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View Full Version : Can you combine gene seed from two different chapters/legions?



Rufiodies
03-03-2013, 09:33
So we all know that the Imperium has "most likely" used traitor gene seed in the creation of new chapters of space marines (Grey Knights/Blood Ravens)
Would it be possible to mix the gene seeds of two different chapters?
They send 5 percent of their gene seed to mars for "purity checks" we all know the Adeptus Mechanicum is a bunch of nuts who can't help but tinker with everything (If it aint broke...)
it takes two progenoids to make a marine, could you say? stick one progenoid of Ultramarines with one of the Thousand Sons to help create more stable psykers?
Or mix the Imperial Fists with say Iron Warriors, or Death Guard to make super stoic ultra defenders?

Is their any fluff on this?
I've seen, like in the Battle of the Fang, the Wolf Priest finds a way to fix the Canis Helix in order to remove the wulfen taint in order to successfully make successor chapters (the wolf brothers went all mutatey...)
but mixing the gene seeds of multiple chapters?
Possibly a way to fix the degeneration that many chapters are experiencing by mixing their gene seed with a more stable chapter (ultramarines)

The ultramarines are rumored to have had taken in space marines from 2 other legions before the heresy, maybe this is why their gene seed is so pure, they've already mixed the gene seed of multiple legions, kinda filling in the gaps of genetic information?

Leftenant Gashrog
03-03-2013, 12:30
No No No. A thousand times No. At least that's the general cry when this topic usually comes up.

There is no canon statement to that effect however, whilst the Relictors IA had this to say:
"The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels. If this is the case, then it would appear that the High Lords of Terra's reluctance to sanction the use of Dark Angel's geneseed in the creation of new Chapters has relaxed somewhat."

Salient point:
Use of Dark Angels geneseed in the mix = rare enough to merit pointing out.
Use of mixed geneseed = completely unworthy of drawing attention to.

TheDungen
03-03-2013, 12:30
yes but it has only been done in a single founding, the cursed 21st founding. And it worked so extreemly badly that such projects have been abandoned. Also apart from grey knights no chapter is sanctioned to use traitor geneseed. The blood ravens if they are TS are unaware of it so are the imperium.

the imperium dont experiemnt with geneseed any more its to valauble and the results are to unpredictable, and all real research has been lost.

Lord-Caerolion
03-03-2013, 12:49
I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to mix geneseed, at least theoretically. Get an aspirant, get some organs created from one strain of geneseed, get the rest from another, then implant into the same host. Now you'll have two progenoids featuring genetic data from both strains. However, the Ultramarines still haven't absorbed any missing Legions, no matter how many times you ask :p It's been confirmed by Aaron Dembski-Bowden himself. The Ultramarines did not take in any remnants.

totgeboren
03-03-2013, 12:52
I was about to point out the cursed 21st founding too. I remember Fabius Bile did some experiments on mixing TS (or maybe just geensteed from the traitor legions) and SW geneseed, and claimed he could stabilised warp-corrupted geneseed that way. It was just mentioned in his IA article I think, as I haven't heard anything about it since.

But Biles approach to geneseed is anything but orthodox, and I don't think the Imperium does things like that after the 21st founding disaster. There is more than enough UM geneseed available, and they make great marines, so why tinker with it when they have fully functioning geneseed already?

Lord-Caerolion
03-03-2013, 13:09
Because geneseed like the Blood Angels is seen as superior, if not for the glaring flaw, hence the Lamenters, who were an attempt to "breed it out". Then there's also plain human arrogance. A group of Magos Biologis think they can make some improvements, if they simply mix two different strains together. Fabius, to me, wasn't responsible for all of the 21st Founding. He had a hand in the creation of some of the more extreme mutations, like the Black Dragons, but mostly it was the result of a group of Inquisitors and Biologis who thought they could save the Imperium, if only they make a few small changes...

MajorWesJanson
03-03-2013, 13:15
It's been confirmed by Aaron Dembski-Bowden himself. The Ultramarines did not take in any remnants.
It's not been confirmed either way by ADB. He merely confirmed that it was rumored, not that it was true or false.

All Cing Eye
03-03-2013, 16:06
I was about to point out the cursed 21st founding too. I remember Fabius Bile did some experiments on mixing TS (or maybe just geensteed from the traitor legions) and SW geneseed, and claimed he could stabilised warp-corrupted geneseed that way. It was just mentioned in his IA article I think, as I haven't heard anything about it since.

