talking about mandatory codex upgrades (those were added free to the iCodices, ie to the people who have provably bought the relevant codex rather than just anyone with an internet connection as free pdfs would have been). We are talking solely about rules for a unit that were never in the codex or free. They were in product A, now they're in product B. Product B costs more, but it also has more thematically relevant content. If it's not enough, yeah that sucks, but that's a pricing issue, not a content withholding scheme.



The issue is not a narrow technicality of the exact timing of when which rules were available or not. The issue is that, today, to use one of those models (if you are just starting and/or don't have the old FAQ, if you are allowed to use it), you now need three books. Before you needed two. This is a factual statement, not a matter of opinion.

That's why the first advice to new players is to get the codex so they can see what's in there and what's not. And again, the faq PDF didn't have the complete dakkajet+variants rules as far as I can tell, so where before you had to buy a rulebook to play, a codex to use a faction and a specific WD to use a unit, now you still have to buy the first two and a much more easily found expansion book for the last. So you're still buying three things.


Again, on the entitlement front, I don't think people feel entitled; I'm not entitled to anything from GW and GW is entitled to nothing from me. Most people will be honest about that, even if they were momentarily angry. Unfortunately for GW, the rational response to that usually ends up being giving GW nothing, which is happening in increasing numbers over the past few years.

No one says Skies of Blood is a good book. But there is nothing that majorly sets it apart from other GW publications in badness. If anything, I'm glad it's not pointlessly hardback.

JWhex
26-02-2013, 22:24
On the topic of GW having a poor relationship with independent retailers that is nothing new. The person that owns the local FLGS routinely tells me about some business policy of GW that causes him grief and is out of line compared to his other suppliers. The store really does not support GW very well at all even though he does sell a lot of product. The owner has had to deal with so much crap from GW that he has just kind of developed a disinterested attitude toward GW. Also, there policy of keeping everything secret until the last minute really does hurt smaller shops that are struggling in the current economy.

When magic became popular the largest game store in town just quit stocking GW altogether because the owner was so aggravated at the way he was treated by GW. He still kept selling miniatures and wargames and even kept the gaming tables but he basically just said screw you GW your not worth the headache.

New Cult King
26-02-2013, 23:59
Round here, the new flier book costs about 4x what WD costs. My maths isn't great, but I think that's an increase in cost.

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 00:21
Round here, the new flier book costs about 4x what WD costs. My maths isn't great, but I think that's an increase in cost.

But instead of adds you get rules for more flyers than were in that WD, new missions, dogfighting rules, ace rules and a sturdier cover. It'st still not worth as much as they're asking, but it is worth more than that one WD cost. 2-3 times would probably have been acceptable to me.

weeble1000
27-02-2013, 01:00
Ehlijen, why do you think GW altered the online FAQ to reference Death from the Skies?

Dr Zoidberg
27-02-2013, 01:05
But instead of adds you get rules for more flyers than were in that WD, new missions, dogfighting rules, ace rules and a sturdier cover. It'st still not worth as much as they're asking, but it is worth more than that one WD cost. 2-3 times would probably have been acceptable to me.

Most of which will never be used in any standard game of 40K....

Again, why can't the basic changes to existing rules be released online as a PDF? What if I don't want all the extra stuff, but simply want the 4 lines of text that tell how to use a model I already forked out cash for and had been able to use without issue until a week ago?

Voss
27-02-2013, 03:31
But instead of adds you get rules for more flyers than were in that WD, new missions, dogfighting rules, ace rules and a sturdier cover. It'st still not worth as much as they're asking, but it is worth more than that one WD cost. 2-3 times would probably have been acceptable to me.
You realize it _is_ about 3 times the price of WD. At least in the US. $33 vs $10.

Avatar_exADV
27-02-2013, 03:57
Look, it's fair to say that at some point GW was going to incorporate the stuff in a book - people were already complaining that they couldn't get that WD anymore. And it's not like the book has zero other content, though it's fair to note that it IS highly duplicative with another non-codex book they released recently. But given that they had some flyer content floating around, lumping it all into a book is at least not totally crazy or evil.

