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Dark Primus
27-02-2013, 01:20
I do find the new Daemon models kinda nice and I will probably buy a few but it's still a little bit of a lack luster, knowing GW can do them so much better, I get the feeling we didn't get to see the model designers truly shine in creativity here. And there's the influence of Fantasy in there too that might have an impact upon the Daemon models, I don't know if that holds them back.

If GW were to split them up, design the models for the Fantasy army only and models for the 40K army only and treat them as two seperate armies instead the same army with the same models with different stats and rules.
I would love to see how creative the models can become for 40k side, don't know if it would help in the long run, or if it would make it worse.
Do you say nay or yay for the idea of splitting them up and let them go their own seperate ways?

Zothos
27-02-2013, 01:29
Quite frankly I think keeping them together is sillier for Fantasy than 40k.

Kamin_Majere
27-02-2013, 01:51
Do you expect them to have lascannons and power armor?

A deamon is a thing of coalesced warp stuff with teeth and claws and occasionally swords, why would there be any real difference between the two? I doubt most deamons are even aware of what "time frame" they pop out at because for something that is immortal and can just come back later/sooner/some other form of time we can't conceptualize; the models and the concept works fine.

I mean even with their "rules" a demolisher cannon has just as much effect on a demon as an arrow so its not like they have to kit up differently if they are popping out against elves one day and tau the day before/after (more so than the difference in rules that they already get)

Imperialis_Dominatus
27-02-2013, 02:23
Well:

1. The background makes it fairly clear that the same Daemons who run around in the Wastes end up popping through Warp rifts sometimes.

2. It helps establish one of those really '40k' things, thematically, for there to be spaceships and lasers and OH GOD EMPEROR A SMOKING SWORD JUST POPPED OUT OF THE HUMAN FAX MACHINE'S HEAD!

3. GW's got literally no financial incentive to do so.

So... good luck.

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 02:23
Do you expect them to have lascannons and power armor?


Honestly, yes. We already have defilers, soulgrinders, plague drones, helldrakes, forgefiends, deamon princes and obliterators.

Deamons are nightmares come true and nightmares of 40k forgeworld serfs and fantasy empire peasants would be different. There is indeed room to have more distinct ranges for the two settings. But GW makes more profit by selling the same models twice as selling twice as many models half as much each. So seeing as using the same range is passable, it's the economically wise decision. Now if they'd just stop pretending that the soulgrinder is a fantasy fitting model...

MajorWesJanson
27-02-2013, 02:43
Daemons also highly benefit from being a cross system army, as they can provide players a gateway between the two systems, encouraging them to buy more books and potentially more models.

Col. Tartleton
27-02-2013, 02:48
Imperial Guardsmen and State Troops are the same thing, humans with guns and a little armor and they play a similar role, but they don't look very similar.

I think they'd be able to do a much better job conceptually if they put some daylight between 40k chaos aesthetics and WHFB chaos aesthetics.

The Emperor
27-02-2013, 05:54
State Troops are soldiers for a Renaissance level human power on a single world. Imperial Guard are human soldiers for a space age society. Not the same.

Daemons of Chaos are coalesced warp entities which serve the four Chaos Powers of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. Chaos Daemons are coalesced warp entities which serve the four Chaos Powers of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. THAT is the same, and there's no reason for them to look any different.

ehlijen
27-02-2013, 07:30
If you completely leave out the potential for possesed 40k creatures and warmachines, sure.

Grocklock
27-02-2013, 07:37
The only thing I could possible see is if they release a bits back with fantasy bits 40k bits that you could decorate the model with.

But I really like that they show up in both worlds,
It just makes me laugh that the deamons crush entire systems in 40k but cannot take one planet in fantasy

Col. Tartleton
27-02-2013, 07:55
State Troops are soldiers for a Renaissance level human power on a single world. Imperial Guard are human soldiers for a space age society. Not the same.

Daemons of Chaos are coalesced warp entities which serve the four Chaos Powers of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. Chaos Daemons are coalesced warp entities which serve the four Chaos Powers of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. THAT is the same, and there's no reason for them to look any different.

Fantasy Daemons are demonic soldiers for a renaissance level demonic power on a single world. 40k Daemons are demonic soldiers for a space age society. Not the same.

