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Grndhog89
11-03-2013, 14:25
To preface this thread: I know there is not a lot about what resides beyond our galaxy or the space between our galaxy and the next one over. However, I am intrigued by what may lie at the fringes of our galaxy or in the "no man's land" in between. Is there any information on this? I'm expecting any citations to come from Rogue Trader, Black Crusade, or something of that sort.

Addendum: I KNOW Tyranids are arriving from another galaxy. So lets leave that out of the discussion. I'm really interested in what might be out there (both in a real world scientific setting and 40k).

baphomael
11-03-2013, 17:30
I seem to remember something about some space wolves getting stranded just beyond the galactic edge and finding a single random planet that was implied to be slaaneshi.

Crazy Ivan
11-03-2013, 20:35
I recall there used to be a background snippet abound an ancient space probe sent out from Earth, now on its way out of this galaxy, which is still sending back signals after thousands of years. To the dismay of the Tech priests listening in, almost all chatter the thing is sending back from the edges of the galaxy is Orkish. Can't remember where that's from, though.

Grndhog89
12-03-2013, 01:38
Interesting. I know this is a really narrow topic with little material, but I'm pretty sure the Rogue Trader RPG books have a snippet or two about galactic fringes.


Any takers?

Rufiodies
12-03-2013, 02:35
There's alot of mention in the ravenor and eisenhorn novels, of an area thats still roughly imperium, but with no real enforcement of the laws, on the edges of imperial space. There are also mentions of the Halo zone, where its said the astrononican doesn't reach, which is why most rogue traders don't head out there (or anyone else using warp travel). Dead planets, "ghosts" if you will. A strange area that drives most normal humans insane. Generally not a fun place to go, and 99.9999% of people who have, never returned.
There are also the Ghoul stars, and the terrible threat of "The Pale Wasting" which had "nightmare engines" which had to be put down by the Novamarines and 11 other chapters. records expunged by the inquisition...
There are specialized chapters of space marines that guard the regions at the edges of imperial space, the halo brethren? and the death specters? On the imperial edge, its really a place where rogue traders and others go to do dirt
On the far edge? no one knows... tyranids, and necrons, and orks oh my....

Felwether
12-03-2013, 02:42
I don't think that 'area outside Imperial space' is necessarily outside the galaxy. Don't forget that, while the Imperium is mind bogglingly vast there are huge areas of wilderness space within its borders that are unexplored.

I don't really know of any specific objects/phenomena outside of the galaxy but the current Necron Codex mentions the Silent King travelling beyond its borders after The War in Heaven and spotting the oncoming Hive Fleets.

Also, wasn't the C'tan known as the Outsider supposedly trapped in a Dyson Sphere beyond the borders of the galaxy?

EDIT: Sorry, disregard those first few lines - didn't read your post properly.

Grndhog89
12-03-2013, 04:26
Thanks for the answers so far guys. For the sake of clarification I'd like inferences made about whats on the border/fringes of our galaxy, not what is on the fringes/borders of the IoM. Also if there is any mention or hints about what is in the space in between galaxies that would be cool. I also don't mind any real world science on any of this. Astronomy is sort of like a hobby of mine. If only I were better at physics I'd actually try to be an astronomer......sigh. Lol.

As I've said before, I'm really waiting for someone with one of the 40k RPG books to step in here. I think those have a wealth of information on this topic if one were to peruse every page.

Still Standing
12-03-2013, 05:01
Not much in the void between galaxies. Some dust, a few rogue stars and planets cast off when galaxies collide. Likely there is scattered debris from ancient wars - ships with their engines still firing after millions of years adrift, that sort of thing.

Nazrax
12-03-2013, 07:51
Well if you are asking about what is between our Milky Way galaxy and the next nearest galaxy in real life: Nothing, absolutely freaking nothing. I cannot stress enough how totally, completely, utterly empty it is. You are talking about a region of such insane immensity that we are unable to comprehend it, literally. If you absolutely must know what if anything is out there, think of it this way...

Imagine an atom of hydrogen, now imagine that one single atom totally all by itself and nothing else for countless miles/kilometers. There may well be a tiny bit of dust or gas, perhaps even a star or parts of some lost solar system, but and that is a very big but(haha no pun intended) the mind-boggling distances are so inhumanely vast that it is completely and utterly meaningless. This was the answer I was given by a cosmologist years ago when I was in college.

The scale is unimaginable. It is empty in every possible sense of the word.



To be honest the enormity of intergalactic space is downright scary.

Rufiodies
12-03-2013, 09:03
Well I think the issue is the label, The edge of the galaxy and the edge of the IoM are in many ways the same thing. The IoM spans to the edges of the Astronomican, and there isn't much known as to what is going on beyond that. Without the guiding light of the Emperor, its next to impossible to explore space.

considering that the RPG books are kinda not GW, is the fluff considered canon?

El_Machinae
12-03-2013, 09:47
To be honest the enormity of intergalactic space is downright scary.

It is, but kind of not. The scale between galaxies is roughly the same scale of galaxies. I'll explain. We think of the Earth as 'big', but if we were to describe the Solar system using 'Earth radii' (6000 km) as units, the scale of the Solar system quickly uses large numbers. Jupiter is ~130,000 Earth radii from the Sun, I cannot imagine 'one hundred thousand' of something so it's the wrong 'convenient' unit to use. "5.2 AU" is a much more convenient scale. I can imagine 5 of something very easily.

AU is certainly the wrong unit to describe interstellar distances. On this front, we see how bogglingly big space is. The distance between the Sun and Alpha Centauri is 275,000 AU. Ugh, I cannot imagine that many AU, but I can imagine 5.2 of them!

So, planetary radii are not the right unit to imagine the distance between planets. Solar system radii (well of the inner planets) is not the right scale to imagine interstellar distance. The total size of the Milky Way is about 50,000 light-years in radius, though. We've got a lot of galaxies within 10-20 'galactic radii' of us.

I'm not disputing that it's a huge amount of space, but at the scale in which we visualize galaxies (as whole objects), they're actually quite tightly packed. Once you've got a ship that can cross a galaxy, your civilization is a sneeze-of-progress away from being able to travel to other galaxies. Uh, unless you need the Warp or concentrations of dark matter to travel (something within the galaxy)

NemoSD
12-03-2013, 13:10
We all know the space between Galaxies is filled with Reapers.

Loginis
12-03-2013, 18:57
In the Rouge Trader RPG book Navis Primer you can find some information abot this subject. It says that a member of House Mercartor tried to go to one of the dwarf galaxies, but there is no evidence that he succeeded.

