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Unforgiven
09-06-2005, 17:41
I hear that Lion El Jonson was supposed to have a fight with Lemon Russ at some point in the stories. The problem is that i heard two versions, one from a dark angel player and one from a space wolf...

Can somebody fill me in on the details? (Like who won for a start!)

MidnightResistance
09-06-2005, 19:59
They fought for 3 days straight without rest.
Seeing that they were complete equals, Russ saw the funny side and laughed.
Johnson used this to club him unconscious and then he cleared off to do whatever it was he did next.

So Johnson won...but not very honourabley.

Unforgiven
09-06-2005, 20:05
Thanks very much for clearing that up for me. That's pretty much what I heard, just wanted a bit of clarification.

(It's his own fault for laughing in the middle of a fight for crying out load!)

Xisor
09-06-2005, 20:07
I think, as an impartial Salamanders player, it was perfectly honourable, considering how dishonourable things had been so far.

Russ started the whole thing, and simply realising it was a waste of time doesn't really cut the mustard when you've paralysed the leadership of two Astartes Legions for who knows how long. So the Lion, suitably annoyed, clobbered him.

For all the Lion knew, that 'arch-arsonist' or whoever he was could have escaped in the time that they would have had to wait for the Space Wolves to show up. Russ was being immature IMO. He always deserved a good wallop, and got one on many occassion. Seems to have learned his lesson eventually.

Xisor

MidnightResistance
09-06-2005, 20:08
Not at all!
I really like Russ, he's the embodiment of the Space Wolf spirit. Infact I sorta think of Sean Connery in HIGHLANDER (face and character wise) when I think of Russ.
I'm a Dark Angels player too

Unforgiven
09-06-2005, 20:12
How exactly did russ start it? I think that it had something to do with Jonson killing someone before russ got there...but i'm probably wrong. Care to correct me anyone?

MidnightResistance
09-06-2005, 20:20
I can't remember. I thought they got into a fight because... they blamed one another for a tactical oversight or had a difference of tactical opinion or...whatever *shrug*

wait for Dan Abnett to write all the Horus Heresy story books...which knowing him will be...3...2...1...now. :)

Apollyon
09-06-2005, 20:21
The Lion and the Wolf have fought on at least 3 occasions, the one mentioned above, one that ended in a draw and after the Seige of Terra.(Where Johnson blamed Russ (rightly) for the Emperor's death and Johnson stabbed Russ in the heart.)

Xisor
09-06-2005, 20:21
Thats my point. They were both storming an enemy strongpoint. The Lion killed 'the baddy' before Russ could get there, and he was 'put out'(I would saying crying like a baby, but that's probably not quite accurate) by this. So he started a fight with the Lion about it.

Thats how he started it. IIRC. If I'm wrong, uh oh.

Xisor

MidnightResistance
09-06-2005, 20:21
I'm starting to think that Johnson really wasn't very nice at all...

Unforgiven
09-06-2005, 20:30
I'm starting to think he was a real bad ass fighter (and commander).

Even so, that more or less fills the gaps of what I wanted to know...perhaps I should read one of the books or something...nah! Though I would like to know a bit more.

Inquisitor Samos
09-06-2005, 20:43
There was really nothing "nice" about either Russ or Johnson: they were Primarchs, the ultimate warriors of the Emperor. "Nice" wasn't part of their natures.

But they were both honorable, and ever loyal to their father the Emperor and his goals for Humanity.

In defense of Russ's attitude at their first fight, he felt that Johnson had robbed him of his chance to defend his honor by killing the Tyrant Durath, who had called Russ "the Emperor's lap dog" and not worthy of a battle. Being raised in a Norse culture, this was an unforgivable affront, and Russ had vowed to kill Durath personally. Johnson's actions had thus prevented Russ from fulfilling what was essentially an honor oath.

For Johnson's part, of course, he saw Russ's attitude as being too hot-headed, and realized Durath was goading Russ into a pre-arranged trap; his plans put a stop to that. He saw Russ's reaction of physically attacking him over it as being completely over the top; Russ's initial unnanounced blow could only be honorably satisfied in Johnson's eyes by clocking Russ.

Both of them, bound up in their own views of honorable action. Probably explains why they were always at odds, even after they learned to respect each other and work together.

Koraath
09-06-2005, 21:34
But even though they had this rivallry i read that supposedly one of the reasons russ left was to try and find jonson?

athamas
09-06-2005, 21:46
which one stabbed the other? i remember that one is missing some 'vital' organ, but i cant remember which one?

TheSonOfAbbadon
09-06-2005, 21:52
The Lion and the Wolf have fought on at least 3 occasions, the one mentioned above, one that ended in a draw and after the Seige of Terra.(Where Johnson blamed Russ (rightly) for the Emperor's death and Johnson stabbed Russ in the heart.)

I thought it was Johnson who was more to blame, because Johnson was trying to purge all the heretic on the way to Terra, while Russ was trying to get to Terra as fast as possible.

Or maybe I got it the wrong way round.

