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Cooper97
28-02-2013, 01:24
I have a small lizardmen army and was thinking of starting to continue them but i am really not sure what they are good at. I was reading the army book and they have some alright units but nothing that is really powerful. They have great magical abilities yes but if you kill the slaan mage priest then they don't have much else. Please help me decide wether or not I want to continue with this army.

Orchid
28-02-2013, 02:07
Saurus warriors are awesome tough core, Salamanders let you pack some punch in the shooting phase, Slaan Mage with Temple guard, formidable Magic and CC block, and tons of skinks putting out a high rate of poison shots...

They have plenty.

Don Zeko
28-02-2013, 02:23
They have probably the strongest magic phase in the entire game. Skinks and salamanders provide an excellent shooting phase, and saurus are perfectly decent infantry. Plus, scar vets on cold ones are a great utility unit.

Grndhog89
28-02-2013, 02:25
Sorry, this so OT but.....no one is going to reference that song the topic vaguely echoes? "what is it good for!?" "Absolutely nothing!"

JWhex
28-02-2013, 02:27
Lizardmen are a very solid army, cold blooded is one of the best rules in the game. LM can be very active and competitive in every phase of the turn, moving, shooting, magic and combat.

Cooper97
28-02-2013, 03:37
Yeah I guess i forgot about the salamanders. They are alright. They would be better if they had some form of artillery and some stronger shooting but i guess they are solid. Any suggestions for an army list?

Terrenord
28-02-2013, 04:30
Not all the named characters are any good, but Lord Kroak can win games if you can get him in close with a block of temple guard. Especially if you roll high on the winds of magic. Lizards are awesome.

Laniston
28-02-2013, 05:40
They look really cool too.

Also they are getting a new army book sometime this year if rumors are true. But for now they seem like a really solid army. Not too many crazy out there choices, just good solid stuff. And yeah cold-blooded is awesome. Plus you get a big dinosaur. Who wouldn't want that?

Brother Haephestus
28-02-2013, 05:42
Sorry, this so OT but.....no one is going to reference that song the topic vaguely echoes? "what is it good for!?" "Absolutely nothing!"I was 30 seconds from doing that myself! ROFL! But the scalies are actually not a bad army at all.

Don Zeko
28-02-2013, 05:44
Yeah I guess i forgot about the salamanders. They are alright. They would be better if they had some form of artillery and some stronger shooting but i guess they are solid. Any suggestions for an army list?

Stronger shooting? Dude, lizardmen shooting is very strong as it is. Don't underrate those poisoned blowpipes.

Charistoph
28-02-2013, 06:01
Stronger shooting? Dude, lizardmen shooting is very strong as it is. Don't underrate those poisoned blowpipes.

Yeah, the biggest weakness with Lizardmen shooting is the range. You have Blowpipes, but they aren't much better than a pistol. There are Javelins... And then there is the Salamanders, Razordons, and Stegadons. Of those, the Bolt Thrower has the best range followed by the Salamander.

But I will admit if Skinks had access to Short Bows again, they would probably be too expensive to field,

Urgat
28-02-2013, 09:46
I heard they're very useful for making handbags, shoes, belts, etc :D

Vipoid
28-02-2013, 10:28
They're really good for making handbags and suitcases. ;)

Fear Ghoul
28-02-2013, 10:35
I'm not sure how you can look at an army with the one of the best wizards in the game (lots of power dice, loremaster, can bounce miscasts, and discard enemy 6's to cast), some of the best core infantry in the game (cold-blooded, multi-attack S4), lots of cheap poison shooting (blowpipes, chameleons), and walking flamethrowers and think "What is this army good at?"

Vipoid
28-02-2013, 10:39
I'm not sure how you can look at an army with the one of the best wizards in the game (lots of power dice, loremaster, can bounce miscasts, and discard enemy 6's to cast), some of the best core infantry in the game (cold-blooded, multi-attack S4), lots of cheap poison shooting (blowpipes, chameleons), and walking flamethrowers and think "What is this army good at?"

On a more serious note, Fear Ghoul raises some good points.

- Slaan are among the most powerful wizards in the game (some might even say *the* most powerful), and have access to magic-boosting powers that most other races can only dream of.

- Skinks are very good, considering their minute cost, and their poisoned shots make them amazing against a lot of monsters and the like.

Whaagnomore
28-02-2013, 10:44
Lizardmen probably have the overall most mobile army in the game, loads of somewhat cheap skirmish troops that really lets you control the flow of battle, if I ever come up against an enemy unit I can't beat, I chaff it all the way to the chaos wastes.
Unless one is up against an army with alot of artillery the engine is a really good and solid choice.
On the "no strong shooting-issue", I haven't really felt that at all, if there is a problem with LM-shooting it's the overall short range when up against fast armies, but only sometimes.
An important note: How one builds his/her slann is key to the rest of the army, especially the lore choice, a death-slann is best solo and thus you can't bring any temple-guards + you want alot of chaff to redirect, a life-slann will do best bunkered in temple-guards and you can probably bring stegs even though your opponent brings cannons.
My very favourite build is the Lore of beasts-slann with fencers blades, war banner and a power stone, in this list I bring 12 individual skink chiefs each equipped with a shield and a javelin. Savage beast of horros on 9 dice often gives you IF and then you got BS 5 S7 javelins + any skink chief who is in melee is a monster.

Qupakoco
28-02-2013, 17:36
I heard they're very useful for making handbags, shoes, belts, etc :D HA! Yes.

I don't think range is really an issue with LM. Skinks can move, march, and shoot for an effective range of 24". Just as good as a bow IMO, plus they're poisoned if you don't double-tap. And don't forget Chameleons and Terradons.

Javelins are amazing. Quick-to-Fire on Skirmishers means you usually get to hit on a 5+. And if the Skinks are charged they ALWAYS get to throw them, regardless of the range.

The Ancient Steg has the Giant Blowpipes. 4D6 poisoned shots? Yes please.

Salamander range is his movement + whatever you roll + the flame template. Potentially ~29", but you are just as likely to lose your handlers. The sweet spot for Salamanders is 7" from the target.

Spiney Norman
28-02-2013, 17:56
They have probably the strongest magic phase in the entire game. Skinks and salamanders provide an excellent shooting phase, and saurus are perfectly decent infantry. Plus, scar vets on cold ones are a great utility unit.

I would contest that they have the second strongest magic phase in the game, no Slann build can challenge Teclis backed by the banner of sorcery.

To the original question: Lizardmen are potentially good at everything, but they cannot be good at everything at once, so you will need to choose.

The army does have weaknesses, these are an almost total lack of long range shooting, poor WS on your combat troops (with the possible exception of Temple Guard and Saurus cavalry) and poor initiative on anything that isn't a skink.

If you want strong magic - take a Slann
If you want lots of big monsters - Stegadon and carnosaurs
If you want lots of harassing Skirmishers - skinks
If you want large blocks of rock hard combat infantry - Saurus.

There are a few "non-choices" in the book, ranked skinks are pretty useless (even when accompanied by Kroxigor), jungle swarms are worse than useless and Saurus cavalry isn't too hot either.

You'll notice that pretty much everything in the Lizardmen bookis quite pricey, so you'll have to decide what you want your force to do and stick to that, if you try and make a jack-of-all-trades Lizardmen army you'll end up watering down the strengths until there aren't any.

