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hummus
09-03-2013, 19:59
Just saw that its available for download on BLibrary
Any reviews for Sigilite?
Also any reviews for Path of the incubus?

shadowhawk2008
10-03-2013, 14:32
I'm 6 tracks through this and so far it's terribly unexciting. Malcador has had about a minute of screen time.

Nineswords
10-03-2013, 15:00
I've just bought it, and really hoping it delivers.

emperor0
10-03-2013, 16:00
I heard it,seems to be just filler and not good filler.

malika
10-03-2013, 16:12
It's a matter of taste I guess. Many people out there love their bolter-p0rn carnography in which Astartes kick major ass. I for one liked the bits of insights we've gotten on the Palace on Terra and extra bits about Malcador.

Major warning:
It has no Astartes in it

Nineswords
10-03-2013, 16:28
Just finished it. I'm in agreement with Malika, it's a matter of taste; the story reveals some more insights into Malcador's role in the Imperium, and hammers home the importance of what the Emperor is trying to do at this point in the heresy. There are several references to other HH books, and for me,

the scale of Magnus' actions in tearing the human webway open is not just what Malcador refers to as 'disappointing', but is in fact the single biggest catastrophe to happen to the Imperium through the actions of a single individual.

Personally, I quite enjoyed the tale, and feel smug in that I knew immediately what the objective of the soldier was the moment it was revealed to him.

AquaSulis
10-03-2013, 17:06
Are there any references to the II and XI th legions? I am referring to the cover art with Malcador seated in a chair with the numbers etched into the arms ...

Nineswords
10-03-2013, 17:11
There's a passing reference, but if I have any real criticism, I think the actual subject of the cover (not the execution) is quite misleading.

Nazguire
11-03-2013, 04:23
I thought it was great, personally. It was an insight into a character that is supposed to be extremely important to the Horus Heresy setting but has had bugger all screen time until now. Instead of just going for the 'extremely powerful psyker guy' routine that would have been easy to fall into, Wraight hammered home the desperation of an old man in doing what he sees as far more important than just defeating Horus militarily.

When Malcador explains that his personal mission is to preserve the 'soul' of humanity (artefacts created throughout the ages) to remind the Imperium what they fought for, and unveils the Rosetta Stone, everything falls into place as to what he is. He isn't the Emperor's sidekick, but someone who has his own agenda that happens to be in line with the Emperor's. He admires the Emperor for his 'indispensability', but argues with him over whether humanity will ever be 'mature' enough to be able to run itself without him.

In fact, Malcador has an almost dictatorial attitude to ruling humanity. He believes that, ideally, 12 people (a reference to the later High Lords of Terra) with enough knowledge and strong enough character, would be more than adequate to run the Imperium. He believes that knowledge is dangerous, and does not agree with the Emperor's mission to 'enlighten' mankind with knowledge.

The revelation that Malcador understands that 'mistakes' were made when dealing with the Primarchs is great. It enhances the grey areas of the Heresy. And his admission that if he could have saved even one Primarch is somewhat touching, as he chooses Lorgar. He infers, at least in my opinion, that Lorgar was gentle soul and if 'handled better' would never have turned traitor. He admits that the decision to basically humiliate Lorgar in front of his own Legion and in front of Guilliman was a mistake, and that he should have taken stock of Lorgar's fey personality and acted accordingly. There was no malice, after all in Lorgar's worship of the Emperor, merely misunderstanding, and trying to convince him through genocide, embarrassment etc was not the way it should have been dealt with (well...duh!)

Stonerhino
11-03-2013, 05:36
I feel it was background information for something that will be important in a later book.

malika
11-03-2013, 10:23
Another interesting bit on Malcador:
It's funny that Malcador openly talks about Gods to a soldier of the Imperium, somebody who is trained about the Imperial Truth which seems to denounce the whole existence of Gods. Two things surprised me here: the first that Malcador believes in Gods or at least that he acknowledges that these creatures are Gods; and secondly that the Imperial soldier wasn't shocked or offended when Malcador spoke of Gods.

shadowhawk2008
11-03-2013, 16:02
Done. Disappointing. Very disappointing. As someone else said, this is filler. Too much filler as far as I am concerned. Almost as bad an experience as Prospero Burns. Some nice thoughts from Malcador on a variety of things such as his role, the missing legions, the Emperor's shenanigans while Horus destroys the Imperium etc, but ultimately very disappointing.

