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The Anarchist
02-03-2013, 00:51
I recently read the Dornian Heresy series so far over at B&C and it made me consider how much each Primarchs homeworlds and early experiences shaped each of them. The Primarchs like each of us is 'the sum of all that we have done and had done unto us' hence would be different as a result of had they each been placed. however unlike the Primarchs we weren't each made with preset desgin features, pre-cognative powers etc or touched by the dark powers of the warp before birth. So it got me wondering how might different Primarchs have turned out had they been shifted around to each others HomeWorlds.

For example what might Corax Have been like had he been born on Chegoris rather than the Khan? would he have been the invisible plains wraith of vengeance and leadership for the tribes when confronted by the City Lords? Mabe Lorgar if he had been first discovered, placed on Cthonia? would he have been the greatest Iterator of the Imperial Truth, never having turned on it become Warmaster maybe? What about Konrad Kurze if discovered on Macragge, still cursed with his dark visions, would we have a highly organised dark Ultramar Empire ruled through totalitarian feared despot?

as you can see the ideas go on, and on. I just want as many ideas and thoughts as possible as intending to work my great number of free hours into a few alternative fluff-verses, short peices and darker take on the 40K universe for a Inquisitor game I'm GM-ing.

Inquisitor Aaron
02-03-2013, 01:15
Well let me first say I think its the worlds that influenced the primarchs.

Say for instance if angron was raised on ultramar he wouldn't have turned into the berserker he was in the HH simply because he wouldn't have had the butchers nails.

The world makes the primarch the primarch doesn't make the world.... or at least until they take it over.

Rufiodies
02-03-2013, 01:29
I've been tossing an idea like this around my head for a while now, but it was more how does each space marines homeworld/recruiting world effect the final product? aka how does each gene seed mix with the genetics of the recruiting world?
I think that each Primarch was "sent" to their respective worlds, by some grand designer, or through whatever power whisked them away from their gene labs in the first place. They were meant to go to where they ended up and no other fate was possible. Maybe the lord of change? or that crazy necron timelord with his world engine thing? Who knows?
but I think that each of the Primarch's were cursed/blessed by the warp before they reached their eventual destinations, Most or all of them have a dirty little secret in their gene's, whether it be Russ and the Wulfen, or Sanguinus and the Black Rage, or Mangus and the Flesh Change, and these carried onto their "sons" and regardless of where/how they were brought up, these would still end up being for lack of a better word, major pains in the asses of all involved

However, we also know like you said, that their experiences did weigh heavily on them and change them in many ways, aka had Angron been born on Macragge, would he just have smashed everything to bits? Without his "blessing" of the Nails, maybe he would have turned out as a completely different person? Its really hard to say, Do you think that Kurze would have been normal if he was found first and the emperor just put him on anti depressants?

Inquisitor Aaron
02-03-2013, 18:36
In all honesty I think it's the worlds that the primarchs landed on that really made them who they are. It's kind of like how people from different countries have different ideals on how things should be handled for instance.

The cultures they landed in essentially forged them into the men they became in the horus heresy. It's the ideals and customs of those worlds that forged them and their beliefs. Sure the emperor had great influence on the primarchs but in all honesty we can say that the worlds and their experiences on them made them who they are. For instance like you said kurze being found first by the emperor on a different world we can effectively say the "night haunter" wouldn't have come about since well he didn't go psycho in the pursuit of cleansing his world of crime. Sure he would have had the foresight on peoples deaths since that was his power but he would have for sure turned out differently.

TheDungen
02-03-2013, 21:15
If the lion hadn't spend half his life living in the wilderness he wouldn't have been paranoid. The emperor didn't make him that way. The lion may not have been the best suited primarch for that ordeal but he may also not have been the worst suited.

Same goes for most of them.