There are two armies that I like running in this edition, a tricked out Slann accompanied by Temple Guard and two large blocks of Saurus, supported by skinks, Salamanders and a Kroxigor hammer. I also enjoy using a "Monster-mash" list with an old blood on a carnosaur, a priest on an engine of the gods, Saurus up to minimum core and the rest of the points spent on stegs.

Rudra34
28-02-2013, 17:59
Sorry, this so OT but.....no one is going to reference that song the topic vaguely echoes? "what is it good for!?" "Absolutely nothing!"

I instantly thought of this. War! Huh! Yeah! What is it good for?! Absolutely nothing!! WAAAA!!!!!


Ah-hem, anyway... Lizards are a very solid army with lots of fun builds. I used to see mainly forces with two big blocks of saurus, a block of temple guard with slann, and some salamanders for major annoyance. Now I see more armies with loads of skink skirmishers, stegs, an ethereal slann on it's own, and maybe a block or two of saurus for some punch. Both lists preform well, and the army looks great on the table top.

kylek2235
28-02-2013, 18:04
Besides all of the other excellent suggestions in this thread, what about Grimloq the Dinobot?! He is clearly more than meets the eye!

Don Zeko
28-02-2013, 18:14
I would contest that they have the second strongest magic phase in the game, no Slann build can challenge Teclis backed by the banner of sorcery.

OK, how about "in an environment that doesn't allow special characters, they have probably the best magic phase in the game?"

3eland
28-02-2013, 18:21
^
+1 to what Don Zeko says

Shadowfane
28-02-2013, 18:25
Absolutely nothing! (Say it again!)
Ahem, now I've stopped misquoting songs - Lizardmen are still one of the better armies out there. Sure, they have their weaknesses (initiative, some of the price tags, etc), but they also have several strengths, as have already been said before me.

Charistoph
28-02-2013, 19:59
Besides all of the other excellent suggestions in this thread, what about Grimloq the Dinobot?! He is clearly more than meets the eye!

Don't forget Zlaaq and Zwup! They're in there, too.

Now how to fit Zlugg and Znarl...

Terrenord
28-02-2013, 21:15
If you can fit them all on the same list they should combine into Godzilla.

kefkah
28-02-2013, 21:21
One of the scariest list ive had to play against is the double slann (death and life, or death and heavens/light) with loremaster and extra pd on the death. Alot of skirmishers, chamelons, and saurus block. Dont remember if he had engine of the gods or a regular steg, but thats a very hard list to play against.

Cooper97
28-02-2013, 22:33
Ok, you guys have made your point, I seriously underestimated the power of the big blue blokes. I didn't thoroughly read the army book. Guess it's back to the drawing board for me. Also anyone have good army list suggestions so that I can enter a 2000 point campaign tournament. THe other armies are chaos. Empire x2, skaven x2, tomb kings, ogre kingdoms x2, high elves, dark elves, orcs and me.

Terrenord
01-03-2013, 00:09
Slann in temple guard
Two blocks of Saurus
Two chameleon groups
Two salamander packs

Play with the numbers for point levels

My Slann always has Becalming, focused rumination, and focus of mystery. Cupped hands is a must though.

JWhex
01-03-2013, 10:02
Slann in temple guard
Two blocks of Saurus
Two chameleon groups
Two salamander packs

Play with the numbers for point levels

My Slann always has Becalming, focused rumination, and focus of mystery. Cupped hands is a must though.

This is similar to what I use but I find regular skirmish skinks get the same job done for fewer points.

BigbyWolf
01-03-2013, 10:26
Well, I don't know how good it is, but I've found them fun for collecting an all-mounted army...provided you want to go without a Slann.

Whaagnomore
01-03-2013, 10:36
Well, I don't know how good it is, but I've found them fun for collecting an all-mounted army...provided you want to go without a Slann.

How would you do this? LM has no mounted core.

Terrenord
01-03-2013, 10:58
How would you do this? LM has no mounted core.

If you take Krok Gar, Cold One cav becomes core.

BigbyWolf
01-03-2013, 11:25
How would you do this? LM has no mounted core.


If you take Krok Gar, Cold One cav becomes core.

Terrenord has it correct. Means I have to run a 3K+ list, but cold-blooded hordes of Cold Ones backed up by Stegadons are a lot of fun.

Whaagnomore
01-03-2013, 13:44
Ah, forgot about old Krok, never play with special chars, on that note, it may only be me, but i find both the carnosaur and cold ones to be terrible, the carnosaur is just too fragile to function as a leader-mount, cold-one cav are overcosted and get beaten by many lower-cost cavalry units.

Deaf Paradox
01-03-2013, 14:04
Sorry for the OT but the thread title made me think of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41cJUliIuH0

Lol

BigbyWolf
01-03-2013, 14:27
Ah, forgot about old Krok, never play with special chars, on that note, it may only be me, but i find both the carnosaur and cold ones to be terrible, the carnosaur is just too fragile to function as a leader-mount, cold-one cav are overcosted and get beaten by many lower-cost cavalry units.

Pretty much. The only benefit they have is the Cold Blooded rule helps them stick in combat more then normal cavalry might, and having a couple of decent strength attacks isn't bad for subsequent rounds of combat.

It's certainly not a theme that most people would like, but I'm a lunatic that tries to play with gimmicky lists, so it works for me.:yes:

Terrenord
01-03-2013, 15:41
Cold Ones are alright. They give a 2+ save and are cold blooded. They just suffer from a lack of steadfast without ranks. I think cavalry models and monsters should count as two ranks for that.

Clockwork
01-03-2013, 17:17
[QUOTE=Spiney Norman;6661015
There are a few "non-choices" in the book, ranked skinks are pretty useless (even when accompanied by Kroxigor)[/QUOTE]

Don't listen to this. Ranked Skinks with Kroxigor are an excellent choice as they compliment each other perfectly: the skinks will give you cheap ranks and absorb damage for the slow and vulnerable Kroxigor (who can't be targeted in combat unless in base contact), whilst the Kroxigor will provided much needed strength 6 support to the army which isn't otherwise available outside of characters and Ancient Stegadons. The unit also causes fear, is immune to fear and stomping of all kinds, is wrapped up with a nice movement 6, and on top of that counts as core. They are effectively a 250-300 point counter to cavalry and monsters, but even a 24/3 strong unit will enjoy smashing infantry. Throw in Light or Life buffs and you're on to a winner.

Units of 10 ranked skinks also make for effective redirectors with more wounds than Swarms and cheaper than their Skirmishing brothers.

There are, however, certain sub-optimal choices. Saurus Cavalry, sadly, are overcosted for what they do; even with 2+ T4 coldblooded, their initiative 2 means most things you want to throw them in to are going to attack first, and with their low weapon skill will probably get hit on 3s. Stegadons will do what they do better and for less. Some people have success with Swarms because they are fairly cheap, but I tend to think that there's better alternatives to them in the book. Carnosaurs, sadly, also aren't really worth the paper they are written on.

For more info, check out http://www.lustria-online.com/

Terrenord
01-03-2013, 18:49
I agree with the last, even though I've had terrible luck with Skrox units.