That was from a WD article called Codicum Imperialis on the Space Wolves, in one of the graphic boxes it mentions that it may be possible to slow the degradation of the Emperor's Children geneseed by introducing the SW Canis Helis as a stabiliser. It mentions that Fabius Bile is seeking SW geneseed in order to try this theory out.

Leftenant Gashrog
03-03-2013, 16:10
yes but it has only been done in a single founding, the cursed 21st founding.

The Relictors have never been suggested to be 21st Founding - other than being dated as M36 in the highly unreliable 3rd Armageddon War IA art, and 21st wasn't the only Founding in that millenia. Also the 21st Founding did involve tampering with geneseed, but its never been stated that all they did was mix good with bad. The autopsy on the corpse on Incunabla in the Cursed Founding IA article suggested far more was going on.

Inquisitor Engel
03-03-2013, 16:11
They send 5 percent of their gene seed to mars for "purity checks" we all know the Adeptus Mechanicum is a bunch of nuts who can't help but tinker with everything (If it aint broke...)

:eyebrows:

The Adeptus Mechanicus (the Mechanicum hasn't existed for 10,000 years) HATES tinkering. Loathes it. Beyond rational levels of thought.

TheDungen
03-03-2013, 16:51
I never said it was the only bad idea they did in the 21st, I'd say they tried to reclaim all the knowledge they had lost and failed miserably.


I was about to point out the cursed 21st founding too. I remember Fabius Bile did some experiments on mixing TS (or maybe just geensteed from the traitor legions) and SW geneseed, and claimed he could stabilised warp-corrupted geneseed that way. It was just mentioned in his IA article I think, as I haven't heard anything about it since.

But Biles approach to geneseed is anything but orthodox, and I don't think the Imperium does things like that after the 21st founding disaster. There is more than enough UM geneseed available, and they make great marines, so why tinker with it when they have fully functioning geneseed already?

I always figured they might be using dark angels genesedd claiming its UM geneseed so that the new chapter dont know they are unforgiven (and thus avoid the whole legion building problem) seeing that the dark angels geneseed is the purest there is.

Madmongo
03-03-2013, 18:01
Honsu anyone?

Inquisitor Engel
03-03-2013, 18:12
Honsu anyone?

Read "Angel Exterminatus." ;) Not everything is as it appears...

Leftenant Gashrog
03-03-2013, 21:18
I can't speak for Angel Exterminatus, but I don't recall there being any suggestion in Storm of Iron that his geneseed was mixed in any way, he and his company were 'half-breeds' because they were Iron Warriors.. but not real Iron Warriors.

Rufiodies
03-03-2013, 22:06
:eyebrows:

The Adeptus Mechanicus (the Mechanicum hasn't existed for 10,000 years) HATES tinkering. Loathes it. Beyond rational levels of thought.

Being a smart ass for the sake of looking smart... ONE LETTER, you know what I ment. And we all know their to be radicals throughout every aspect of the imperium, your gonna tell me that the AM doesn't tinker? what do you think the 21st founding was?

Inquisitor Engel
03-03-2013, 23:18
Being a smart ass for the sake of looking smart... ONE LETTER, you know what I ment. And we all know their to be radicals throughout every aspect of the imperium, your gonna tell me that the AM doesn't tinker? what do you think the 21st founding was?

If you're to enjoy your time on Warseer a bit more, I strongly suggest you get a thicker skin. I meant no offense, I was simply clarifying for future purposes. It's not an uncommon mistake (and rarely is it a typo - the Mechanicum and Mechanicus are two are very different organizations).

And in general, the AM frowns on tinkering. It takes decades, sometimes centuries for them approve changes like the Land Raider Crusader vs the regular Land Raider. Literally a weapons swap. The 21st Founding also occurred during the Age of Apostasy and so any involvement by the Mechanicus was limited, as possibly tainted by the Adeptus Biologis involved being loyal to Vandire.

Tech Priests have been censured and killed for tinkering and Space Marines are not known for being particularly keen on seeing their brethren (or their brethren's gene-seed for that matter) being the results of part of experimentation.

Generalissimus
04-03-2013, 15:35
The 21st Founding also occurred during the Age of Apostasy and so any involvement by the Mechanicus was limited, as possibly tainted by the Adeptus Biologis involved being loyal to Vandire.

