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ViperGold
03-03-2013, 10:39
As we all know being a Space Marine is an inherently dangerous occupation. The likelihood of death at some point in your career is pretty high and if you survive long enough to get to the top and run your own chapter your doing pretty well.

So what happens when the chapter masters do eventually die? Who do you think would replace them and why? Who would be excluded?

When Dante develops a fetish for drinking blood who's going to take up the running of the Blood Angels? When Azriel finally has a mishap with his plasma gun who's the best at keeping secrets? When Calgar eventually suffocates himself with his own smugness who's next in line to be papa smurf?

Discuss!

RunepriestRidcully
03-03-2013, 11:33
They are setting up the Ultramarines for a nice Schisim or even a civil war on that front, not sure about the others though..

MajorWesJanson
03-03-2013, 12:23
Captain of the 1st company seems to be traditionally the stepping stone to Chapter Master, but it depends on the chapter. Space Wolves elect from the Great Wolves, and like said, the Ultramarines may have a bit of a problem in that Sicarus, 2nd Company master, is gunning for the spot over Agemman.

Most Chapters, members of the Chaplains, Librarians, and Techmarines are not in the running for the head seat, though there are some exceptions there.

ryng_sting
03-03-2013, 17:06
Generally, it seems to go to the Captain of the 1st company, provided he hasn't just taken that job.

Inquisitor Engel
03-03-2013, 18:16
Of those than we know, Sicarius, Lysander, and Ragnar are the next most-poised to take the position were anything at all to change in the background. There's no named Dark Angels or Blood Angels captains notorious in the background enough to be worth mentioning (Tycho being dead, after all).

I'm genuinely shocked that Vladimir Pugh is still the Chapter Master of the Imperial Fists, to be honest.

theJ
03-03-2013, 19:30
As a rule - the captain of the first company. When he takes the role, another captain will take over the first company. As with any rule, exceptions do happen.
For Dark Angels, the next Grandmaster will, unless he dies or fails the tests, be Master Belial of the Deathwing.

Leftenant Gashrog
03-03-2013, 21:23
As noted Sicarius is possibly next in line for the role of BigSmurf even tho he isn't 1st Company Captain.

One of the Apocalypse book (maybe the original?) had a Red Scorpion Captain and most of his company turn renegade after he was overlooked for promotion to Chapter Master, the Red Scorpions are also a noted Codex adherent chapter so these points both suggest there's more to it that 'most senior chapter'

Archaon
04-03-2013, 02:32
I've always had the impression that the Captains of the Companies decide that amongst themselves, maybe with input from the Head Chaplain and Librarian. Often enough the Captain of the 1st Company, i.e. the Veteran Company is the most exceptional leader and maybe the longest serving so the ratio may be skewed towards him bit i can't remember a hard rule with Codex Chapters.

Gdolkin
05-03-2013, 00:17
With the Blood Angels, the High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest (so Astorath and Corbulo at present) assume joint temporary command if Chapter Master Dante dies, and assess the suitability of the current First Captain (Karlaen), due to an unfortunate incident an unspecified number of Masters previously when a First Captain Kalael assumed the role of Chapter Master and almost immediately went Black Rage, causing all sorts of bother. I'd have thought the Chief Librarian Mephiston should be involved in assessing the spiritual/mental stability of the candidate as well, but there's no mention of Librarian involvement in the Codex, just that the High Chaplain and High Sanguinary Priest have responsibility for the changeover. Presumably the same thing happens with their successors. Also, it was said of Tycho before he went Ragey that he was a prime candidate to succeed Dante, even though he led the 3rd Company, so amongst the sons of Sanguinius it's much more to do with how far from going nuts your peers reckon you are than about being 1st, 2nd or 3rd Captain etc. Then there's the Sanguinary Guard, led by Brother Sepharan, and the Codex says nothing about him being excluded from consideration, so if Dante died Astorath and Corbulo (but not Mephiston, for some reason) would have to look at Sepharan of the Guard, Karlaen of the 1st, Aphael of the 2nd, Machiavi of the 3rd, maybe even all the Captains, and decide who seems least likely to fall to the Flaw..