The Anarchist
02-03-2013, 22:12
okay it seems that most people like me are of the view Nurture far more strongly shaped the Primarchs (and an individual), however I think having read 'Deliverance Lost' some or maybe even a great deal of the Primarchs traits were genetically built in, such as toughness and resistance in Peturabo, or need for direct purpose and belife in something in Lorgar. While I agree some are hard to imagine in any other way as they were too strongly formed by their upbringing like Angron, not all Primarchs can be considered the same case. So was hoping people could imagine some swap around universe where the Primarchs and their varrious pre-dispositions were settled on other worlds and how this might ahve changed the early Great Crusade/Imperium etc

Silversage
02-03-2013, 22:15
The Lion didn't spend half his life living in the wilderness. He spent around 10 years living in the woods as a child, after which a band of the Order's knights (Luther among them) found him. They then brought him back with them. Of course the argument can be made whether Caliban at that time was civilised or can still be counted as "wilderness", but as they had weaker versions of the Astartes plate armour and weapons already and had survived the Old Night relatively well, I'd say they were pretty civilised. After being found the Lion spent some 10-30 years, don't really know the exact number growing up and eventually ridding Caliban of the Great Beasts. Then the Emperor arrived and Lion went to join the crusade, in which he fought for over five decades before the betrayal of Horus.

On the subject of the home worlds influencing the primarchs' own personality, there's no doubt that the world had an immense effect. After all, they were only wee tiny children when they were torn from Terra. Imagine if one of them, like for example Magnus the Red, would've landed on a world populated only by orks. That would've seen so funny to see.

TheDungen
03-03-2013, 08:13
caliban was a chaos tainted deathworld, i think that falls intom the wilderness cathegory.

And the genetically made to be that way just feels like a cop out by gw to me. as not havign to explain why they became the way they did more than necessary.

Rufiodies
03-03-2013, 09:00
i think the act of conquering/ruling one's homeworld had a profound effect on any of the primarchs lucky/unlucky enough to have done so. Some had to over throw entire civilizations, some had to battle to unite small clans, others had to battle the planet itself or some catastrophe that had happened, a lucky few were raised by "good" people who they saw no reason to overthrow, some of those rose to positions of power, and some (Perturabo) did not.

Rose to power in civilized setting
Fulgrim
Rowboat
Dorn

Rose to power, aided by society, fought against planet/catastrophe/corruption,
The Lion
Lorgar - both lorgar and the lion had "advisors" that came with them after being found, Luther and Kal Pheron
The Khan
Mortrarion
Sanguinus
Corax
Vulkan
Magnus
Russ
Ferrus Manus

Did not rise to power, in civilized setting
Perturabo

Rose to Power Alone
Konrad Kurze

Never rose to power, Uncivilized
Angron

Unknown
Horus
Alpharus Omegon

Archaon
04-03-2013, 02:45
I don't believe planet's themselves influenced the Primarchs themselves (doesn't matter if it was a Deathworld.. each Primarch is way beyond any human capabilities) but rather the culture he grew up in.

Angron was forced to fight as a gladiator and received brain implants that naturally heightened his aggression and drove him near mad, Russ would have always been a kind of Berserker but Fenris fit him like a second glove, Nocturne didn't turn Kurze into the brooding Primarch etc.

It's rather that each planet just represented the arch traits of each Primarch perfectly and just hastened their development without many problems.. imagine Russ being found by some aristocratic family on a lush and peaceful world, that just doesn't feel right.

It's basically the writers adapting the planet to fit the character of the Primarch.

Rufiodies
04-03-2013, 14:47
I think your wrong about Nocturne, Had Kurze actually been brought up by SOMEONE, rather than left to take care of himself, maybe if he was raised by the Emperor like Horus was claimed to be. I'm not saying the planet itself, just how the Primarch's got to whatever point they were at. Some like Purterabo, didn't reach the milestone of coming into power or over throwing some corrupt evil govenment, he was just raised and then found by the emperor.
Did Kurze rise to power? or was he just a shadow hero Punisher style?
I think the development of each Primarch was influenced heavily on how they dealt with the environment that they lived in. Theirs a definite confidence issue, you can tell that Perturabo definitely had low self esteem and jealousy towards his brothers
Imagine if Angron was successful in his crusade against his "owners", if he was able to bring some of his slave brothers with him to become space marines? or even the fake ass Kor Pheron/Luther type space marines