Actually, I believe the Lexicanum article on the 21st Founding states that it occurred just before the Age of Apostasy (AoA, for brevity's sake). Now, Vandire had been building up power and allies for a while, but the Lexicanum's recounting of the AoA does tend to paint the Mechanicus (along with the Marine chapters) as being quite distant from Vandire's machinations; indeed, the Mechanicus openly calls for the High Lords to execute Vandire and the Tech-Guard escorts Sebastian Thor to Terra at the end.

Given those historical recounts, it doesn't seem to my mind to be likely that the 21st was created by Vandire-allied Adeptus Mechanicus personnel. However, that doesn't necessarily preclude a fringe group of the Mechanicus getting involved given the comparative chaos of Imperial governmental oversight at the time.

Inquisitor Engel
04-03-2013, 18:01
However, that doesn't necessarily preclude a fringe group of the Mechanicus getting involved given the comparative chaos of Imperial governmental oversight at the time.

That was more my point.

Both occurred in M36, but the exact dates of which are hard to pin down. My main point comes back to the idea that no one in the Mechanicus is going to be tinkering with Space Marine gene-seed and screaming about it left right and center. Ever. It's highly doubtful ANY would do it at all.

Generalissimus
04-03-2013, 18:59
That was more my point.

Both occurred in M36, but the exact dates of which are hard to pin down. My main point comes back to the idea that no one in the Mechanicus is going to be tinkering with Space Marine gene-seed and screaming about it left right and center. Ever. It's highly doubtful ANY would do it at all.

Ah, I do apologise; I misread the intent of your post as 'The 21st Founding was a Vandire-led conspiracy.' I'm with you now.

Inquisitor Engel
04-03-2013, 23:18
Ah, I do apologise; I misread the intent of your post as 'The 21st Founding was a Vandire-led conspiracy.' I'm with you now.

No worries. :)

Maybe the Age of Apostasy is BL's next period of renown when they're done milking the Heresy! Then we'll get some dates!

Harwammer
05-03-2013, 13:52
The source of the Relictors' geneseed is largely based on gene stock taken from the laboratorium on Mars and is thought to be composed of that grown from the Ultramarine and Dark Angels

I haven't read the original source to this, but could it not be interpreted as some relictor marines have DA geneseed, others have Um rather than each individual marine has a mix of the two?

Inquisitor Engel
05-03-2013, 17:13
So we all know that the Imperium has "most likely" used traitor gene seed in the creation of new chapters of space marines (Grey Knights/Blood Ravens)

I'd actually like to address this.

The Grey Knights have no confirmed Gene Seed sources. We're still not entirely sure the Knights Errant of 40k are their direct predecessors. We think they are. But we don't know for sure.

Second, the Blood Ravens were not founded or created by the Imperium. They appear to be remnants of the Thousand Sons who remained loyal and hid for a while while until it was safe to present themselves as a Chapter. At some point, their leaders made the conscious decision to excise their history.

Rufiodies
05-03-2013, 19:07
Is the blood ravens info confirmed anywhere in the fluff? I would very much like that to be true, as this would explain alot of those chapters out there that "claim" to be one geneseed, or feign ignorance of their gene sire, Blood Ravens, Silver Skulls, that one space sharks chapter, and so on.
I know its not really spelled out yet, but what traitor chapter do you think had the most loyalists remain with the Imperium?
Is their any info as to what happened to the traitor gene seed after the heresy? Either its destroyed by the inquisition or put under super lock and key by the AM, I really don't see them as the type to destroy information, regardless of how dangerous it actually is.

Also, how would they have solved the whole flesh change issue if not for some form of gene seed "tinkering"

TheDungen
05-03-2013, 19:59
the heresy and the time after was a tumultuous time very few legions were gathered in once place when it broke out.

Its likely that some companies of the traitor legions stayed loyal and that lodges in some loyalist legions joined the rebellion.
Some companies will have retained the loyalities of their parent legion but been lost for so long or their legion had changed so much when they returned that they either couldn't or didn't want to join up again.

Some expedition fleets may have been supported by forces from more than one legion these forces may at the end of the heresy felt they had more in common with each other than with their parent legion.
It would be cool if the fire claws (relictors) were revealed to be such a faction, Ultramarines and Dark angels stuck together in some far of corned of the galaxy returning only later to find their legions broken up into chapters and forming one together.

So yeah the blood ravens may be one splinter group of TS but they may also be such a group from Blood angels (powerful psykers red armour) or ravenguard (similar name and both excel at covert operations). And even if they are TS there is no guarantee that they may be the only TS splinterfaction out there.