Lord Damocles
12-03-2013, 19:02
I recall there used to be a background snippet abound an ancient space probe sent out from Earth, now on its way out of this galaxy, which is still sending back signals after thousands of years. To the dismay of the Tech priests listening in, almost all chatter the thing is sending back from the edges of the galaxy is Orkish. Can't remember where that's from, though.
Actual quote:
'Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, its mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped it would someday return to its place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter depsair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be that wherever they travel in space, there is a good chance that the Orks will have got there first or will be arriving soon!'
Codex: Orks (2nd ed.), pg.10



This might be of interest:

Necrons/C'tan:

'Galaxies had lived and died by their masters' [Nightbringer's] command.'
Nightbringer, pg.8 [Omnicient Narrator] (my emphasis)

'...he [Corteswain] claimed to have been taken to a world beyond this galaxy by a being of unimaginable power he called a god.'
Nightbringer, pg.202

'It [Void Dragon] had... been worshipped as a god in a thousand galaxies.'
Mechanicum, pg.353

'The galaxy will bleed the stench of death into the void, and it will attract the others of their kind [C'tan/Necrons].'
Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.21

''I have seen the doom of the universe.''
Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.62


Old Ones:

'The Old Ones' intergalactic network was breached and lost to them...'
Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), pg.26 [Omnicient Narrator] (my emphasis)


Khorne:

'The Avatar [of Khorne] feasted on the slaughter it had caused, sensing the oceans of blood yet to be shed through the gateway its sword, bloated with death, had torn in the world. Galaxies of billions upon billions of souls awaited harvest and feeding to the Blood God. There were realms where the time it had wasted here was but the blink of an eye, where there were slaughters that would perhaps one day assuage Khorne's hunger.'
Storm of Iron towards the end of Chapter 4 (my copy doesn't have page numbers)

'Awful knowledge flooded Uriel as he stared into the portal opened in the fabric of the universe. He saw galaxies of billions upon billions of souls harvested and fed to the Lord of Skulls, the Blood God.
'Emperor's mercy,' wept Uriel as he felt each of these deaths lodge like a splinter in his heart. New life and new purpose had once filled these galaxies, but now all was death, slaughtered to sate the hunger of the Blood God...'
Dead Sky Black Sun, towards the end of Chapter 20 (my copy doesn't have page numbers)



There was also, of course, 'extragalactic crab man' from Space Marine (the old novel), found aboard a Tyranid hive ship.

Harwammer
12-03-2013, 19:05
Actual quote:
'Millenia ago, a probe was sent out from Earth, its mission to voyage to the end of the galaxy. The scientists who built it hoped it would someday return to its place of origin after circumnavigating the galaxy. The probe still sends back faint signals after 14,000 years adrift, and hasn't yet begun its return voyage (and it's uncertain if it ever will). To the utter depsair of the Imperial Techpriests who still monitor the probe, amongst the incessant battery of incoming signals many are identified as Orkish. The depressing conclusion for mankind can only be that wherever they travel in space, there is a good chance that the Orks will have got there first or will be arriving soon!'
Codex: Orks (2nd ed.), pg.10



This might be of interest:




There was also, of course, 'extragalactic crab man' from Space Marine (the old novel), found aboard a Tyranid hive ship.

You know how Orks turn space/warp debris into roks and space hulks? Maybe they've just built one of those up around this meagre probe? :D

El_Machinae
12-03-2013, 19:10
Outside of the codex, those are all Graham McNeill ... I would guess, then, that he's expanding the scope of the hyperbole a bit too far if taken the least bit literally.

Fear Ghoul
12-03-2013, 19:29
Outside of the codex, those are all Graham McNeill ... I would guess, then, that he's expanding the scope of the hyperbole a bit too far if taken the least bit literally.

Why is it beyond the realm of imagination that some beings simply transcend mere galaxies? The Chaos Gods do for a start.

El_Machinae
12-03-2013, 19:40
Why is it beyond the realm of imagination that some beings simply transcend mere galaxies? The Chaos Gods do for a start.

I think that evidence for your statement is something the OP is interested in.

Polaria
12-03-2013, 20:07
I'm not disputing that it's a huge amount of space, but at the scale in which we visualize galaxies (as whole objects), they're actually quite tightly packed. Once you've got a ship that can cross a galaxy, your civilization is a sneeze-of-progress away from being able to travel to other galaxies. Uh, unless you need the Warp or concentrations of dark matter to travel (something within the galaxy)

I think the main hindrance of the 40K world lies in navigation and the available modes of interstellar transportation, lets see:

Imperium -> Has Warp capable ship but navigators usually refuse to travel even to the edges of our own galaxy since they can't see the Astronomicon there anymore
Eldar -> Limited to Webway
Dark Eldar -> Limited to Webway
Necrons -> Have "slow ships" that can go anywhere, but they are sloooooowww... other than that, limited to Webway
Tau -> Have Warp capable ships that don't need Astronomican, but which are way slooooowwww (and unlike Necrons they don't have unlimited amounts of time)
Chaos -> Have Warp capable ships and navigators crazy enough to go outside Astronomican (or let sorcerers navigate to begin with) but have little motivation to leave Galaxy since all their favorite enemies are here
Orks -> As pointed out, are outside the Galaxy already
Tyranids -> As pointed out, have been there, got the t-shirt, say it was a silly place and wanted to come here

NemoSD
12-03-2013, 21:24
Tyranids -> As pointed out, have been there, got the t-shirt, say it was a silly place and wanted to come here

You left out the part where they ate the T-shirt...

Grndhog89
12-03-2013, 21:58
Good discussions everyone, thanks for the contributions. Damocles, those quotes from the 3rd ed Cron codex remind me how much I miss the old fluff. =(

aim
13-03-2013, 20:17
Good discussions everyone, thanks for the contributions. Damocles, those quotes from the 3rd ed Cron codex remind me how much I miss the old fluff. =(

Here's a nice little tid-bit for you if you were after real science stuff too. Scientists have found something traveling at super-luminal (faster than light) speeds in Galaxy M82, which is not an energy jet from a black hole. And not just a little faster, over 4 times faster.

They don't know what it is, but they know what it isn't, and thats anything they've seen before. Its been around since 2009 so it doesn't look like its going anywhere soon either.

Grndhog89
13-03-2013, 21:39
I was under the impression nothing can go faster than the speed of light. You can however bend the curves of space so that you arrive at a point BEFORE light does.

Mag-El
13-03-2013, 21:48
Here's a nice little tid-bit for you if you were after real science stuff too. Scientists have found something traveling at super-luminal (faster than light) speeds in Galaxy M82, which is not an energy jet from a black hole. And not just a little faster, over 4 times faster.

They don't know what it is, but they know what it isn't, and thats anything they've seen before. Its been around since 2009 so it doesn't look like its going anywhere soon either.

Any source for that?

Harwammer
13-03-2013, 21:49
Any source for that?

http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/news/2010/M82mystery/

I think this might be something.

Mag-El
13-03-2013, 22:02
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/news/2010/M82mystery/

I think this might be something.

Thanks. Any updates since 2010 about it?

But for what I read of the link you gave they do not conclude that anything is travelling 4 times the speed of light as aim suggest as fact. They talk about apparent and not actual speed.

aim
13-03-2013, 22:18
Thanks. Any updates since 2010 about it?