Deepsix81
11-03-2013, 16:15
Another interesting bit on Malcador:
It's funny that Malcador openly talks about Gods to a soldier of the Imperium, somebody who is trained about the Imperial Truth which seems to denounce the whole existence of Gods. Two things surprised me here: the first that Malcador believes in Gods or at least that he acknowledges that these creatures are Gods; and secondly that the Imperial soldier wasn't shocked or offended when Malcador spoke of Gods.


Like Nineswords referenced, the cover art and subject matter are only very loosely related (if at all). That fact diminishes neither the art nor the audio drama by themselves, but is off-putting when combined.

I was thrown by Malcador's 'gods' reference as well. I guess because he has chosen to allow Hassan into his circle, he feels comfortable allowing Hassan to learn some of the truths that have been kept behind the curtain. It was definitely a 'WHOA' moment, though.

What are everyone's thoughts regarding the choice that Malcador refers to having to make a long time ago? Was he referring to his choice to ally himself with the Emperor rather than oppose him? Or the choice to keep most of humanity in the dark as to the entities that are all around them and now at those mammoth doors? Or the choice to become Terra's regent, and the caretaker to humanity's culture (which is apparently the job he considers most important)? Or are all three things kinda rolled into one 'take it or leave it' platter that the Emperor presented to him?

malika
11-03-2013, 18:37
It seems Malcador has been busy with "guarding humanity's cultural soul" for a long long time, most likely even before he encountered the Emperor. He seems to be part of an order that does this (who are they?) sort of stuff.

I don't think the choice he made revolves around that, not fully sure on what it is though. I have been pondering that perhaps Malcador already knew about his death? Meaning his choice was either to embrace it or avoid it. Food for though...

randian
11-03-2013, 22:33
the Emperor's shenanigans while Horus destroys the Imperium etc,
What is the emperor doing that could be described as a "shenanigan"? Do tell.

Scribe of Khorne
12-03-2013, 02:38
Sounds to me as if Malcador has been aware of the growing divide from the initial ideals of the Great Crusade and the period after the Emperor left it. It seems (based on these limited spoilers alone) that this is more in line with the arc of The Last Rememberancer and such. What exactly it is that is being lost.

Cryptic
15-03-2013, 10:35
That sounds such a let down to me. What is this reference of the lost legions?

malika
15-03-2013, 11:16
Nothing really. The cover is quite deceiving, but then again I think people try to look too much into things. As if GW would ever shed any light on those Legions...

The story itself is pretty cool, we get some more insights on Malcador and what he is, the philosophical debate on the future of the Imperium and some more sights of Terra.

If you're looking for a story with lots of action scenes and space marines in it, you'll be greatly disappointed though...

Cryptic
15-03-2013, 12:59
They should reveal the reasons behind the disposal or tragedies of the 2 other primarchs. Wasn't one of the pods cracked, hit by Horus in his rage when he was shown the truth of their creation? and shortly afterwards the pods were scattered by chaos? i know this is entirely off topic so apologies. One of the brothers was disposed off by Leman Russ? If we know that much thus far, we might be slowly revealed the truth bit by bit.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
15-03-2013, 15:09
If we know that much thus far, we might be slowly revealed the truth bit by bit.
We have no idea if the pod was actually cracked by Horus of if that was just a vision (I'm leaning towards the latter, myself). Generally there have been hints and rumours, nothing more. Apparently, the authors weren't supposed to suggest as much about the Lost Legions as they actually did, so it's exceedingly unlikely we will learn anything concrete about them.

malika
15-03-2013, 18:33
They should reveal the reasons behind the disposal or tragedies of the 2 other primarchs. Wasn't one of the pods cracked, hit by Horus in his rage when he was shown the truth of their creation? and shortly afterwards the pods were scattered by chaos? i know this is entirely off topic so apologies. One of the brothers was disposed off by Leman Russ? If we know that much thus far, we might be slowly revealed the truth bit by bit.

Don't know about that. The Lost Legions have always been kept a secret. I doubt GW would all of a sudden change this. Furthermore, I don't know a short audiobook story like Sigilite would have been the right place to do that.

