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View Full Version : Were the remnants of the two lost legions (II and XIX) folded into the Ultramarines?



Rufiodies
03-03-2013, 09:42
I've been wondering about the "rumor" that after the tragety that caused the loss of the two unknown primarchs, both legions were folded up into the Ultramarines, which is why their numbers swelled to the point they were at prior to the heresy.

If this is true, wouldn't the gene seed of each of those groups have been mixed with the "Ultra pure" ultramarine's gene seed?

Maybe they took special effort to make sure that this mix didn't happen, after collecting gene seed from fallen space marines, maybe it was kept separate, or they sent it all back to mars.

Another possible theory was that the Gene seed was removed and replaced? or that the loss happened rather early on in the Great Crusade and the majority of the remaining legions had not had their gene seed implanted yet or were still aspirants

And the most possible theory is that this was just a rumor and the reason the Ultramarines had such large numbers was that Rowboat pretty much had a mini Imperium at his beck and call, huge numbers of recruits to choose from, and maybe was just more efficient at creating new space marines? The Emperor could have given him the same secret he gave Corax following the loss of the two legions maybe as a way to offset those losses?

Generalissimus
03-03-2013, 10:45
Interesting theory, the remnants of the missing Legions could have been rolled into the Ultramarines but been recorded individually as Marines from another origin, creating a kind of 'foreign legion' of Ultramarines. The lack of knowledge regarding the missing Primarchs means that they could have been felled by something other than faults in their gene seed, meaning that you would have a load of perfectly good Marines sitting about with no senior command structure.

The only problem I could see with the idea of replacing the gene seed is that the process of creating the Marine would already have been accomplished. So far as I understand, the gene seed is basically a set of individual cells that are grown into a full set of organs over a period of fifty-odd years using a number of test slaves. Those fully grown organs are then implanted into the aspirant at various points along their training. The gene seed created by the Marine is therefore a natural production of having all these internal organs - either that, or 'collecting gene seed from fallen Marines' is basically code for retrieving their internal organs so that they can be sent home and have cells extracted from them to create more. In either case, replacing the gene seed of a fully-fledged Marine would effectively amount, so far as I understand it, to a total replacement of all of their internal organs by a completely different set grown from another gene seed - in this case, the Ultramarines. I don't think there's ever been any fluff that describes that happening.

Lord-Caerolion
03-03-2013, 11:44
It's been confirmed by the author himself that it's nothing more than rumour. The Ultramarines were so large because they recruited from all of Ultramar, not because they absorbed the missing Legions.

Andy089
03-03-2013, 12:07
I think it's worth mentioning that while their records were scrapped from history, this doesn't necessarily mean that they went against the emperor or are gone altogether!
It might very well be that the emperor wanted a legion or two to remain in secrecy to take care of "special tasks" (similar to the grey knights)...

Rufiodies
03-03-2013, 22:03
It's been confirmed by the author himself that it's nothing more than rumour. The Ultramarines were so large because they recruited from all of Ultramar, not because they absorbed the missing Legions.

I've read that all ADB confirmed was that their was a rumor that the 2 legions were rolled into the 13th legion. He did not confirm whether the rumor was true or false.

Archaon
04-03-2013, 03:11
As no one knows what these Legions and/or their Primarchs did to warrant the total erasure of all records (something only Traitor Legions would receive) i doubt the soldiers of these Legions would have been permitted to serve further because they've been made in the image (and possibly with the genetic material) of their Primarch.

If it's just the Primarch they may have been allowed to fulfill one last campaign so they may die in combat rather than just be executed but i don't see them being integrated into anything because the crime must be so severe the Emperor surely would have wanted to prevent any rumor spreading by surviving members of these Legions.

Grndhog89
04-03-2013, 04:05
Also legion XIX is the Raven Guard. Pretty sure they're still around in the 41st millenium....

m1acca1551
04-03-2013, 07:20
The rumour that the 2 missing legions were rolled into the glorious 13th legion probably started from those who wished to explain Roboutes massive numbers and how he can get them so fast.

Now if the actual geneseed of the legions was corrupt/faulty then they would have been destroyed and not used again, more so i highly doubt that if the geneseed was so unstable that such a balanced force like the 13th would accept a random draw card in to there ranks.

On the other hand, if they did role the stable remnants of the 2 legions into the the 13th then this may explain why some of the succesor chapters are varied from the actual Ultramarine stock. Pure speculation i know but that's all we have!

I'd say that those survivors of the 2 legions were simply made a SOTG (special operations task group) wearing no colours and sent on black bag missions or the like till they were dead, vanished as a fighting force or if the geneseed was unstable simply allowed to degenerate and die.

Lord-Caerolion
04-03-2013, 08:26
I've read that all ADB confirmed was that their was a rumor that the 2 legions were rolled into the 13th legion. He did not confirm whether the rumor was true or false.

To quote Aaron Dembski-Bowden from Bolter and Chainsword:


If I'd known people would really believe it was a hint, rather than several soldiers joking, I'd never have written it. I genuinely had no idea people would take it as fact. Most of the other HH references to the Lost Legions (especially in Prospero Burns) are spoken with an air of truth. In The First Heretic, in that scene, it's blatantly just some soldiers even admitting they know it's just a rumour.

totgeboren
04-03-2013, 09:38
I still like it. My own speculation, based on The First Heretic and the SW executioner thingy, is that at least one of the missing Primarchs turned on the Emperor, considering the conversation between Lorgar and Magnus. I personally think the other Primarch died before being found, or before being given access to his legion. That legion might have been fighting as part of the Ultras before the Primarch was found, and became integrated into the UM upon discovering he was dead.

But that's just my own speculation. We will never know what happened, except that the SW killed at least one of the missing legions. Remember that they could have been pretty small too, like the TS or the SW.

Bold_or_Stupid
04-03-2013, 13:50
My theory remains that one Legion was wiped out by the Wolves due to attempts by their Primarch to improve the Legions geneseed in proscribed manners (Chaos infused science). The other Chapter was lost when it's Primarch commited seppuku (sp?) after failing in some manner, this legion was disbanded and folded into the Ultramarines and the grim outlook of the survivors gives rise to the death cult feel of some Ultramarine successors.

Rufiodies
04-03-2013, 15:15
Also legion XIX is the Raven Guard. Pretty sure they're still around in the 41st millenium....

I should check my facts before posting them on the thread name... I blame warhammer wiki and lexicanum and all that.

and that quote from ADB, does that really read as him saying its untrue? all he's saying is that its a rumor, not that its blatantly false, Sure he says he wishes he didn't write it but maybe thats because we weren't supposed to know?
Or GW really does want to keep them "lost" in order to push creativity with the players. but besides that, there are PLENTLY of unknown chapters for people to play around with, we don't need two whole unknown legions to make cool fan fluff! Hell if we're gonna go that far, why not just say their were 21 legions? or 40? Maybe the Emperor made some test primarchs/legions that managed to get out into the world? Who knows? With warp time travel and all that, ****, we can even start bringing back the dead primarchs as well, Ferrus Manus didn't die, he made a clone of himself, now's he's kicking it with the C'tan eating babies.
Although I love that alot of the fluff is up in the air (everything you have been told is a lie!) , so we can argue about it on these forums all day (which is why I love philosophy)
Part of me wishes it was set in stone... sigh