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valle
12-03-2013, 17:41
Playing the new WoC for the first time today and my opponent is talking about how he can make his demon prince and warshrine 3+ with rerolls of 1īs. Meaning that he would only ever fail on 2īs... I really doubt GW would make something almost indestructable although the old chosens were close, but he must be missing something right?

Lord Inquisitor
12-03-2013, 17:44
Not exactly.

A daemon prince, unless I'm very much mistaken, can't actually have a ward save better than 5+ although he can re-roll 1s. (A 2+ ward against fire is the exception)

A Warshrine can have a 3+ ward still I believe, but no re-roll 1s.

A lord or a sorcerer lord can indeed have a 3+ ward save and re-roll 1s with the right items/gifts. But remember that you can't re-roll a re-roll. So if he rolls a 1, he re-rolls and if the re-roll is a 1 or a 2 that's a fail too. Yes, this guy is obscenely tough, especially with the 1+ armour he's sure to be toting. Very annoying. Pack an other trickster's shard and high strength attacks or try and tarpit him and hit the rest of his army.

Minsc
12-03-2013, 18:54
Pretty much what Lord Inquisitor said:

A Daemonprince comes with a 5+ ward by default, but since he only has a magic item allowance of 25 points, he can't get anything better than a 5+ either, with the exception of 2+ vs flaming attacks ofcourse.
Also, only Tzeentch-princes re-roll wardsave-rolls of 1.

A Warshrine does indeed have a 3+ wardsave if it has Mark of Tzeentch, but it has no way of re-rolling ones.

Chaos Lords and Chaos Sorcerer Lords however can obtain a 3+ warsave (easily with mark of tzeentch, abit trickier but still doable with the other marks), however only mark of tzeentch allows for the daemonic gift that let's you re-roll wardsave-rolls of 1.

RanaldLoec
12-03-2013, 18:55
only 25pts of magic items so no increased ward for the daemon prince

Lord Inquisitor
12-03-2013, 18:59
It's also important to note that the daemon prince of tzeentch has the daemon of tzeentch rule NOT the mark of tzeentch so no +1 Ward Save for him.

RejjeN
12-03-2013, 22:54
Also Also, the Daemon Prince doesn't get rolls on the Eye of the Gods table, so you can't improve it's Ward Save through that either.

It's still an unbreakable piece of OP ******** if your only artillery is flaming... (TK) But I guess you have to find the positives in everything >>

Minsc
12-03-2013, 23:06
Also Also, the Daemon Prince doesn't get rolls on the Eye of the Gods table, so you can't improve it's Ward Save through that either.

It's still an unbreakable piece of OP ******** if your only artillery is flaming... (TK) But I guess you have to find the positives in everything >>

It's hardly OP for it's cost.
One of your sphinxes should be able to lock it down pretty well in combat, assuming you manage to catch it that is. ;)

shakedown47
12-03-2013, 23:11
The only way a DP could get a 3+ ward is if it started life as a Tzeentch-marked character with ToPr or Armour of Destiny who rolled "Come On Up!" on the EotG table.

Knifeparty
12-03-2013, 23:16
One of the biggest mistakes people make with new books is not reading the rules properly and assuming that something can do what it could from a previous book.

valle
13-03-2013, 06:19
Thanks for the replies people, it should be settled then... Have to say that i am a bit confused as to why they would make anything nearly indestructable as they have with the lords. Not that the army was OP or anything, but those rules just put a bit of a downer on the entusiasm.

RejjeN
13-03-2013, 07:47
It's hardly OP for it's cost.
One of your sphinxes should be able to lock it down pretty well in combat, assuming you manage to catch it that is. ;)
And their in lies the problem doesn't it? You only manage to "catch" a flying model with an army that can't march if your opponent messes up badly or he puts his 1+ armoursave 5+ ward -1 to hit WS9 UNBREAKABLE character that heals himself right in front of your main combat unit. Whoops, guess they won't ever do anything this game!

Lord Solar Plexus
13-03-2013, 08:08
Thanks for the replies people, it should be settled then... Have to say that i am a bit confused as to why they would make anything nearly indestructable as they have with the lords. Not that the army was OP or anything, but those rules just put a bit of a downer on the entusiasm.

I'm sorry but Empire, Dwarf, Chaos and other characters have been excellent tankers for ages. Not quite this good perhaps but tough enough to reliably survive a world of hurt. Not everybody will even take this guy (I've yet to see a Pendant Lord), not everybody will field him exclusively in every list, and you can do the smart thing and concentrate on other stuff. It actually helps with the decision-making.

T10
13-03-2013, 09:40
... 3+ with rerolls of 1īs. Meaning that he would only ever fail on 2īs...

If you need a 3+ to succeed and have the ability to re-roll 1's, this is not the same as only ever failing on 2's. A roll of 2 is an out-right fail. A roll of 1 may be re-rolled, but then you will fail if you roll a 1 or 2 on the re-roll. This is because you are only allowed a single re-roll: The second roll stands.

-T10

Kalandros
13-03-2013, 10:26
Whats completely undercosted is the Nurgle -1 to hit rule.
That is what makes the Demon Prince completely OP - and having 125 pts worth of toys, compared to 75 pts of Random things for the DoC DP that not only costs more but can't get a 1+ armor save or 2+ vs fire.

Minsc
13-03-2013, 12:41
Whats completely undercosted is the Nurgle -1 to hit rule.
That is what makes the Demon Prince completely OP - and having 125 pts worth of toys, compared to 75 pts of Random things for the DoC DP that not only costs more but can't get a 1+ armor save or 2+ vs fire.

You forgot that the WoC-prince is straighout Unbreakable while the DoC-prince isn't. ;)

With that said, who takes a WoC-prince when you can take Greater Daemons?

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2013, 15:16
Thanks for the replies people, it should be settled then... Have to say that i am a bit confused as to why they would make anything nearly indestructable as they have with the lords. Not that the army was OP or anything, but those rules just put a bit of a downer on the entusiasm.

Yup. It's really quite odd. I thought 8th edition was moving away from stupid combos like this and then they not only allow the 3+ ward save tzeentch characters to persist but also give them a re-roll? Dumb game design.


You forgot that the WoC-prince is straighout Unbreakable while the DoC-prince isn't. ;)

With that said, who takes a WoC-prince when you can take Greater Daemons?
I thought for sure since the books were obviously being written together they might actually not make the WoC prince just flat out better than the DoC prince ... but no. Once again the WoC prince is just plain better. Why? It could have been unbreakable, 100 points of gifts, 25 points of magic items and it would be exactly analogous to the WoC prince and actually offer something to the daemons that the other Lords couldn't.

That or make the DoC daemon prince a hero option. But no, sadly my daemon princes will sit on the shelf for another whole edition.

snyggejygge
13-03-2013, 17:22
On the other hand, the book clearly says that mortal daemonprince is stronger due to the bonds with the mortals around it, so fluffwise it totaly works, besides WoC didn't get the best cannon in the game along with greater daemons, so stop complaining.