But for what I read of the link you gave they do not conclude that anything is travelling 4 times the speed of light as aim suggest as fact. They talk about apparent and not actual speed.

I may see if I can hunt out the actual article that I read (it was a while ago), but the 'apparent speed' is pretty much all they can say at these sorts of distances (on account of not being there with a tape measure and a stop watch). It is possible that it could be some crazy weird illusion, but so far, they've not worked out how that could happen, all very interesting stuff. However in the article I read it did state that it was traveling almost perpendicular to us so that it could be determined that its not a phase shift illusion, and when that article was written, they had been observing / studying / theorising it doing this for over a year, after having actually witnessed its appearance.

And yes nothing is supposed to be able to travel faster than light acording to physics as we know it (barring some special circumstances and theoretical quantumn gravity equations). However, we are rapidly becoming aware that physics as we know it is very broken and some things we just can't explain with the current model. Also, bear in mind that at one time, the world was known to be flat ;)

Also, some obseved and measured events do happen at speeds which indicate super luminal speeds, for example the transfer of information between particles which have quantumn entanglement.

SomeRandomEvilGuy
14-03-2013, 02:32
Also, bear in mind that at one time, the world was known to be flat ;)
Argh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth) (bit of a pet peeve of mine). But yeah, I agree with your general point about physics (or rather how it is generally viewed today).

TheDungen
14-03-2013, 07:03
Nothing is faster than light would assume that Einstein was right and since he and schroedinger lost the argument on quantum entanglement its far from impossible.

the problem comes from the loretz factor that is 1/(1-(v2/c2)). where v is your velocity and c is the speed if light. as your speed approaches the speed of light (1-(v2/c2) becomes smaller and the entire expression approaches infinity. if v = c then (v2/c2) = 1 and 1-1=0 so we get 1/0, an impossibility.

But if there's some constant somewhere in the formula that we've just not seen because its been 1 the entire time? then i may all well collapse.
humanity has been doing mathematics for a very small fraction of the age of the universe and we've never left our solar system to make an great and absolute claims to knowing the nature of the universe is just going to end in disappointment when these theories are disproved.
I believe Doctor Hawkins have already proven there are certain places where these rules don't apply, "Not only does god play dice, he cheats" (as an answer to Einsteins "god does not play dice")

Grndhog89
14-03-2013, 12:40
Nobody take this the wrong way, but who here is legitimately typing this out from their own knowledge and who is doing copy/pasta?

Also, for the sake of the thread maintaining interest to those who are not hard science oriented (like myself) lets try to speak more in the vernacular. Sorry, I don't mean to police the thread but I'd like it to stay on track and legible to all. Not just those who are physics majors.

TheDungen
14-03-2013, 13:02
Sorry and you're not entirely wrong I did look up the formulas to make certain I remembered them right.

Grndhog89
14-03-2013, 13:07
No problem, I appreciate your honesty and contribution. I was just afraid of getting too deep into legitimate science talks. Kind of like how I refrain from going in depth about political or economic theory/arguments on here.

El_Machinae
14-03-2013, 14:07
Honestly, I'd like a more legit source on the FTL thing. If the evidence was believable (and not easily explained), it would be the source of a helluva lot of hoopla by now.

NemoSD
14-03-2013, 15:13
Honestly, I'd like a more legit source on the FTL thing. If the evidence was believable (and not easily explained), it would be the source of a helluva lot of hoopla by now.

Not really. Major discoveries happen all the time, but Lindsey Lohan dominates news outlets, meaning a lot of it goes unnoticed. For example, there are plans to test a the theoretical warp drive NASA scientists have devised. This is big news as it will open the galaxy up to us, but tell me, how many people have heard about it?

American media does not like science, it likes short sound bites to entertain the masses, they no longer care about actual news.

Crazy Ivan
14-03-2013, 19:00
Not really. Major discoveries happen all the time, but Lindsey Lohan dominates news outlets, meaning a lot of it goes unnoticed. For example, there are plans to test a the theoretical warp drive NASA scientists have devised. This is big news as it will open the galaxy up to us, but tell me, how many people have heard about it?

American media does not like science, it likes short sound bites to entertain the masses, they no longer care about actual news.
I don't want to sound like a five-year old, but... Cool! Got any links on that? Never heard about it, even though Lindsey Lohan coverage is pretty minimal here too.

El_Machinae
14-03-2013, 19:47
Not really. Major discoveries happen all the time, but Lindsey Lohan dominates news outlets, meaning a lot of it goes unnoticed. For example, there are plans to test a the theoretical warp drive NASA scientists have devised. This is big news as it will open the galaxy up to us, but tell me, how many people have heard about it?

American media does not like science, it likes short sound bites to entertain the masses, they no longer care about actual news.

Yes, really :). I'm not a consumer of the regular media, but I am an avid consumer of the scientific media (both popularized and professional versions). What I mean is that there'd be scientific hoopla, and would be easily noticed by those who pay attention to such things.

aim
14-03-2013, 20:30
Yes, really :). I'm not a consumer of the regular media, but I am an avid consumer of the scientific media (both popularized and professional versions). What I mean is that there'd be scientific hoopla, and would be easily noticed by those who pay attention to such things.

It was, hence me having known about it for some time. Unfortunately, there's not really going to be anything more concrete on it until, well, ever probably, or at least until they discover another one or two and figure out what they are. Plus, super luminal speeds have been witnessed a few times before in special circumstances, so its really not the huge huge deal that it would ave been a while back. Especially with the prevelance of string theory and quantumn theory and what not nowadays. Basically, pretty much everyone in the scientific community has accepted that we know bot all about anything at the moment and are still very much fumbling in the dark.

I also heard about the warp drive thing, very cool. Has it moved on at all? Last I heard they had run loads of computer simulations and were going to build a mini one to see if it would work and see if they could actually measure it happening on a small scale (and, I suspect, to see if anyone on the team dies from weird radiation poisoning, or if they blow a big hole out of the test ground or anything).

TheDungen
14-03-2013, 21:43
Warp drive? Are we talking wormholes or higher dimensions?

And science screwing up eith catastropic effects almost only happens in movies. Mostly when science screws up nothing happens at all.

aim
14-03-2013, 21:56
Warp drive? Are we talking wormholes or higher dimensions?

And science screwing up eith catastropic effects almost only happens in movies. Mostly when science screws up nothing happens at all.

Or alternatively, people get fed radioactive material and fire x-rays into peoples eyes to see what will happen. We just happen to have gotten a lot more cautious than then, hence the tiny tests in the middle of desserts haha.

And nope, full on, Star Trek style warping the fabric of space. I have no idea of the physics behind it and don't pretend to, but if NASA are moving forward with live physical tests, one would assume its pretty darn solid.

Calgar
14-03-2013, 22:02
Are there any hints as to why the Tyranids are invading the milky way?
Could it be that they've simply consumed the other galaxies and now they're after the untouched milky way or something's forcing them into ours?
The vast emptiness between galaxies could actually be a hinderense for the nids. Vast distance+no planets+no life=no feeding and the fleet dies out?