As for the discussion on the fates of the Lost Legions, I can imagine there are several threads about it in the background section here.

Cryptic
18-03-2013, 09:11
Yeah i just want names mentioned. Their names. The reasons and a little more about the disposal method and battle brief. Maybe in another space wolf heresy novel ((not a standalone wolf novel)) where the wolf king notes some key facts but not revealing too much. Or a short story somewhere set before the heresy in a conversation between Fulgrim and Kurze?

malika
18-03-2013, 09:49
Russ' role as the Emperor's enforcer is kind of shown in Betrayer as well. But ok, we should really move this to the background section since it isn't really about the audiobook ;)

Cryptic
18-03-2013, 12:43
Ooh thanks i haven't read betrayer yet.

Do you find out whether Malcador is truly sided with the Emperor or had his own hopes for humanity aside from emps goals?

malika
18-03-2013, 21:17
Malcador does mention that he and the Emperor disagreed on some fundamental issues, and yes Malcador also has his own goals, but it's not really as if he has some secret agenda against the Emperor or anything...at least not according to this story...

Wyrmwood
19-03-2013, 11:37
Yeah i just want names mentioned. Their names. The reasons and a little more about the disposal method and battle brief. Maybe in another space wolf heresy novel ((not a standalone wolf novel)) where the wolf king notes some key facts but not revealing too much. Or a short story somewhere set before the heresy in a conversation between Fulgrim and Kurze?
Aww, you children and your music. :)

The 'Lost Legions' exist as placeholders for player created content and, I suppose, to add a little further mystery to the Great Crusade. It's been that way for about two decades. Anything that you read in a novel, is as valid as whatever you come up with.

Anakwanar
21-03-2013, 15:10
Not bad but very uninformative for some new peaces. And yes the skulls of the Lost legions - just for you to buy more copies; nothing more

Xisor
30-04-2013, 13:32
I feel it was background information for something that will be important in a later book.

Really? That's your feeling about it?

Not that what Malcador was talking about, from a variety of perspectives, was the very why should we even bother fighting? or how has it come to this? of the whole Heresy? I thought it was a deep, introspective and reflective peace that mused delicately on almost every aspect of the Heresy - every conceit about the content, objective, failure or victory of the Great Crusade, about any hope for humanity and SPOILER ALERT: the final outcome for the Emperor.

It's a commentary on the very course of the Heresy and yet, unlike all the other audios, it's not being prescriptive about what must happen or what might go wrong, but showing that already mistakes have been made, already so much has been lost. But even then - except for 'conquer the galaxy!' and the odd conversation from Magnus or Lorgar, how much of the Heresy has been spent examining why anyone wants to conquer the galaxy, why it's worth fighting for?

Well, Prospero Burns did a nice spin on this but, alas, that was lost on far too many people too.

Edit: I'd contend that the content of this story is background information (and emotion) that's fundamentally important to 23 earlier books and 27 later books as well as numberless shorts, novellas and audios. And then there's everything that happens afterwards in the next ten millennia. Every single nugget of 40k's landscape is, more or less, is informed in some manner by what's discussed in this audio.

---

Myself, it's easily the best of BL's audios. Throughout it I was deeply intrigued, not terribly surprised (I recognised the description of the Rosetta stone when the block was described), but absolutely in love with the thoughtfulness and motivations presented.

Folks think Perturabo got a bit more character in AE? He got nothing.

---

Regarding the methods to rule humanity.

I really don't think Malcador's referring to the High Lords of Terra. Malcador is recruiting people. We know, from HH:CV, that Malcador eventually presents eight Space Marines and four humans to the Emperor as his replacements, as his successors, as his 'twelve people of character to do what must be done'. The insinuation, of course, is those four become the Inquisition, those eight become the 'input' for the Grey Knights.

Regarding the four - the rulebook Inquisitor and its expansion The Thorians dwell at some length on the idea of the Inquisition's inner turmoil being more or less derived from 'how to rule the Imperium', the battle for the Emperor's soul. If Malcador wasn't in some manner talking about that sort of thing, I'm a chimpanzee.

---

I don't think I've come away from an audio story before feeling quite so desolate, so despairing. Some people like loaves and loaves of stale, barely distinguished bread. Some people like two slices and some filler in some sort of sandwich, I suppose.

Sqallum
30-04-2013, 14:51
Really? That's your feeling about it?