MidnightResistance
09-06-2005, 21:55
Russ' character has been better explained in the combined 40K fluff, whereas there is little or no mention of Johnson's character, save for Fallen Angels slagging him off (a lot) in Angels of Darkness and Deathwing...
I'm crossing my fingers for his Horus Heresy novel series

Koraath
09-06-2005, 21:56
also russ let jonson stab him, so jonson does, punctures russ' secondary heart but turns the blade away from his primary heart just in time when he realises what he is doing

Rövhalt
10-06-2005, 06:38
They both seem very childish to me... maybe papa Emperor should have taken his time to raise his offspring properly. Spoiled brats...

Eldacar
10-06-2005, 07:31
What were you expecting?


But even though they had this rivallry i read that supposedly one of the reasons russ left was to try and find jonson?
IIRC, Johnson is alive, but was taken by those little creatures into the depths of the Fortress-Monastery, and he will be returned when he is needed.

I'm not sure why Russ left. AFAIK, the Space Wolves were having a victory feast after the completion of the Thousand Sons incident, and Russ was up on the table, before he froze and suffered from something (not sure what). He then gave orders, before he took a group of his best men and just left to go somewhere. I'm not sure what else occurred.
Does anybody else know about this?

Typheron
10-06-2005, 10:33
IIRC, Johnson is alive, but was taken by those little creatures into the depths of the Fortress-Monastery, and he will be returned when he is needed.


there called the watchers in the dark, although no-one knows who they are or what they are.

As for Russ im fairly sure he went off on a special crusade into the EoT, was his armour not found at some point in a chaos temple somewhere?

athamas
10-06-2005, 10:39
i think he went to rescue the cursed ones,

or simular!

MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 10:39
Russ' helmet was found in the chaos temple and is now worn by Ulrik The Slayer.

Karhedron
10-06-2005, 10:43
But even though they had this rivallry i read that supposedly one of the reasons russ left was to try and find jonson?
One legend holds that Russ went off in search of Johnson after he disappeared during the destruction of Caliban. However in their usual way of leaving stuff open-ended, that is just a legend. According to Bjorn the Fell-handed (the only one still alive who was there at the time), Russ's eyes became glazed as if he had received a vision. He suddenly got up from the feasting table, gathered a handful of retainers and left the Fang without giving any word of where he was going.

Some time later, a Space Wolf Great Hunt recovered his armour from a Temple of Horus on the edge of the EoT. What he was doing near the EoT is a mystery although it seems likely that he is now dead since I cannot imagine him being parted from his armour otherwise.

"Sure you can have my armour Horus-worshippers. When you prise it off my cold, dead body!" :D


which one stabbed the other? i remember that one is missing some 'vital' organ, but i cant remember which one?
Johnson stabbed Russ through the heart just after the Seige of Terra. Russ had insisted on stopping off to fight various Chaos forces on their way to Terra and Johnson blamed him for arriving too late to save the Emperor. He challenged him to a duel which Russ refused to fight. Johnson pulled his blow at the last second or he would have got his second heart too which would have been fatal, even for a Primarch. As it was Russ, survived and forgave Johnson.

It is worth noting though that Johnson was pretty unfair in blaming Russ for this. During one of their battles on the way to Terra, they recovered an artifact which aided warp navigation. Without this, they would have taken even longer to reach Terra so Russ was probably right to stop and fight.

Ruskins
10-06-2005, 10:47
In regards to the Heresy, i believe it was Russ who wanted to race to earth and help the Emperor, johnson agreed also but on the way they came across a chaos ridden traitor star fortress orbiting some system, that contained something really nasty, nasty enough to be a threat to the whole sector. Russ and Johnson argued about wether to destroy it and delay thier arrival at earth or to just go around it and leave it alone. In the end Russ agreed with the Lion but upon arrival at Terra and finding the Emperor mortally wounded i think russ blamed the lion for delaying them.

Eldacar
10-06-2005, 11:27
there called the watchers in the dark, although no-one knows who they are or what they are.
That's the name. Now I remember.


Some time later, a Space Wolf Great Hunt recovered his armour from a Temple of Horus on the edge of the EoT. What he was doing near the EoT is a mystery although it seems likely that he is now dead since I cannot imagine him being parted from his armour otherwise.
And if they only recovered his helmet, then Russ could possibly still be alive. But would a Primarch be able to live that long? Magnus and the others are Daemon Primarchs now, but would Russ still be alive?

MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 11:29
Primarchs are immortal

athamas
10-06-2005, 11:31
yes, but even imortal creatures can be stabbed, poisoned, and generaly beaten up!

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-06-2005, 11:33
Immortal just means they won't die of old age.

Typheron
10-06-2005, 11:50
well supposedly the primarch of the White Scars is still alive in commoragh, home of the dark eldar where he ended up after chasing them into the web way. Although its not confiremed as him, just tales of a uber powerful human fighting in the galdiator pits.

So on the (admitally huge*) assumption that this is the Primarch of the white scars they seam to be 'ard enough to fight on a regular basis for serveral millenia.