Charistoph
01-03-2013, 19:19
If you take Krok Gar, Cold One cav becomes core.

Keep in mind, Kroq-Gar only makes ONE Cold One Cavalry unit Core, not all.

Hopefully the next book sees an alternative to this, like Ghorros, maybe?

BigbyWolf
02-03-2013, 10:18
Keep in mind, Kroq-Gar only makes ONE Cold One Cavalry unit Core, not all.

Hopefully the next book sees an alternative to this, like Ghorros, maybe?

Yeah, but if you take one big unit, you can easily fill the core requirement. ;)

Clockwork
02-03-2013, 11:14
I agree with the last, even though I've had terrible luck with Skrox units.

They generally have specific targets that they want to engage: in descending order the target priority is something like cavalry > chariots > monsters > monstrous infantry > monstrous cavalry > T4/4+ amour save infantry > all other infantry. Of course, if you can combine them with a redirecting skirmisher unit to get into the flank of something all the better, but that's true for almost anything.

To cite a recent example, my Skirmishers forced 6 Skullcrushers to charge and then overrun, pulling them out at such an angle that they presented a flank to the Skroxigor. They went in and lost 5 Skinks but killed a Skullcrusher, which gave them just enough CR to break the enemy unit and run them off the table. Not even a problem. Now the only other unit in the army that could have done something like that would have been some Saurus Warriors (generating ranks but no wounds) and a Scar-Vet (generating some wounds), or maybe a Stegadon supported by something, which would have been much more points.

Essentially they fulfill a very particular niche giving you a few very high strength attacks but lots of ranks and protection for those attack.

MR. GRUMPY
02-03-2013, 12:13
Possibly the strongest army in the game.. what are they not good at should be your question. And deeming salamanders only alright? :/ You demand much.

Spiney Norman
03-03-2013, 15:18
Yeah, but if you take one big unit, you can easily fill the core requirement. ;)

The unit doesn't even need to be that big, 20 will easily sort you out for core req up to 3000 pts. Saurus cavalry are damn expensive.

Spiney Norman
03-03-2013, 15:25
Don't listen to this. Ranked Skinks with Kroxigor are an excellent choice as they compliment each other perfectly: the skinks will give you cheap ranks and absorb damage for the slow and vulnerable Kroxigor (who can't be targeted in combat unless in base contact), whilst the Kroxigor will provided much needed strength 6 support to the army which isn't otherwise available outside of characters and Ancient Stegadons. The unit also causes fear, is immune to fear and stomping of all kinds, is wrapped up with a nice movement 6, and on top of that counts as core. They are effectively a 250-300 point counter to cavalry and monsters, but even a 24/3 strong unit will enjoy smashing infantry. Throw in Light or Life buffs and you're on to a winner.

Units of 10 ranked skinks also make for effective redirectors with more wounds than Swarms and cheaper than their Skirmishing brothers.

There are, however, certain sub-optimal choices. Saurus Cavalry, sadly, are overcosted for what they do; even with 2+ T4 coldblooded, their initiative 2 means most things you want to throw them in to are going to attack first, and with their low weapon skill will probably get hit on 3s. Stegadons will do what they do better and for less. Some people have success with Swarms because they are fairly cheap, but I tend to think that there's better alternatives to them in the book. Carnosaurs, sadly, also aren't really worth the paper they are written on.

For more info, check out http://www.lustria-online.com/

All that skinks provide is a ready supply of very easy active combat res for enemy units. Krox may be str 6, but they have a low WS and not that many attacks (esp given that with as few as three you already have a massive unit) to counter the 10+ skinks that are going to get diced by almost any enemy unit. They might provide a meat shield for enemies to cut through before they can hit the Krox, but good luck winning combat when you're losing 10 CR worth of skinks or more every round.

Kroxigor on their own are much, much more useful than skinkrox. You can field 6 of them with a smaller frontage than the skinkrox, take many fewer casualties and hit out with many more damaging attacks.

Ranked skinks do make fair redirectors, but Skirmishers do that job better, as well as being able to shoot more effectively, for not that many more points.

Clockwork
03-03-2013, 20:31
All that skinks provide is a ready supply of very easy active combat res for enemy units. Krox may be str 6, but they have a low WS and not that many attacks (esp given that with as few as three you already have a massive unit) to counter the 10+ skinks that are going to get diced by almost any enemy unit. They might provide a meat shield for enemies to cut through before they can hit the Krox, but good luck winning combat when you're losing 10 CR worth of skinks or more every round.

As I said, you have to be considerate with your targets for Skroxigor units. Running them into some Khorne Warriors is a bad idea, because you are only going to be getting a few wounds from your few strength 6 attacks but losing bucket loads of skinks, as you pointed out.

But if you run them into a unit of cavalry, you'll only be taking heavy losses on the first turn, and not enough for the enemy to break your own steadfast. Meanwhile, every wound you do chip off is significant because cavalry usually have few models: it will deny attacks back; slowly drain the unit; and remove their ranks (meaning your steadfast lasts longer and they get less combat resolution). They do this just as well against anything that has few models but relies on high toughness/armour, including monsters, monstrous infantry and monstrous cavalry.

If you are steadfast, and with the Kroxigor providing 2 ranks each you will be for some time, even losing a rank each round of combat, it doesn't matter if you are losing the combat overall. In effect, they tarpit units which really want to smash into you, win the combat and move on; but unlike most tarpitters, they will also inflict considerable damage.



Kroxigor on their own are much, much more useful than skinkrox. You can field 6 of them with a smaller frontage than the skinkrox, take many fewer casualties and hit out with many more damaging attacks.

For you, maybe. But I find 300 points extremely expensive for something that is so vulnerable. They'll suffer more to ranged and magical attacks than the combined unit; chances are Kroxigor will die before attacking, and they won't be able to stick around in combat nearly as long. If anything, you have to be even more careful about what solo Kroxigor engage than combined units: there aren't going to be many ideal targets that are strength 3 (so can't do much damage before the Kroxigor attack), but have high Toughness or armour save to make the most of the strength 6 attacks.

The combined unit will deliver the Kroxigor safely into combat and then give it ranks and Steadfast once it gets there. And they also fill out core.

Your point about the frontage is also wrong: 6 skinks wide is the same size as 3 Kroxigor wide. You can have 6 skinks, 3 Kroxigor, and 3 more ranks of 6 skinks and its the same frontage as 6 Kroxigor.

Glen_Savet
03-03-2013, 21:13
I've found that Skink/Krox are most effective when fighting monsters that don't have breath weapons. Generally fewer attacks for their footprint, not often stubborn, unable to thunderstomp and the fact that the Skrox cause fear means they can weather several turns of monsterfighting while the Krox chip wounds away. And the Skrox are usually fast enough at movement 6 to intercept most monsters. Dragons/Chimera notwithstanding. Those breath weapons, even str 2, are bad news.

Spiney Norman
03-03-2013, 22:46
As I said, you have to be considerate with your targets for Skroxigor units. Running them into some Khorne Warriors is a bad idea, because you are only going to be getting a few wounds from your few strength 6 attacks but losing bucket loads of skinks, as you pointed out.