Just some thoughts...

Fal
14-03-2013, 22:04
How NASA might build its very first warp drive

http://io9.com/5963263/how-nasa-will-build-its-very-first-warp-drive

khirsath
14-03-2013, 22:48
While I enjoy the physics conversations they aren't related much to 40k and the topic of this thread. I recall that the book "Priests of Mars" takes place on the edge of the galaxy and revolves around the investigation of a strange stellar phenomenon called the Halo Scar.

And since I can't resist astrophysics:
Regarding the superluminal jet in M82, it is likely to be a subclass of microquasar akin to SS433. An eclipsing x-ray binary with a black hole for the primary. An analysis can be found here: Journal-ref: Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society: Letters, 2011, Volume 415, Issue 1, pp. L59-L63

Knarg
14-03-2013, 23:56
Are there any hints as to why the Tyranids are invading the milky way?
Could it be that they've simply consumed the other galaxies and now they're after the untouched milky way or something's forcing them into ours?
The vast emptiness between galaxies could actually be a hinderense for the nids. Vast distance+no planets+no life=no feeding and the fleet dies out?

Just some thoughts...

I've seen three theories floated around various official GW fluff pieces.

One is that our galaxy is simply next in line in a string of galaxies, to the point that they've possibly eaten everything else in the universe. Another possibility that the Astronomican is acting like a beacon, drawing them like moths to a flame. Third, something is chasing them and their super-predatory nature is due to something preying on THEM.

So take your pick. Any of them are suitably nightmarish for the 40k universe. :)

baphomael
15-03-2013, 00:16
Yea, pretty much the above. Why tge tyranids arrived in the galaxy isnt known. Basic assumption, given they are a galactic scale swarm of locusts, is that the milky way is just the next galaxy the nids have decided to chow down on. Whether they've been drawn here or pushed here or tge galaxy is just plain unlucky isnt clear.

Grndhog89
15-03-2013, 00:26
Anyone with a Rogue Trader RPG book.........? Tell me what it says if the party decides to foolishly venture into the galactic fringes? Descriptions of any worlds, hilarious endings, weirdo aliens, effects traveling way out there might have on the party/ship?

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2013, 02:14
Star Trek style warping the fabric of space.

Not how it works in the ST universe, actually.

And I'd be a fan of the Astronimicon acting as a beacon if it weren't for the fact that we know it can't be seen on the fringes of our own galaxy, hence there being areas that Navigators don't like to go.

Grndhog89
15-03-2013, 03:39
See, I'm trying to find out information about those areas the imperial navigators don't like to go to. Very narrow topic with not a whole lot of information, but I always like the fringe stuff.

Harwammer
15-03-2013, 11:24
I also heard about the warp drive thing, very cool. Has it moved on at all? Last I heard they had run loads of computer simulations and were going to build a mini one to see if it would work and see if they could actually measure it happening on a small scale (and, I suspect, to see if anyone on the team dies from weird radiation poisoning, or if they blow a big hole out of the test ground or anything).

Sounds like science may well be progressing at the pace that the 40k timescale predicts. We definitely have to start talking about 40k as the future of our galaxy and not the present of some fictional parallel universe :P

aim
15-03-2013, 12:28
Not how it works in the ST universe, actually.


True, sort of :/ Unfortunately, with it being a fictional universe, it kind of depends what series / episode you're watching. I know it has something to do with subspace layers and mesing with physics. But there are some episodes (one specifically that springs to mind is a TNG episode, where there's a diagram of the enterprise and space 'bending' beneath it in a wave shape while geordie talks) which imply it works by bending space.

/shrugs... I'm not a trekkie to be honest so I'm more than likely wrong / misremembering stuff.

angelismortis
15-03-2013, 13:23
You know how Orks turn space/warp debris into roks and space hulks? Maybe they've just built one of those up around this meagre probe? :D

Now I can't help but think about orks coming to Terra demanding to hear whale songs.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2013, 23:23
True, sort of :/ Unfortunately, with it being a fictional universe, it kind of depends what series / episode you're watching. I know it has something to do with subspace layers and mesing with physics. But there are some episodes (one specifically that springs to mind is a TNG episode, where there's a diagram of the enterprise and space 'bending' beneath it in a wave shape while geordie talks) which imply it works by bending space.

/shrugs... I'm not a trekkie to be honest so I'm more than likely wrong / misremembering stuff.

There's a lot more handwavium and SCIENCE!!! involved in it. It's something along the lines of inertia reduction as opposed to bending space. If anything, this is more like how the Planet Express ship in Futurama travels. That show's science tends to be rather closer to real science since it is written by science and math nerds (and also happens to be frelling excellent).

Lord-Caerolion
16-03-2013, 04:30
Argh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth) (bit of a pet peeve of mine). But yeah, I agree with your general point about physics (or rather how it is generally viewed today).

Yes, it's believed that by the Middle-Ages people knew the earth was a sphere, but he never once mentioned the Middle Ages, did he? He just said that at one time people thought the earth was flat, which if you check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth), you'll see that many cultures, in fact, did believe, such as the Early Egyptians, the Mesopotamians, pre-Socratic Greece, ancient India, and so on. So no, it's not entirely wrong that people thought the earth was flat. The article you linked to only talks about Middle Ages and Columbian times.

Regarding the Rogue Trader RPG though, they actually have no information regarding this. It's all 'set' within a region known as the Koronus Expanse, which doesn't have any of those crazy effects that are mentioned. Hopefully they'll do an expansion regarding that sort of thing some time.

Inquisitor Samos
16-03-2013, 05:04
As someone else with an interest in cosmology and theoretical physics, I recently noticed the part of this discussion on the "M82 mystery object" (blame Lothlanathorian for that :p ) and couldn't manage to stop myself adding the following:

"Apparent superluminal velocity/motion" is not the same thing as "superluminal velocity" i.e. something moving faster than the speed of light in a vacuum. Apparent superluminal motion is an artefact of an assumption during calculations that an observed object is not moving relative to the observer when in fact part of it actually is in motion toward the observer, often at relatively large fractions of the speed of light. This effect was predicted before it was ever actually seen, and has been noted in quasars, active galactic nuclei, radio-emitting X-ray binaries, and similar objects. Usually there is a considerable mass involved, and "relativistic jets" are being emitted: plasma jets moving at extremely high fractions (some over 99%) of the speed of light.

Nothing actually is moving faster than light in these cases - it just looks that way "on paper" due to the original calculation assumptions.

TheDungen
16-03-2013, 09:27
well things can move faster than light actually, relativity does not forbid that, only that somethign moves the same speed as light and since you need to accelerate through light speed to reach superluminal speeds its kind of semantics but if you could create an object that at the momet of creation was travelling faster than light it could never stop doing so. Kind of a mute point in the real world where creation of matter is basically impossible, but warhamemr 40k has the warp, if a daemon spawned in the material universe travelling faster than light he could move that speed or could never slow down below it. (the energy required to slow it down approaching either negative or positive infinity)

Still Standing
16-03-2013, 09:33
Creation of matter is impossible. However as energy and matter are interchangeable surely it's theoretically possible to convert from energy to matter (see Star Trek replicator), thus making it theoretically possible to create an object travelling at speeds greater than light.

