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View Full Version : Exalted flamer chariot of Tzeentch - is this the worst unit in the game?



Cheeslord
14-03-2013, 12:58
Just a thought from the new Daemons codex (echoing something brought up on the tactics thread)...

The exalted flamer chariot of Tzeentch has Av10 all round, 3 hull points and is a fast skimmer. No problem there, it trades speed for durability and can get a decent Jink save I think while moving, plus its Daemon save, but definitely can be described as a Glass Cannon.

Its passenger can fire one of 2 weapons, pink or green fires of Tzeentch. Neither are particularly long range but are fairly good (an 18" AP2 blast or a Torrent AP3 flamer, Torrent giving it something like 20" range (12" plus length of the flame template). Both have uses in the right situation slaughtering bunched up medium/heavy infantry (the flamer is even good vs. hordes)).

It can't move and fire. It can't fire if it deepstrikes. This is because all its weapons are heavy, fired by a (non relentless) passenger and are not eligible for snap fire due to being templates/blasts.

this last point is what seems to make it pretty useless. It needs either to wait for the enemy to come to it (when it is outanged by boltguns, let alone heavy weapons), of deepstrike/turbo towards the enemy and hope to survive a turn with its AV10 all round (not sure if it can even Jink without becoming unable to fire on its next turn - I can't remember whether that applies to non-flyers).

Is it just me or is this incredibly useless? Am I missing something?? Some units can be shown to be statistically inferior to others of equal or less points in some or all situations, but this just seems way out there as a very expensive way of absorbing the small arms fire of a 10 man squad for 1 turn...

Mark.

Horus38
14-03-2013, 13:16
Not sure on most of the questions but something can turbo and still fire on its following turn. Bikes/skimmers get "jink" for free just by moving, and turbo only stops them from firing in the turn in which they do it.

Rogerio
14-03-2013, 13:16
Brilliant stuff from the GW design team, it sounds like a great unit but then you mention the cannot move and fire!

Sureshot05
14-03-2013, 13:29
It is terrible. I can only assume it is designed to punish those players who ignore it in favour of shooting your other stuff. Other than that, not a clue. Even the white dwarf article struggled to sell it given it died without doing anything. Think we can honestly say that the design studio did not play much Tzeentch this edition given the Woc, CSM, and two daemon books.

Killgore
14-03-2013, 13:39
I expect the Flamer to be given Relentless once the FAQ appears!

I really like the look of the model and need one anyway for a Herald conversion, so hurry up GW!

Lester
14-03-2013, 13:42
I expect the Flamer to be given Relentless once the FAQ appears!

I really like the look of the model and need one anyway for a Herald conversion, so hurry up GW!

This, I honestly believe GW can't be that stupid to have it not move and shoot.

andyg2006
14-03-2013, 13:50
I haven't got 6th yet. But if it's got an AV, isn't it assumed to ignore the 'Heavy' rule (e.g. like Predators, land raiders, tanks, etc do)? Or was that just 5th's rule?

Carnage
14-03-2013, 13:55
I haven't got 6th yet. But if it's got an AV, isn't it assumed to ignore the 'Heavy' rule (e.g. like Predators, land raiders, tanks, etc do)? Or was that just 5th's rule?

The problem is that the weapons aren't on the vehicle....they are on a passenger RIDING the vehicle. So much like 5th, if the vehicle moves the passengers cannot fire heavy weapons.

andyg2006
14-03-2013, 14:06
can the passenger leave the vehicle?

Carnage
14-03-2013, 14:36
can the passenger leave the vehicle?

Nope, he cannot.

totgeboren
14-03-2013, 14:51
I think this is an oversight, and as has been pointed out, will probably be rectified in the FAQ.

Vomikron Noxis
14-03-2013, 14:57
If they FAQ it to have relentless then it'll be a neat little unit. Otherwise, as others have pointed out, it's a waste of plastic.

Still Standing
14-03-2013, 15:46
Lets all be friends and just give the damn thing Relentless, as it was obviously supposed to be able to move and shoot.

ColShaw
14-03-2013, 15:51
Lets all be friends and just give the damn thing Relentless, as it was obviously supposed to be able to move and shoot.

Agreed. A chariot whose passengers can't shoot... it boggles the mind.

Konovalev
14-03-2013, 15:51
I posit that, as bad as the flamer chariot is right now, fire warriors are worse. Eldar guardians may also be a close competitor for worst unit, but I have never played eldar so I can't speak to that.

still-young
14-03-2013, 18:05
I posit that, as bad as the flamer chariot is right now, fire warriors are worse. Eldar guardians may also be a close competitor for worst unit, but I have never played eldar so I can't speak to that.
I thought fire warriors were meant to be good now, with new rapid fire rules?