Not that what Malcador was talking about, from a variety of perspectives, was the very why should we even bother fighting? or how has it come to this? of the whole Heresy? I thought it was a deep, introspective and reflective peace that mused delicately on almost every aspect of the Heresy - every conceit about the content, objective, failure or victory of the Great Crusade, about any hope for humanity and SPOILER ALERT: the final outcome for the Emperor.

It's a commentary on the very course of the Heresy and yet, unlike all the other audios, it's not being prescriptive about what must happen or what might go wrong, but showing that already mistakes have been made, already so much has been lost. But even then - except for 'conquer the galaxy!' and the odd conversation from Magnus or Lorgar, how much of the Heresy has been spent examining why anyone wants to conquer the galaxy, why it's worth fighting for?

Well, Prospero Burns did a nice spin on this but, alas, that was lost on far too many people too.

Edit: I'd contend that the content of this story is background information (and emotion) that's fundamentally important to 23 earlier books and 27 later books as well as numberless shorts, novellas and audios. And then there's everything that happens afterwards in the next ten millennia. Every single nugget of 40k's landscape is, more or less, is informed in some manner by what's discussed in this audio.

---

Myself, it's easily the best of BL's audios. Throughout it I was deeply intrigued, not terribly surprised (I recognised the description of the Rosetta stone when the block was described), but absolutely in love with the thoughtfulness and motivations presented.

Folks think Perturabo got a bit more character in AE? He got nothing.

---

Regarding the methods to rule humanity.

I really don't think Malcador's referring to the High Lords of Terra. Malcador is recruiting people. We know, from HH:CV, that Malcador eventually presents eight Space Marines and four humans to the Emperor as his replacements, as his successors, as his 'twelve people of character to do what must be done'. The insinuation, of course, is those four become the Inquisition, those eight become the 'input' for the Grey Knights.

Regarding the four - the rulebook Inquisitor and its expansion The Thorians dwell at some length on the idea of the Inquisition's inner turmoil being more or less derived from 'how to rule the Imperium', the battle for the Emperor's soul. If Malcador wasn't in some manner talking about that sort of thing, I'm a chimpanzee.

---

I don't think I've come away from an audio story before feeling quite so desolate, so despairing. Some people like loaves and loaves of stale, barely distinguished bread. Some people like two slices and some filler in some sort of sandwich, I suppose.

I agree completely. I've never got why everyone moans about PB, without understanding one of the key themes behind the book.

Scribe of Khorne
30-04-2013, 21:12
Getting 'it' in regards to PB does nothing to salve the pain inflicted by the exaltation of the Wolves. ;)

I'll look into this one when it's released in a reading format however, sounds interesting like The Last Rememberancer?

Xisor
01-05-2013, 17:17
I'll look into this one when it's released in a reading format however, sounds interesting like The Last Rememberancer?

It's certainly in the same vein as being really quite interesting, much like TLR. Of course, not a whole pile of stuff happens - but then really, when does tons happen in a short story or audio? I think Sig is a lot less 'one note' than TLR. Whilst TLR was decent and enjoyable and a good insight, I do think that Sigillite takes that style a good bit further, all the while adding in a bit more depth and flourish in terms of weaving more than one strand of plot, as well as dealing with more and more exotic themes.

Given all this, I'd dearly like to see Chris Wraight get onto a Marine-lite Heresy novel. He's someone who plainly realises he's working in something richer than purely his own work (unlike whoever wrote Angel Exterminatus, who succeeded in referencing, more or less, only their own work...). This novel dovetails with French's work, with Sanders, with ADB, with Dan Abnett, with Jim Swallow and Gav Thorpe. It's threaded through, it fits in almost seamlessly, both 'in universe' as well as thematically and tonally.

It's a really lovely listen. Of all the audios (having listened to Sword of Truth, Grey Angel and Burden of Duty recently too, as well as all the older HH and a fair few of the 40k ones), I think this is one that can really preserve the bulk of its emotional impact on re-listens. Of course, the reveal of the Rosetta Stone would probably be lost, the actual twist is quite natural to the story. Even on rereading, I'd be surprised if that were a serious problem rather than cause for a wry smile.

Yeah, it was pretty damn decent.