Meriwether
16-03-2013, 12:49
Yes, it's believed that by the Middle-Ages people knew the earth was a sphere

Eratosthenes demonstrated that the earth was spherical, and even calculated its circumference, in around ~240 BC. Hardly the Middle Ages.

Also: changing energy into matter isn't theoretical. We do it on a daily basis at particle accelerators all around the world.

Also: It's very easy to make "something" go faster than the speed of light... Grab a laser pointer and twirl. At sufficient distance, the red dot at the end of the beam *will* be moving at faster than the speed of light.... But it doesn't violate relativity in any way.

El_Machinae
16-03-2013, 13:15
And I'd be a fan of the Astronimicon acting as a beacon if it weren't for the fact that we know it can't be seen on the fringes of our own galaxy, hence there being areas that Navigators don't like to go.
Well, human Navigators cannot discern it, but that doesn't mean that it's not discernible. By analogy, there're stellar bodies that I cannot see, but can be seen with a radio telescope

Hrw-Amen
16-03-2013, 16:50
It always strikes me as odd that we have ships from the Imperium travelling all around our galaxy and to the other side 100,000 light years and yet some of the dwarf galaxies orbiting us and some even currently colliding with us are not as far away as the other side of our galaxy, so why the Imperium is not for example in the Virgo Star Stream about 30,000 light years or parts of the tails of the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy that is currently being 'eaten' by the Milky Way. Although the actual body of the galaxy is on the opposite side of the Milky Way the 'Tails' pretty much surround us like halos and parts of these are much closer. There are of course many other star streams and dwarfs that are closer than the far edge of our own galaxy but nothing is ever said about the Imperium (Or anyone else for that matter.) going or coming from them?

TheDungen
16-03-2013, 22:39
Creation of matter is impossible. However as energy and matter are interchangeable surely it's theoretically possible to convert from energy to matter (see Star Trek replicator), thus making it theoretically possible to create an object travelling at speeds greater than light.

No its not you just have to create equal parts anti matter from vaccum. Read up on Hawkins radiation. And in 40k it may be even less impossible.

Meriwether
16-03-2013, 22:42
No its not you just have to create equal parts anti matter from vaccum. Read up on Hawkins radiation. And in 40k it may be even less impossible.

Not from vacuum, from high-energy massless particles such as gamma rays.

Lothlanathorian
17-03-2013, 05:21
Well, human Navigators cannot discern it, but that doesn't mean that it's not discernible. By analogy, there're stellar bodies that I cannot see, but can be seen with a radio telescope

This occurred to me after I posted.

And as for not going to galaxies that are super close/entwined with ours, if the designers didn't know about them when the game was created, well...

Bingo the Fun Monkey
17-03-2013, 08:21
I don't have much to contribute. I wonder, however, if the Chaos Gods hold any influence in other galaxies, or if the portion of the Warp that they occupy (which is apparently 100% to those of us here in the Milky Way) doesn't extend--spiritually, physically or conceptually--in a neighboring galaxy?

TheDungen
17-03-2013, 10:28
Well chaos is affected by realspace, for an example actions in real space cna cause storms in the warp, those are localised things so it makes sense that the entire chaos thing is just a extremely large warpstorm.


Not from vacuum, from high-energy massless particles such as gamma rays.

that's not what they teach us at this university but ok sure they may be simplifying or something.

oh this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle) is what i'm talking about.

El_Machinae
17-03-2013, 12:54
How NASA might build its very first warp drive

http://io9.com/5963263/how-nasa-will-build-its-very-first-warp-drive

See, we've got this on paper. But, what's actually needed for it to become an actual prototype? Society needs to be wealthier than it is now, and we need a critical mass of technological capacity and scientific expertise. We build both total wealth and technological capacity through the sum total of our education and where we invest our consumer dollars. Right now, we're turning oil into progress+luxuries. So, it's a question if we're building the progress quickly enough to see these advances when we'd like to see them.

Still Standing
17-03-2013, 13:18
If it takes 100 years to develop a working model, think about it a moment. In 100 years we could have a colony on Alpha Centauri!

Zenithfleet
17-03-2013, 13:33
About the Ork space probe thing: In the 2nd ed Ork Codex, the probe is clearly described as travelling to the end of the galaxy (and eventually coming back to Terra.) However, I'm pretty sure that in the 4th ed Codex it was changed to 'the end of the universe'. Which implies that Orks exist in other galaxies too.

Also, much of the Eastern Fringe is beyond the reach of the Astronomican.

Lord Solar Macharius made it out to the western halo zone, but turned back. There's some brief but spooky description of it in the flavour text story about his special character. See the 2nd ed Imperial Guard Codex, or the White Dwarf reprint of the story when his model was released in 3rd ed. It's probably turned up in later IG codexes too (I just don't have any).

El_Machinae
17-03-2013, 13:37
We could. Now, a lot of things need to progress correctly for us to be part of that. I kinda think it's possible (or, at least, eventual viable slower-than-light interstellar travel), but we need a critical mass of luck to get there. That said, we can trade 'effort' for 'luck' when it comes to progress and sustainability-of-progress.

Meriwether
17-03-2013, 14:28
that's not what they teach us at this university but ok sure they may be simplifying or something.

oh this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle) is what i'm talking about.

The problem with virtual particles that arise from quantum fluctuation -- that is to say, quantum foam -- is that it can't be harnessed without sufficient energy input to render the process useless. The same is also true of trying to make matter from energy in any other way... E = mc^2 in reverse does not mix well with dp*dx >= h-bar/2. In other words, *nature* creates matter from vacuum, but has to pay it back very quickly, and the more matter, the faster it has to be paid back.

The problem with this sidebar and FTL travel is that it still wouldn't yield FTL travel. It would yield light-speed travel, with delays at the beginning and end for construction and reconstruction. It might, however, allow for more practical extra-galactic travel because light doesn't age, and doesn't need to eat... It wouldn't happen any faster, but some of the practicalities would be nicer for the traveler.

A more promising fiction for FTL travel or FTL communication is the handwavium that all particles in the universe are entangled--which is one single quantum system and thus not subject to relativistic limitations--and that therefore manipulating any given bunch of particles influences all others, and faster than light. We don't have any evidence that this is true, but at this point we haven't ruled out that it isn't true.

Lord Damocles
17-03-2013, 15:11
About the Ork space probe thing: In the 2nd ed Ork Codex, the probe is clearly described as travelling to the end of the galaxy (and eventually coming back to Terra.) However, I'm pretty sure that in the 4th ed Codex it was changed to 'the end of the universe'. Which implies that Orks exist in other galaxies too.
The version in the 4th edition Codex: Orks (pg.18) still makes no mention of the probe leaving the Milky Way, though.

