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View Full Version : How do WE, Brettonia and Beastmen fare now?



Grix
06-03-2013, 18:48
With the recent release of WOC and DOC, what do you guys feel will happen to these three armies over the next year or two until they are redone? I don't really play much of the first two armies, in fact in my Meta there is one Bret player and once in a blue moon the WE player shows up. But I play Beastmen, and it feels like a kick in the teeth how these last two released armies when I compare them to my Beastmen. Now I understand that under ETC comp Beastmen do get some what of a boost, but we don't play that around where I live. So I have just my book to compete and most of the time my results are not too great.

So, how do you think they will fare after these two books and down the road when HE, LM, DE and potentially Dwarfs get redone?

Von Wibble
06-03-2013, 19:40
Currently I feel that every redone book actually improves the wood elf army book.

Every time a book is done, the overpowered elements have been nerfed. Generally the strongest components are not as nasty as previous overpowered stuff. Therefore the power of the top build of the army has weakened, but more builds are useable.

About the only problem I see is that the flaming, magical cannon is basically made to 1 shot treemen - for less than half the price.

popisdead
06-03-2013, 20:04
Beastmen have always been fun if you know how to use them. More and more players are becoming more successful with them with alternate builds as well. You'll find the best help at the herdstone. Someone won a tournament with 8 Minotuars, no real Gor units, no Bestigors and a Jabberslythe. Take that internets!

Wood Elves continue to suffer every new book.

SteveW
06-03-2013, 20:05
Brets only problem is being an old stale book. Wood Elves suffer from many things not solved by other books being redone.

Juicy21
06-03-2013, 21:01
While i LOVE my bretonnians, The book with just 12 different unit choises bothers me.. Its old and in need of some real upgrades.. I had some luck and ended up second in a tourney last month but thats with the characterbus list withs is getting boring to play atm:P
I do agree with Von wibble.. Every new 8th book makes the old UP books a little better and better to play

tmarichards
06-03-2013, 22:25
Brets are still a strong army if played right.

Beast men are towards the weaker end of the spectrum of newer books.

Wood Elves are borderline unplayable :(

hads97
06-03-2013, 22:41
Beastmen are fun and are very good at close combat. However, there are few options when facing terrorgheist, chimera or other tough flying enemies (pegasus, disc riders, etc.). We just can't kill those flying monsters other than with Cygor's (~100 points overcosted) catapult, spells or ungor shortbows. Beasts need something effective to face those enemies.

I see Daemons easier to beat than before (with beasts)

Spiney Norman
07-03-2013, 09:43
Currently I feel that every redone book actually improves the wood elf army book.

Every time a book is done, the overpowered elements have been nerfed. Generally the strongest components are not as nasty as previous overpowered stuff. Therefore the power of the top build of the army has weakened, but more builds are useable.

About the only problem I see is that the flaming, magical cannon is basically made to 1 shot treemen - for less than half the price.

QFT
All that really needs to be done now is the two other elf books need to be redone (nerf the Hydra and abolish SoA) and wood elves should be looking much better. There are still plenty of non-choices in the WE book, but they are by no means unplayable. The just have only 1 list that works; archers, supported by treemen, treekin & dryads led by a L4 life mage.

HereComesTomorrow
07-03-2013, 10:27
While i LOVE my bretonnians, The book with just 12 different unit choises bothers me.. Its old and in need of some real upgrades.. I had some luck and ended up second in a tourney last month but thats with the characterbus list withs is getting boring to play atm:P
I do agree with Von wibble.. Every new 8th book makes the old UP books a little better and better to play

What's even worse is that out of the 12 units, several are no longer viable.

tmarichards
07-03-2013, 11:39
QFT
All that really needs to be done now is the two other elf books need to be redone (nerf the Hydra and abolish SoA) and wood elves should be looking much better. There are still plenty of non-choices in the WE book, but they are by no means unplayable. The just have only 1 list that works; archers, supported by treemen, treekin & dryads led by a L4 life mage.