All Cing Eye
05-03-2013, 23:38
the heresy and the time after was a tumultuous time very few legions were gathered in once place when it broke out.

Its likely that some companies of the traitor legions stayed loyal and that lodges in some loyalist legions joined the rebellion.
Some companies will have retained the loyalities of their parent legion but been lost for so long or their legion had changed so much when they returned that they either couldn't or didn't want to join up again.

I've always thought that the IW would be ripe to have multiple forces that remained loyal during the heresy. They were one of the thinnest and most wide spread of the legions.

Rufiodies
05-03-2013, 23:58
Their is that one IW, Dantioch?
he had this upside down fortress on schradenhold, or something, refused to join Horus when the IW came knocking to use his fortress as a base, survived a 300 day siege, and managed to kill a ******** of rebel IW and an emperor titan before jetting to terra to help the loyalists.

We don't know what happened to him as of now, probably got 'Fisted' the moment his ship left the warp (being an iron warriors ship after all), but if he did survive, I wouldn't be surprised if he's in a cage somewhere rotting away atm. Maybe they'll let him out in time to help shore up the defenses at the Palace.

Any one else get the idea that the Minotaurs are Iron Warriors gene seed? The Chapter Mater Asterion Moloc is said to delight in the destruction of his foes, and to have a "maze like" heavy assault carrier as his defacto home... He's also super paranoid and bloody handed... If anyones read Angel Exterminatus, they will understand the maze connection.
They also have expertise in siege craft, and are exceptionally brutal, they were sent to stop a fight between two chapters, and one ran, and the other, the inceptors, was forced into a humiliating surrender, after which only 100 survived, and the Minotaurs took many of their relics and their battle barge.

Lupe
06-03-2013, 00:38
I can't speak for Angel Exterminatus, but I don't recall there being any suggestion in Storm of Iron that his geneseed was mixed in any way, he and his company were 'half-breeds' because they were Iron Warriors.. but not real Iron Warriors.

Storm of Iron flat out states that Honsou carries the taint of Dorn's geneseed...

Inquisitor Engel
06-03-2013, 01:49
Is the blood ravens info confirmed anywhere in the fluff? I would very much like that to be true, as this would explain alot of those chapters out there that "claim" to be one geneseed, or feign ignorance of their gene sire, Blood Ravens, Silver Skulls, that one space sharks chapter, and so on.

The suggestion has been around for some time, starting with their chapter having a higher than normal number of Librarians in their Index Astartes. Their thirst for knowledge was also noted as very Thousand-Son-like.

In the "Dawn of War - Tempest" novel, Ahriman straight up refers to a group of Blood Ravens as "Lost Brothers." The Corvidae (raven in Latin) cult in "A Thousand Sons" has similar iconography and a large number of Thousand Sons escape after a vision from a Remembrancer psyker - 'The Ravens. I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied!'

Then you have "Rebirth" in "Age of Darkness" where some of those surviving Thousand Sons return to Prospero. It's pretty obvious in there.


The Chapter Mater Asterion Moloc is said to delight in the destruction of his foes, and to have a "maze like" heavy assault carrier as his defacto home... He's also super paranoid and bloody handed... If anyones read Angel Exterminatus, they will understand the maze connection.


I'd say it's far more to do with GW's love of puns and harping on the Minotaur connection. ;)

Rufiodies
06-03-2013, 02:41
I'd say it's far more to do with GW's love of puns and harping on the Minotaur connection. ;)

:eyebrows: ...
Way to go and RUIN it for me with your damn logic and facts!
and here I was thinking I was onto something... :cries:

The minotaur/maze connection went sailing right over (under?) my head, loathe as I am to admit it.
Damn you Occam's Razor, damn you to hel!

TheDungen
06-03-2013, 09:35
also arent the minotaurs a quite new chapter? created because the high lords wanted space marines of their own.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-03-2013, 01:43
also arent the minotaurs a quite new chapter? created because the high lords wanted space marines of their own.

Cursed Founding in M36 as far as age goes. The Badab War goes to some lengths to establish how Cursed Founding Chapters generally get wrecked.