But if you run them into a unit of cavalry, you'll only be taking heavy losses on the first turn, and not enough for the enemy to break your own steadfast. Meanwhile, every wound you do chip off is significant because cavalry usually have few models: it will deny attacks back; slowly drain the unit; and remove their ranks (meaning your steadfast lasts longer and they get less combat resolution). They do this just as well against anything that has few models but relies on high toughness/armour, including monsters, monstrous infantry and monstrous cavalry.

Since the enemy cavalry unit will have the movement advantage you will be hard pressed to force them to charge you, your opponent would have to be mad to send a cavalry unit against Kroxigor with or without skinks, and unless he makes a big mistake with his movement or rolls badly on a critical charge you probably won't get that opportunity (assuming you play against gamers of reasonable ability). Assuming you can always outmanoeuvre an enemy cavalry unit with a slower unit is optimistic at the very least.


If you are steadfast, and with the Kroxigor providing 2 ranks each you will be for some time, even losing a rank each round of combat, it doesn't matter if you are losing the combat overall. In effect, they tarpit units which really want to smash into you, win the combat and move on; but unlike most tarpitters, they will also inflict considerable damage.

You are only steadfast if the enemy doesn't have more ranks than you, if Im honest the only opponent I can really see Skinkrox units working against is slow-moving monsters or cavalry units that screw up their movement, more often than not they will just get blocked by an infantry unit half their cost and accomplish nothing. At least pure Krox units get their stomp because they're in B2B.


For you, maybe. But I find 300 points extremely expensive for something that is so vulnerable. They'll suffer more to ranged and magical attacks than the combined unit; chances are Kroxigor will die before attacking, and they won't be able to stick around in combat nearly as long. If anything, you have to be even more careful about what solo Kroxigor engage than combined units: there aren't going to be many ideal targets that are strength 3 (so can't do much damage before the Kroxigor attack), but have high Toughness or armour save to make the most of the strength 6 attacks.

The combined unit will deliver the Kroxigor safely into combat and then give it ranks and Steadfast once it gets there. And they also fill out core.

Your point about the frontage is also wrong: 6 skinks wide is the same size as 3 Kroxigor wide. You can have 6 skinks, 3 Kroxigor, and 3 more ranks of 6 skinks and its the same frontage as 6 Kroxigor.

A Skrox unit with 3 Kroxigor isn't that much less than a unit of 6 Kroxigor assuming you go for the minimum of 24 skinks and a command group, I had also assumed you would go for a frontage of 8 on the skinks to protect the Kroxigor from getting hit by a flanking unit, since one of the reasons for taking Skox units is ensuring the Kroxigor cannot be hit and a Skrox unit wins by grinding its opponent over several turns (making it a very likely candidate for a flank charge).

I basically see Skinkrox as a good unit if your opponent is an idiot or does not know how to deal with them, but the reality is they are very easy to counter effectively for a lot less points than the LM player will spend on them.

I personally never have problem filling out my core section since Saurus are one of the better units in the book, certainly better than Skrox units in the same role for approximately the same points value.

Clockwork
03-03-2013, 23:58
You are only steadfast if the enemy doesn't have more ranks than you, if Im honest the only opponent I can really see Skinkrox units working against is slow-moving monsters or cavalry units that screw up their movement, more often than not they will just get blocked by an infantry unit half their cost and accomplish nothing. At least pure Krox units get their stomp because they're in B2B.

With cheap skinks and the right targets, you will be steadfast most of the time. 6 Kroxigor will hardly ever be Steadfast and will need to rely on their damage output to win combats. Yes, they have the strength to do it, but they need to find something that a) isn't going to kill them before they can attack, and b) will put their high strength to good use. Smashing them in to 20 High Eleven Spearmen would no doubt win the combat, but its a very poor return on your investment. They'd also likely retain Steadfast so wouldn't necessarily break after the first round.

Anything that you are going to want them to fight (heavy infantry like Chaos Warriors, monsters, monstrous infantry/cavalry) usually has an equally as high damage output. Then you have to factor the solo Kroxigor getting to combat unscathed: in my experience, they tend to have a giant crosshair hovering over them.

You and I both know that there are ways of influencing movement through deployment and redirectors. 3 strength 4 stomps. Game changing.



I basically see Skinkrox as a good unit if your opponent is an idiot or does not know how to deal with them, but the reality is they are very easy to counter effectively for a lot less points than the LM player will spend on them.

But solo Kroxigor are amazing points value, always get the right match ups, and can't be countered just as if not more effectively? Hm.



I personally never have problem filling out my core section since Saurus are one of the better units in the book, certainly better than Skrox units in the same role for approximately the same points value.

I never have problems either because Lizardmen have excellent core options all round (being one of the good features of the book); and being able to get strength 6 attacks in a Steadfast immune to fear, immune to stomp, M6 unit is part of that. At only strength 4, Saurus Warriors can't do some things that Skrox can, and vice-versa, so its wrong to say that they are competing for the same role when they fulfill entirely different niches.

Spiney Norman
04-03-2013, 07:38
With cheap skinks and the right targets, you will be steadfast most of the time. 6 Kroxigor will hardly ever be Steadfast and will need to rely on their damage output to win combats. Yes, they have the strength to do it, but they need to find something that a) isn't going to kill them before they can attack, and b) will put their high strength to good use. Smashing them in to 20 High Eleven Spearmen would no doubt win the combat, but its a very poor return on your investment. They'd also likely retain Steadfast so wouldn't necessarily break after the first round.


No offence, but you can smash almost anything into a unit of 20 elf Spearmen and beat them into the dirt. I've never seen a He Spearmen unit of less than 30, and 40+ is the norm. 20 elf infantry is not a competitive unit set up, so I don't really see the relevance of the comparison. If you play opponents who field units like this, no-wonder you think Skinkrox are good.

In addition solo Kroxigor don't usually need to be steadfast, their resilience combined with their damage output means they should win combat against a wide range of opponents. Skroxigor need to have steadfast because they will lose combat against most things.



Anything that you are going to want them to fight (heavy infantry like Chaos Warriors, monsters, monstrous infantry/cavalry) usually has an equally as high damage output. Then you have to factor the solo Kroxigor getting to combat unscathed: in my experience, they tend to have a giant crosshair hovering over them.

You and I both know that there are ways of influencing movement through deployment and redirectors. 3 strength 4 stomps. Game changing.



But solo Kroxigor are amazing points value, always get the right match ups, and can't be countered just as if not more effectively? Hm.

I think you are underestimating Kroxigor's need for their stomps, when your WS is as bad as Kroxigor any attacks that hit automatically are absolutely golden.

And one of the best things I find about the Lizardmen army is at absolutely everything has a cross-hair hovering over it. Your opponent cannot shoot everything so building an army which is built out of things they will want to shoot can only be a good thing. Fielding units they can safely ignore like Skinkrox detracts from this in my view. Basically if my opponent is shooting my Kroxigor they're not shooting my Saurus or my temple guard or my Stegadon, and this can only be a good thing. In my gaming experience its usually the temple guard unit that opponents go for, leaving the Kroxigor unscathed.

I also didn't say that solo Krox were an "amazing deal", they just work much better than a unit which includes skinks to hand out combat res like candy.

