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Commissar Davis
13-03-2013, 00:00
Just a little what if, so don't read any further if you don't like what ifs.

Consider that that GW goes a little WHF with 40K, and allow players to field an all Grot list. This would include things like Grot flyers and tanks, they already have kanz.

Would you use it?

SimaoSegunda
13-03-2013, 00:08
There are also already Grot Tanks through FW.

Yeah, I'd use it. But then, I already play OnG, sometimes with an all-NG list.

JWhex
13-03-2013, 00:15
No, way too many models to bother with. At least in whfb you have movement trays so you can move 50-75 models around in one go.

Azzy
13-03-2013, 01:12
Heh, I bought up a bunch of the old 2e plastic grots for dirt cheap years ago, and have enough to field 6 full grot mobs and 3 maxed-out units of big guns. Add in Big Mek with a SAG, I'm ready to rock. :)

While a Grot HQ would be neat, I don't actually see it happening.

Lothlanathorian
13-03-2013, 01:29
A rebel grot list would be awesome. Someone on here, someone has a plog for a counts-as force...*searches*



*finds*
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?222217-Bringing-Back-The-Rebellion-Grot-Army-Rebuild!&highlight=rebel+grotz

And he started a new thread back in Feb found here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?367091-DA-GROT-REBELZ-Fully-Converted-Guard-amp-Ork-Army-Project

Brilliant stuff in there.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-03-2013, 01:39
Da Red Gobbo approves this thread !

childsoldier
13-03-2013, 02:10
I hope with all my heart that this is true. My mate has been (very) slowly putting a Greenskin force together and he 1.) loves Grots and 2.) is an excellent modeller and painter, I'd love to see what he'd do with this! If they're doing a Grotcopter then hopefully we'll see Deffkoptas get a boxed release too, they've had awesome models for a good while now but only in AoBR, which is fairly annoying.

If Gretchin-only lists become possible they'll have the HQ choice mentioned, plus the two FA choices there (assuming the chopper and bikers are FA), Gretchin mobs as Troops and various dakka in HS (are Kans in here too?), so that leaves Elites with nothing yet. Wonder what on earth would a Grot Elites choice look like... Of course they could always say Gretchin don't do elite and give them an alternate FOC with more Troops choices!

Aluinn
13-03-2013, 04:11
No, way too many models to bother with. At least in whfb you have movement trays so you can move 50-75 models around in one go.

There are some rumors in the rumors forum about Grots taking a more prominent place in the army, and we may see possible changes to Grots (S/T 3 like their WHFB counterparts for example, which is suggested by the rumor that the HQ Grot will have "Ork stats", and/or improvements to the Grot blaster such as making it at least as good as the mighty shotgun :)) that would take them to the 4-5 point range.

A Grot Elite unit with Infiltrate and Stealth (snipers maybe?) would also be logical, given that they're known for sneakiness. Another possibility is that they'll all have Infiltrate (hey, it happened to Nurglings :).)

T3 models can function in units of 20 without just melting away to shooting--they just need Ld rules that stop them from running off. Add to this that there are actually quite a few Grot or Grot-themable support options already in the book, on top of what may be added, and the Grot army wouldn't necessarily need to spam any more infantry than IG.

(For reference: Looted tanks can be modeled as crewed by Grots, with BS2 explained by the shoddy nature of the machine; Killa Kanz are explicitly crewed by Grots; the Dakkajet can effectively have BS3 and be modeled with a Grot pilot; the much-neglected-but-actually-quite-good Big Gunz remain with kannons being a solid choice under new Artillery unit rules, which make them really tough given the number of crew they can have, and I think a unit of lobbas has potential even if it is niche-y, being a kind of rough Whirlwind-equivalent with 3.)

This is of course not to mention the FW options which include both small and large Grot tanks.