To conclude that because the probe's mission was (according to 4th ed.) to '...reach the utmost limit of the universe' it has necessarily travelled to another galaxy would be to read more into the text than is present.

TheDungen
17-03-2013, 16:56
The problem with virtual particles that arise from quantum fluctuation -- that is to say, quantum foam -- is that it can't be harnesses without sufficient energy input to render the process useless. The same is also true of trying to make matter from energy in any other way... E = mc^2 in reverse does not mix well with dp*dx >= h-bar/2. In other words, *nature* creates matter from vacuum, but has to pay it back very quickly, and the more matter, the faster it has to be paid back.

The problem with this sidebar and FTL travel is that it still wouldn't yield FTL travel. It would yield light-speed travel, with delays at the beginning and end for construction and reconstruction. It might, however, allow for more practical extra-galactic travel because light doesn't age, and doesn't need to eat... It wouldn't happen any faster, but some of the practicalities would be nicer for the traveler.

A more promising fiction for FTL travel or FTL communication is the handwavium that all particles in the universe are entangled--which is one single quantum system and thus not subject to relativistic limitations--and that therefore manipulating any given bunch of particles influences all others, and faster than light. We don't have any evidence that this is true, but at this point we haven't ruled out that it isn't true.

I never said it was useful for anything, zero point energy is pretty much useless since the systems last for such short amounts of time.

And quantum entanglement have been shown to be extremly likely by experiments, both schroedinger and einstein made experiments that should've proven it wasn't the case if it wasn't, of course proving anything is impossible in physics.

Meriwether
17-03-2013, 20:25
And quantum entanglement have been shown to be extremly likely by experiments, both schroedinger and einstein made experiments that should've proven it wasn't the case if it wasn't, of course proving anything is impossible in physics.

*sigh* Can you please do some research before making authoritative statements on the topic?

A. Quantum entanglement has been proven to exist in small, finite systems thus far. We know it's real for newly-created quantum systems. It's not "extremely likely", it's real -- but any notion of universe-wide entanglement is not even close to kind of verified, because nobody has even proposed a possible experiment that might hypothetically be able to demonstrate the existence or non-existence of the phenomenon. Not only have we not tested it, not only has nobody has even tried to test it, nobody has even proposed a possible method for being able to test it.

B.1. Einstein didn't make any experiments at all. He wasn't an experimentalist in the slightest, and indeed deliberately eschewed becoming an experimentalist because he wasn't interested in this or that aspect of radiation or whatever, he "want[ed] to know God's thoughts. The rest... are just details!"

B.2. Schroedinger did quite a few experiments in his earlier years, on a wide variety of topics (in keeping with the time, much of this had to do with radiation), but his last experiment--on the creation of coherent light--was performed in 1919, after which he switched to pure theoretical physics... Entanglement wasn't even proposed until the EPR paper in 1935 (wherein you are at least partially right: Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen's paper was an attempt to disprove aspects of QM, and shortly thereafter Schroedinger said, essentially, "not so fast, kiddos -- entanglement may be what quantum mechanics is all about!", and in doing so coined the term "entanglement".)

naughtyGod
17-03-2013, 21:59
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/news/2010/M82mystery/

I think this might be something.

i think nasa have opened a warpgate into m82

El_Machinae
18-03-2013, 09:51
light doesn't age
I blame Lee Smolin for this thought, but the expansion of the Universe is causing all photons (traveling large distances) to become red-shifted (in our conception of 'time'). And (again, blaming Smolin) this strikes me as being a type of 'aging'.

Meriwether
18-03-2013, 11:09
I blame Lee Smolin for this thought, but the expansion of the Universe is causing all photons (traveling large distances) to become red-shifted (in our conception of 'time'). And (again, blaming Smolin) this strikes me as being a type of 'aging'.

Oooh, good point! Light doesn't experience time, but it does red-shift as it experiences space... This could indeed be considered a type of aging--and could indeed cause issues when trying to remanufacture a person or thing from component photons!

Zenithfleet
18-03-2013, 11:51
The version in the 4th edition Codex: Orks (pg.18) still makes no mention of the probe leaving the Milky Way, though.

To conclude that because the probe's mission was (according to 4th ed.) to '...reach the utmost limit of the universe' it has necessarily travelled to another galaxy would be to read more into the text than is present.

Well, it could be taken to mean there are Orks in other galaxies--otherwise why bother to change the wording?

But then again, I suppose it could just have been changed for vague dramatic effect. In the same way that words like 'billions' are sometimes used interchangeably with 'millions' when the writer just wants to say 'really huge number'. (After all, 'galaxy' and 'universe' have an annoying tendency to be conflated in did-not-do-the-research sci-fi.)

TheDungen
18-03-2013, 14:33
*sigh* Can you please do some research before making authoritative statements on the topic?

A. Quantum entanglement has been proven to exist in small, finite systems thus far. We know it's real for newly-created quantum systems. It's not "extremely likely", it's real -- but any notion of universe-wide entanglement is not even close to kind of verified, because nobody has even proposed a possible experiment that might hypothetically be able to demonstrate the existence or non-existence of the phenomenon. Not only have we not tested it, not only has nobody has even tried to test it, nobody has even proposed a possible method for being able to test it.

B.1. Einstein didn't make any experiments at all. He wasn't an experimentalist in the slightest, and indeed deliberately eschewed becoming an experimentalist because he wasn't interested in this or that aspect of radiation or whatever, he "want[ed] to know God's thoughts. The rest... are just details!"

B.2. Schroedinger did quite a few experiments in his earlier years, on a wide variety of topics (in keeping with the time, much of this had to do with radiation), but his last experiment--on the creation of coherent light--was performed in 1919, after which he switched to pure theoretical physics... Entanglement wasn't even proposed until the EPR paper in 1935 (wherein you are at least partially right: Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen's paper was an attempt to disprove aspects of QM, and shortly thereafter Schroedinger said, essentially, "not so fast, kiddos -- entanglement may be what quantum mechanics is all about!", and in doing so coined the term "entanglement".)

They designed the parameters that if fulfilled would disprove quantum entanglement, no they did not do the experiment it wasn't possible to do at that time even if they had been inclined to do experiments. But the ways to disprove it that they suggested was tested at a late date, and the effect that they had predicted that would essentially disprove quantum entanglement were not present. A lot of very smart people have tried to disprove quantum physics and that they all have failed is a very strong estimate of how good the theory really is. In fact quantum mechanics is more supported by experiments than any other branch of physics before it.
I dont need to do research at a specific time this is what I do for a living, if I over simplify its because several people in this topic have said that we were becoming to technical. sure i can drop the names of those who did the experiments the names of the papers they published and the dates of the experiments but since this isn't actually a scientific discussion but one of fiction what would be the point?
The initial point about virtual particles was mainly intended as a joke. In my last real argument was the whole particles with mass could theoretically be faster than light if they always were. Which is true at least according to specific relativity (not my area I do quantum physics, actual useful stuff). The argument was meant to point out that we've got a far to narrow window of observation both relating to time and to space to make any near absolute claims relating to the nature of the universe. Mathematics and in extension physics is only a model to describe the universe around us to a certain degree of certainty.