MiyamatoMusashi
01-05-2013, 18:25
I don't really get the love for this. I thought it was OK. Decent. A bit slow, perhaps. Nothing to get particularly excited by.

Scribe of Khorne
01-05-2013, 19:08
Russ' role as the Emperor's enforcer is kind of shown in Betrayer as well. But ok, we should really move this to the background section since it isn't really about the audiobook ;)

Russ' own belief in that being his role was yes, but Angron actually proves its a crock, and Russ knew it!

Anyway...you've got me intrigued Xisor.

Stonerhino
01-05-2013, 21:06
Except that the Wolves proved definitely in Betrayer that if they had been sent to kill Angron they would have. Even Angron remarks how "I learned he was not allowed to kill me"~paraphrased.

Xisor
01-05-2013, 21:34
It's OK Stonerhino, don't worry about spoilers. :|

Scribe of Khorne
01-05-2013, 22:03
Except that the Wolves proved definitely in Betrayer that if they had been sent to kill Angron they would have. Even Angron remarks how "I learned he was not allowed to kill me"~paraphrased.



Completely pointless Stonerhino. Betrayer did not 'prove' Russ was the Emperor's Enforcer, only that he was self righteous enough to try and assume the role.

Xisor
01-05-2013, 23:59
Please note a certain tongue-in-cheekness here. Not that it's not my thoughts, but there's a thread of whimsy to it - I get that people disagree and that's perfectly fine. But in this I do think it's important - well, not that important, but given how integral some of it feels to a massive thing... well, I hope you get why (or at very least: that) I might be a bit exaggerated about it. ;)


I don't really get the love for this. Perhaps you are a robot and incapable of comprehending love? :chrome:

More properly, I somewhat find the reverse true: I find it difficult to understand how someone who's otherwise invested in the Heresy can be left cold by it and still have, in my mind, actually comprehended what's conveyed by it. To be spurious, perhaps you'd have to be in it for the characters in a soap-opera 'what happens next' kind of way? Or purely interested in the side of what actually happens, without whys or differentiation between the import of one moment and another?

---

A meaningful example, for contrast (and not in the indignant "no, you are!" style it might otherwise read!), it'd be meaningful to mark the landscape: what do you enjoy from the Heresy stories? What, if anything, in the audios was more than OK?

(Throne of Lies, for me, was the closest in terms of sheer emotional impact. And even then, it was the ending of the audio that really packed the punch - but that punch'd have been lost without much of the build up. Sure, it's not a Heresy story, but it's important to The Sigillite by absence if nothing else: Malcador doesn't give either of his two hoots to Night Haunter. No, it's Lorgar who's tugging his heartstrings, and Magnus who kindles his wrath for the second hoot. But Night Haunter, Mortarion, Perturabo, Angron? Nope, Lorgar.)

MiyamatoMusashi
02-05-2013, 07:29
I get what it's about. But for me a story has to have something interesting to it, in its own right, not just be good because it's about something.

The Star Wars prequels were about Darth Vader's origins. That's a pretty awesome topic. But they still kinda sucked as movies. Sigilite was on nothing like the same scale as SW I-III, like I say it was OK... but the fact it too was about a pretty awesome topic, likewise doesn't automatically make it awesome. In its own right, it was a bit slow, some of the reveals were rather obvious (and the ones that weren't didn't matter), and at the end of it I came away thinking "OK, so one thing happened, we got an interesting glimpse of something that was on-going, and a bunch of other stuff threatened to happen but didn't".

You loved what it was about? Fair enough. You loved the story itself? To each their own, but I thought it was pretty meh.

Stonerhino
02-05-2013, 08:01
Completely pointless Stonerhino. Betrayer did not 'prove' Russ was the Emperor's Enforcer, only that he was self righteous enough to try and assume the role.Lhorke's musing about whether or not Russ was given the title is the only part of the book that really suggest he was not given it. And even then it is an in universe point of view on why Lhorke does not believe it. If you line by line and examine each of the Primarchs he suggested had something Russ did not. You can scratch almost all off of the list.

Then when Angron faces Russ and basically says you can't do it. Russ proves, in an undebatable way that he in fact could execute Angron with the World Eaters there. Evidence of why the Wolves would be used instead of the World Eaters for such an action While Betrayer did not say "Russ = Executioner". It does demonstrate that they are capable of proforming such actions against Legions some people would argue should have had that title.