The reason the retailers are torqued is because GW's history with its independent retailers is full of ugly episodes, and this leads people to put the worst face on things. Even though this was probably more "let's get some sales in hand before people realize the book's not worth much" rather than "let's force people to shop at our online store so we make more money than if people go to a game shop where they might do something silly like play our game", well... for a lot of retailers GW does not get the benefit of the doubt on that score. Sadly, GW probably could have defused this bomb pretty easily by saying something like "this will be available from our web site on the 15th, and we'll roll it out to our retail stores as soon as we can!" or something similar. That it didn't occur to them that their various stockists would get annoyed - or that it did occur, but they proceeded without even putting a fig leaf on for cover - says a lot about the internal politics at GW.

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 04:26
Ehlijen, why do you think GW altered the online FAQ to reference Death from the Skies?
So that players can find the latest versions of the rules, something that isn't that straighforward a process for units that aren't in your codex.

Most of which will never be used in any standard game of 40K....

Again, why can't the basic changes to existing rules be released online as a PDF? What if I don't want all the extra stuff, but simply want the 4 lines of text that tell how to use a model I already forked out cash for and had been able to use without issue until a week ago?
Because GW isn't in the business of releasing rules for free (even if it means their own doom). If they release it as a free pdf, everyone gets it. If they release it as a free update to their iCodices, only those who they know have bought the product they want to update with those rules will get it.


You realize it _is_ about 3 times the price of WD. At least in the US. $33 vs $10.

The post I was replying to stated it was 4 times, which is also the case where I live. AUD$12 vs AUD$48 (+/- a few $ maybe, been a while since I looked at those prices). So lucky you!

Dr Zoidberg
27-02-2013, 05:02
Because GW isn't in the business of releasing rules for free (even if it means their own doom). If they release it as a free pdf, everyone gets it. If they release it as a free update to their iCodices, only those who they know have bought the product they want to update with those rules will get it.
!

Yes, I understand what they're in the business of. What I'm trying to do is understand why you're justifying it...

f2k
27-02-2013, 06:25
And for those of us that would like to use a Stormtalon in our army and have already paid for the rules to use it once already? And also don't feel like forking out $50 bucks for what is essentially a 4-line errata?If you'd already bought the white dwarf and regularly used a Storm Talon, you should already have the FAQ which updated the WD rules. Lower the points to what the book says and you're good to go.

Sorry, but that just doesn't fly...

I bought the model and the rules (in White Dwarf), and now those rules have been replaced with a massively overpriced book that I have to buy in order to use my model.

For anything other than a friendly game with people I know, the current rules are a must. Going "this is the old rules and these are the changes that some random guy on WarSeer claims have been made in the new rulebook" just doesn't work.
The same goes for the FAQ. Even if I had saved the old FAQ, the rules have been changed so it's no longer usable.

Had they updated the entire codex I might grudgingly have bought it. But to pay 200 DKr (or 2/3 the price of a big WarMachine hardcover rulebook/expansion) just to get a single page of rules? And having to pay for shipping as well (as my local store can't get it) which almost puts it on the level with previously mentioned WarMachine book?

No way...


So that players can find the latest versions of the rules, something that isn't that straighforward a process for units that aren't in your codex.


That doesn't fly either...

The players are still expected to be able to find the FAQs, right? Besides, as the book isn't available at my local store, finding it is arguable just as difficult as finding those FAQs.

If they really wanted it to be straight forward they would either include the rules in the box or put a big sign on their webpage saying "sorry, we had to update the old rules to bring them in line with the current core rules - click here to download the updated rules".

Let's not fool ourselves here. This is nothing more than blatant greed. Games Workshop is simply trying to see how much junk they can make us pay for. Nothing more...

Mastodon
27-02-2013, 06:48
Ok let me say this again because its patently obvious some people just cannot read.

The only change to the Storm Talon rules in Death From The skies is a points cost change.

Thats it.

If like you said, you've had a Storm Talon since the white dwarf, you must have downloaded the FAQ to see the updates for 6th edition. You can carry on completely as normal.


And shipping is free when you spend a certain amount of the GW website, which this book qualifies for in almost all territories. But dont let that get in the way of your complaining.

f2k
27-02-2013, 06:56
Ok let me say this again because its patently obvious some people just cannot read.

The only change to the Storm Talon rules in Death From The skies is a points cost change.

Thats it.