*this is of course a massive assumption on my part as to the natue of the fighter within the pits of commaragh and as such its probably completly and totally wrong, but how cool is it if im right? and whats the main rule of the 40k galaxy, thats right the rule of cool. hmm perhaps being locked in this computer lab for almost 3 days straight is having an effect on me...

Karhedron
10-06-2005, 11:59
Primarchs are immortal
Actually that is debatable. The fluff has sometimes hinted that unlike the Emperor, the Primarchs were not immortal. The only ones still up and about today have certainly gained immortality as daemons. Whether any of the loyalist Primarchs would still be alive had they not met with "accidents" is unknown.


And if they only recovered his helmet, then Russ could possibly still be alive.
They recovered the entire suit of armour, not just the helm. Also it is possible that Russ did not take his signature "Wolf helm" with him when he left. The Primarchs undoubtedly had the pick of their Legions' wargear, I am sure Russ had more than one helmet. He may already have stopped using it (given it as a gift to Bjorn for instance).


In regards to the Heresy, i believe it was Russ who wanted to race to earth and help the Emperor.
No, it was Johnson who was in a hurry. Neither Primarch knew exactly how bad the Seige of Terra was and Russ wanted to stop and attack every Chaos target they came accross.

Ruskins
10-06-2005, 12:05
can never remember this stuff well enough.

Sai-Lauren
10-06-2005, 12:29
Neither Primarch knew exactly how bad the Seige of Terra was and Russ wanted to stop and attack every Chaos target they came accross.
Which does make some sense, after all, you don't want to have fought your way into being utterly encircled.

To my memory, Russ and El'Johnson only fought once - after the tyrant as already said. Russ had vowed various things for the insult (eating his heart amongst them IIRC), but El'Johnson took the Dark Angels in ahead of the Wolves, and killed the tyrant before Russ could fight his way through after them.
Russ was the much more emotional of the two, and attack El'Johnson for denying him his vow - but Russ finally saw how futile the fight was and broke off laughing. El'Johnson was much slower to calm down and knocked Russ out, then other duties took him and the Angels away before Russ woke up. (Very handy if you ask me ;))

This is the fight the Angels and Wolves recreate by choosing a champion when the chapters meet.

The incident on earth wasn't a fight - Russ saw the devastation of Terra, wept and bared his chest to El'Johnson, begging him to kill him. He was refused at first, but he kept on and eventually El'Johnson snapped, drew his blade and stabbed at Russ' second heart. But he realised what he was doing, and twisted the blade aside, turing a lethal wound into a serious one.

Once again, Lion El'Johnson had gone by the time Russ was about, this time to Caliban to deal with Luther.


Primarchs are immortal
Nope, very long lived certainly, but still mortal. There's at least one version of the post-heresy years fluff that has primarchs passing on due to age.

Rövhalt
10-06-2005, 13:28
But was the Emperor really immortal? He is now sitting on that yellow toilet, but whether he really could live to the End of Times I doubt very much...

MidnightResistance
10-06-2005, 13:32
REVERE THE IMMORTAL EMPEROR!

(pst, he's in stasis)

Nagothrand
10-06-2005, 16:14
Does the Golden Throne put the Emperor into stasis? How does he do the Soul Binding then? Old fluff sources mention him being able to communicate psychically shortly after his ascension, so he shouldn't be able to do this if he is experiencing near-zero subjective time. Unless the Throne sttings have been tampered with...

OMG CONSPIRACY!!!1 :eek:

TheSonOfAbbadon
10-06-2005, 16:44
He's not in stasis, he's being kept alive by a huge machine.

Stasis is different, something kept within a stasis field becomes a non event mass with a quantem probability of 0. Technically, the object temporarily ceases to exist, it is kept in exactly the same condition, shape, colour etc. until the stasis field is turned off.

Or at least, that's how stasis fields work in Red Dwarf. It's pretty much the same thing.

It would be a safe assumption that the Emperor, seeing as he's lasted about 50,000 years, would never die of old age.

Also, since the Emperor has had many sons [Sensei] over his long, long life span, who are all immortal, would it not make sense that the Primarches, who are 100% Emperor DNA, would have the same powers as the Sensei, who are 50% Emperor DNA?

Inquisitor Samos
10-06-2005, 17:15
But was the Emperor really immortal? He is now sitting on that yellow toilet, but whether he really could live to the End of Times I doubt very much...
HERESY!!! ( ;) )

The background material on the Emperor's origins has him having lived from sometime around 6000 B.C. or so until the 31st Millennium A.D. when he went on the Great Crusade........ seems to me that he was doin' a pretty good job of imitating being immortal for all that time, if he isn't for real.....! :p

6th and Final Champion
10-06-2005, 17:41
I have to say I love the fluff surrounding the primarchs and the emperor. I like the unanswered question. It leaves something for me to figure out if the future.....And I hope it happens soon.