Morihaus
04-03-2013, 17:14
In Angel Exterminatus(birthstories of sort of these 3 gentlemen)
Ferrus:
it's said that Ferrus' eyes, green from his very beginning changed into silver grey after his 1st encounter with Asirnoth. He was also cut a few times but that silver wyrm. That was then when his eyes turned silver grey, permanently. Also that was then when he become a man(character, attitude, his whole life) was shaped.
Is this some for of mimicry(warpey homeworld adaption? imprinted into his sorcery-genescience) or necrodermis(?) in his blood?
Perturabo
from the very moment know his name was blue-eyed Perturabo - "I wil endure" when he was climbing against all odds on the steep cliffs of Lochos.
Fulgrim
was violet-eyed albino from the very beginning. And he did some miracles. WOOT

also were proto-Salamanders, the Terran-born ones, before they met their Primarch(and that uber radiation GW bs:)) pitch-black? hehe?:d

Gdolkin
05-03-2013, 00:42
Archaon and Rufiodeis, Nocturne was Vulkan, Curze's was Nostramo.
Interesting topic, will think on it.. Tending to towards the heavily influenced by nurture and environment with some consideration due to 'innate' design, and then also to warp-jiggery during the scattering, but mostly shaped by homeworld.

The Anarchist
05-03-2013, 03:27
Kurze often makes me wonder one of the most concerning nature and nuture when it comes to the Primarchs. yes he was born onto an eternal night world that was corrupt and crime ridden, seems the cliche for msot Hive worlds really. however there were many ways he could have risen to power, he didn't have to be the darkest Batman ever, fear is a great tool for enforcing power yes, but its not the only one, and most successful times its been used in history its followed up by something afterwards. Kurzre never did that, he would still personally hunt down and kill any criminal after he was the sole planetary ruler.
But I'm think what would have happened had Dorn for instance been found on Nostramo? would he have been a dark batman with a small moral code, maybe putting in place a harsh but fair totalitarianism legal system maybe overseen be him alone as head judge? if that had happened what might that have done to him when he was found by the Emperor and reunited with his legion? maybe instead of the Imperial Fists we get the Imperial Judges, the black and white armored; Judge, Jury and Executioner legion rather than the Emperors Praetorians?
To continue the switch maybe Konrad is found instead on Inwit and taken in by their Clan master. pursued by dark visions of inescapable futures Konrad becomes a harbinger of terrible times, but a firm and dour man driven each time to prevent his visions. Seeing terrible troubles to come he meets with his father aboard his ship the Phallanx and pledges to forever fight the darkest fights for the Imperium no matter how dark the cost. So united with his legion the Night Gaurdians they set out on the Great Crusade?

All I've thought here is if the Primarchs had kept the core of their values that might well have been geneticly built into them but been placed in very differnt circumstances how might those views been differently molded and hence their effect on so many other things?

TheDungen
05-03-2013, 07:10
Well of the three primarchs that grew up on their own. Curze the lion and Russ . Two had major psychological scaring. Russ didn't because he was taken care of by the wolves. And I believe he was under 10 when taken care of by humans.

Azulthar
05-03-2013, 07:46
Nurture matters, as does nature. Sanguinius would still have his wings troubling him, no matter what planet he would grow up on. Lorgar and Konrad would still have their nightmares/visions pushing them in a certain direction, etc. We don't enter this world as a clean slate, and neither did the Primarchs :)

Rufiodies
05-03-2013, 08:06
I really think that the only Primarch who truly grew up alone, as in reached adulthood alone, was Kurze, I know Russ/The Lion/The Gorgon/Perturabo all spent at least some of their childhood surviving alone in what could be considered the harshest environments possible, but they at least had the counsel of another living human being/s, Kurze was alone, even among his brother primarchs.

The Lion was a social retard, despite being respected and loved by his legion (at one point), sure he spent some of his childhood in a deathworld, but as I stated above, other primarchs did as well and they didn't all turn out like that, I think regardless of where he ended up, he would have been a paranoid social retard... He's set to become the supreme grand master of the inquisition...


I think its worth noting that The Lion and Lorgar were the only primarchs to really bring people from their past with them into their legion, and into positions of great power at that. and we all know how great that turned out...

Madmongo
05-03-2013, 11:43
How exactly is the lion a social retard? Measured against whom or what?

Kurze? Angron? Perturbo?

The lion is described as cold and aloof, but why would this make him a social retard?

I am curious as to your line of reasoning here.