Clockwork
04-03-2013, 08:04
No offence, but you can smash almost anything into a unit of 20 elf Spearmen and beat them into the dirt. I've never seen a He Spearmen unit of less than 30, and 40+ is the norm. 20 elf infantry is not a competitive unit set up, so I don't really see the relevance of the comparison. If you play opponents who field units like this, no-wonder you think Skinkrox are good.

No, you have missed my point entirely. You said that you need to have more ranks to be Steadfast; I countered that Skroxigor will out rank and be Steadfast most of the time and will therefore generate a lot of CR. Solo Kroxigor don't have any static CR and therefore need to rely on their damage output to win a combat. You need to find them a target that you can kill easily, but which won't kill them first. Something weak like spearmen would fit into this category, but as you said anything could kill something like that, so why waste solo Kroxigor on it.

I suppose my question arising from this is - what on earth are you finding the Kroxigor can beat in combat without getting killed first, but are able to get their points back doing it?



I think you are underestimating Kroxigor's need for their stomps, when your WS is as bad as Kroxigor any attacks that hit automatically are absolutely golden.

Three strength 4 hits. Two wounds at most on average against T3/T4. Its not something to write home about. If the Kroxigor were strength 5 I might agree.



I also didn't say that solo Krox were an "amazing deal", they just work much better than a unit which includes skinks to hand out combat res like candy.

You still didn't listen: it doesn't matter if they hand out combat res if they're retaining steadfast. Anything which they might 'hand it out like candy' will be ruining solo Kroxigor, too, so I don't really see your point. At least the combined unit will stick around for a while.

Spiney Norman
04-03-2013, 08:17
No, you have missed my point entirely. You said that you need to have more ranks to be Steadfast; I countered that Skroxigor will out rank and be Steadfast most of the time and will therefore generate a lot of CR. Solo Kroxigor don't have any static CR and therefore need to rely on their damage output to win a combat. You need to find them a target that you can kill easily, but which won't kill them first. Something weak like spearmen would fit into this category, but as you said anything could kill something like that, so why waste solo Kroxigor on it.

I suppose my question arising from this is - what on earth are you finding the Kroxigor can beat in combat without getting killed first, but are able to get their points back doing it?


Almost any unit in the flank (using the Krox as a counter charge unit, which is their main strength), anything that has great weapons, S3 infantry.


Three strength 4 hits. Two wounds at most on average against T3/T4. Its not something to write home about. If the Kroxigor were strength 5 I might agree.

Its not about the stomps on their own, but they do contribute to the success of the unit whereas skinks detract from it. A Skrox unit can muster 9 attacks to hit the enemy with plus a bunch of almost irrelevant Ws2 attacks from the skinks. A Kroxigor unit can muster 18 attacks at S6 and 3 automatic hits at S4,there is no contest in my mind.



You still didn't listen: it doesn't matter if they hand out combat res if they're retaining steadfast. Anything which they might 'hand it out like candy' will be ruining solo Kroxigor, too, so I don't really see your point. At least the combined unit will stick around for a while.

2 rounds maybe, most competitive units in 8th will kill all your skinks in 3 rounds (assuming 24 skinks), because you're either looking at str 4 elites, or horded S3. Virtually everything hits skinks on a 3+ and wounds on a 3+ or better. Using Skrox as a 300pt anvil is one tactic, but ey're not likely to break through an enemy unit before they've lost all their skinks, so why take the skinks in the first place.

Lets look at this a different way, whatsoever you actually use your Skinkrox for? Kroxigor solos are one of the best flanking counter charge units LM have access to, they hit hard, cost less than Saurus cav and are more reliable, and can break ranks (unlike stegs). I can't really see Skinkrox in any role that Saurus don't already do better and cheaper except for the added 2" movement, which isn't really needed in that role.

Clockwork
04-03-2013, 11:17
Almost any unit in the flank (using the Krox as a counter charge unit, which is their main strength), anything that has great weapons, S3 infantry.


So you are putting 300pts of monstrous infantry in to strength 3 infantry. What a waste. There must be about 20 of them for you to break steadfast and actually win the combat. Combined units also work well against great weapons because the Skinks absorb the damage rather than losing kroxigor models.

They can also flank too. Perhaps not as effectively, but almost anything does in the flank. Solo Kroxigor can't go front in either. The combined unit can; its multipurpose.




2 rounds maybe, most competitive units in 8th will kill all your skinks in 3 rounds (assuming 24 skinks), because you're either looking at str 4 elites, or horded S3. Virtually everything hits skinks on a 3+ and wounds on a 3+ or better. Using Skrox as a 300pt anvil is one tactic, but ey're not likely to break through an enemy unit before they've lost all their skinks, so why take the skinks in the first place

But those "competitive" units can't kill solo kroxigor? Theyll fall over to strength 4 in volume and each lost model reduces your killing power, whereas lost Skinks just loses CR (which the skink ranks and kroxigor attacks gain back).




Lets look at this a different way, whatsoever you actually use your Skinkrox for? Kroxigor solos are one of the best flanking counter charge units LM have access to, they hit hard, cost less than Saurus cav and are more reliable, and can break ranks (unlike stegs). I can't really see Skinkrox in any role that Saurus don't already do better and cheaper except for the added 2" movement, which isn't really needed in that role.

Saurus can't break through high toughness or armour. So, cavalry, monsters, monstrous infantry, chariots, even certain kinds of ranked infantry (lighter units if course but also some types of heavy infantry depending). Anything with high toughness or armour and preferablyvthough nor necessarily doesn't have a lot of ranks. oIn other words, seemingly far more targets than your solo krox.

Try matching a one on one and see who wins. To be fair start them off on in base contact.

JWhex
04-03-2013, 11:42
Well here is what I did to make skrox work for me. I modeled a skink on the base of my kroxigors. They are the old fifth edition models but its fun to have a little skink just about underfoot of a huge kroxigar.

Without repeating the arguments above, in my experience the skinks give away too much combat resolution. I like the looks of a skrox unit but I prefer that my enemy is wasting his shots at skirmishing skinks which are harder to hit. If you can make skrox units work then more power to you, but my style of the using the lizardmen army doesnt seem to work well with skink/krox units.

MR. GRUMPY
04-03-2013, 12:12
Kroxigors without skinks is free points. Spiney if you think about it you will realize that adding skinks you can still use your skrox unit as a flanker and countercharger the only diffrence will be that they acctualy get into combat safe and they have an easier job of breaking steadfast because kroxs really arnt the killing machines you make them out to be so most things will stick vs them. And who the hell cares that they "bleed cr" do you even know what steadfast rule does? They are more likely to break without the skinks.

Xerkics
04-03-2013, 17:44
Also lm have some of the best combat characters, the scar vet and old bloods are massively undercosted and unappreciated since people mostly pig out on double slaan or skink priest scroll bearers. The saurus hero is the only one in game with both str and t5 i think plus scaly skin that makes even cheaper magic armour viable. So they are slow but you ll struggle to put one down and they are a bargain even with just basic equip

Spiney Norman
04-03-2013, 22:37
Kroxigors without skinks is free points. Spiney if you think about it you will realize that adding skinks you can still use your skrox unit as a flanker and countercharger the only diffrence will be that they acctualy get into combat safe and they have an easier job of breaking steadfast because kroxs really arnt the killing machines you make them out to be so most things will stick vs them. And who the hell cares that they "bleed cr" do you even know what steadfast rule does? They are more likely to break without the skinks.