Oh and if I got some of my terminology wrong sorry english isn't my native language.

Edit: Oh and by made i meant designed in the last post, as i said english isn't the language I learnt this in.

Meriwether
18-03-2013, 22:28
A lot of very smart people have tried to disprove quantum physics and that they all have failed is a very strong estimate of how good the theory really is. In fact quantum mechanics is more supported by experiments than any other branch of physics before it.

Preaching to the choir, man. My degree is in particle physics.


if I over simplify its because several people in this topic have said that we were becoming to technical.

My point had nothing to do with oversimplification, it had to do with stating things that were not true. I'm happy to chalk it up as an English error if you'd like.


In my last real argument was the whole particles with mass could theoretically be faster than light if they always were. Which is true at least according to specific relativity (not my area I do quantum physics, actual useful stuff).

No idea what you mean by massive particles being faster than light "if they always were". According to all modern theories, massive particles cannot travel at light speed, much less faster.

What do you do with quantum physics, if I may ask?


The argument was meant to point out that we've got a far to narrow window of observation both relating to time and to space to make any near absolute claims relating to the nature of the universe. Mathematics and in extension physics is only a model to describe the universe around us to a certain degree of certainty.

I agree with that, certainly. I don't see how it relates to the rest of what you said.

Haskear
18-03-2013, 22:31
I have a limited knowledge of physics but as we continue to develop our understanding of what is happening around us do we not continually rewrite the rules?

My belief is there is something going on beyond the galactic rim, possibly some ancient races or maybe the constructs the old ones used to leave the galaxy/ascend. Perhaps similar to Star Gate there are web way gates that link in to other galaxies

Haskear
18-03-2013, 22:39
Not really. Major discoveries happen all the time, but Lindsey Lohan dominates news outlets, meaning a lot of it goes unnoticed. For example, there are plans to test a the theoretical warp drive NASA scientists have devised. This is big news as it will open the galaxy up to us, but tell me, how many people have heard about it?

American media does not like science, it likes short sound bites to entertain the masses, they no longer care about actual news.

First there was religion, then came science now there is only celebrity!

Meriwether
18-03-2013, 23:06
I have a limited knowledge of physics but as we continue to develop our understanding of what is happening around us do we not continually rewrite the rules?

No, certainly not. We don't write the rules at all -- we struggle to understand them!

NemoSD
19-03-2013, 02:34
Well, it could be taken to mean there are Orks in other galaxies--otherwise why bother to change the wording?

But then again, I suppose it could just have been changed for vague dramatic effect. In the same way that words like 'billions' are sometimes used interchangeably with 'millions' when the writer just wants to say 'really huge number'. (After all, 'galaxy' and 'universe' have an annoying tendency to be conflated in did-not-do-the-research sci-fi.)

Reminds me of a social study I took part in. The average American has developed a concept of one million (and it is fairly accurate) and a slightly less accurate concept of billion. Ten years ago, the average American did not conceive a difference between million and billion in any conceptual way, they knew one was greater, but could not conceive a concept of that difference. Now today, a trillion is the magical inconceivable number. The proposed explanation is a sort of triangulation. Million used to be hard to separate from billion because both were so out of reach of the average user, but in 2012, members of the study would claim they have over a million pictures, pornographic images, and songs on their computer, or various other storage mediums, and there assessment would be accurate. Facebook as literally give people the ability to interact with a million people simulataniously via comments, Twitter has done the same. Combined with the rise of the concept of Trillion, another frame is given to the million and billion figures. The net result is a secure grasp of the concept of a million, and stronger concept of a billion, and absolutely no concept of a trillion. (The relationship of million to billion observed in 2002 is mirrored in the billion to trillion relationship now.)

El_Machinae
19-03-2013, 09:43
Oooh, good point! Light doesn't experience time, but it does red-shift as it experiences space... This could indeed be considered a type of aging--and could indeed cause issues when trying to remanufacture a person or thing from component photons!

Here's where my knowledge of quantum physics breaks down. If a photon is stretched/redshifted sufficiently, wouldn't it lose its quality as a photon? Its energy become indistinguishable from quantum foam?

Meriwether
19-03-2013, 11:21
Here's where my knowledge of quantum physics breaks down. If a photon is stretched/redshifted sufficiently, wouldn't it lose its quality as a photon? Its energy become indistinguishable from quantum foam?

It would just become a low-energy radio wave. It might become so low energy that human technology can't detect it, but that's about it, I think...

A more interesting question is, where does that energy go?

baphomael
21-03-2013, 03:56
Reminds me of a social study I took part in. The average American has developed a concept of one million (and it is fairly accurate) and a slightly less accurate concept of billion. Ten years ago, the average American did not conceive a difference between million and billion in any conceptual way, they knew one was greater, but could not conceive a concept of that difference. Now today, a trillion is the magical inconceivable number. The proposed explanation is a sort of triangulation. Million used to be hard to separate from billion because both were so out of reach of the average user, but in 2012, members of the study would claim they have over a million pictures, pornographic images, and songs on their computer, or various other storage mediums, and there assessment would be accurate. Facebook as literally give people the ability to interact with a million people simulataniously via comments, Twitter has done the same. Combined with the rise of the concept of Trillion, another frame is given to the million and billion figures. The net result is a secure grasp of the concept of a million, and stronger concept of a billion, and absolutely no concept of a trillion. (The relationship of million to billion observed in 2002 is mirrored in the billion to trillion relationship now.)

Interestingly, when the idea of roughly an imperium of a million worlds or a million marines was born in a pre social media, pre internet, age. I wonder what those numbers might look like if 40k was first published today.

I suppose it comes back to stalins old truism of one death being a tragedy and a million being a statistic. It's harder to grasp bigger numbers. We can put a face on one tragic victim, we can hear their story and feel the pain... as the numbers increase our empathy decreases as we grow increasingly distant from the ability to fully grasp it. If we cant, literally or figuratively 'put a face' on such big numbers they become conceptually meaningless to most people.

Whats worse? A million people dying or a billion? I dunno, a billion people probably, in a quantative way (without getting into more complex moral philosophy)... yet my emotive response to both is the same. They are both big numbers, and thats not good... but I cannot imagine that kind of suffering. O can understand an individuals suffering... but on that scale it becomes impossoble. For this reason charity appeals often use individual sob stories during disasters etc to establish an empathic connection... because millions dying in a drought is harder to grasp than the kid with a face and a name who needs help and support lest they die of thirst and leave a grieving and critical family.

El_Machinae
21-03-2013, 10:43
It would just become a low-energy radio wave. It might become so low energy that human technology can't detect it, but that's about it, I think...