Rufiodies
05-03-2013, 19:20
Its stated in the Dark Angels HH novels that he just didn't know how to connect with other people on any emotional level, and he really had zero close relationships with his brother primarch's, he seemed to view them all equally with distrust.
He ends up giving Perturabo the siege guns in an effort to have his support as the new warmaster once Horus' rebellion was put down, completely unaware that Perturabo had already thrown his lot in with Horus, and that wasn't on the basis of any real feelings of brotherhood, just political ambition.

Perturbo, despite his issues still managed to create a strong bond with at least one other primarch, Magnus. Angron was even able to make nice with Lorgar, not to mention all his gladiator buddies whom if the text is to be believed, he loved beyond anything, and Kurze... well, its hard to be friends with anyone when the first thing you see is how their gonna die... At least he had the excuse of growing up alone while every person around him was trying to rape/murder/rob everyone else, including him.

The lion, despite his early history growing up alone, was "raised" by those who loved and respected him, He had time to learn how to understand social contact.
He couldn't even see how Luther was becoming jealous of his glory, despite other marines in the chapter noticing it (Namiel and/or Zacharial (sp?))
And I understand he was a super being with no real peers to speak of, but other primarchs managed to figure it out, hell, even some like Vulkan grew to love human's despite their obvious short comings.

He's like sheldon cooper from BBT

TheDungen
05-03-2013, 19:42
eh the first years are the most important when it comes to enviromental exposure and no other primarch except curze was alone for as long as the lion. Russ after all had his wolves, saguisinius was found, arngon was found.

also beign the first primarch the lion seems to share many of the strengths and shortcomings of his father, maybee the emperor hadn't thought about making specific primarchs at that point and thus only created a weaker version of himself.

have you looked at the map no space marine homeworld is closer to the eye of terror than caliban. It may not be a fridig hell like fenris or a deadly jungle like catachan but both those places are natural. Caliban was dangerous for other reasons. The only planet that could be worse of than caliban is medusa and if you look at that it also seems to be a tainted place (giant metal snakes?), but ferrus was a very different person from el'johnsson and he knew of humans he just didn't join them.

And no he's not Sheldon, he's more like Sherlock from the tv-series Sherlock.

angelismortis
05-03-2013, 20:22
Yeah, I can't see Sheldon literally ripping someone's head off for disagreeing with him.

Rufiodies
05-03-2013, 21:16
Yeah, I can't see Sheldon literally ripping someone's head off for disagreeing with him.

You obviously didn't see the episode where he tried to make Leonard's head explode with his mind
"puts fingers to temples and scrunches his face together in extreme concentration"

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-03-2013, 21:58
I really think that the only Primarch who truly grew up alone, as in reached adulthood alone, was Kurze, I know Russ/The Lion/The Gorgon/Perturabo

It's worth noting that the Primarchs all reached adulthood at an incredibly fast rate. The three really feral Primarchs (Kurze, Russ, and the Lion) all spent long enough in the wild that by the time they were found by civilized forces they had reached physical maturation. What is important is how they then socialized into relative normalcy, or if they did at all.


I think its worth noting that The Lion and Lorgar were the only primarchs to really bring people from their past with them into their legion, and into positions of great power at that. and we all know how great that turned out...

Lorgar. But that more reinforces your point.


Yeah, I can't see Sheldon literally ripping someone's head off for disagreeing with him.

If he had the body of a Primarch instead of the weedy nerd avatar he's in now, I bet he would, given his personality.

TheDungen
06-03-2013, 09:40
I dont think so sheldon may be spiteful but not agressive.

The lion is closer to sherlock though he lacks sherlocks gift for manipulation.

Madmongo
06-03-2013, 10:01
I see the point ( I had forgotten about his involvement with Perturbo)…, but I do feel GW are missing out on the more human/tragedy of the Arthurian legend.

Ah well.

Still my favourite primarch!

Dirtyjake
06-03-2013, 15:45
I really think that the only Primarch who truly grew up alone, as in reached adulthood alone, was Kurze, I know Russ/The Lion/The Gorgon/Perturabo all spent at least some of their childhood surviving alone in what could be considered the harshest environments possible, but they at least had the counsel of another living human being/s, Kurze was alone, even among his brother primarchs.

The Lion was a social retard, despite being respected and loved by his legion (at one point), sure he spent some of his childhood in a deathworld, but as I stated above, other primarchs did as well and they didn't all turn out like that, I think regardless of where he ended up, he would have been a paranoid social retard... He's set to become the supreme grand master of the inquisition...


