PDA

View Full Version : horrors, still sorceres...



Khellendr0s
04-03-2013, 15:32
This is my cry about demons.

Why the hell couldnt horrors become a ranged unit, kind of archers, or with another kind of shooting weapon, unpredictible but stronger as bigger is the unit. But a shooting unit, no sorcerers. They worked as sorcerers during the 7th edition, because they used to shoot independiently with their own energy dices (and also added a dispel dice as sorcerers).

But now, in the 8th editions magic system i think they became completely useless. They only can steal dices to the main sorcerer, and that is not good unles you have generated 10 or + energy dices.

Does anyone think they are usefull? better than the nurgle core unit in any situation??

The bearded one
04-03-2013, 16:07
You've got flamers for tzeentchey flamey shootey.

underscore
04-03-2013, 16:10
A unit of 20 being able to one dice the sig spell must be worth something, especially when it can raise themselves with it. Can't they apply their rank bonus to a dispel attempts as well?

decker_cky
04-03-2013, 16:18
Can't they apply their rank bonus to a dispel attempts as well?

No. But I agree with your general point - they're now able to be an effective unit with much less points invested in them than last edition.

@Khellendr0s: Magic has advantages such as ignoring cover and being able to move and 'shoot' without penalty. I think horrors now are probably about as good as they were when the 7th edition book was released when you factor in blue horrors.

warplock
04-03-2013, 16:26
Blue Horrors, the most skilled melee fighters of any army. Yep, Chaos Warrior hit you on 3+, Swordmasters hit you on 3+ rerollable, but Blue Horrors hit you automatically! They also cannot be wounded in close combat, making them the most Resilient troop of all. Granted, this is because they immediately die...

HalfBlood
04-03-2013, 16:28
They are s2....

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

warplock
04-03-2013, 17:52
They are s2....

Sent from my LG-P999 using Tapatalk 2

I didn't say anything about their strength :angel:

DaemonReign
04-03-2013, 18:13
Why the hell couldnt horrors become a ranged unit, kind of archers, or with another kind of shooting weapon, (?)

Imo because it's the typical kind of generic (boring) thinking that is starting to become 'the curse' of this entire edition.
Ward's new Horrors are not as horrible as his 7th Ed variants were in 8th - but it's shame he removed their magic levels and above all a puritanical crime that Tzeentch Daemons didn't get a unique Lore.
The 'problem' with the previous variant was broken amounts of Power Dice (in 7th) and then a fixed and comparatively 'meh' selection of spells (in 8th).
So basically a less flimsy designer would simply have updated the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch to match the standards of the BRB and after that Horrors would have been a perfectly balanced choice.
Then again, this is all hypothetical seeing as the new book turned so much on its head it's really pathetic to talk about the 'what-ifs' on tiny details like this.


You've got flamers for tzeentchey flamey shootey.

No he doesn't. They packed their over-edition-bags and moved to the 41st millennium. Didn't you get the memo last August? ;)

Khellendr0s
04-03-2013, 20:25
Imo because it's the typical kind of generic (boring) thinking that is starting to become 'the curse' of this entire edition.
Ward's new Horrors are not as horrible as his 7th Ed variants were in 8th - but it's shame he removed their magic levels and above all a puritanical crime that Tzeentch Daemons didn't get a unique Lore.
The 'problem' with the previous variant was broken amounts of Power Dice (in 7th) and then a fixed and comparatively 'meh' selection of spells (in 8th).
So basically a less flimsy designer would simply have updated the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch to match the standards of the BRB and after that Horrors would have been a perfectly balanced choice.
Then again, this is all hypothetical seeing as the new book turned so much on its head it's really pathetic to talk about the 'what-ifs' on tiny details like this.



No he doesn't. They packed their over-edition-bags and moved to the 41st millennium. Didn't you get the memo last August? ;)


So everything gw does is perfect and noone can complain because it is "boring thinking" and "pathetic".


I think "pathetic" is not even think about how something could be done better. "Pathetic" is to eat a ******** meal just because someone put it in front of you on the table. "Pathetic" is to spend your time reading things you think are "pathetic".