Scribe of Khorne
02-05-2013, 15:00
I have zero issue with them being capable, and to be honest I dont doubt most legions could have pulled off the same against the WE. The point of contention has been and in this thread again was that it was an official Emperor granted role that is 'confirmed' as granted to Russ, and Betrayer does no such thing.

MR.Tea
02-05-2013, 19:00
Not again with Russ vs. Angron...Pointless discusion...because clearly Angron won :D...

I finished the Sigilite, and apart from huge disappointment (the II and XI on the cover, and nothing in the book itself about that), I like how Sigilite looks at primarchs...all of them...he sees them as spoiled and "lost" children...Super powerul, but children, nevertheless...And how he reflects on Emperor...

Stonerhino
02-05-2013, 20:23
I have zero issue with them being capable, and to be honest I dont doubt most legions could have pulled off the same against the WE. The point of contention has been and in this thread again was that it was an official Emperor granted role that is 'confirmed' as granted to Russ, and Betrayer does no such thing.

Russ' own belief in that being his role was yes, but Angron actually proves its a crock, and Russ knew it!And he does not prove it wrong. We have World Eater's in universe point of view on why the Wolves would not be the best choice as executioners. Including themselves as one being more capable then the Wolves. Then being shown why the Wolves are better.You can't stand there and claim that Angron proved anything when its just oppinions that shown to wrong in the same book.

If anything the combination of sending (maybe only Russ' idea) the Wolves to confront the World Eaters, events on Prospero/Nikaea and the fact that the Sigilite sends the Wolves to watch several Primarchs with the plan to execute them should they turn. Shows that even if the title is not offical. The Wolves are used in this manners enough to validate their claim.Also you don't need a huge ceremony and announcing something to everyone for it to be offical. All it would take is for the Emperor to have told Russ something simular to what he said to Perturabo on Terra in Angel Exterminatus:

Angel Exterminatus=‘You will be my hammer, Perturabo,’ his father had said. ‘What our enemies build to keep us from our destiny, you must put asunder.’

‘You will be my executioner, Russ,’ his father had said. ‘Any who betray to keep us from our destiny, you must rip asunder.’Straight from the Emperor's mouth would be all Russ would need for it to be "Offical" and he would live up to what was said. Just as Perturabo did. He just would not be called on as much to perform his given task.

The idea of the Wolves being "Executioners" has been left wide open. The fact the The Sigilite doesn't go into any detail about the two missing Legions does not add to or take away from that idea. His [the Sigilite] use of the Wolves for that purpose during the Heresy however is more telling. Even more so with the insight into his personality and ideals.

Scribe of Khorne
02-05-2013, 22:22
Angron goaded Russ into attacking, but at the end of the day Russ the 'Execution' if we are to accept your story, wouldnt/couldnt pull the trigger. Why? What is your answer to that based on the actual text of the book? I know your already biased from the Background discussion on this but again, from the text itself what ACTUAL quote reinforces your position that Russ is the Emperor's 'Executioner'.


Again, I dont care about AE, the Sigilite, even Prospero Burns. You claim Betrayer reinforces the position of the Wolves as Executioner, when it does nothing of the sort and in fact counters it.


Angron spit on his 'oath' to the Emperor, right to Russ' face. This is IN TEXT. Russ didnt have the authority to pull the trigger, plain as day.


Continue to make up things to support your position, but there is nothing in text outside 'in character' references as you like to call them from Prospero Burns to suggest the Wolves are anything but just another Legion.

SpaceTiger
03-05-2013, 13:34
Angron goaded Russ into attacking, but at the end of the day Russ the 'Execution' if we are to accept your story, wouldnt/couldnt pull the trigger. Why? What is your answer to that based on the actual text of the book? I know your already biased from the Background discussion on this but again, from the text itself what ACTUAL quote reinforces your position that Russ is the Emperor's 'Executioner'.


Again, I dont care about AE, the Sigilite, even Prospero Burns. You claim Betrayer reinforces the position of the Wolves as Executioner, when it does nothing of the sort and in fact counters it.


Angron spit on his 'oath' to the Emperor, right to Russ' face. This is IN TEXT. Russ didnt have the authority to pull the trigger, plain as day.