Rufiodies
07-03-2013, 07:24
What are the chances that they are another of those traitor legion splinters that remained loyal during the heresy and just decided to purge their history. The fact that they didn't "get wrecked" is a little conspicuous, although on the other hand its not like they are without the controversy that surrounds many a 21st founding chapter
But maybe they just got the records to say their were founded in M36, in a government where misinformation is the norm and speculation is heresy, forging a few records would be child's play even if they weren't the High Lords' personal secret police.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-03-2013, 09:05
Other than having to wait for a suitable time to appear with their alibi and keep decent enougg relations with Imperial forces (to keep up on the news) without giving themselves away? If they waited for the Cursed Founding... that'sthousands of years of waiting with no way of knowing an opportunity will come, with curious Inquisitors about, surviving the Scouring, trying to keep recruitment and supply lines open while not giving themselves away...

Harwammer
07-03-2013, 09:25
I guess they could operate on the eastern fringes, using rogue traders etc to help with supplies rather than dealing with more official bodies.

theLastWulfen
09-03-2013, 18:44
Before the 21st Cursed Founding, there was also the 12th Dark Founding, that had similar results, covered up by the Imperium.
The original 21st founding Minotaurs had the same stats and traits of the World Eaters Legion, implying the use of loyal WE gene seed.

In the "Horus Heresy, Book 1, Betrayal" the massacre at Istvaan III, the traitor Primarchs were purging their legions of the original terran marines before their arrival of their Primarchs because they feared they would remain loyal to the Emperor.
Upon being attacked, Loken declared "We are no longer Sons of Horus, but Luna Wolves!"
That was at the start of the heresy, how many of the other original terran marines of the traitor legions felt the same?

TheDungen
09-03-2013, 20:37
It is also possible those weren't all marines that they were uncertain of but only those close enough to interfere. Even with warp drives travel from one side of the imperium to the other could take years. And istvaan was during a warp storm some companies may have gotten lost arriving too late to take part in the events.

I would say the heresy was large enough and tumultous (i don't want to use the word chaotic) enough for anyone being able to fit any fluff they want in there.

Rufiodies
10-03-2013, 05:52
How do you think a traitor legion ship that was say lost in the warp from a time before the heresy, would react if they came out of the warp at a time long after?
Would they choose to follow their legion into a conflict they knew nothing about? or would they continue to try and pursue the Emperor's Imperial Truth?

I wonder if their are any instances of renegade marines, not chaotic per se, but more just those disillusioned with the Imperium, or forced out by the Inquistion, but are their any groups of marines that have sworn their swords to the Tau? They slowly run out of supplies and are forced to turn to the Tau for help, or run to Tau protected space in order to escape the Hammer and Anvil of the Imperium.
seeing a unit (or entire chapter) of Space Marines kitted out with Tau Tech would be awesome if you ask me.

And I believe it was the 13th dark founding, unless the Imperium went so far as to cover up the event in our universe as well as theirs (I wouldn't put it past some wiley Inquisitor)

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-03-2013, 06:38
It was the 13th Founding that is called the Dark Founding. Records are unclear and unreliable about this Founding, so you could shoehorn in anything you wanted, really.

bloomer
10-03-2013, 08:38
I think is possible to mix gene seed! In fact, there's Honsou of the Iron Warrior who's said to be an half breed by his pairs because he got Imperial fist gene seed in his blood. He was an attempt of the Imperium to stop the traitor legions to be all lost forever to the Chaos! You can find his story in one the BL's compendium on IW...

Rufiodies
10-03-2013, 08:48
Honsou is called "Half Breed" as a slur, as he is a Iron Warrior with IF gene seed, which isn't mixed gene seed, while he may have been created with Iron Warriors organs and such, his gene seed is fully Imperial Fist's.

Mixing Gene Seed would be for example, Marines have two Progenoids implanted in their bodies, maybe we take one grown from Imperial Fists gene seed, and the other grown from Iron Warriors gene seed, then implant them in the same marine.
Otherwise it would mean taking elements from two legion's gene seed and mixing them, then growing a set of progenoid's from that and implanting them into an aspirant.
I think in 99.99999999% of the cases, this would result in horrible horrendous mutation and death, I know Fabius Bile is mentioned in the fluff to have started experiments mixing the gene seeds of all the different legions in an attempt to create the "ultimate warrior" and to decode the Emperor's holy genetics (kinda sounds like the Grey Knights if you ask me...) , as well as using the Space Wolves gene seed in an attempt to stabilize the Emperor's Children's chaos induced mutations which have rendered them and their gene seed, sterile for all intents and purposes