Commissar Davis
13-03-2013, 12:03
A rebel grot list would be awesome. Someone on here, someone has a plog for a counts-as force...*searches*



*finds*
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?222217-Bringing-Back-The-Rebellion-Grot-Army-Rebuild!&highlight=rebel+grotz

And he started a new thread back in Feb found here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?367091-DA-GROT-REBELZ-Fully-Converted-Guard-amp-Ork-Army-Project

Brilliant stuff in there.

That stuff made me laugh, I would love to play against that or see it on the table top!

DeathGlam
13-03-2013, 12:17
Anything that involves Grots is a big yes for me, an old mate of mine had a heavily converted all grot army that we made rules for, so he could play in the local group, it was awesome.

totgeboren
13-03-2013, 12:20
I hope with all my heart that this is true.

This isn't a rumour, it was just Commissar Davis voicing an idea.

There are some cool Grot-only armies out there, using count-as, but I personally think they are a bit odd. Grots are not really brave, and don't make good leaders, even for other grots (except maybe the Red Gobbo, but their cause was that they wanted to go into space too, and not be left behind on Angelis (if I remember correctly).
There is also the problem of technology, as Mekboys use Grots for lots of stuff, giving us access to 'Grot tech'. But it's really 'Mekboy tech' which happens to be operated by Grots.

An all-grot army shouldn't really have things like Killakanz or Zzapguns, as they definitely require a Mekboy to keep them going.

I dunno, I love Grots, and try to include at least 2 big mobs of the little buggers every time I use my greenskins. But 'all-grot' armies makes little sense within the current background (which can change of course. Maybe they could change the background so we get real 'Mekgrots', Weirdgrots and Grot Doks, and not just riggers and assistants? All lead by a mighty Grot warlord!)

EDIT: I just saw that there was in fact a rumour over at BOLS of a possible all-grot alternative in the next Ork codex... ^^

Oots
14-03-2013, 10:25
I realise grotz have their fans but an all-grot army sounds a bit too much like a novelty item. And yeah, as the fluff currently stands, grotz don't really operate independently enough to be an army in their own right. Ok you might get the odd band of lost raiders and scavengers, but not a force that wants to take on serious enemy combatants. And being hangers-on and servants to the orks is built right into their nature.

Commissar Davis
14-03-2013, 12:29
On the nature of Grots, how many here actually field a few hundred tactical marines in a normal game? Last I look the FoC let you take 60 max.

With what is seen on the table top being just a small part of a much bigger battle, or a patrol, not a full army.

Lars Porsenna
15-03-2013, 04:25
I would LOVE to see an all-grot army! That would definitely get me to collect a greenskin army! I have doubts it will ever happen, but I'd love to see it!

Damon.

Aluinn
15-03-2013, 05:16
I realise grotz have their fans but an all-grot army sounds a bit too much like a novelty item. And yeah, as the fluff currently stands, grotz don't really operate independently enough to be an army in their own right. Ok you might get the odd band of lost raiders and scavengers, but not a force that wants to take on serious enemy combatants. And being hangers-on and servants to the orks is built right into their nature.

Clearly you're not familiar with the Grot Revolutionary Committee :). Rebel Grots have been a thing since at least Gorkamorka, and IIRC you could have a Grot army in Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed (though I don't remember actually seeing any in 2nd Ed., so I may be misremembering there--then again it could have been a lack of model variety and/or competitiveness).

Grots are entirely capable of operating on their own; they aren't Snots. In fact, they're more clever and, on a certain level, independently capable than Orks (who can't manage their affairs fully without the various Oddboyz, Squigs, Snots, and ... Grots), and some of them realize this. Finally, it isn't exactly in their nature to be willingly subservient and they do resent getting kicked around to varying degrees; they're just cowardly and Orks are larger. All this means that although most Grots tag along with Orks, they occasionally get political and have revolutions. Presumably they then kill the Ork Yoofs as soon as they emerge from their spore pods but let Squigs and Snots survive, or wander around so much that they don't live in an "Orkology".