Apollyon
10-06-2005, 17:45
Johnson and Russ were like brothers and the closest of the primarchs but like brother they didn't see eye to eye an Russ DEMANDED that they attack each Chaos world on their way to Terra, while Johnson wanted to make all haste. They arrived to find their beloved father dead. Johnson blamed Russ and Russ blamed himself. They fought and Johnsen stabbed Russ with the Lion Sword turning the blow only just stopping himself from killing his brother. Johnson took Russ to to get medical attention. They promised each other they would never fight like that again. Russ did leave to find Johnson and theoreticly may be in the Rock standing vigil waiting for his brother to awaken. Russ ...imo could even be Cypher looking for his brother. Prehaps he works AGAINST Chaos from the inside and really hunts the fallen for what they did to his brother ...maybe he never escapes he is let go when capture and he makes his true identity known??? or not. ;)



which one stabbed the other? i remember that one is missing some 'vital' organ, but i cant remember which one?

chaospig
10-06-2005, 18:12
in "dark angel" it talks of how lion is arrogent and how the reason he showed up late was that he was waiting to see who won, that is why cypher fought him and took the lion sword after he beat him. russ went looking for the tree of life in a eldar world in the middle of the EoT to get the fruit to restore the emperor to life

Karhedron
10-06-2005, 18:52
Also, since the Emperor has had many sons [Sensei] over his long, long life span, who are all immortal, would it not make sense that the Primarches, who are 100% Emperor DNA, would have the same powers as the Sensei, who are 50% Emperor DNA?
The Primarchs are not 100% the Emperor's DNA. If that were the case they would all be identical copies of daddy. However the Primarchs were all radically different both in appearance and physical abilities.

According to the fluff they were artificial humanoids. This means that their DNA was created from scratch during the long years of the Age of Strife. I am certain the Emperor used elements of his own DNA in their creation but that does not make them his clones.

Unforgiven
10-06-2005, 21:15
there called the watchers in the dark, although no-one knows who they are or what they are.

I reackon they're just a pair of boots that have been animated spiritually and use robes so they can do stuff (touch things). A little boot is all you can actually see on the model for the one carrying the lion helm.

Ruskins
10-06-2005, 21:55
in "dark angel" it talks of how lion is arrogent and how the reason he showed up late was that he was waiting to see who won, that is why cypher fought him and took the lion sword after he beat him. russ went looking for the tree of life in a eldar world in the middle of the EoT to get the fruit to restore the emperor to life

Yes but all that came from one of the Fallen who had just gotten through reducing the planet he ruled population by 2/3 'in the name of the emperor'. That particular fallen angel may not have been a full on chaos nutter but i wouldnt exactly call him trustworthy either.

Wolflord Havoc
10-06-2005, 21:57
Last I heard (and this was on someones sig in the 'old' Portent) Russ was last seen Drunk, Streaking naked through a Khornite Temple.

I mean this makes perfect Sense to me - and explains perfectly why his armor was found in...wait for it...a chaos temple.

I do think he went looking for one of several things - His Brother Lion El Johnson or Khan or the holy grail (read thingy to make daddy better) but I suspect that he is the guiding force behind the 13th Coy.

These and other questions will continue to perpetuate and not be answered in next years thrilling instalment of "Codex:Space Wolves'.

Nagothrand
11-06-2005, 13:44
Last I heard (and this was on someones sig in the 'old' Portent) Russ was last seen Drunk, Streaking naked through a Khornite Temple.
.

That theory is about as official as the one where he went on the galactic pub crawl, although I haven't read anything which actually suggests another theory.

The 13th Company chased the Thousand Sons into the EoT after the attack on Prospero but Russ vanished a bit after that, so they could have met up in the EoT. I really wish GW would give more background on the 13th Co., since now they have the ingame excuse to.

Kahadras
13-06-2005, 22:26
The Lion and the Wolf have never seen eye to eye on matters of warfare. It is easy to see the friction between the two forces. One dour and sombre the other hot headed and boastful. As far as I can remember they have come to blows twice and on both occasions Lion won under questionable circumstance. In a straight fight I belive that Russ would have had the edge over Lion in sheer ability. Russ was always viewed as the best fighter (if not the best tactical thinker) amoung the Emperor's primarchs. The best tactician probably falls to Lion. Roboute was the best organiser. Dorn was the most loyal and so on and so forth.
As for Russes dissappearence he was said to be on a quest for the tree of life which would resurrect the Emperor. As for his abandoned equipment I belive that Boromer puts it best...

'One does not simply walk into Mordor.'

Russ may have abandoned his arms and equipment (seeing this as a pilgrimage to redeem himslef in the eyes of the Emperor. Walking into the Eye of Terror dressed as a Space Wolf may not have been the best idea in the world.

Kahadras

Xhalax
13-06-2005, 22:37
Would walking into the Eye of Terror looking like anything at all be the best idea in the world?

Kahadras
13-06-2005, 22:52
Would walking into the Eye of Terror looking like anything at all be the best idea in the world?

It is if it's the place where what you seek is located.

Kahadras

Xhalax
13-06-2005, 23:07
True...but I doubt the things in the Eye of Terror would give you an easy time in locating whatever it is you're after.