Hellebore
05-03-2013, 00:33
The reason that the 1st co captain is generally chosen is that they are almost always the most senior. So most senior and 1st co captain tend to correlate but not causate. Captains get promoted to 1st co captain, so 1st co captain seems to be a step up from battle co captain.

Hellebore

Grndhog89
05-03-2013, 04:11
Hm,

I feel like the Dark Angels would have a very different method of selecting a new Supreme Grand Master given that he fulfills many different roles. The SGM of the DA is also a de facto head of all the other Unforgiven chapters, knows about Luther, heads the Inner Circle, and has normal leadership duties on top of all that. I think the DA process is very selective. Its a shame that it is not detailed because I think it'd be a pretty interesting process.

Inquisitor Aaron
05-03-2013, 06:43
A schism in the ultra-marines would truly be a sight to behold. To the best of my knowledge though it's usually the 1st captain that takes the step up to the position of chapter master. :)

TheDungen
05-03-2013, 07:04
I guess the unforgiven must have some say in who is supreme grand master of them.

Archaon
05-03-2013, 17:18
Why? Space Marine Chapters are not democracies and the Unforgiven owe their existence to the Dark Angels so its feasible that they'll defer to the Dark Angels on this matter out of respect because they know the DA won't select the new Chapter Master by playing a Texas Hold 'Em tournament.

Chem-Dog
05-03-2013, 17:41
Salamanders' Chapter Master IS the First Captain.
There are a few Chapters who leave it to a CM to select his own successor, some decide by vote of the Captains and other Senior posts possibly with the Chapter Master's preference being counted as a vote.
I could see individuals aspiring to the position required to undergo an ordeal, trial or even ritual combat against others as being a ceremonial - if not legally binding - way of selecting a new master.

TheDungen
05-03-2013, 19:51
because no matter how much they respect the dark angels a space marine chapter master does not take order from a younger chapter master. now if the dark angels want to control the unforgiven they have to give soemthign in return or its not much of a bargain for the unforgiven. Yeah most would probably still go with it but we've never heard of a non unforgiven dark angels successor and if the dark angels were hoarding all the power there would be those who didn't play along.

and the dark angels simply cant afford that since anyone who doesn't play ball is potential security leak for their dirty little secrets.

NashTrickster
08-03-2013, 14:04
Like many things with Space Marines, the process of selecting the next Chapter Master may vary wildly from one Chapter to another, even between those which share the same geneseed...

The Codex Chapters probably follow the method outlined in the Codex (or, if Guilliman didn't bother penning in the "correct method", copied the one used by the Ultras...) but others can use whatever method they see fit.

Some Chapters may have the candidates fight each other until there's a single winner, while others may go for a more "democratic" method and organise a chapter-wide vote... Others may yet have a more "dynastic" system, where a Chapter Master selects his successor. Others may use a "Vatican style" Conclave... And you could even find more obscurantist methods, like letting an Emperor's Tarot reading by the Master Librarian decide of the matter.

Moonman
09-03-2013, 07:57
I imagine the lamenters would draw straws.

Might run into trouble when they all draw the short one, but I guess they're used to that.

NemoSD
09-03-2013, 08:15
Hm,

I feel like the Dark Angels would have a very different method of selecting a new Supreme Grand Master given that he fulfills many different roles. The SGM of the DA is also a de facto head of all the other Unforgiven chapters, knows about Luther, heads the Inner Circle, and has normal leadership duties on top of all that. I think the DA process is very selective. Its a shame that it is not detailed because I think it'd be a pretty interesting process.


As a rule - the captain of the first company. When he takes the role, another captain will take over the first company. As with any rule, exceptions do happen.
For Dark Angels, the next Grandmaster will, unless he dies or fails the tests, be Master Belial of the Deathwing.

It actually is detailed in the new codex. In the entry for Azrael and else where in the book. SGM is nominated by the current/passing SGM, and is then tested by the Keepers. In the event the nominated fails, the Inner Circle nominates the next guy. (The Inner Circle consists of all successors by the way, important to note.)