As for rebel Grots getting into fights, it would probably mostly be a case of them being attacked rather than doing the attacking. Their goals are to establish a utopian, egalitarian society under the dictatorship of the Gretchintariat, and they'd probably get along with Tau (though given how many Grots there are, some surely must become pirates ... and they do love stealing).

Technologically speaking, though they don't of course have Meks or Doks or the equivalent, they're more capable of learning to do that stuff the 'umie way than Orks, but then their lack of savantitude and tendency to do the minimum that meets immediate expediency leads to slightly inferior results. We do however know that they can at least build tanks of a sort and are responsible for the invention of a few heavy weapons, so they're not that far behind.

And finally combat doesn't rely on heavy materiel all the time. They're naturally suited to guerilla warfare being small, sneaky, and averse to fighting in the open (which is why Orks have to prod them forward to do this in the current codex).

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-03-2013, 17:13
and IIRC you could have a Grot army in Rogue Trader and 2nd Ed (though I don't remember actually seeing any in 2nd Ed., so I may be misremembering there--then again it could have been a lack of model variety and/or competitiveness).

Depending on how technical you want to be you couldn't field any Grots at all in 2nd (and I presume RT), but you could field Gretchins. And in theory you could field an all Gretchin army in 2nd. Of course if you wanted to keep it all Gretchin it would just consists of hordes of 5 point Gretchins with either Autoguns, Auto-pistols or Blunderbusses. While the weapons was crewed by Gretchins they required you to bring at least one mechanics and one runtherder. So yeah, technically possible, but dreadfully boring and utterly incompetent (to the point where it likely wouldn't actually be a game).

Aluinn
15-03-2013, 20:55
Depending on how technical you want to be you couldn't field any Grots at all in 2nd (and I presume RT), but you could field Gretchins. And in theory you could field an all Gretchin army in 2nd. Of course if you wanted to keep it all Gretchin it would just consists of hordes of 5 point Gretchins with either Autoguns, Auto-pistols or Blunderbusses. While the weapons was crewed by Gretchins they required you to bring at least one mechanics and one runtherder. So yeah, technically possible, but dreadfully boring and utterly incompetent (to the point where it likely wouldn't actually be a game).

Eh, Gretchin=Grot. I know they weren't widely referred to as Grots until Gorkamorka but that's the Orkish (and thus Grottish) word for them, whereas Gretchin is the "technical" or Imperial word.

As for the possibility in 2nd, well, it's pretty irrelevant re. whether it would be a functional army or not. My point was mainly that there existed, in theory, independent Grots in the past (and 2nd was only one example; in Gorkamorka they were a full faction/"army") ... and for what it's worth, "regular" Grot infantry today would kill for autoguns and blunderbusses :).

TheBearminator
15-03-2013, 21:27
I actually played a 400 points game of 4th edition against necrons with a greenskin force made up from 2x30 gretchins, two slavers with power klaws, and a few buggies (probably something more but I can't remember). It was actually a really fun game and my gretchins made some really amazing leadership rolls. I think they won me the game in the end.

But to answer your question, I would love the idea. But without movement trays i think it's rather hopeless. Would take to long, my friends would get tired of me and go home in turn two.

But then again. If you could buy them some really expensive upgrades it might actually work. Cybgrot body and S4 power klaws. And of course some cool special weapons. Would love to play that!

Gorbad Ironclaw
17-03-2013, 04:46
Huh, Grot does indeed appear in the word list at the end, although I think that's the only place in the entire codex. Not even the stories from an Ork POV use the term. Gorkamorka was I think the first time it saw actual use and also the first time they were noted as being something in their own. I'd say that's the actual start of Grots and notions of independence and individual identity desperate from Orks.

And being able to field one unit doesn't really make an army, even if you could spam 4-600 in a standard game. A bit similar to now. And yes, they somehow manages to be worse these days than back then! Although you won't get things like virus grenades/outbreak or Warp Spiders instantly annihilating them, or psychology to make them run off the table.