Not really. As they stand, High Elves and Wood Elves are 2 of the best match-ups for Wood Elves unless they bring a dragon or a Light Council.

Aa hydra is simply free points for Wood Elves unless the list is awful, in which case it's your own fault. 18 flaming GG at short range then a HoDA will, more often than not, kill it outright.

SoA is completely irrelevant for Wood Elves, as nothing could fight them even if they didn't have it. The issue is that White Lions are very resistant to shooting, and Light Councils (one of the current top HE builds) can spam a lot of magic missiles which are extremely effective against Wood Elves.

I'll agree that there is only one build that works (Treeman-centric play is essential), but it's not quite as rigid as you outlined.

Daniel36
07-03-2013, 11:45
Might I add they are an absolute blast to play in a Storm of Magic game. My WE versus my friend's Beastmen, best game I've ever played.

Banville
07-03-2013, 12:30
[QUOTE=HereComesTomorrow;6671447]What's even worse is that out of the 12 units, several are no longer viable.[/QUOT

Explain.

I'd argue that all the units are viable but only in large numbers. Large EXPENSIVE numbers.

Polaria
07-03-2013, 12:32
Beastmen are limited, but 8th edition as a whole was a huge buff to them. The most recent books, however, really show how bad the Beastmen Rares are.

Sexiest_hero
07-03-2013, 13:30
Yeah beastmen rares are hard to use. That saidthey have the best chaff (razorgors) best magic (herdstone) and two of the best lord choices (Doombull/Great bray shaman). Non of these armies are "Bad" they can be very hard to use. We should never get in combat outside of tree kin, Bretts should always get two lance charges off, and Beastmen live or die by debuffs. IMHO of course.

Ero-Senin
07-03-2013, 14:04
QFT
All that really needs to be done now is the two other elf books need to be redone (nerf the Hydra and abolish SoA) and wood elves should be looking much better. There are still plenty of non-choices in the WE book, but they are by no means unplayable. The just have only 1 list that works; archers, supported by treemen, treekin & dryads led by a L4 life mage.

This list is completely destroyed by lore of metal (treeman's bane). I agree that wood elves are still playable but only in an avoid and shoot list which gets boring very quickly and isn't always that effective.

Spiney Norman
07-03-2013, 14:11
This list is completely destroyed by lore of metal (treeman's bane). I agree that wood elves are still playable but only in an avoid and shoot list which gets boring very quickly and isn't always that effective.

Uh-huh, so because there are a couple of spells in one of the games magic lores clearly no WE should ever take a treeman again. Just like no Lizardmen player should take Saurus or temple guard because of the risk of facing PSX or pit of shades...

To be honest a cannon (or the new daemonic flaming cannon) is a much greater risk to a treeman than searing doom because they cannot be dispelled.

I didn't say the tree list was an auto-win button, there is no OP wood elf list currently, but it is the only really viable wood elf build.

EddieJA
07-03-2013, 14:13
Can't speak for Brets or WE, but I played Beastmen with my Empire army last week, and it was a good game. I won, but it wasn't a landslide by any means. He managed to get off Savage Dominion just about every turn, forcing me to use my considerable shooting phase to deal with the Ghorgon sitting behind my lines.

Still wish they would redo Brets. I'm known as the "human guy" in my store, and I'd pick up Bretts if they got a new book and some new units.

Blinder
07-03-2013, 14:24
What's even worse is that out of the 12 units, several are no longer viable.

Explain.

I'd argue that all the units are viable but only in large numbers. Large EXPENSIVE numbers.

Large EXPENSIVE numbers that mean in order for them to do anything meaningful they can quickly cripple the rest of your force (assuming you mean Grails here- they can be made to work, but you have to pile so much support on them to make them work *reliably* it can be rediculous, especially if you want them for more than one fight). Though, the only really "non-viable" unit (not counting named characters) would IMO be Questing Knights... just about everything else is in the "works, with some help" category... sure you can buff them so they're not so easy to put wounds on and hope they don't just whiff, but... I'd almost rather just run a block of M@A into whatever I thought I needed the GW's for.