CW Eldar - High Elves
Exodites - Wood Elves
Dark Eldar - Dark Elves
Imperial Guard - Empire
Sisters of Battle - Bretonnia
Necrons - Tomb Kings
Chaos Space Marines - Warriors of Chaos
Chaos Daemons - Daemons of Chaos :D

I think there can be a healthy division.

Gingerwerewolf
27-02-2013, 08:44
Sorry but I disagree

Storyline wise its great - especially the anachronism of the Daemon in a futuristic universe. Its what makes 40k grim dark for me

And Production wise its even better. They produce stuff for one system and automatically get it for the other. Its a 2 for one scenario!

We, as GW fanbois have had 2 massive army releases this month - its efficient and great.

So sorry, I whole heartedly disagree - Keep the cross over system. I for one am miffed that the Warhammer World is no longer in the 40k universe hidden by warp storms..

The Marshel
27-02-2013, 09:09
State Troops are soldiers for a Renaissance level human power on a single world. Imperial Guard are human soldiers for a space age society. Not the same.

Daemons of Chaos are coalesced warp entities which serve the four Chaos Powers of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. Chaos Daemons are coalesced warp entities which serve the four Chaos Powers of Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. THAT is the same, and there's no reason for them to look any different.

for certain troops i can deff agree with you, basic bloodleters, deamonettes, plauge bearers and pink horrors all make plenty of sense looking the same. Blood crushers and greater deamons all look fine too. There are however a lot of areas where each could expand upon if they didn't have to worry about the others influence. Soul grinders in fantasy is just a tad ridiculous don't you think. These are great big monsterous machines, and quite clearly very mechanical indeed. As a fantasy unit they just don't look right. Similarly, the khorne cannon may be able to fit in reasonably well in the fatasy setting, but no matter how you look at it it doesnt really look like the kind of thing you'd see khorne deamons using in a universe where everything else has way more powerful guns.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that they should be entirely separate entities, with all 40k deamons separate kits to all fantasy deamons, but if there were room for a handful of kits that make that specific distinction both sides of the army could benefit both aesthetically and rules wise.

As for this whole "deamons are coalesced warp stuff and can be anything, anywhere" thing is just a cop out. It's only that way so gw can justify the army wide cross compatibility thing. Plus I'm pretty sure there has never been a 100% definitive link between the 40k setting and the fantasy setting. Plenty of subtle and less subtle hinting yeah, but a more speculative thing than a firm canon fact.

Leogun_91
27-02-2013, 09:33
The only thing I could possible see is if they release a bits back with fantasy bits 40k bits that you could decorate the model with.

But I really like that they show up in both worlds,
It just makes me laugh that the deamons crush entire systems in 40k but cannot take one planet in fantasyThey got an anti-daemon vortex working on weakening them in fantasy so it's a pretty hard world to take, just as in 40k they can destroy entire systems but would still fail to take that single moon named Titan.

for certain troops i can deff agree with you, basic bloodleters, deamonettes, plauge bearers and pink horrors all make plenty of sense looking the same. Blood crushers and greater deamons all look fine too. There are however a lot of areas where each could expand upon if they didn't have to worry about the others influence. Soul grinders in fantasy is just a tad ridiculous don't you think. These are great big monsterous machines, and quite clearly very mechanical indeed. As a fantasy unit they just don't look right. Similarly, the khorne cannon may be able to fit in reasonably well in the fatasy setting, but no matter how you look at it it doesnt really look like the kind of thing you'd see khorne deamons using in a universe where everything else has way more powerful guns.Moving the Soul Grinder to fantasy was a stupid move, I have yet to meet a person who doesn't hate it. There is room to make different units in that way and I would suggest the old classical dual kit as the savior here, buy a kit and assemble it either as fantasy daemon unit X or 40k daemon unit Y. This way simultaneous release is possible, the kit would sell to people wishing either and some extra stuff to make them visually different would be possible.

Don't care that much though, the important thing is that I just got new rules for my daemons, been waiting so long.

Gingerwerewolf
27-02-2013, 13:14
As for this whole "deamons are coalesced warp stuff and can be anything, anywhere" thing is just a cop out. It's only that way so gw can justify the army wide cross compatibility thing. Plus I'm pretty sure there has never been a 100% definitive link between the 40k setting and the fantasy setting. Plenty of subtle and less subtle hinting yeah, but a more speculative thing than a firm canon fact.

May I ask how long you have played this game? Id guess less than 10 years - as what you have said there is completely wrong.