If like you said, you've had a Storm Talon since the white dwarf, you must have downloaded the FAQ to see the updates for 6th edition. You can carry on completely as normal.


And shipping is free when you spend a certain amount of the GW website, which this book qualifies for in almost all territories. But dont let that get in the way of your complaining.

Actually, I never said I have a Strom Talon - I have an Ork Bomber...

In any case, as I said: the only useful thing in non-friendly games (and even in some friendly games too) is the current rules. "Dude, I totally saw some guy on WarSeer post that the Ork Bomber has been lowered to 50 points and now carries a battle cannon!". Thanks, but no thanks, rules are superseded for a reason and now both the White Dwarf and old FAQs are superseded. That is: they cannot be used for gaming any more.

As for the free shipping... That's 500 DKr at a minimum when ordering from Denmark. Like I'm going to spend an extra 300 DKr buying at full retail price in their webshop just to get a single page of rules...

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 06:57
Yes, I understand what they're in the business of. What I'm trying to do is understand why you're justifying it...

Because we, as in GW customers, have been paying them a long time for doing exactly this: releasing cool models and rules as seperate products, the rules often being revised in expensive new books. If this is shocking news to you, GW isn't the company for you. It probably isn't the company for many anymore. This may well be the last straw for many and if you wish to leave, I wish you luck with whatever other game you find (me, I'm working on a houserule system I hope to drag my friends into testing some time). But it is not a new threat to gaming. In fact, compared to crusade of fire, I think this is a step in the right direction. Not a big one, but something.


Sorry, but that just doesn't fly...

I bought the model and the rules (in White Dwarf), and now those rules have been replaced with a massively overpriced book that I have to buy in order to use my model.

I bought the 5th ed marine codex to play some kill team with. All I want is the Sternguard rules. Come the 6th ed marine codex, I'll 'have' to buy an expensive book to keep using them. Should I get the sternguard rules for free in a FAQ?


For anything other than a friendly game with people I know, the current rules are a must. Going "this is the old rules and these are the changes that some random guy on WarSeer claims have been made in the new rulebook" just doesn't work.
The same goes for the FAQ. Even if I had saved the old FAQ, the rules have been changed so it's no longer usable.

Had they updated the entire codex I might grudgingly have bought it. But to pay 200 DKr (or 2/3 the price of a big WarMachine hardcover rulebook/expansion) just to get a single page of rules? And having to pay for shipping as well (as my local store can't get it) which almost puts it on the level with previously mentioned WarMachine book?

Then wait until the Ork codex comes out, it will undoubtedly have yet another update on those rules. To play GW games you always had to buy the rules seperately and again each new edition to keep up to date. It's a particularly bad value book if you only want that one page, but the fact is you are getting more than that. You have to chose whether that's worth it or not, just like you do everytime your codex is updated.



That doesn't fly either...

The players are still expected to be able to find the FAQs, right? Besides, as the book isn't available at my local store, finding it is arguable just as difficult as finding those FAQs.

The players are pointed to the FAQs by a section in the big rulebook. That the book isn't available is because GW grossly understimated just how many they could sell of it. Nevertheless, in theory there is a book that has the rules and something players can be reasonably expected to look at should point them there.


If they really wanted it to be straight forward they would either include the rules in the box or put a big sign on their webpage saying "sorry, we had to update the old rules to bring them in line with the current core rules - click here to download the updated rules".

Let's not fool ourselves here. This is nothing more than blatant greed. Games Workshop is simply trying to see how much junk they can make us pay for. Nothing more...

GW could go that way, but they've never done so in the past. Their shtick is selling rulebooks and models seperately. They have done so for more than 2 decades. The ideal solution is actually in place, it's just not implemented widely enough yet: you get the free update if you can prove you bought the book the upate goes in: ie talon and raven for marine iCodex.

Dr Zoidberg
27-02-2013, 07:24
Ok let me say this again because its patently obvious some people just cannot read.

The only change to the Storm Talon rules in Death From The skies is a points cost change.

Thats it.

If like you said, you've had a Storm Talon since the white dwarf, you must have downloaded the FAQ to see the updates for 6th edition. You can carry on .

This link is the Pre-DFTS PDF. Look at page three. All it says is refer to the profile entry in the new rulebook, that's it. It makes no other mention of altering the WD rules.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420318a_Space_Marines_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

Now, according to others on here, the rules have been changed. Strafing run has added, it's now a Flyer with Hover (it wasn't before), and I assume the Hover Strike rule has been removed as a result.