Yes I do know what the steadfast rule does, but I want my hammers to be winning combat, not losing it every round. Kroxigor units don't need to be steadfast because they win combat.

I guess we just put this down to different metas, I've tried Skrox units and found them to be as bad in game as they are on paper, Kroxigor on their own on the other hand are one of the more cost-effective monstrous infantry out there. Conversely due to whatever factors you've found Kroxigor to be ineffective and Skrox to be LMs best east ever unit. I'm not saying you're lying, or wrong, Im saying you don't play the armies I play.

I would also say that Skrox make a terrible flanking unit, as often flank protectors operate outside of the Generals Ld bubble, and even with cold blooded and steadfast skink Ld is not great when you are losing combat every round.

Xerkics, I agree totally, I love Saurus characters, I run at least one scar vet in all my games, and Ive even been known to use an old blood on carnosaur from time to time, he's pretty bad, but the model really rocks.

ewar
05-03-2013, 00:28
Also lm have some of the best combat characters, the scar vet and old bloods are massively undercosted and unappreciated since people mostly pig out on double slaan or skink priest scroll bearers. The saurus hero is the only one in game with both str and t5 i think plus scaly skin that makes even cheaper magic armour viable. So they are slow but you ll struggle to put one down and they are a bargain even with just basic equip

Massively undercosted? Nonsense. Being actually worthwhile taking, whilst not also being gamebreaking is the best thing about scar vets - they should be the benchmark other army books are set by, so we might see more general fighting heroes instead of the sea of mages most competitive lists bring. Compare a single scar vet to a Skullcrusher (even more so before the new book update) and 150-160pts is spot on.

As for Krox or Skrox... I've found neither is as good as just investing in more saurus warriors. I've tried every combination I can think of and they do ok, but for 300+pts they're just not as good as another 30 HW&S saurus. Yes they're quick, but that often means they're out of Slann Ld range and testing on Ld7 even with cold blooded is very dicey, mine have often fled when people built up CR from the skinks. The 6+ Krox unit suffers in different ways - T4 4+ save isn't enough to keep them alive long enough to swing and WS3 is just too crippling. 18 S6 attacks sounds good, but when that equates to only ~7 wounds before parry etc it's just not enough to be worthwhile.

I've heard of some people buffing Skrox with light magic - but to what end? Bironas just lets them swing at initiative (may as well not bother) and anyone with a brain will dispel speed of light. And if you're buffing T2 troops with a slann then I think your gameplan might not be the best...

I have found my overcosted saurus cav much better - they have the only swiftstride in the army apart from terradons (very useful) and a unit of 6 + gleaming pennant + burning blade scar vet makes excellent monster hunters. S5 on the charge is fine against most gribblies, especially as the Vet swings first to get rid of regen. Gleaming pennant to avoid that unlucky stupidity test as they're often on the flanks and out of BSB bubble.

Cooper97
05-03-2013, 00:52
Hear me know, rise a punani, rise a punani (Ali G). I admit defeat. They are exceptionally good.

Moss
05-03-2013, 01:32
They generally have specific targets that they want to engage: in descending order the target priority is something like cavalry > chariots > monsters > monstrous infantry > monstrous cavalry > T4/4+ amour save infantry > all other infantry. Of course, if you can combine them with a redirecting skirmisher unit to get into the flank of something all the better, but that's true for almost anything.

I agree with this 100%. Skrox units, just like everything in the LM army, fill a specific role. You want to use them against your opponent's small, highly armored units. The beauty of the LM army is that with skinks/chameleons/terradons, you can pick your battles most of the time, even against faster opponents (though really, most cavalry doesn't move THAT much faster than skrox units). So why are skrox units better than just plain kroxigor? Because a lot of those cavalry units kill kroxigor just as well as kroxigor kill them (maybe not Empire knights/cold one knights who didn't get the charge). You'll kill a few knights each turn, while your opponent kills a ton of skinks. If you consistently have poor luck with skrox units, you're probably picking the wrong targets.

The problem is that mounted Scar-Vets kill knights just as well, are more surivable without the need of a skink "bunker" unit, and are more flexible.

My point is that skrox units are plenty useful, but don't perform their role as well as the rest of the LM army. Between Scar-Vets, skink poison, and salamanders (all of which you probably have in your army anyway), you should be able to kill everything on Clockwork's list just fine without kroxigor/skrox units.

Clockwork
05-03-2013, 08:10
Yes I do know what the steadfast rule does, but I want my hammers to be winning combat, not losing it every round. Kroxigor units don't need to be steadfast because they win combat.


I'm genuinely interested what they have been winning against, could you give some specific examples?

Spiney Norman
05-03-2013, 09:31
I'm genuinely interested what they have been winning against, could you give some specific examples?

I play most often against High elves, Empire, Tomb Kings, vampire counts, wood elves and goblin heavy greenskins. Most of the armies I face use large hordes of infantry, so a Skrox unit would not be steadfast and very high saves are not prevalent aside from some High elf dragon princes that my Stegadon and/or Kroxigor enjoy dealing with.

I do face some shooting, but most of my opponents tend to shoot for the temple guard and/or stegs before the Kroxigor, which means I often get them into combat, the Slann is effective at shutting down most magic phases with becalming.

VampireOrcElf
05-03-2013, 11:17
this has worked for me before, most people will think you are a dick for doing it and it depends heavily on the winds of magic, run double slann, one with power stone other with power scroll, one as shadow one as life, reduce there main units Strength then dwellers them

Clockwork
05-03-2013, 13:42
I play most often against High elves, Empire, Tomb Kings, vampire counts, wood elves and goblin heavy greenskins. Most of the armies I face use large hordes of infantry, so a Skrox unit would not be steadfast and very high saves are not prevalent aside from some High elf dragon princes that my Stegadon and/or Kroxigor enjoy dealing with.

I do face some shooting, but most of my opponents tend to shoot for the temple guard and/or stegs before the Kroxigor, which means I often get them into combat, the Slann is effective at shutting down most magic phases with becalming.

Now why couldn't you have said this in the first place rather than claiming they are awful in practice as well on paper? It'd clear that they are bad for you in your local meta but this is not true for all. I tend to face lots of armour and monsters/monstrous units for which the combined unit is outright superior. But to claim that they are terribad all the time because they don't fare well agains your particular match ups, and ignoring all other scenarios, is wrong.

Frankly I think that there are better tools in the book for dealing with ranked light infantry and may not bring either unit in those contexts, but there you go.

Jornovich
05-03-2013, 16:30
Sorry, this so OT but.....no one is going to reference that song the topic vaguely echoes? "what is it good for!?" "Absolutely nothing!"

sorry but its the first thing i thought of too! i thought this post was gonna be all about saying how rubbish they are! which they arent i happen to think there a very competitive army. just choose your style! :)

they can turn their hand to most build types. always fancied doing an army of them because i love the saurus savage artwork from the books so much(even the old cover of the game with saurus oldblood and bret lord fighting from way back!). but after making and painting a load of saurus(their second incarnation) for a store i didnt feel inspired to do an army of them... although now my basic conversions of plastic figures have gotten better i may have .... *mind flies off on a wild tangeant about doing a lizardman force saurus heavy*

Jind_Singh
05-03-2013, 18:32
My prefered build at the moment...