I bet you said the same about chaos marauders complains, go to a championship and count how many horrors are being used.

decker_cky
04-03-2013, 22:46
Well...I don't mind horrors. When you factor in the lore attribute, channeling offensively and defensively, the ease at which they can give you a solid casting bonus, and the fact that they aren't completely useless in combat anymore, they'll be a really useful unit.

Where I think Mat Ward missed out was in the opportunity to restructure the core. Seekers, flamers, nurglings and flesh hounds could have easily been put in core with a true core type restriction (can't outnumber their patron's main unit), then you add variety to monogod core without causing any real problems. Doing that, it'd probably make sense to make flesh hounds and flamers cheaper 1 wound models, but it would open the army up hugely. Then you have core fast cav, shooting, scout/swarm and medium cav to switch around the army.

Morrslieb
04-03-2013, 23:27
It would've been nice if horrors had somekind of shooting attacks (it'd make great difference in melee-based core), not that i'm really complaining the way horrors are now.

Tarliyn
05-03-2013, 00:20
So everything gw does is perfect and noone can complain because it is "boring thinking" and "pathetic".


I think "pathetic" is not even think about how something could be done better. "Pathetic" is to eat a ******** meal just because someone put it in front of you on the table. "Pathetic" is to spend your time reading things you think are "pathetic".

I bet you said the same about chaos marauders complains, go to a championship and count how many horrors are being used.

Kinda a over reaction to that guys post, lol. While pathetic might have been poor word use from him your response didnt really apply to what he said either. But whatev I guess.

Now OT, I like horrors as a mage unit since it makes them different from what is currently out there, and differences between armies make for more interesting games.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HalfBlood
05-03-2013, 00:34
So everything gw does is perfect and noone can complain because it is "boring thinking" and "pathetic".


I think "pathetic" is not even think about how something could be done better. "Pathetic" is to eat a ******** meal just because someone put it in front of you on the table. "Pathetic" is to spend your time reading things you think are "pathetic".

I bet you said the same about chaos marauders complains, go to a championship and count how many horrors are being used.


The point was Ward could have made horrors much more viable, but instead he took a poor way out. He did this with majority of the book. Horrors may have a place in a few Daemon lists in exchange for the GD being a Greater Daemon, but we will have to wait and see.

You guys dont really think horrors are that much better in close combat now that when 1 dies it does a S2 hit on an enemy.....

Leogun_91
05-03-2013, 05:57
Blue Horrors, the most skilled melee fighters of any army. Yep, Chaos Warrior hit you on 3+, Swordmasters hit you on 3+ rerollable, but Blue Horrors hit you automatically! They also cannot be wounded in close combat, making them the most Resilient troop of all. Granted, this is because they immediately die...They hit on 4+, you roll a number of d6 equal to the numbers of counters and then for each 4+ roll a s2 hit. They hit on 4+.

Thorin
05-03-2013, 06:34
They hit on 4+, you roll a number of d6 equal to the numbers of counters and then for each 4+ roll a s2 hit. They hit on 4+.

Still, they are cool :D And I can very well imagine them being reeeaaally nasty and annoying..."WTF didnīt I slay you! And you!" "Nah that was the pink guy. Oh look, do you also split and stand up again when dead? Uh, seems like not, sorry!" :D ;) :D
Greetz Thorin

HereComesTomorrow
05-03-2013, 12:28
The point was Ward could have made horrors much more viable, but instead he took a poor way out. He did this with majority of the book. Horrors may have a place in a few Daemon lists in exchange for the GD being a Greater Daemon, but we will have to wait and see.

You guys dont really think horrors are that much better in close combat now that when 1 dies it does a S2 hit on an enemy.....

How would you have made them more viable? Its easy to critisize but I'm curious as to how you think they should work.

They're effectivly the core shooty unit, thematically substituting traditional shooting for magic, which makes sense as they're both minions of the god of magic and daemons are made of magic.