Given the old PDF never actually mentioned any of these additions, it is false to state it will suffice now. It is not only a change in points, but also a total change in profile and rules.

The only "legal" rules for the Stormtalon exist in DFTS.

f2k
27-02-2013, 07:44
I bought the 5th ed marine codex to play some kill team with. All I want is the Sternguard rules. Come the 6th ed marine codex, I'll 'have' to buy an expensive book to keep using them. Should I get the sternguard rules for free in a FAQ?


But that's not really what happened here, is it?

Let's summarise what happened:

I bought the Ork codex long ago.
Games Workshop released an Ork flyer with rules in White Dwarf.
Games Workshop released a new set of core-rules and an update to the earlier White Dwarf Rules.
Games Workshop removed the FAQ, replacing it with a new book with new rules.
I have to buy the book in order to continue using the model I already bought. And I'll still have to buy the new codex when it's released.



Then wait until the Ork codex comes out, it will undoubtedly have yet another update on those rules. To play GW games you always had to buy the rules seperately and again each new edition to keep up to date. It's a particularly bad value book if you only want that one page, but the fact is you are getting more than that. You have to chose whether that's worth it or not, just like you do everytime your codex is updated.


Yes, you had to buy a new codex every now and again - I agree with that. Difference here is that they, basically, replaced a previously free PDF with a book. A book, I might add, which is not generally available.

As for the value of the book... Even if I wanted to use each and every rule contained in it, it would still be painfully bad value for my money when compared to what other companies are offering. Particularely considering that it's softcover.



The players are pointed to the FAQs by a section in the big rulebook. That the book isn't available is because GW grossly understimated just how many they could sell of it. Nevertheless, in theory there is a book that has the rules and something players can be reasonably expected to look at should point them there.


This has got nothing to do with underestimating the need and everything to do with side-lining the indy-stores.



GW could go that way, but they've never done so in the past. Their shtick is selling rulebooks and models seperately. They have done so for more than 2 decades. The ideal solution is actually in place, it's just not implemented widely enough yet: you get the free update if you can prove you bought the book the upate goes in: ie talon and raven for marine iCodex.

True.

And had it been a new Ork codex I wouldn't have complained as bitterly. But it's not. It's a single page of previously free rules that I now have to pay for. And not only that, it's a not-avaliable-in-my-local-store single page of rules!
For something that Games Workshop themselves have listed as an Essential, not releasing it in local stores is, to be honest, utterly baffling.

Contrast with Battlefront and how they've handled the upgrade to Flames of War v3. Got the old v2 rulebook? Here's a free mini-format softcover rulebook, free of charge. Got the old Turning Tides/Earth and Steel books and feeling a bit miffed that we're already updating them? Sorry, tell you want - here's 50% off the price on the new books...

Now, that's how to keep customers happy. But sadly, it's been a very long time since that was ever on Games Workshops agenda...

Shadey
27-02-2013, 08:42
Ok let me say this again because its patently obvious some people just cannot read.

The only change to the Storm Talon rules in Death From The skies is a points cost change.

Thats it.

If like you said, you've had a Storm Talon since the white dwarf, you must have downloaded the FAQ to see the updates for 6th edition. You can carry on completely as normal.


And shipping is free when you spend a certain amount of the GW website, which this book qualifies for in almost all territories. But dont let that get in the way of your complaining.

It isn't that he can't read. It isn't even whether you are right or wrong.

It is that he can not assert with any authority or credibility in a competitive game, a rule change based on what you, or I, or any one on this forum says.

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 09:56
This link is the Pre-DFTS PDF. Look at page three. All it says is refer to the profile entry in the new rulebook, that's it. It makes no other mention of altering the WD rules.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420318a_Space_Marines_6th_Ed_V1.pdf


It did however require the WD rules to be of any use. So it was not 'free rules'.


Now, according to others on here, the rules have been changed. Strafing run has added, it's now a Flyer with Hover (it wasn't before), and I assume the Hover Strike rule has been removed as a result.

Given the old PDF never actually mentioned any of these additions, it is false to state it will suffice now. It is not only a change in points, but also a total change in profile and rules.