And I get the feeling that Russ would be rather recognisable even without his armour.

Kahadras
13-06-2005, 23:51
Remeber that the Eye of Terror is a very, very, very large place. Although it is a stronghold of Chaos it would be easy to loose one man in that size of space. The Thirteenth company managed it and they WERE equipt with power armour and there was more of them. I cannot see any problem with Russ entering the Eye to look for the tree. As for recognisable all he would look like is a very big man. concidering the kind of people who dwell within the Eye I doubt he would turn any heads unless he ran around sreaming 'For the Emperor' and bashing people on the head with a chainsword.

Kahadras

Xhalax
14-06-2005, 00:16
With Russ...that wouldnt surprise me. Though not even the great and mighty Leman Russ could hope to remain totally unnoticed and undeafeted in the Realm of Chaos.

The 13th Co. haven't exactly had a picnic in the Eye of Terror. They're a small force and have had to scrap together replacements and repair for their armour from their very foes. Plus they're not exactly totally diseffected by what they've been through.

Also, times move differently within the Eye, so to the 13th Co. they may not have felt as if they've been in there for 10,000 years. If that was the case, then they'd probably have taken quite a battering in what was to them a short space of time.

And, if Russ did turn up, how would the rest of the Imperium react to him. A Primarch walking out of the Eye of Terror. I could imagine the Inquisition being less than happy. Even though he's a Primarch. Plus the balance of power would shift too.

Though, it would all depend in how complacent that Chaos is in the Eye. If they feel that no Imperial could survive all that long in their domain, then they probably would be lax in their sercurity. Which would allow Russ to dance around the Eye.
But I don't think that even Chaos is that dumb.

Kahadras
14-06-2005, 01:00
And, if Russ did turn up, how would the rest of the Imperium react to him. A Primarch walking out of the Eye of Terror. I could imagine the Inquisition being less than happy. Even though he's a Primarch.

If you read the back story it is belived that Russ will return as all of the Primarchs are expected to (apart from Sanguinius who is most definatly dead). Robute will rise from his seat on Ultramar. Lion will emerge from his fortress. Ferrus and Corax will return for the Last Battle.
When the Primarchs I expect the Inquisiton will wet itself. If or when Russ returns it will signal Armageddon and the end of the Imperium. The Inquisition is loyal to the Emperor and the Primarchs are one step below that of the Emperor (remember that the Primarchs were created by the Emperor to fight against Chaos). I don't see a problem with Russ surviving in the Eye. If you look at a map of the Galaxy the Eye is millions of light years in diameter and as you said time flows differently. I don't find it at all strange that Russ has knocked around there for a bit. Given the sheer size of the Eye I reckon you could loose armies inside it (thats why the traitors retreated to it to prevent the vengeful Imperium pursuing them). There is only one safe way into and out of the Eye (Cadia) so it is very defencable from both ways. As the Imperium has weakened over time the Eye has turned from a defencible fortress into a place where the renegades can strike at the servants of the Emperor. The Eye should not be viewed as a massive fortress just a place that is easily defendable as it really has only one way in or out.

Kahadras

Xhalax
14-06-2005, 01:42
Yes, he'll defy everything and no matter what level of death he's held on, he'll answer the cries of his children in their time of most needed (The Wolf Time), then they are all dying.

Though if the entire Imperium is that screwed and the Chapters are dying, would the return of a hand full of Primarches really be able to save the Imperium?
I know that they helped the Emperor create the Imperium. But that was with The Big E onside and a Legion of Space Marines behind them.
Coz I get the feeling that The Wolf Time will make the Heresy look like a kiddies picnic.

Hellebore
14-06-2005, 13:14
If you look at a map of the Galaxy the Eye is millions of light years in diameter and as you said time flows differently. Kahadras

The galaxy is actually *only* 100,000 lightyears across, so the eye can't be 1,000,000 LY unless you mean distortion etc.

As for the primarchs coming back, that will only ever happen if the company goes into liquidation ;)

I once wrote a short piece on each primarch coming back, how it would happen, and the reactions it would provoke.

Interestingly my concept for the return of Sanguinius was actually used in the new deus ex sanguine blood angel books. I thought the only way for him to return is to reincarnate through a blood angel aspirant- his entire life was coded to his genes to inflict misery on the blood angels when horus killed him, so all it takes is a genetically compatible applicant.

Guilliman walks out of his stasis field, russ shows up in orbit around fenris in a a big baroque space ship o' doom, jonson pops up through the floor into the rock's command deck, etc etc.

One of the only problems I had was with Dorn, because we have his hands, I thought maybe he could grow back from them (Fifth Element style) but that was a bit daft, so maybe he just lost them and shows up with big IMPERIAL FISTS, instead of meaty ones? :rolleyes:


hellebore

Long_Fang
15-06-2005, 00:34
I will give my 3 cents quickly.