2 larger blocks of Sarus (25-35 strong)
1 block of 25 TGuard with Slaan - who is lore master beasts (I don't bother with becalming or extra PD as those are broken)
2 blocks of skink skirmishers
Saurus Coldones (I think like 6-7 with command)
1 beast - I prefer Razordon just for the model appeal
1-2 units of camelion Skinks


Saurus Lord
Saurus BSB
Saurus

There MAY be a forth Saurus hero - not sure

And then I run forwards and kill stuff! When it comes to combat I'll max out on Savage Beast of Horos and watch all those Saurus become MONSTERS! Sig spell makes my unit T/S 5 - HUGE - and it's basically just good times all around with lore of Beasts on the field - strength 10 bolt thrower - yes please! Boost toughness on all characters - yes please! In a pinch transform into a monster - yes please!

Characters are kept pretty bare bones - just some upgrades to armor saves and some great weapons. Slann gets fencers blades so he has WS10, extra attack - so when he becomes a Savage Frog even he will dish out the pain!

ewar
05-03-2013, 19:52
Only thing with running Beasts Jind is that the slann can't cast Transformation, see the FAQ.

Jind_Singh
05-03-2013, 20:01
Well that's good as he's never transformed himself yet - so technically I've not cheated! I've always needed him as a caster to risk transforming!

Even without that option the lore works very well with a combat orientated army - get the savage beasts spell off once and it's good for two rounds of combat - that's a great return on your investment right there

ewar
06-03-2013, 00:25
Well that's good as he's never transformed himself yet - so technically I've not cheated! I've always needed him as a caster to risk transforming!

Even without that option the lore works very well with a combat orientated army - get the savage beasts spell off once and it's good for two rounds of combat - that's a great return on your investment right there

You know what, I think beasts must be the only lore I haven't tried on my slann since 8th dropped. Not sure why, its just never appealed, though I can see how great wildform would be. I think I was always put off by not being able to go for Transformation! Maybe if I dropped Focus of Mystery and just take plaque of tepok it could work well. Something to consider next time I break them out...

Cooper97
06-03-2013, 00:37
Thanks for the army list. I will have a look and maybe personalize it a bit.

Xerkics
06-03-2013, 01:00
Do you think Saurus will go up a few points now that we seen most of other infantry go up in points due to steadfast? Atm they are like poor mans chaos warriors with better leadership i wonder how much more they would cost.

Clockwork
06-03-2013, 08:14
Well Chaos Warriors actually went down a point (base), so I hope not. IIRC they dropped a point between the 6th and 7th edition books.

ewar
06-03-2013, 13:00
I think saurus will go up to 12 or 13 points - I could accept 13 points if the spear option was a free swap and not another point. More challenging is how to price sallies - personally I think 100 is fair, but I think it could be more in the new book. I don't see how you nerf their ability without it becoming useless. Perhaps dropping the large armour modifier.

Vulcan7200
06-03-2013, 13:10
I can't imagine them going up to 13 points. I could accept it as well, but I think if they go up, they'll simply go back up one point to their 6th edition cost. I think their points cost is mostly acceptable where it's at though due to their low Initiative and only WS3. Salamanders I can't imagine losing their armor modifier, since if I remember right, that has been a part of their kit in their last two editions. They're hard to fix though. I imagine they might lose Move and Fire, which I think might be too severe of a nerf. A points cost increase is certainly justified, but they'd still be just as powerful as before. They could give them their own special rule to make their template work like in 7th edition with partials.

ewar
06-03-2013, 13:18
I think 13 points with init bump to 2 would be fine, I know they're supposed to be slow but initiative 1 is just too terrible.

3eland
06-03-2013, 14:31
I think 13 points with init bump to 2 would be fine, I know they're supposed to be slow but initiative 1 is just too terrible.

Lore of Light: The Speed of Light, now those slow WS3 models are WS10 Init10, or raise the casting price and give it to all units in 12". Then combine that with Birona's Timewarp and not only are you re-rolling to hit but have an extra attack too (with double movement till next magic phase). With a free power dice to your rolls it'd be easy to buff your units for maximum damage. A unit of Saurus Warriors go from dangerous to deadly.

If you want to be really hated, take two slann's, the other with Lore of Life, cast Throne of Vines on yourself, then Flesh to Stone on those Saurus Warriors; +4 Toughness, nothing is killing them. Then Regrowth in case some do fall ha ha :D (Throne of Vines increases it to d6 +1 wounds regenerated) I haven't had any army counter that, mind you, I haven't made any friends from it either ;)

Charistoph
06-03-2013, 14:35
I think 13 points with init bump to 2 would be fine, I know they're supposed to be slow but initiative 1 is just too terrible.

I think 13 points would be too much at I2 without something else gained. Right now, we're only faster than zombies, Great Weapon Wielders, and Stomps, on WS 3 models. It's not like we're Warriors of Chaos here.

As for the lores providing buffs, that should not be reflected in the cost of the troops, but in the cost of the wizard casting them.

Spiney Norman
06-03-2013, 14:43
I think 13 points would be too much at I2 without something else gained. Right now, we're only faster than zombies, Great Weapon Wielders, and Stomps, on WS 3 models. It's not like we're Warriors of Chaos here.

As for the lores providing buffs, that should not be reflected in the cost of the troops, but in the cost of the wizard casting them.

In fairness striking order isnt really that important, Int 2 will still be too slow to make much of a difference to hit order, but there are just too many spells/ability that can auto-gimp low Int units like Pit, PSX, sep. stalkers etc that saurus could do with being not quite so vulnerable to.

I also think that adding 2 points for +1 Int is a pretty bad deal, maybe 12?

Vulcan7200
06-03-2013, 14:43
Lore of Light: The Speed of Light, now those slow WS3 models are WS10 Init10, or raise the casting price and give it to all units in 12". Then combine that with Birona's Timewarp and not only are you re-rolling to hit but have an extra attack too (with double movement till next magic phase). With a free power dice to your rolls it'd be easy to buff your units for maximum damage. A unit of Saurus Warriors go from dangerous to deadly.

If you want to be really hated, take two slann's, the other with Lore of Life, cast Throne of Vines on yourself, then Flesh to Stone on those Saurus Warriors; +4 Toughness, nothing is killing them. Then Regrowth in case some do fall ha ha :D (Throne of Vines increases it to d6 +1 wounds regenerated) I haven't had any army counter that, mind you, I haven't made any friends from it either ;)

We can't price units based off of magic lores an army MIGHT have. What if you run an Old Blood on a Carnosaur? It's a choice in the book, should people be punished with overpriced Saurus Warriors because they prefer not using a Slann? 13 Points, like I said, I COULD accept, but I still think that would be too high even at Ini 2. But Ini doesn't matter AS much when you have a big block, atleast not for awhile. It's their WS3 that is their limiting factor. They're hitting pretty much everyone on 4's, and are being hit on 3's by anyone even semi-elite. That's a huge factor to take into account when trying to price them. Of course, I'm in the camp that Saurus Warriors should be WS4, and wouldn't mind a 13 point Saurus Warrior if they got bumped up to that. But if they stay WS3 (And they likely will), I think 12 should be the absolute limit in what they should cost.