The FAQ never sufficed. It needed to be used in conjunction with a paid for product.



The only "legal" rules for the Stormtalon exist in DFTS.
And the iCodex: SM



But that's not really what happened here, is it?

Let's summarise what happened:

I bought the Ork codex long ago.
Games Workshop released an Ork flyer with rules in White Dwarf.
Games Workshop released a new set of core-rules and an update to the earlier White Dwarf Rules.
Games Workshop removed the FAQ, replacing it with a new book with new rules.
I have to buy the book in order to continue using the model I already bought. And I'll still have to buy the new codex when it's released.

In other words.
You bought a product.
You bought a different product.
GW updated the second product with an FAQ.
GW brought out a new product containing updated versions of all the content of your second product and more.
GW removed the faq as it now deals with an outdated product.
None of this is unprecedented or evil. Just because those flyer rules by themselves are not a full codex, doesn't make this procedure wrong.



Yes, you had to buy a new codex every now and again - I agree with that. Difference here is that they, basically, replaced a previously free PDF with a book. A book, I might add, which is not generally available.

No, they replaced an old, purchasable WD's article with a free FAQ updating it with a new book. That the book is not generally available is a stuffup by GW and one they deserve flak for.



As for the value of the book... Even if I wanted to use each and every rule contained in it, it would still be painfully bad value for my money when compared to what other companies are offering. Particularely considering that it's softcover.


Sadly, the story of most GW products.




This has got nothing to do with underestimating the need and everything to do with side-lining the indy-stores.

That doesn't explain how much less agressively hyped and available this was than Crusades of fire.



And had it been a new Ork codex I wouldn't have complained as bitterly. But it's not. It's a single page of previously free rules that I now have to pay for. And not only that, it's a not-avaliable-in-my-local-store single page of rules!
For something that Games Workshop themselves have listed as an Essential, not releasing it in local stores is, to be honest, utterly baffling.

The rules were not previously free. The FAQ only worked in conjunction with an article that needed to be purchased. It was a product that was outdated by a newer product. Just not a codex.



Contrast with Battlefront and how they've handled the upgrade to Flames of War v3. Got the old v2 rulebook? Here's a free mini-format softcover rulebook, free of charge. Got the old Turning Tides/Earth and Steel books and feeling a bit miffed that we're already updating them? Sorry, tell you want - here's 50% off the price on the new books...

All fine examples of things GW could do, but doesn't, sadly. And they're not required or even recommended to as long as people buy their stuff.



Now, that's how to keep customers happy. But sadly, it's been a very long time since that was ever on Games Workshops agenda...

So free upgrades to the iCodices don't count? That's better than nothing.

Mastodon
27-02-2013, 10:11
The rules for the Bommer and Storm Talon were not, and have never been free. Stop stating this as fact, because it isn't.

Verm1s
27-02-2013, 10:47
The rules for the Bommer and Storm Talon were not, and have never been free. Stop stating this as fact, because it isn't.

That makes it alright, then.

ac4155
27-02-2013, 11:09
Surely the argument 'I bought the model then WD for the rules, which are now outdated and I have to buy a new rule book' could also be used for army books.

I buy my army and army book/codex, which then gets outdated and I need to buy a new version if I want to play with the most current rules. In that case, why aren't people arguing that the rules should be free so that you can continue to use the models you bought?

Melkanador
27-02-2013, 11:27
Maybe because in a new armybook there are new rules for more than a few models.

Should a new armybook contain only new rules for a handful of models and the rest of the rules including the armywide rules are the same, than you can expect a ********* towards GW.

weeble1000
27-02-2013, 11:47
Ehlijen, how does putting rules in a printed book give players better access to up to the "latest version of the rules" than an online .pdf that can be, and is, updated?

Berk
27-02-2013, 12:13
From what I understand, people with the iCodex have got the updated rules for free. Why? Surely they've paid the same as a person that bought a physical copy for the codex, so why do they get a free update and the person with a hard copy doesn't?

Omniassiah
27-02-2013, 12:35
Maybe because in a new armybook there are new rules for more than a few models.

Should a new armybook contain only new rules for a handful of models and the rest of the rules including the armywide rules are the same, than you can expect a ********* towards GW.