1) It started because the Dark Angels and Space Wolves made an attack plan on a traitor legion. The Dark Angels betrayed the plan and got TONS of Space Wolves killed. This is because half of the Dark Angels were traitors. Their home planet, which is now blown up was being protected by Lion El Johnsons second in command. Who was a traitor. The Dark Angels ran back home and left the Space Wolves to die.
2) This is why the Dark Angels are so secretive to this day, due to their dark past.
3) Russ got stabbed in one of his hearts, not because he laughed, but becuase he said "Can;t you see our father is dieing, I won't let this fighting between brothers go on" then the Dark Angels stabs him....

Long_Fang
15-06-2005, 00:38
I always thought the Primarchs were not made to fight Chaos, they were created to expand the Imperium of man and serve humanity. Only when humans started heavily using warp travel (after the Primarchs) did Chaos manifest themselves.

This is second hand information, but I think is accurate.

Xisor
15-06-2005, 01:27
Hellebore: You're proposition for the Return of Sanguinius is essentially possible for any of the Primarchs.

For them to return however, I think it's partially akin to thinking that Lord Nelson, Alexander the Great, Robert the Bruce, Churchill etc to return. And if Sanguinius/Russ etc are to return, what is to stop Horus and the traitors that are dead from returning?

Take Vulkan of the Salamanders, all that is mentioned of him is that ~1000 years after the Heresy(or was it the founding of the salamanders?) he disappeared. Thats it. Maybe he went to die of old age. Maybe to find out what happened to his brothers? Maybe he set of to rescue Jaghatai Khan, maybe he heard from Russ, maybe he'd had enough?

I've not heard too many Armageddon theories on the return of the Primarchs though. Could anyone fill me in with sources I could look into?

Xisor

ntin
15-06-2005, 01:40
There is a poem about the Wulfen returning marks the coming of the Wolf. In the old Blood/Dark Angels 2nd codex it says the Lion is simply waiting for the time his sons needs him again.

Kahadras
15-06-2005, 01:44
I always thought the Primarchs were not made to fight Chaos,

Nope. Sorry but that is wrong. The Emperor knew of Chaos and created the Primarchs to help him in his fight against the four gods. The Chaos gods, however, discovered the Emperors plan and abducted the pods that the young primarchs were developing in and scattered them to the stars. This is why the Primarchs ended up on different planets. The Emperor then use the genetic material from the Primarchs (which he still had) to create the Space Marines. As the great crusade came across the worlds where the primarchs had landed they were reunited with the Emperor. It is possible that some pods cracked in the Warp leading to the corruption of some of the Primarchs which only became aparant during the Horus Heresy.

Kahadras

DantesInferno
15-06-2005, 03:23
Nope. Sorry but that is wrong. The Emperor knew of Chaos and created the Primarchs to help him in his fight against the four gods.

I think it is highly debatable to argue that fighting the Chaos Gods was a higher priority to the Emperor rather than creating a galactic Empire for mankind with himself at its head. Certainly the Primarchs did fight against Chaos, but I would argue that that was a result of Chaos being part of the opposition, rather than the primary purpose of the creation of the Primarchs.

The Emperor was probably aware of the existance of the Chaos Gods, but he certainly either didn't consider them the primary obstacle to expansion or underestimated them hugely. Why? Because the Grey Knight program was only started right at or after his death. If the Emperor had known the full dangers of Chaos corruption, he would not have been so quick to churn out thousands and thousands of genetically engineered troops with little or no indoctrination to keep them loyal.

charlie_c67
15-06-2005, 09:13
1) It started because the Dark Angels and Space Wolves made an attack plan on a traitor legion. The Dark Angels betrayed the plan and got TONS of Space Wolves killed. This is because half of the Dark Angels were traitors. Their home planet, which is now blown up was being protected by Lion El Johnsons second in command. Who was a traitor. The Dark Angels ran back home and left the Space Wolves to die.

Sorry but I have to take issue with this. The DA did NOT betray the plan, nor was it due to half of them being traitors. If you read the story carefully you'll see that what happened was a difference in combat idealogies and the feud started at a siege. Russ being the typical hot headed warrior he was wanted to ram his fist down the enemies throat and reacted to claims he was nothing more than a lap dog by the enemy commander whereas the Lion made careful plans which he was afraid Russ would ruin. When the battle actually happened, Russ was caught in the melee at the base of the walls but the lion managed to get on top of them and beheaded said commander. After the battle Russ went and picked a fight with the lion cos he thought his honour had been stolen from him and that's where it started.

The Traitor DA played no part at all the DA's movements till Jonsson and most of the chapter came back to Caliban after the heresy. It wasn't half the legion either, reason being you do not leave 5000 or however many troops garrisoning your home planet. More likely numbers are tens or hundreds.

Long_Fang
15-06-2005, 12:44
Fair. But I do remember that the seige cost the Space Wolves a lot of marines due to the Dark Angels. This is what got the whole thing started.

charlie_c67
15-06-2005, 12:52
No, it was cos Russ believed Jonsson had pinched the honour of slaying the enemy commander from under his nose. I'd give you the IA reference if I wasn't at work.