Continue to make up things to support your position, but there is nothing in text outside 'in character' references as you like to call them from Prospero Burns to suggest the Wolves are anything but just another Legion.I have to go with Stonerhino on this. Your quotes really don't show anything other than Angron being Angron. As for the not having authority, it could simply be that Russ didn't have the authorization to wipe out the WE. It could be that he(Russ) needs authorization(orders to purge a Legion) before he goes on a Legion purge.

Scribe of Khorne
03-05-2013, 14:35
I have to go with Stonerhino on this. Your quotes really don't show anything other than Angron being Angron. As for the not having authority, it could simply be that Russ didn't have the authorization to wipe out the WE. It could be that he(Russ) needs authorization(orders to purge a Legion) before he goes on a Legion purge.

Could simply be, it could be that he...

I am glad you support Stonerhino, you both make logical jumps unsupported by Betrayer's text in the least. :]

SpaceTiger
03-05-2013, 14:46
Could simply be, it could be that he...

I am glad you support Stonerhino, you both make logical jumps unsupported by Betrayer's text in the least. :]I'm going by what he says cause it makes sense to me. Your spoilers don't really prove anything as far as I see.

Scribe of Khorne
03-05-2013, 15:47
I'm going by what he says cause it makes sense to me. Your spoilers don't really prove anything as far as I see.

I'm not the one claiming Betrayer supports the position of the Wolves as official 'Executioners' of the Emperor, I dont need to prove anything.

Stonerhino
03-05-2013, 19:10
You claim that Betrayer "Proves its a crock". And if anything it shows that despite the World Eater's ideas of why "It's a crock". The Wolves are capable of performing the very feat the World Eaters that don't believe they can't.

Why didn't Russ execute Angron when he had the chance. Angron said it him self:
‘You didn’t answer Russ’s question,’ he said. ‘Did you truly learn nothing from that fight?’
Angron blinked, the dull edge of surprise coming into his eyes. ‘What revelation should I have come to? I learned he wasn’t allowed to kill me.Angron said he was not allowed, not he could not kill him. Which means that he believes Russ and the Wolves could have killed him there. Which discredits every in universe oppinion of the World Eaters on why the Wolves are not "Executioners".But you are welcome to continue believing that the Wolves can't be Executioners because they didn't kill Angron. I mean it is far more conclusive then all of the evidence to the contrary.

Scribe of Khorne
03-05-2013, 20:03
This has NOTHING to do with ability, and everything to do with the 'title'. Your telling me NO OTHER LEGION could have pulled off what was done to get Angron in the position of being killed? Please, the Ultra's disprove it within the first several chapters.

I have zero issue with the Wolves being able to put Angron in a vulnerable position. This isnt even a pissing contest of who would beat who, as unlike the fanboys I dont feel any Primarch is heads and shoulders above any other, at anything.

This has to do with the claim put forward in Prospero Burns that the Wolves are the Executioners of the Legions. It is being discussed here because someone mentioned Betrayer reinforces that claim, and it does not. Can a Legion beat up another? CLEARLY. Does that make any one Legion the chosen 'Executioners'? Not in the least. The fact, FACT, reinforced by Betrayer, is that Russ COULD NOT OR WOULD NOT 'pull the trigger' on Angron, so CLEARLY Russ was not there as Executioner, he was there full of himself, underestimating the World Eaters, and especially the mindset and loyalty of Angron.

No text in Betrayer, 'proves' or reinforces the Wolves as Emperors declared, chosen, Executioners. Its as simple as that, so dont try and change it to 'well the wolves could have killed Angron'.

The Ultra's could have killed Lorgar AND Angron in the same battle, CLEARLY its the Ultra's who are the ultimate Legion. Right?

shadowhawk2008
03-05-2013, 20:28
Weird. I thought this thread was about The Sigillite?

Stonerhino
03-05-2013, 21:02
The fact, FACT, reinforced by Betrayer, is that Russ COULD NOT OR WOULD NOT 'pull the trigger' on Angron, so CLEARLY Russ was not there as Executioner, he was there full of himself, underestimating the World Eaters, and especially the mindset and loyalty of Angron.OR WAS NOT ALLOWED TO. So your whole idea of Angron proving "It was a crock" is wrong. Even in your won statement you agree:

so CLEARLY Russ was not there as Executioner What part of Betrayer says he was there as "Executioner". Since the book shows that the Wolves were capable of killing him and didn't. That eliminates your idea of "COULD NOT".