I'm with the "every book that tones down existing silliness makes the game nicer for all" crowd. Sure, it'd be nice to have our units updated and the point-costs tweaked, but I'm not going to get jealous about WoC getting spiffy new monsters and I didn't when WoC also lost a fair number of things that could make them a dull army to play against, for example. Also, I'm honestly not looking forward to having our character system gutted under the 8E "streamlined customization" programme...

Ero-Senin
07-03-2013, 14:46
Uh-huh, so because there are a couple of spells in one of the games magic lores clearly no WE should ever take a treeman again. Just like no Lizardmen player should take Saurus or temple guard because of the risk of facing PSX or pit of shades...

To be honest a cannon (or the new daemonic flaming cannon) is a much greater risk to a treeman than searing doom because they cannot be dispelled.

I didn't say the tree list was an auto-win button, there is no OP wood elf list currently, but it is the only really viable wood elf build.

It's the fact that the sig spell of metal is so devastating to treemen and treekin and if someone knows you are bringing wood elves they can pre plan this very effectively. Without treemen and treekin, or with them being killed so easily, all that you have left are archers and a skirmishing infantry unit which will almost always lose combat because it cant have rank bonus.

Im not saying you shouldn't ever take treemen (i tnd to always try to take 2) it's just that currently the WE book makes for very similar battles over and over again as there is only really a couple of decent builds whioch are very vulnerable to alot of stuff.

Blagan
07-03-2013, 15:07
Beastmen have always been fun if you know how to use them. More and more players are becoming more successful with them with alternate builds as well. You'll find the best help at the herdstone. Someone won a tournament with 8 Minotuars, no real Gor units, no Bestigors and a Jabberslythe. Take that internets!

Wood Elves continue to suffer every new book.

What tournament was this? I'm guessing only a scrub event, as the only decent result Beasts have done recently was Ben Diesel where he had an extreme amount of good fortune.

Beastmen are suffering more now than ever, K'daii could quite probably beat a 2400pt all comers beastmen list on it's own.
Beastmen players should also cringe at the thought of playing against Beasts of nurgle too, they are going to wreck beast face, as are the cannons going to take Treeman out of the game 100% for the few players who do actually still use them.

Bretts are still fine, just need some new units to freshen them up.

Banville
07-03-2013, 15:57
[QUOTE=Blinder;6671736]Large EXPENSIVE numbers that mean in order for them to do anything meaningful they can quickly cripple the rest of your force (assuming you mean Grails here- they can be made to work, but you have to pile so much support on them to make them work *reliably* it can be rediculous, especially if you want them for more than one fight). Though, the only really "non-viable" unit (not counting named characters) would IMO be Questing Knights... just about everything else is in the "works, with some help" category... sure you can buff them so they're not so easy to put wounds on and hope they don't just whiff, but... I'd almost rather just run a block of M@A into whatever I thought I needed the GW's for.

I'm with the "every book that tones down existing silliness makes the game nicer for all" crowd. Sure, it'd be nice to have our units updated and the point-costs tweaked, but I'm not going to get jealous about WoC getting spiffy new monsters and I didn't when WoC also lost a fair number of things that could make them a dull army to play against, for example. Also, I'm honestly not looking forward to having our character system gutted under the 8E "streamlined customization" programme...[/QUOTE

I agree with this. Maybe Bretonnia's "thing" will be super duper customizable characters. Here's hoping.

But I'd still say that everything (except QKs) are very viable. Lots of cheap infantry? Check. Lots of deadly character builds? Check. Powerful magic? Check. Lethal ranged potential? Check and check.

Jack of Blades
07-03-2013, 16:02
K'daii could quite probably beat a 2400pt all comers beastmen list on it's own.

You'll probably agree with what I've written below, this isn't intended to be an argument so much as me explaining which side of the fence the ball is at.