IMO, they're intended to be used starting at small units (maybe 10-15) and spam magic to increase their numbers and become stronger as the game goes along.
The focus on the Str2 thing is focusing on the wrong aspect of what they bring to the table.

warplock
05-03-2013, 13:46
They hit on 4+, you roll a number of d6 equal to the numbers of counters and then for each 4+ roll a s2 hit. They hit on 4+.

Still the most accurate troop in the game as they will hit a WS10 (fencer's blades) Chaos Lord with Mark of Nurgle (-1 to hit) on a 4+, whereas every other troop will hit on 5+ or worse ;) And as for S2, that is just as strong vs a Sphynx as S6 is (armour modification notwithstanding). In fact it could be an advantage, against a DE Pendant of Khaeleth, for example...

Soulless
05-03-2013, 14:33
i think horror unit should be run at 20 man. I'm still thinking if full command group is in order. With +3 to the casting roll you can safelly try to cast a spell on 1 or 2 dice (the defoult one). They are the best at getting new models (on 4+) so when the enemy gets at you you should bummped to 25 at least (even concidering missile fire). The 2 attacks on 4+ with s2 for dead Horror is also a great boon. Tell it to my friends swormasters - if thay munch my 20 horror unit i will roll 40 dice to hit them back. Sure not as great as with locus for potential of 80 hits but still can be a problem for certian units.

I think i will go with tzeensh and slanenshi combo. Nurgle I concider to boring to bother with and khorne is only there to convert the cannon to tzeensh fire blaster (without warpfire rule).

Also i dont know why people have so much hate for the flamers - sure they arent the broken OP unit thay used to be before but are now considered totally and utterly crappy.

decker_cky
05-03-2013, 18:31
IMO, they're intended to be used starting at small units (maybe 10-15) and spam magic to increase their numbers and become stronger as the game goes along.
The focus on the Str2 thing is focusing on the wrong aspect of what they bring to the table.

I think the best use might be to focus all the new horrors on a single unit, giving you a solid steadfast unit as you blast away your opponent.

The bearded one
05-03-2013, 18:41
5x10, or 50x1? That's the question :p




I'd be enticed to go with 5x10 just because it looks funky and I get lots of channels :D

decker_cky
05-03-2013, 18:47
I'm thinking 1 bigger unit (20ish) and 2-3 smaller units. Then load the bigger unit with heralds, one of which has the +1 ST loci. By the time the enemy reaches your lines, that 20 man unit will likely be closer to 50. :P

Soulless
05-03-2013, 18:54
I dont think that higher loci will stack. Althought if +1 from each herald would be viable it would trully be very nasty combo.

decker_cky
05-03-2013, 19:41
Not +1 for each herald, +1 strength to each herald. 5-6 wizards with boosted magic missiles is a good deal, and it means you'll create more horrors as well.

DaemonReign
05-03-2013, 19:44
So everything gw does is perfect and noone can complain because it is "boring thinking" and "pathetic".


I think "pathetic" is not even think about how something could be done better. "Pathetic" is to eat a ******** meal just because someone put it in front of you on the table. "Pathetic" is to spend your time reading things you think are "pathetic".

I bet you said the same about chaos marauders complains, go to a championship and count how many horrors are being used.

Woah!! I assure you man you misread my post appearantly taking offense from my use of the Word 'pathetic' as if that was directed at you.
It wasn't. These things are 'lost in translation' when typing to each other over a chat but all I meant to do was muse over the fact that so much changed in the new DoC book that it becomes rather futile to concider a tiny Little detail like this.
And you're knocking in an open door too becuase I'm the one guy you'll meet on these boards that isn't prepared to 'just take whatever peice of crap' GW hands me. Have been working for 2 years to avoid being chained to whatever idiocy GW had in stall for Daemons and I'm still not sure whether or not I'll even give Ward's book a fighting chance.

@ HereComesTomorrow: Like I said previously the only thing horrors really needed was an honest update to the Lore of Tzeentch (i.e. the four fixed spells they got). But again the issue is kinda moot at this Point seeing as the entire book got heavily revamped. The definately needed changing in the book we got that's for sure - so in that regard things could have been worse I suppose.. :)