A more interesting question is, where does that energy go?

There's no energy loss, it gets spread into new space!

So, it would retain its nature as a wave? A wave on the ocean also loses energy (amplitude) as it travels, and eventually (eventually!) it would become indistinguishable from Brownian motion. Isn't that analogous?

Meriwether
21-03-2013, 11:20
There's no energy loss, it gets spread into new space!

Well, it's not like the photon leaves an afterimage behind it, to linger in the new space. This isn't a wave train, it's a single blip of energy.

Perhaps light is dark energy? ;)


So, it would retain its nature as a wave? A wave on the ocean also loses energy (amplitude) as it travels, and eventually (eventually!) it would become indistinguishable from Brownian motion. Isn't that analogous?

It might be, but I don't think you can stretch a photon sufficiently far within a time frame relevant to this or just about any other discussion.

Luffwaffle
21-03-2013, 11:29
You left out the part where they ate the T-shirt...
Putting that in my sig.

El_Machinae
22-03-2013, 10:00
Well, it's not like the photon leaves an afterimage behind it, to linger in the new space. This isn't a wave train, it's a single blip of energy.

It kind of does. If you stretch a rubber band, the total mass stays the same. If you stretch a photon, the total energy remains the same.



It might be, but I don't think you can stretch a photon sufficiently far within a time frame relevant to this or just about any other discussion.

It take the long view! I'm an immortalist! :evilgrin:

Rogue Star
22-03-2013, 10:07
Uh, unless you need the Warp or concentrations of dark matter to travel (something within the galaxy)

Given GW (by which I mean, creator Rick Priestly) envisioned the Warp as a medium which connects 40K and dozens of other realities, I find it highly unlikely the warp just 'stops' and trails off at the limits of the Milky Way galaxy.


Are there any hints as to why the Tyranids are invading the milky way?

Given the worlds they've devoured? To eat it.

Although there is a very good theory they're being drawn to the Astronomicon, but it is unlikely they saw it from another galaxy (it's limit is what really holds back Imperial expansion), once they reached the edge of the Milkey Way, they proceeded to Tyran, a sparsely populated planet but had an astropath to communicate with the Imperium, the second planet in the same sector attacked was a relay station for astronomicon signals. You could say they just entered the system and ate everything in it by chance, but after this Inquisitor Kryptman found a drifting vessel between the core-systems and outbound Tyran, which would have contained astropaths and navigators, all of these send recognizable signals over extreme distances.

Likewise, despite drifting in the vast depths of space, one of the Eldar (a highly developed psychic race) craftworlds was attacked.

Perhaps the Tyranids are attempting to communicate with/ or retrieve the source of the psychic signals, thinking it to be another biological mutation of the hive which is lost or isolated. Or they may see it as an indication of a potential source of highly developed evolutionary materials.

The Tau interestingly, despite a few probing tendrils, have largely been ignored as the Hive Fleets press deeper into the Imperium.

Meriwether
22-03-2013, 11:18
It kind of does. If you stretch a rubber band, the total mass stays the same. If you stretch a photon, the total energy remains the same.

E = hf if you try to measure it. f is reduced. How, then, does the total energy (of the photon) remain the same?



It take the long view! I'm an immortalist! :evilgrin:

My point being that I think we'd have a big crunch or heat death before you'd see it, regardless of how long you lived.

baphomael
23-03-2013, 19:54
(it's limit is what really holds back Imperial expansion)

Another matter might be that there isnt really that much to expand into ;) macharius got to the edge of the galaxy and his advisors were like "dude, seriously, there's bugger all out there. By the time we reach something we'll all be dead".

El_Machinae
23-03-2013, 20:54
Yeah, you're right. Where the heck DOES the energy go?

Wait, no, it's lost to relative momentum differences. Same with normal redshifting

Sojourner
23-03-2013, 21:09
Reminds me of a social study I took part in. The average American has developed a concept of one million (and it is fairly accurate) and a slightly less accurate concept of billion. Ten years ago, the average American did not conceive a difference between million and billion in any conceptual way, they knew one was greater, but could not conceive a concept of that difference. Now today, a trillion is the magical inconceivable number. The proposed explanation is a sort of triangulation. Million used to be hard to separate from billion because both were so out of reach of the average user, but in 2012, members of the study would claim they have over a million pictures, pornographic images, and songs on their computer, or various other storage mediums, and there assessment would be accurate. Facebook as literally give people the ability to interact with a million people simulataniously via comments, Twitter has done the same. Combined with the rise of the concept of Trillion, another frame is given to the million and billion figures. The net result is a secure grasp of the concept of a million, and stronger concept of a billion, and absolutely no concept of a trillion. (The relationship of million to billion observed in 2002 is mirrored in the billion to trillion relationship now.)

That's a really interesting idea - for the singular reason that it sort of coincides with one of my own. During one of my musings I once contemplated whether one could consider the absolute number of 'things' a society is capable of dealing with to be a generalised factor across all human activity, which increases with technological development. Consider any individual you like from the Middle Ages; if a King had a million subjects, or a shepherd had a million sheep; a general a million soldiers, a merchant a million wagons, or any other million's-worth of anything - how on earth would you know? What practical means was there of counting or otherwise accounting for a million of anything? Even applied mathematics faces limitations, regardless of whether or not anyone in your feudal realm understands the principles to a sufficient degree, because you don't have the means to perform computation of enough sophistication. Today we routinely deal in practical units of trillions of things thanks to high-performance, economical digital computers; but our science considers numbers of 'things' vastly greater than that. Nevertheless, it is still incapable of modelling quark interactions in large nuclei, for example - because there is no practical means to do enough calculations at once.

Summary: The concept of a manageable number of things is a generalisable concept across all of society, and increases with technological development. There may be deep philsophical significance in this.

Meriwether
23-03-2013, 23:15
Yeah, you're right. Where the heck DOES the energy go?

Wait, no, it's lost to relative momentum differences. Same with normal redshifting

Yup. Essentially, the energy is lost to the zero-point vacuum energy of the newly-created space. I love physics. Especially weird physics. :D

Maverick
24-03-2013, 01:08
I posit my own theory which is as follows:
What if beyond the known galaxy, in another galaxy in an indeterminite direction there is another Imperium??!! Maybe human, maybe not. Maybe a mirror copy, maybe the total opposite or maybe completely different in every way. Another Imperium battling internal corruption and strife, challenged by Necrons and plagued by Orks and beset by Tyranids!
Maybe there are also warp rifts there from which spew hordes of daemonic outsiders. Maybe there are Eldar there which are completely different to our own.
The possibilities beg the attention of your imagination! :)

El_Machinae
24-03-2013, 13:16
Given GW (by which I mean, creator Rick Priestly) envisioned the Warp as a medium which connects 40K and dozens of other realities, I find it highly unlikely the warp just 'stops' and trails off at the limits of the Milky Way galaxy.


What do other realities have to do with the Warp extending (in a significant way) beyond the Galaxy?