To be honest this isn't a problem with the Destroyer (though I too cannot fathom how they could put that thing in the game with those rules at that cost, it's just ridiculous and if I were to use it I'd tone it down voluntarily) so much as it is Beastmen struggling with such monsters in general - I'd wager that any Greater Daemon would be just as hard for a Beastmen army to take out as a K'daai and then we have souped up flying Chaos lords, flying blender vampires and such that could with enough time also chew through a whole army of Beastmen by themselves. Beastmen don't have a flying character to hunt such mobile powerful threats with, they don't have war machines, they don't have this and that, to a degree I think this is fluffy even if it isn't balanced for the game as they are wild beasts of Chaos and not an organised civilisation that assesses and deals with the known threats they face.

Juicy21
07-03-2013, 16:14
[QUOTE=HereComesTomorrow;6671447]What's even worse is that out of the 12 units, several are no longer viable.[/QUOT

Explain.

I'd argue that all the units are viable but only in large numbers. Large EXPENSIVE numbers.

its hard not to laugh atm reading this.. Not to be rude but the choices are pretty awfull atm compared to other books.. 12 choises and Questing knights and grail religue are there for fluff reasons ONLY and while mounted yeoman are an oke choice at the best.(best thing is they wont cause panic to our knight blocks)
Knights Errants are fun to play but most people never take them..
Lets see those peasant archers are one of the better archers ingame point for point. BUT bs shooting is kinda terrible atm..
We do have a very and i mean very good warmachine.
Grailknights are almost 40 points a model and die just as fast as a knight of the realm.
Pegasus knights are one of the best units in the book i think.

Just look at the roundtableofbretonnia page and you know people are stilling winning and have loads of fun with brets including me. But i think most people agree that the book needs a redone.

Sexiest_hero
07-03-2013, 17:25
A tooled up doombull on average will wipe the floor with a bloodthirster. He has a 50/50 chance against the dreaded Vampire lord. He'll beat HPA and Hydras without breaking a sweat. The Bret lord will just HKB all of the above. Beasts also get the have 12 dice no matter what" herdstone.Head over to the beastmen/bret/WE websites.

DrMooreFlava
07-03-2013, 17:35
Nobody mentions the DWARFS! They are the most one dimensional army. It isn't fun to play with or against the dwarf army which is essentially a gun line every time. No new books can fix this problem.

Xerkics
07-03-2013, 18:21
Imo bret are a well rounded army compared to dwarfs. Cheap steadfast men at arms , great archers with flaming arrers. Possibly best stone throwers in game flying cavalry , cheap core cavalry HKB on chars acess to beasts and life and now dwarfs : infantry and warmachines and some cool magic items. Brets are way more fun and versatile. Mostly all plastic too dwarfs are mostly metal.

Charistoph
07-03-2013, 18:42
Bretonnians are as much metal as Dwarfs. The only plastic non-core are the Pegasus Knights. Now, there are more options for converting other plastic models to be Bret Specials and Rares, but that's not quite the same thing.

Beastmen are fine if you play to their strengths. Unfortunately, those strengths can be limited, and some of the non-character big killers tend to be the far too overpriced and defenseless Rares. Sadly, the general lack of defenses in the army combined with low Ld is one of the major sticking points.

WE, on the other hand, were screwed over from edition to edition. Changes from Unit Size to Ranks and the devolution of Skirmishing really hurt their abilities. Can they win, yes, but it's like a bowman fighting a modern soldier. If the bowman plays his cards right, the soldier is screwed, but it doesn't take much for the Joker to pop his head out and allow for the soldier to take out the bowman.

Juicy21
07-03-2013, 21:02
Compared to dwarfs i say yes... Because dwarfs are even worse of then brets ..

wait.. lets say that Beasts/Dwarfs/woodelves/Bretonnians need a big remake.. But they probly do Lizardmen/Highelves/Darkelves first anyway..