The Details of Daemons of Chaos were added to Both Systems at the same time - Via a pair of books called "The Realms of Chaos" where all the things that we take for granted about the Chaos Gods, were first set to paper.

-Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_of_Chaos_%28Warhammer%29

There was the Slaves to Darkness Book, which dealt with the Horus Heresy in addition to the Daemons of Slaanesh and Khorne. IIRC it came out first. Then there was The Lost and the Damned which had Nurgle and Tzeench in it.

However if you want a more current reference there are the four Black Library books that make up the Liber Chaotica - Liber Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeench respectively. That book details the ravings of a man from the Empire of the Old World who reads and dreams and studies the four powers of chaos. During one of his research sessions into Slaanesh he talks about the Creation of Slaanesh and the fall of the Eldar.

- Source - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Liber_Chaotica#.US4FYZ6jK4o

How much more could they be linked?

Im sorry but Chaos is the very heart of 40k AND Fantasy, and without it being in both they would be far lesser systems. And as for the Cannon of Khorne not being a suitable weapon for 40k, there's been Cannons of Khorne in the history for years and there has been Mechanical monstrosities in Fantasy as well.

The History of GWs universe is the one universal thing that every gamer comes back to - even if the rules end up being a bit rubbish, the character and combined stories of the 2 universes are sacrosanct!


Moving the Soul Grinder to fantasy was a stupid move, I have yet to meet a person who doesn't hate it.

Admittedly we've never met (that I know of) but I do not hate it at all. I think its incredibly appropriate - Chaos is Anarchonistic in every way and this sums it up.

But then again I played games of Fantasy and 40k where I used the other systems models because there was rules for them in the above books back in the early nineties..

Col. Tartleton
27-02-2013, 13:25
They're still different universes...

The Eldar and Elven pantheons are different.

Asuryan, Khaine, Morai-Heg, Vaul, Isha, Kurnous are included but not the exact same ones. Leoc is not Cegorach.

Or should High Elves get shuriken catapults and mesh armor? Obviously they're Exodites after all...

They aren't.

Liber Chaotica is maximum heresy.

IcedCrow
27-02-2013, 13:29
To the concept of splitting demons apart: I'm against this. They provide a great bridge between the two systems and allow a player to collect an army that can be used in both systems.

Moving soul grinders, etc into fantasy I have no problem with. After all, fantasy is a world with dragons and monsters. A soul grinder fits that just fine.

budman
27-02-2013, 13:35
They're still different universes...

The Eldar and Elven pantheons are different.

Asuryan, Khaine, Morai-Heg, Vaul, Isha, Kurnous are included but not the exact same ones. Leoc is not Cegorach.

Or should High Elves get shuriken catapults? Obviously they're Exodites after all...

They aren't.

They are... but 20,000 years cut off in the warp is gonna mess with you
The WFRB setting is a just a low tech 40K world in the warp in all but name.
Come on one magic item is a powerfist. and another that was a metlagun. gw appoved.
At least one sup makes note that sigmar is a primarch.
I still rember a group that ran a wfrp game that the heroes came across Nids.

Mauler
27-02-2013, 14:26
Nah, that's what the Chaos Marine codex is for. If it's a daemon engine or related to power armour then it's in there. If not, then mostly it's not.

I love the fact that daemons provide a solid link from Fantasy to 40k, it's a nice bit of consistency.


To the concept of splitting demons apart: I'm against this. They provide a great bridge between the two systems and allow a player to collect an army that can be used in both systems.

Moving soul grinders, etc into fantasy I have no problem with. After all, fantasy is a world with dragons and monsters. A soul grinder fits that just fine.

I could've just quoted this for great trvth.

Wishing
27-02-2013, 15:21
Im sorry but Chaos is the very heart of 40k AND Fantasy, and without it being in both they would be far lesser systems.

I have to agree with this. Yes, having daemons span the two systems is really weird. But this weirdness really is at the core of the history of WHFB and 40k. Just like how space orks are fantasy orcs in space. It's where 40k comes from. Wanting to separate 40k from its past does reduce it to something less in my view.

I also think that one of the core themes of 40k is anachronism. 40k is steeped in medieval gothic imagery. The daemons being medieval gothic fantasy creatures is a part of that.