3eland
06-03-2013, 14:54
We can't price units based off of magic lores an army MIGHT have. What if you run an Old Blood on a Carnosaur? It's a choice in the book, should people be punished with overpriced Saurus Warriors because they prefer not using a Slann? 13 Points, like I said, I COULD accept, but I still think that would be too high even at Ini 2. But Ini doesn't matter AS much when you have a big block, atleast not for awhile. It's their WS3 that is their limiting factor. They're hitting pretty much everyone on 4's, and are being hit on 3's by anyone even semi-elite. That's a huge factor to take into account when trying to price them. Of course, I'm in the camp that Saurus Warriors should be WS4, and wouldn't mind a 13 point Saurus Warrior if they got bumped up to that. But if they stay WS3 (And they likely will), I think 12 should be the absolute limit in what they should cost.

I totally agree with you, I wouldn't want them to be priced higher if they are still as slow or as low of a WS, I was just pointing out that although the army has its weak points (atm, we will see what GW does) it is easily balanced with the best magic phase in the game, which in turn boosts all the other phases. Lore wise, it makes sense what GW did to them. When we get our new book come fall I am actually very intrigued at what they will do to the warriors.

EDIT: I do agree that not bringing a Slann however does impact the army as a whole since Lizardmen seem to do very well with magic, although they don't always require it to be successful. Magic has always been a part of the Lizards, even the Skink Priests wield it, although not as powerful as the Slann. I think GW wrote the book towards using magic which is WHY we see all the faults they might have because our magic is supposed to balance them. Having WS4, I3, T4, S4 BEFORE magic would just be too overkill so GW did what they thought they should; make the cold-blooded lizards I1 and gave them a crappy WS3. Is it wrong? Depends on your point of view and what you take in your list.

Vulcan7200
06-03-2013, 16:22
I totally agree with you, I wouldn't want them to be priced higher if they are still as slow or as low of a WS, I was just pointing out that although the army has its weak points (atm, we will see what GW does) it is easily balanced with the best magic phase in the game, which in turn boosts all the other phases. Lore wise, it makes sense what GW did to them. When we get our new book come fall I am actually very intrigued at what they will do to the warriors.

EDIT: I do agree that not bringing a Slann however does impact the army as a whole since Lizardmen seem to do very well with magic, although they don't always require it to be successful. Magic has always been a part of the Lizards, even the Skink Priests wield it, although not as powerful as the Slann. I think GW wrote the book towards using magic which is WHY we see all the faults they might have because our magic is supposed to balance them. Having WS4, I3, T4, S4 BEFORE magic would just be too overkill so GW did what they thought they should; make the cold-blooded lizards I1 and gave them a crappy WS3. Is it wrong? Depends on your point of view and what you take in your list.

I don't think they had buffs and debuffs in mind when they made the Lizardmen book, simply because the 7th edition BRB Magic Lores were quite different. They couldn't really make up for the low Initiative and Weapon Skill with the magic phase back then. Every army has access to wizards though (Dwarves excluded, obviously), and most of them have access to many of the great lores that we do as well. So it's not as if we can buff ourselves while no one else can. Although as you point out, the Slann gives us one of the best magic phases in the entire game, if we ignore special characters, which gives us a pretty big edge.

I honestly don't think Saurus Warriors will change much though. I can't wait for Fall to see the new army book, but I think Saurus Warriors are just very well internally and externally balanced. I would LIKE to see WS4, like I said, with a small point increase. But I think Saurus Warriors are at a point where they just won't be touched because there's really no need to change them up.

Clockwork
06-03-2013, 17:04
I think they are pretty well costed right now for their points. Tough, strong, multiple attacks, good leadership - terrible initiative, poor weapon skill. Any more points and you are starting to question their usefulness; any less and it moves into OP territory. 300ish for 24 with full command seems about right. I wouldn't be surprised with them bumping up 1 point but that's no big deal. They definitely shouldn't come down to 10, though.

Temple Guard, on the other hand, could do with a drop or two (or an Eternal Guard fighting style rule so they can use halberds and shields in hand to hand).

popisdead
06-03-2013, 19:11
Ii am really not sure what they are good at.

Winning comes to mind. They are a top army indeed. And a good general will do very well with them.


I was reading the army book and they have some alright units but nothing that is really powerful.

Sounds like you need to re-read the Lizardmen book, particularly the Slaan entry,.. also Salamanders,.. Skinks,.. Saurus,.. etc.


if you kill the slaan mage priest

I wish I could "just kill" enemy slaans. That would be truly be magical.

Xerkics
06-03-2013, 19:21
I dont think they ll go up to 13 myself as chaos wars are 14 points, but i can see them having to pay more for upgrades.

Spiney Norman
06-03-2013, 20:04
I dont think they ll go up to 13 myself as chaos wars are 14 points, but i can see them having to pay more for upgrades.

What upgrades would you have them pay more for? I really hope we don't have a return to the dark days of 2pt spears like in 6th. Saurus were almost anathema then and almost every Lizardmen army was skink skirmish based. Although it would make 5pts for a ranked skink look slightly more acceptable. Even Orc Bigguns get spears at 1 pt, so I really don't think they'll go up to 2. If the pattern of command groups holds Saurus will still be paying the same amount for the group, it will just change for the individual upgrades.

I really hope they drop the cost of Saurus cavalry a little, they still look terrible value next to every other cavalry unit in the game, a 5pt drop would be about right, and reduce their command group to standard 8th ed levels. That would just about make them a competitive unit for the first time in 3 editions.

I do think Slann need to change, a lot. Becalming and rumination need to go forever or gain a massive downside because they are just too game-controlling right now, esp you have one slann with both abilities

Cooper97
06-03-2013, 23:10
I ave re-read the army book as suggested and written a decent army list. It comes to about 2000 points and has a slaan with a block of 30 TG. Love it.

Moss
06-03-2013, 23:36
I haven't even seen the list and I'm going to suggest dropping it down to 20 models (ranks of 6). Use the points you save on more skinks.

Whaagnomore
07-03-2013, 10:48
I often field my slann in a horde of 30 TG, works like a charm when combined with light or life, crushes just about everything. (Note though that I mostly play 3000-3500) So Moss suggestion is kind of spot on for 2000.

Vulcan7200
07-03-2013, 13:08
Winning comes to mind. They are a top army indeed. And a good general will do very well with them.



Sounds like you need to re-read the Lizardmen book, particularly the Slaan entry,.. also Salamanders,.. Skinks,.. Saurus,.. etc.



I wish I could "just kill" enemy slaans. That would be truly be magical.


Although I certainly agree with about the Slann and the Salamanders, I wouldn't consider Skinks or Saurus to be overly powerful. Are they good? Most certainly. But I don't think those units are the ones putting the Lizardmen army into top tier category. That's mostly the Slann having a nearly broken magic phase and Salamanders getting a huge buff due to the edition changes.

Terrenord
07-03-2013, 13:42
I wish I could "just kill" enemy slaans. That would be truly be magical.

Cannonballs kill Slanns. Trust me, my Slann is target one in a game, so war machines are chameleon magnets for my army.