I think its worth noting that The Lion and Lorgar were the only primarchs to really bring people from their past with them into their legion, and into positions of great power at that. and we all know how great that turned out...

I think 'social retard' may be a bit abrasive... but I got the same feeling about the Lion from reading the books.

There was the entire epic of organizing, planning, and leading a grand battle, only to unwittingly hand the cherry over to a traitor with a smile and a handshake.

Also (I don't know how to use the spoiler thing so I'll be vague here) towards the end of one of the books, when he was sitting in a ship or transport and just glaring at the main character (of the book) after not having gotten to..... do the big thing at the end. Hope that makes sense.

He seems constantly unable to read his soldier's true feelings and character in simple dialogue where other Primarchs would... suddenly smile... charmingly and say 'oh Private Snuffy... you didn't really mean what you just said... did you?' ... ' well, er... no sir. how did you know what I was REALLY thinking...'. Other Primarchs could simply watch someone's face, read voice fluctuation, hear a slight skip of a heartbeat... the Lion seems incapable of any of this.

Having said that, I'm still pretty new to the Warhammer / Warhammer 40k universe and from what I'm reading, at least in the novels is that the Lion may be the most complete 'warrior' of all of them. I always thought he seemed pretty bland, but he consistently thrashes everyone around him when it comes to anything of a tactical or strategic nature. He just can't seem to communicate or understand... emotions or something.

Wyrmwood
06-03-2013, 21:08
It depends; some of the Primarchs irrevocably changed the worlds they landed on, while others were irreversibly tainted by the cultures or properties of the world they landed on. The vision and willpower of some Primarchs, like Fulgrim and Roboute Guilliman, forever altered their new homeworlds. Others were caged and corrupted by the cultures they integrated with, or failed to integrate with like Angron. Yet, others were somewhere in between; Konrad Curze attempted to the change the world, by his vision was already tarnished by the darkness of his personality, and degenerated further by his post-humanity and the general evil of Nostramo's rulers. Then you have others, like Lion El'Jonson, who were perhaps changed by other external factors.

Ultimately though, I think it's fair to say that a combination of genetic engineering; intended purpose, or manifest destiny, and 'nurture' were factors that affected each Primarch in a combination of different ways.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-03-2013, 01:54
I dont think so sheldon may be spiteful but not agressive.

All I'm saying is that power corrupts. Your qualities are not immutable by your circumstances. Was not Horus the brightest star, the most trusted of the Primarchs, the Emperor's favored son? Give Sheldon a more powerful form and you bet he might be a little more physically aggressive. He should take roids or something, get swole and krump that grimy **** room mate of his. ;)

Rufiodies
07-03-2013, 07:15
Everyone who keeps going on about how sheldon wouldn't be as aggressive as The Lion or whatever, They are similar in that they both are socially stunted creatures who are "above" their peers in intellect.
I'm not saying their mirror images...
We might as well just bring up everything that's different about them
The lion can crush full beer cans with his eyelids, sheldon... is scared of germs
The Lion grew up on a deathworld in another galaxy playing with daemons from the warp
Sheldon grew up in texas and likes thai food

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-03-2013, 09:00
Both Texas and Thai food can be pretty rough. One's likely to give you heartburn and indigestion. The other one is food from Asia.

angelismortis
07-03-2013, 09:24
You obviously didn't see the episode where he tried to make Leonard's head explode with his mind
"puts fingers to temples and scrunches his face together in extreme concentration"

Ooops. Forgot about that one.

TheDungen
08-03-2013, 10:56
Yeah but the people that can cow Sheldon are not those more physically intimidating than him but his mother. They are similiar in that both are high functioning sociopaths with a superiority complex grounded in inferority or uncertainty issues.

The lion learned to talk at 10. He had never interacted with a living being on any sort of social level before that if it wasn't for his primarch mind he would have been much much worse.

He likely knew the whispers of the dark gods before any human voice... It would be intresting if it was revealed that he knew of chaos all along.

Also it brings to question if the placement of the primarchs was random. Of all the worlds that a primarch landed on the emperors firstborn landed on the one tainted by chaos. Maybe they had intended for him to be the arch heretic.