Lord Lucifer
15-06-2005, 13:05
I will give my 3 cents quickly.

1) It started because the Dark Angels and Space Wolves made an attack plan on a traitor legion. The Dark Angels betrayed the plan and got TONS of Space Wolves killed. This is because half of the Dark Angels were traitors. Their home planet, which is now blown up was being protected by Lion El Johnsons second in command. Who was a traitor. The Dark Angels ran back home and left the Space Wolves to die.
2) This is why the Dark Angels are so secretive to this day, due to their dark past.
3) Russ got stabbed in one of his hearts, not because he laughed, but becuase he said "Can;t you see our father is dieing, I won't let this fighting between brothers go on" then the Dark Angels stabs him....


First step is to realise nothing written in 3rd edition onwards should be considered fact. It is all subjective. Which is why we have so many irritating factional arguments, and why I'd really like GW to return to a 'Word of God' style with the inclusion of clearly marked subjective background to explain the thoughts, rather than that biased view being the 'core' presented.

Now, the Dark Angels under... Luthor? The name escapes me, but they weren't entirely 'traitor'.

Situation was the chap that found the young Johnson, became his greatest friend, closest companion and ally, and then his second in command.
He felt slighted when Johnson left on the Emperor's crusade and commanded him to stay and defend Caliban, rather than realising the honour in Johnson trusting him and needing him to protect their homeworld
During the course of the crusade, this discontent festered in Luthor (if the name is wrong, someone berate me and I'll change it later), and when Johnson and the remaining Dark Angels from his Crusade returned to Caliban, and were fired upon.
Titanic battle ripped at the heart of Caliban, it eventually destroyed Caliban, and Luthor struck Johnson almost fatally. Believing he had killed Johnson, Luthor realised what he'd done, and the realisation broke his spirit, and his mind. He's now locked up, and Johnson was taken by the Watchers in the Dark completely unbeknownst to anyone else.
He is currently in an millenia-long sleep in the heart of The Rock, the broken fragment (crowned with a vast Fortress Monastery) that is now all that remains of Caliban.

The Dark Angels are secretive and zealous because they have yet to forgive themselves for betraying their brothers, which caused the 'death' of their father, and the destruction of their homeworld.
They are secretive because they hunt The Fallen Angels, those who did not repent or fled rather than face retribution, and this dark period of their history must not be known.
It is only the inner circle of the Dark Angels that knows their terrible past


At the time of the battle between Russ and Johnson, none of the Dark Angels were 'fallen Angels'.
Likewise, those that were to turn on their brothers, never left Caliban.

The enmity between the Dark Angels and the Space Wolves has been blown way out of proportion. They don't particularly like each other, but that only manifests in contempt, rudeness, and the comemorative battle between the chosen champions whenever they must take part in the same campaign, which is never to the death to my knowledge.

Xhalax
15-06-2005, 13:18
Yeah...the whole Russ v Johnson thing is thrown out of propotion. And if memory serves, I'm sure the fluff says that in time they managed to get over their differences and became at the very least comrades, if not friends (to a certain extent).

charlie_c67
15-06-2005, 13:20
I'd say turning to chaos would quite easily be considered turning traitor right after the heresy wouldn't you?


Like Horus and the other traitors, Luther had been corrupted by the insidious lure of Chaos. His pride and hubris had been all the Dark Gods needed to make him theirs.

Lord Lucifer
15-06-2005, 13:35
The DAs hadn't fully embraced Chaos, even Luthor wasn't all the way there.
They were just well on the way and headed in the right direction ;)

charlie_c67
15-06-2005, 13:43
Erm you sure?


The Primarch faced his former brother and knew that he was lost to him, that the dark power had destroyed the honourable man he had once been. The Primarch was a living god amongst men, but Luther had been elevated by the Chaos powers to be his equal in almost every way.

Sounds almost like a mini versin of the big E against Horus when you read the whole lot, only difference is Luthor isn't polished off by Jonsson.

Apollyon
15-06-2005, 14:25
quick question ...Have you ever actually READ any of the fluff? :eyebrows:


I will give my 3 cents quickly.

1) It started because the Dark Angels and Space Wolves made an attack plan on a traitor legion. The Dark Angels betrayed the plan and got TONS of Space Wolves killed. This is because half of the Dark Angels were traitors. Their home planet, which is now blown up was being protected by Lion El Johnsons second in command. Who was a traitor. The Dark Angels ran back home and left the Space Wolves to die.
2) This is why the Dark Angels are so secretive to this day, due to their dark past.
3) Russ got stabbed in one of his hearts, not because he laughed, but becuase he said "Can;t you see our father is dieing, I won't let this fighting between brothers go on" then the Dark Angels stabs him....