Most people like Melkandor states are okay with buy a new codex or army book once each edition. Why because in the theoretical path to a better rule set (I've only seen lateral shifts in GW case recently) rules from a previous edition may end up having some quirks from wording changes. Most people expect, and should, that a FAQ or Errata should be released to clean up those errors. Now when each army, book, or time period goes to be reviewed, yes, we expect to have to buy a new book. But then again we expect an update in points cost and special rules for most if not all units and the addition of a few new ones. I can't name a single codex update that had this little of an update, every one has been a fairy significant change for better or for worse.

What this does is throws in the possibility that you may have to buy 1 or 2 more books in between your regular codex release at pretty much codex price . It would be $40 not $33 for me to get DftS since I have to pay shipping. Sure we payed for other supplements in between before like Apoc and Cityfight, but overall those were fair more useful and had rules that were only applicable if you were playing those style of games. If you never wanted to play Apoc there was and is absolutely no reason to ever buy that book. Crusade of Fire while I consider to be crap value, was a purely optional book. Nothing in it could be used in a regular game and everything was optional. That meant that if I didn't think it was a good value there was no reason to buy it.' Should be mentioned that the rest of the reprint stuff in the book is not that old. Out of print yes, old no.

Now when I play 40k I play between 4-5 different clubs in the area. If I had those fliers I would have to either buy this book, not use them, or try and remember which house rules it has for which play group. None of those options are acceptable to me. Also I have a strict policy of not wasting my time to house rule games for regular use. If I wanted to write rules for me to play with, why would I waste my time paying someone else to do it for me in the first place. House rules for variants are fine but not for the standard game.

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 12:37
Ehlijen, how does putting rules in a printed book give players better access to up to the "latest version of the rules" than an online .pdf that can be, and is, updated?

Because there won't be such a .pdf. GW doesn't seem interested in releasing full unit rules in an easily copied digital medium.
At best there will be an iCodex, which would be better for updateability than a print codex.


From what I understand, people with the iCodex have got the updated rules for free. Why? Surely they've paid the same as a person that bought a physical copy for the codex, so why do they get a free update and the person with a hard copy doesn't?

Because for the iCodex there is a convenient way to track who has actually bought it. If you have it, the update does something for you. If you don't, it's useless. This is a basic form of copyprotection computer game publishers have been using since steam began.
No, it isn't particularly fair for hardcopy owners :(

sigur
27-02-2013, 12:47
Maybe to just shut the people up who insist on digital copies having to be cheaper than hardcopies? :D

Hmm, I thought that a bunch of indie retailers got together and threw some money at lawyers to make conditions GW offers for retailers a bit less sucky but oh well. So this is all about some store owner not liking the rules and they won't allow these rules to be used at their store's table(s)? Weird. But I guess you can get at least some mileage out of not liking GW or their rules (don't get me wrong, introducing flyers to 40k surely was a clever thing from a business point of view but, as so many other things, it just doesn't have a place on the 40k table in my opinion) and write that online. :) GW are rather bad with PR and mostly have poor store managers handle it without giving them much to handle it with but in this case I think that GW, if they ever hear of this, probably would react with "It is great to hear that you are passionate about the GW hobby. We constantly strife to improve the Warhammer40,000 experience so we value your feedback. Enjoy our Space Marines." and, as I think, rightly so.

Reinholt
27-02-2013, 12:53
In that case, why aren't people arguing that the rules should be free so that you can continue to use the models you bought?

As the guy who has been saying the rules should be free for three years to avoid controversy and sell more models, can I finally say "I told you so"?

More vexing for people is the increase in cost. So you purchased the bomber, then WD. That's an extra $10 in the US for rules. Now they want to charge you $33 for a new book covering one unit. That's an extra $23, out of the blue, for a single unit not in a codex update. The past behavior was updating codices infrequently, and people were find with that. Adding a new wrinkle to extract money for something that really should be free is the issue here.

Also, if codices have ~30 units, at this premium, you'd have a $690 codex coming your way. So I think it's obvious why people are outraged. Even on a one-off basis, this is excessive. Not selling it through indies (while maybe a blessing in disguise for the indies) just makes it reek even more of greed.

f2k
27-02-2013, 13:08
It did however require the WD rules to be of any use. So it was not 'free rules'.