DrMooreFlava
07-03-2013, 21:16
yep cuz lizards/HE/DE need to be balanced and nerf'd asap.

JWhex
07-03-2013, 22:02
Nobody mentions the DWARFS! They are the most one dimensional army. It isn't fun to play with or against the dwarf army which is essentially a gun line every time. No new books can fix this problem.

I am not sure how even a new dwarf army book is going to fix this problem. The dwarfs need a radical change that will cause nerd brain implosions on all the inhabited continents. The dwarfs are just a boring army to play in whfb.

Doommasters
07-03-2013, 23:40
The new WOC book really hurts Woodies. I know this as my main army is WE and we have a number of players with WoC books....there mobility really hurts the MSU tactics of the WE. Flying Chimeras with both an armour and regen save just crash through gladguard and the Daemon Prince can do whatever he wants as bow fire does very little with his 1+ armour and stats. Our best chance is if we face Khorne units as frenzy can be used to our advantage, but alas Nurgle is the flavour of this edition and t3 elves with no warmachines get smashed. In saying that I actually really like the WoC book and have no issues with the power level of the army at all.....as everyone knows WE need a new book for this esition.

tmarichards
08-03-2013, 00:03
I agree with Doommasters.

However, I don't think it's such a bad thing- on the whole, WoC actually look to be a pretty solid book, good without being too OTT and having several viable options. Any army that revolves around armour is always going to be tough on WE, but tbh I'd rather that they ignored WE completely and balanced books against the other 8th edition armies rather than taking into account a book from 6th edition.

Xerkics
08-03-2013, 00:25
I think wood elves are actually somewhat better of with new WoC book, the new mark of nurgle doesnt protect against shooting any more.. Obviously chimeras might be an issue but they arent that tough and we have a bucket load of shooting.

minionboy
08-03-2013, 00:27
I don't play Brets, but I hear they're doing pretty good, that said, I do play Beastmen and High Elves.

Beastmen work well with multiple hordes of troops and lots of shadow mages. Their monsters are a tad over priced, but overall, I think the book is still pretty solid, I definitely win as often as I lose.

Wood Elves are definitely a challenge to play, but if they play for the win (instead of playing to stomp the opponent to dirt) they can actually do alright, just be sure to get your 100 points and run a way.

Smithpod68
08-03-2013, 00:48
Personally being a LONG time We player I actually find my army doing fine. I'm not a big tourney player,but finished third in the last one I did. I find Lore of Life is great and it comes down to Tactics. I would definetly like a new book,but I don't feel at a disadvantage at all.

m1acca1551
08-03-2013, 01:03
Brets can pack a punch... they are still capable of doing really well in games as long as they left there rubber lances at home... other wise...

WE can be a real wild card in the hands of a good general... they can be very frustrating to deal with and have upset more than a few game nights with surprise wins. In the hands of an "noob" well they are like oragami... they fold under the slightest pressure

Beastmen... can pack a nasty punch but... they do rely on 1-2 units or individuals to do the heavy lifting... i love beasts but atm they are essentially hairy orcs with attitude imo :)

Doommasters
08-03-2013, 01:44
I think wood elves are actually somewhat better of with new WoC book, the new mark of nurgle doesnt protect against shooting any more.. Obviously chimeras might be an issue but they arent that tough and we have a bucket load of shooting.

Warriors were never the main issue are still are not as they are slow and WE are fast. The big change is mobility with good armor saves that makes life even more difficult. If you look at WoC's new tools many of them are fast with high armor high toughness or both its not that woc are broken just that WE do not have many tools to deal with the combinations 8th woc can put on the table (if waywatchers were cheaper or better dealing with fast armor would be much easier).

Not looking forward to flamming cannons of Khorne killing my treemen and treekin though.....

Charistoph
08-03-2013, 05:33
Beastmen... can pack a nasty punch but... they do rely on 1-2 units or individuals to do the heavy lifting... i love beasts but atm they are essentially hairy orcs with attitude imo :)

If only they were as diverse as the Greenskins...