The Wolves could have executed Angron but did not. Therefore they are not "Executioners".Do I have that right because if that is your argument and you feel that it is proven by Betrayer. I don't think we have much to talk about.

Xisor
03-05-2013, 22:50
I get what it's about. But for me a story has to have something interesting to it, in its own right, not just be good because it's about something.

<snip>

You loved what it was about? Fair enough. You loved the story itself? To each their own, but I thought it was pretty meh.

In the same way that AE is 'about' resurrection/phoenix-like rebirth? I don't love it just because of it's topic. As I said, it packed emotional whammy, the manner in which the topic was actually broached and dealt with were appealing.

Simply having a character role up and fob of any old dialogue isn't, really, the same as dealing with a topic with any nuance or subtlety. Or, indeed, dealing with things that another author telling the same story might simply ignore.

By comparison, in my curmudgeonly moments I'd draw comparisons to the role of Malcador in Nemesis: he's prepared to fight in the manner that the Emperor isn't. Woop de do. That in itself is an interesting point but, in context of Nemesis, it's actually not where Jim managed to deliver real meat or impact in the story. The brutalisation of the assassins and the horror that both sides wreak on the civilian populace was much more brutal than the honour/necessity chitchat between the lords of assassins and as was reflected in Erebus/Horus' implicit actions..

I'd say the same, actually, with the roles in Deliverance Lost of Horus, Erebus, Fabius and so forth. Whilst I liked much of the Alpha Legion visions, and very much approved of the Corax/Emperor side of the story and what was dealt with there: the simple play of the Horus-involved scenes were just... words on a page, without much impact or nuance or value. Even then, it's not as if they weren't about something interesting, they just weren't very good. At least not compared to the better handled combinations of 'topic' and 'delivery'.

In that regard, The Sigillite is also about so many things, the insight and thoroughness in 'tying off loose ends of implication' was really quite impressive. The mentions of Lorgar, of Magnus were touching - if it were merely a recruitment story, would all that have got such prominence in the dialogue? Of course, in its barest bones, it remains a recruitment story, but there's so much more detail, more information, more to cherish and to understand about the why of it all.

Then again, I do adore short fiction perhaps more than I do novels. A short piece can bundle in a whole lot more and make bigger expectations of its reader (err, listener) where a novel typically stands much more solidly. I don't think I see the flaws (or lack of content) that others seem to with this piece.

In other news, comparing to the Star Wars prequels/Darth Vader origins isn't really very fair. Malcador was well acted! :p

(More properly: I also felt The Sigillite had some of the best... production values of all the BL audios. Certainly compared to the recently-listened-to Sword of Truth, which had some annoyingly quiet voices that made it a bit difficult to hear at points.)

Tl;dr - The Sigillite is right up my street. Certainly my cup of tea. (Etc.)

Scribe of Khorne
03-05-2013, 23:35
Stonerhino: You are still taking what you want, vs what is actually said/written. Its as simple as that. Until I see something where the Big E Himself declares Russ and the Wolves the ultimate marine killers, his holy executioners, all we have is Prospero Burns.

Betrayer does nothing but (rightly) make it ambiguous and confirms nothing of the sort.

Stonerhino
04-05-2013, 07:54
Betrayer does nothing but (rightly) make it ambiguous and confirms nothing of the sort.So we can can take that as you recanting:

Russ' own belief in that being his role was yes, but Angron actually proves its a crock, and Russ knew it!???

Scribe of Khorne
04-05-2013, 16:20
So we can can take that as you recanting:
???

Actually I read through it again, it simply does nothing to state the Wolves are executioners at all. If there is a quote I am missing please do share.

Brother Dimetrius
05-05-2013, 19:21
Seriously, is there any HH thread that does not devolve into this SW crap? >:(

Just listened to it. Loved the atmosphere, and the many things that are being conveyed without being said. To the poor bloke being recruited, it doesn't mean much. To the reader, the glimpses are very telling. I do wonder where they are going with this though.

Haskear
01-03-2014, 15:17
Just re listened to it and found myself intrigued by the start, who are the black ops style imperials attacking and what is the cool invisible lightning claw wielding psychopath super soldier thing