TheDungen
09-03-2013, 11:34
It actually is detailed in the new codex. In the entry for Azrael and else where in the book. SGM is nominated by the current/passing SGM, and is then tested by the Keepers. In the event the nominated fails, the Inner Circle nominates the next guy. (The Inner Circle consists of all successors by the way, important to note.)

oh... sounds resonable... can a non dark angel be nominated? and in that case wil he remian his own chapter or will he become a dark angel?

NemoSD
09-03-2013, 19:08
oh... sounds resonable... can a non dark angel be nominated? and in that case wil he remian his own chapter or will he become a dark angel?

That is the debate. I theorize that the Company Masters may move around, and that among inner circle members, there may be some Chapter suffling, but it would be rare and quietly done to avoid suspicion. Remember, the Inner Circle is a secret... even Unforgiven who are not members of it are unaware of it, with some exceptions in the Ravenwing/Second Company

SgtFreakshow
10-03-2013, 12:11
I don't think there are any specific rules for most chapters as to who becomes a new chapter master, either the former chapter master decrees who will be his successor before his death or the chapter's Master of Sanctity chooses whom of the captains are the most suitable for the job.

I have a hard time imagining this loose system of selection being a problem for space marines anyhow, if the Master of Sanctity says that the 6th company captain is the best suited for chapter master the 6th captain would probably bow his head and say "it's my duty to serve" and all the other captains, even those with seniority would bow their heads and say "may the Emperor protect" and that would be that.

TheDungen
10-03-2013, 12:53
That is the debate. I theorize that the Company Masters may move around, and that among inner circle members, there may be some Chapter suffling, but it would be rare and quietly done to avoid suspicion. Remember, the Inner Circle is a secret... even Unforgiven who are not members of it are unaware of it, with some exceptions in the Ravenwing/Second Company

haha just made me realise how ungrateful we as players are, they jsut have us brand new info on the selection process and we're already braying for more =P

NemoSD
10-03-2013, 16:30
haha just made me realise how ungrateful we as players are, they jsut have us brand new info on the selection process and we're already braying for more =P

I am not braying for more, I like how vague it is, it means I can theorize and guess, and then I can pull my opponent into a debate about these topics during a tourney and distract him :-p

TheDungen
10-03-2013, 16:57
then maybe its just me =P

Grndhog89
10-03-2013, 19:55
This does confirm to me that DA are indeed still a legion. Since all the Unforgiven hang out in the same Inner Circle. I can imagine that DA along with SW are the only legions really left......all the others (including traitors) are either following the codex or shattered into warbands.

Leftenant Gashrog
10-03-2013, 20:47
Funnily enough the new codex actually confirmed to me that they are not a united legion. The idea of them being a single monolithic entity stemmed from the 3rd edition line about Azrael having authority of the successors Grand Masters, this led many to believe that successor Chapter Masters were mere Grand Masters with the entire Unforgiven having only a single Supreme Grand Master. The new codex reaffirms the fluff from the illustrious Codex: Angels of Death that all successor chapters still have a Supreme Grand Master. The wording in the Codex is that Azrael is charge of the hunt for fallen, no indication is given that he has authority over any other aspect of Successor operations.

NemoSD
10-03-2013, 21:01
Funnily enough the new codex actually confirmed to me that they are not a united legion. The idea of them being a single monolithic entity stemmed from the 3rd edition line about Azrael having authority of the successors Grand Masters, this led many to believe that successor Chapter Masters were mere Grand Masters with the entire Unforgiven having only a single Supreme Grand Master. The new codex reaffirms the fluff from the illustrious Codex: Angels of Death that all successor chapters still have a Supreme Grand Master. The wording in the Codex is that Azrael is charge of the hunt for fallen, no indication is given that he has authority over any other aspect of Successor operations.

Also no indication that the Supreme Grand Master does not have power over the other chapters either. In fact several times, the Codex goes out of its way to tell us that they have to make an effort to avoid looking like they are legion building, because of the whole... they act like one thing...