Lord Lucifer
15-06-2005, 15:56
As I said, Luther was well on his way there, but his soul probably didn't wholly belong to Chaos, as evidenced by the fact that the man still had a conscience and, however slim, there's still a chance he'll be forgiven and atone fully for his crimes.
Many who wholly dedicated themselves to the dark gods don't have this freedom


The Dark Angels themselves I doubt really realised quite the danger they were in, and were possibly manipulated by Luther
But it's been a while since I've read Angels of Death, so my impression could be a little flawed on this account, but the Fallen Angels always struck me as different to standard traitor marines, more as victims of circumstance than anything else

Essia
16-06-2005, 08:35
Just for the record of those that did not read the old fluff, though I do not know if it is still relevant, basically:

1/ First Fight
With regards to the first fight between the lion and the wolf, the Arch Tyrant goaded Russ by calling him a lapdog and Russ decided to make a headlong assault on the enemy gate, that was bristling with defence weapons. Russ in his anger, ordered Johnson to stand down so the wolves can make the frontal assault and he can cut off the Tyrant’s head himself. This of course led to more Space Wolf casualties.

Before that happened Johnson scouted the whole citadel and discovered a weakness, which he planned to make a surgical attack to slay the Arch Tyrant and end the siege. The Warmaster Horus placed the Angels and the Wolves together exactly because of this rivalry between the Primarchs, they may not even co-ordinate their attacks and as Russ did not have authority to order another Primarch about. Johnson decided to show the Wolf up by beating Russ to the tyrant. He could have shared his recon information with Leman Russ and prevented casualties but Johnson choose not to.

2/ Round 2
Making their way back to Terra, the two Primarchs did not know how serious the situation in Terra was, Russ was probably correct to stop and engage enemies so they are not behind their fleet as they advanced, however on hindsight the battle would have been drastically different if the two arrived 2 days earlier. However they would not find the navigating artefact to speed up their travel….. it’s a tough call who was right, but overall I think Russ made a lot more difference with his headstrong decisions, and he was lucky as they turned out to be right.

charlie_c67
16-06-2005, 10:30
It could be argued that so did Horus at the end though. There was a flicker right at the end.

Is angels of death the one written by Gav?

Inquisitor Maul
16-06-2005, 11:04
It could be argued that so did Horus at the end though. There was a flicker right at the end.

Is angels of death the one written by Gav?

Actualy, it's called Angels of Darkness

Angels of Death is the 2:nd edition codex for the Dark Angel & Blood Angels (maybe some other but I can't remember)

Lion El Jason
16-06-2005, 11:31
Just for the record of those that did not read the old fluff, though I do not know if it is still relevant, basically:




You've inserted a lot of your own oppinions in there.

On Dulan when Russ ordered the DA to stand down the DA assault was all ready to go and Jonson simply proceeded. Russ also assaulted but ignored Jonson and was caught in front of the fortress and saw Lion kill Durath the warlord.

'El Jonson was the greatest strategist the imperium has ever known, he would not make a plan that involved the loss of loads of space wolves.

charlie_c67
16-06-2005, 11:57
Actualy, it's called Angels of Darkness

Angels of Death is the 2:nd edition codex for the Dark Angel & Blood Angels (maybe some other but I can't remember)


I did wonder but that's what Lucifer said he was reading.

Lord Lucifer
16-06-2005, 12:16
I was referring to the 2nd ed. Codex
Masterworks they were, well worth the price of admission

charlie_c67
16-06-2005, 12:34
Indeed. I have my ultras one still :)

Lion El Jason
16-06-2005, 12:41
I have a full set of 2nd ed books!..;)

In fact I have a full set of RT, 2nd, 3rd and 4th ed books! It really helps in fluff debates to have all 66 books to look through.

Xhalax
17-06-2005, 14:38
It most certainly does.
Though I go on the premise, it's not what you know, it's who you know to get my information!

Kahadras
17-06-2005, 15:17
'El Jonson was the greatest strategist the imperium has ever known

I'd have to disagree with that statement. I would say that Horus was probably the greater strategist as he was made Warmaster (basicaly he could order the other Primarchs around). Lord Solar Marcharius would also be up there as well.

Kahadras

Nazguire
18-06-2005, 07:20
I'd have to disagree with that statement. I would say that Horus was probably the greater strategist as he was made Warmaster (basicaly he could order the other Primarchs around). Lord Solar Marcharius would also be up there as well.

Kahadras



From a information point of view, every Primarch in their respective article is the greatest out there at strategy.

And yes, it would have to be Horus. If it wasn't Horus, then he wouldn't have been made the Warmaster. Most GW background also states this, so I don't understand why people debate it.

Kahadras
18-06-2005, 10:00
From a information point of view, every Primarch in their respective article is the greatest out there at strategy.

Hmmm not really. The article seems more to focus on one thing that the primarch was better at than the others. Russ was the best fighter, Robute was the best organiser, Dorn was the most loyal etc etc.

Kahadras

PBGhost
18-06-2005, 11:17
Russ was always viewed as the best fighter (if not the best tactical thinker) amoung the Emperor's primarchs. The best tactician probably falls to Lion. Roboute was the best organiser. Dorn was the most loyal and so on and so forth.

And Sanguinius was the prettiest Primarch at the ball. :p