The updated rules were free. Yes, you needed the old rules for it to work but the updated rules were free.



In other words.
You bought a product.
You bought a different product.
GW updated the second product with an FAQ.
GW brought out a new product containing updated versions of all the content of your second product and more.
GW removed the faq as it now deals with an outdated product.
None of this is unprecedented or evil. Just because those flyer rules by themselves are not a full codex, doesn't make this procedure wrong.


Yes, it does make it wrong. Why? Because they now have a whole bunch of pissed-off customers.

Imagine, if you will, if they had upgraded the rules for Battlewagons in an FAQ and then, mere months later, removed that update and told you to go buy the new Mangled Metal book if you wanted to be able to continue to use your Battlewagon.
That's how I feel right now...

We might argue if releasing a compilation was "wrong" (and I don't entirely disagree with you on that - it might not be wrong as such, but it certainly stinks of greed) but it was certainly wrong in that it angered the customers and, much much worse, the stores that are supposed to recruit new players.


So free upgrades to the iCodices don't count? That's better than nothing.

Not in my world, no. I never have, and never will, buy an iWhatever.

In fact, I would suggest that that was the worst possible solution that they could come up with. Not only have the angered the non-iPad costumers, they have also created an environment where there are two different versions of the rules.


As for the free rules, that's not entirely unheard off. Battlefront regularly releases, and updates, free briefings. True, they sometimes gets absorbed into a new book, but it's still free playable content.

As far as I'm aware, the rules for Infinity can be downloaded from their webpage.

And Privateer Press has a set of quick-starter rules in every starter-box.


Finally, do remember that many of us have a very short temper indeed when it comes to Games Workshop. They have quite simply pulled a fast one once to often and now the camel's back is well and truly broken.

6mmhero
27-02-2013, 13:29
This has got nothing to do with underestimating the need and everything to do with side-lining the indy-stores.

I really didn't want to get involved in this thread as it is a bit circular but, it does indeed have a lot to do with underestimating the need and not with sidelining indy-stores. I have spoken to a number of GW store managers about this book and almost all are annoyed that they did not and could not get this in to the store. They also did not relise it was being released until it was upon them and from what I understand this has been fed back up the chain.
It seems to hint at a release that was not really planned on being the success that it was and in fact was probably some release that was just to fill space or test the waters.
I think it is odd that they would not want their stores to carry the book or indeed why they would not allow indies to order it especially so if they expected the book to be a big success.

It is good that they have updated the rules etc but it really should have been in the FAQ at the end of the day.

weeble1000
27-02-2013, 14:32
Ehlijen, and yet those rules were in the FAQ .pdf, or at least the errata to the rules printed in WD. And yet in spite of updating any further changes to those rules, the document was instead altered to refer to Death from the Skies.

As far as I know, GW never identified the WD rules as "experimental" "test" "preliminary" or something similar. GW subjected customers to a comparatively rapid evolution of "official" rules (relative to change in game edition), which has no precedent in GW company history. GW charged for those official rules again in unusual ways.

I expect that we can all agree that the Death from the Skies situation is novel, yes?

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 23:21
Why is it novel?

GW releases a product with rules information (codex, WD, napkin, whatever).
GW releases FAQ for said product.
GW releases new product that replaces the old product.
FAQ is no longer meaningful, so GW removes it.

This is how they do it for codices, why would they do it differently for other books?

Just because it was a WD article doesn't mean it's immune to the same 'updates will cost money' approach that applies to codices. Skies of death is different in that it has less faction specific content than a codex, but it does still offer an amount of content beyond just one flyer. And it costs a lot less than a codex. It doesn't cost less enough, but it could have been so much worse.

jindianajonz
28-02-2013, 04:05
Don't think it has been pointed out, but the GW website still has the following description for the Ork Codex:

"This 104-page Warhammer 40,000 Codex contains all the rules you'll need to field an Ork army, as well as detailed background information, bestiary, accompanying artwork and 'Eavy Metal showcase."

Clearly this is no longer the case; if you want ALL the rules for fielding an Orc Army, you'll have to spend twice as much.

Omniassiah
28-02-2013, 04:53
Why is it novel?

GW releases a product with rules information (codex, WD, napkin, whatever).
GW releases FAQ for said product.
GW releases new product that replaces the old product.
FAQ is no longer meaningful, so GW removes it.