Konovalev
27-02-2013, 15:29
I think Daemons shouldn't be split. If you want more 40k'esque Chaos units, use Chaos Space Marines, or ally CSM units into a Daemon army. I think daemons have this "unchanged timeless enemy" thing going for them, and I like that. Time, ideaology, and technology may change but the dark gods are still there and a demonic hellsword cuts space titanium crafted in a factory just as well as iron forged on coals.

Leogun_91
27-02-2013, 22:56
Liber Chaotica is maximum heresy.Most appropriate don't you say?

Worship
28-02-2013, 00:05
...I don't think anyone is trying to say that they should be entirely separate entities, with all 40k deamons separate kits to all fantasy deamons, but if there were room for a handful of kits that make that specific distinction both sides of the army could benefit both aesthetically and rules wise....

This really. A few spare parts for some of the kits would be all that's needed. For example, the Khorne cannon looks like it'd fit in the Fantasy realm- if they included a more mechnical looking cannon in the kit for 40k, that would fit the look a little more.

MajorWesJanson
28-02-2013, 03:28
This really. A few spare parts for some of the kits would be all that's needed. For example, the Khorne cannon looks like it'd fit in the Fantasy realm- if they included a more mechnical looking cannon in the kit for 40k, that would fit the look a little more.

People already complain that it looks out of place in fantasy because it is a daemonic segway. It works fine as a techno-organic weapon. Tyranids are 40K despite no mechanical parts themselves.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-02-2013, 06:44
The Cannon of Khorne doesn't look like it would fit anywhere on account of just not being that good, but if anything it looks way more 40k than Fantasy to me.

I do think that both ranges could benefit from a few unique units, but there is little incentive for GW to produce such units whewn with a little planning you can make cross-compatible units and increase your target audience.

In any case 40k is really not that far removed from aspects of WFB like the Empire and Warriors and Beasts of Chaos on account of 40k being gothic/baroque space fantasy rather than SciFi. There are certainly modern flashes and inspirations, but futuristic it is not.

JWhex
28-02-2013, 07:27
I think there should be broad overlap between the 40k/fantasy demon models. However, the soul grinder does not belong in fantasy, its GW though and it is hard to fight their stupidity.

Malagor
28-02-2013, 07:52
I don't think they should split. It offers so much possibilities in terms of stories and units.
Afterall both worlds were created by the old ones and it's very easy to explain their disappearance in both world on the necrons.
I personally like the idea that both worlds are set during the same time but the Fantasy world is stuck in a warpstorm or something so the Imperium can't get to them.
Such ideas are made possible by having the daemons linking the two together and would be a huge shame if that link would be severed.

RevEv
28-02-2013, 08:13
Why? It makes no sense for either an economic or an aesthetic reason.

With the coordinated release of Daemons for 40k and Fantasy two groups of gamers are provided for for a minimal cost to GW as they only have one set of development costs for two armies. Also, as already stated, Daemons are Daemons whatever the game.

If the OP really wants Daemons to stand out in his own games maybe he should try converting some himself although, I have to add, I don't see what he could do to distinguish between the two types or even why.

budman
28-02-2013, 08:14
I personally like the idea that both worlds are set during the same time but the Fantasy world is stuck in a warpstorm or something so the Imperium can't get to them.
Such ideas are made possible by having the daemons linking the two together and would be a huge shame if that link would be severed.

Well it's canon till it's not...

Inquisitor Shego
28-02-2013, 08:21
I feel the Soul Grinder in Fantasy looks daft. I think the Skull Cannon and Chariot flood in 40k looks just as bad. That's just me but I feel the tether between 40k and Fantasy shackles both armies. It's like a three legged race, where if Fantasy/40K wants to move, it has to drag the other one along.

ChrisMurray
28-02-2013, 16:45
I think they are fine without being split. The only thing I would have liked is maybe one or two units that are exclusive to 40k and one or two to fantasy. That way fantasy could have things like daemon dragons or something and 40k could have a couple more daemon engines (look at the FW models, clearly for the 40k setting). As to the chariots I like having them in both settings.

Wishing
28-02-2013, 17:24
Tyranids are 40K despite no mechanical parts themselves.

It's funny to think about Tyranids really and how their kind of monstrosity is a distinctly sci-fi kind, not a fantasy kind. The reason they look like sci-fi aliens and not like fantasy dungeon monsters is due to their "evolution" theme I guess, where they look like insects that have evolved into pseudo-humanoidness, not like something a wizard made in his magic cauldron. Plus that they have organic guns.