This is how they do it for codices, why would they do it differently for other books?

Just because it was a WD article doesn't mean it's immune to the same 'updates will cost money' approach that applies to codices. Skies of death is different in that it has less faction specific content than a codex, but it does still offer an amount of content beyond just one flyer. And it costs a lot less than a codex. It doesn't cost less enough, but it could have been so much worse.

Because unlike a codex this is one model as opposed to normally 30 for regular game material. This has never been done before by GW. Go ahead name one time that a regular item had to have rules bought exclusively for itself multiple times? I can't think of one time in the 15 years or so I have been with GW. Sure put a unit in WD and then online till integrated with a completely over-hauled Codex/Army book. But have people pay for rules in a white dwarf, then pay again for them separately, then once again when they are added to a new over-hauled codex? nope, that's a first. Even books like Apoc and such don't really have you pay for extra rules twice, between major updates, unless your calling tweaking a single unit a major update. And the WD Annuals really didn't have many single model rules in them, think maybe the doom rider in the one but that had quite a few rules for Chaos as well.

ehlijen
28-02-2013, 05:08
Because unlike a codex this is one model as opposed to normally 30 for regular game material. This has never been done before by GW. Go ahead name one time that a regular item had to have rules bought exclusively for itself multiple times? I can't think of one time in the 15 years or so I have been with GW. Sure put a unit in WD and then online till integrated with a completely over-hauled Codex/Army book. But have people pay for rules in a white dwarf, then pay again for them separately, then once again when they are added to a new over-hauled codex? nope, that's a first. Even books like Apoc and such don't really have you pay for extra rules twice, between major updates, unless your calling tweaking a single unit a major update. And the WD Annuals really didn't have many single model rules in them, think maybe the doom rider in the one but that had quite a few rules for Chaos as well.

Neither the WD article nor skies of death is just one unit. The WD article was 4 different flyers (Talon, Blitzbomma, Burnbomma, Dakkajet) and the skies of death book also has missions and expansion rules.

As for an example: Thunderbolt fighter. Assume I bought one during IA1 times and that I want nothing else from the book. Then I'd have had to buy the Apoc book for the latest rules when those came out, even if I didn't want to play apoc. Then I had to buy IA:Aeronautica just to keep compatible with 6th ed and I still don't want any other flyers.

The ork flyers, for the moment, are optional expansions much like FW units. Only that GW makes them and releases the optional books that have their rules. They should put them in the codex, yes, and they likely will when that codex gets made. Until then, they are expansion book material.

Mastodon
28-02-2013, 05:55
Neither the WD article nor skies of death is just one unit. The WD article was 4 different flyers (Talon, Blitzbomma, Burnbomma, Dakkajet) and the skies of death book also has missions and expansion rules.

As for an example: Thunderbolt fighter. Assume I bought one during IA1 times and that I want nothing else from the book. Then I'd have had to buy the Apoc book for the latest rules when those came out, even if I didn't want to play apoc. Then I had to buy IA:Aeronautica just to keep compatible with 6th ed and I still don't want any other flyers.

The ork flyers, for the moment, are optional expansions much like FW units. Only that GW makes them and releases the optional books that have their rules. They should put them in the codex, yes, and they likely will when that codex gets made. Until then, they are expansion book material.

This is a really good post that sums up my issue with people complaining about this.

The book isnt mandatory, its optional. GW chose to release some cool models 1-2 years before their respective codex updates so those players could have something new. Until it shows up in the next book it is still an optional expansion. Want to use the flyer? Buy the book. Dont want to use the flyer? Ignore it.

AGC
28-02-2013, 08:16
Want to use the flyer? Buy the book...

So long as you speak english and it happens to be in stock of course. Otherwise...

f2k
28-02-2013, 08:29
Want to use the flyer? Buy the book. Dont want to use the flyer? Ignore it.

Or you just want to be up-to-date on the rules so your next opponent doesn't pull a fast one on you...

Personally, I'm all for simply ignoring flyers. As it is, I don't think the belong in the game as it is - and in any case, I bought mine for a modelling project, not to game with it. But for better or worse, flyers are now a part of the core-rules. To ignore them makes about as much sense as to ignore, say, the close combat rules.