A.T.
14-03-2013, 18:20
I thought fire warriors were meant to be good now, with new rapid fire rules?They are certainly improved.
Depends on how you quantify 'worst' though as there are plenty of units (including fire warriors) which can perform decently in the game but are poorly priced/equipped or possess some glaring function destroying weakness.

The chariot comes under the glaring weakness category. Firewarriors/guardians/battlesisters/etc are just generally a little poor overall, but wouldn't register on a 'worst units' list if not for their being all important troops choices.


I'm curious - if the chariot was changed to be able to fire on the move how would those of you who do play chaos perceive it?

loveless
14-03-2013, 18:54
Agreed. A chariot whose passengers can't shoot... it boggles the mind.

The plans of Tzeentch are not meant for mortal understanding.

Also, I agree it was most likely an oversight, as it hardly seems that it would be overpowered with the basic ability to move and shoot.

Inquisitor Shego
14-03-2013, 19:11
They are certainly improved.
Depends on how you quantify 'worst' though as there are plenty of units (including fire warriors) which can perform decently in the game but are poorly priced/equipped or possess some glaring function destroying weakness.

The chariot comes under the glaring weakness category. Firewarriors/guardians/battlesisters/etc are just generally a little poor overall, but wouldn't register on a 'worst units' list if not for their being all important troops choices.


I'm curious - if the chariot was changed to be able to fire on the move how would those of you who do play chaos perceive it?

It still doesn't wow me to be honest. I'm not down with the whole chariot motif. It's a large open topped vehicle and unlike say a Venom, this thing is so huge it won't be fun to hide. One gun's a range 18 BS-3 D3 shot anti tank weapon that will probably lose a shooting match to most other vehicles (bar the Venom or Rhino), and the other gun's a Str 5 Ap3 flamer overshadowed by an allied Helldrake, Baal Predator, or the Acid Spewing Hellhound Variant, all of which with greater survivability. It gets a 5++ with rerolling 1's, but given the prolific number of 4+ cover saves not keeping vehicles going from Glance Syndrome, I remain in doubt.

The one argument I hear is "If they're shooting it, they're not shooting other things in your army," but this is in my mind like a boxer saying "If he keeps punching my head, he's not punching my body." The dude's still punching you. Go the extra mile and get a durable soul grinder is my approach. More expensive but more durable. On the plus side they're cheap, and a nice kit if you think chariots belong in 40k (which I don't).

Dwane Diblie
14-03-2013, 20:34
I do not think it will get relentless, but will be made a Monsterous Creature ;) (And therefor relentless.) It's big enough for it.

Ace Rimmer
14-03-2013, 20:37
You could just buy several and build them as sorcerors on discs, a unit or 2 of screamers, a unit of really big flamers and a unit of horrors :P

ihavetoomuchminis
14-03-2013, 20:40
It still doesn't wow me to be honest. I'm not down with the whole chariot motif. It's a large open topped vehicle and unlike say a Venom, this thing is so huge it won't be fun to hide. One gun's a range 18 BS-3 D3 shot anti tank weapon that will probably lose a shooting match to most other vehicles (bar the Venom or Rhino), and the other gun's a Str 5 Ap3 flamer overshadowed by an allied Helldrake, Baal Predator, or the Acid Spewing Hellhound Variant, all of which with greater survivability. It gets a 5++ with rerolling 1's, but given the prolific number of 4+ cover saves not keeping vehicles going from Glance Syndrome, I remain in doubt.

The one argument I hear is "If they're shooting it, they're not shooting other things in your army," but this is in my mind like a boxer saying "If he keeps punching my head, he's not punching my body." The dude's still punching you. Go the extra mile and get a durable soul grinder is my approach. More expensive but more durable. On the plus side they're cheap, and a nice kit if you think chariots belong in 40k (which I don't).

This is something i can agree with.

I think it matters not how killy it can be when it gets relentless.....it's still a one shot unit. If it's lucky...it moves....it shots, kills something (probably wounding on 3's with the torrent, so not killing that many), and gets fired to death, or even better, gets assaulted by I2 unit, the glorious flamer inflicts a wound, gets killed, and gives FNP to the assaulting unit. WOW...what a great unit. At least if the D3 shots was 48" range...but it is not. And it's a heavy suport unit....and that part of the book is outshined by the soulgrinder. Only a properly tooled DP can stand a chance of disputing the slot.

aim
14-03-2013, 21:25
I'd still rather spend points on that than Vespid :P

Latro_
14-03-2013, 22:47
Played my mate last sat and he was putting one together and was eager to use daemon allies with his CSM owing to the new book.

I killed it as soon as it was close enough. For the same pts i has 2 land speeders with 4 heavy bolters!

yes, atm they are not worth considering other than proxying it as something else

Baaltor
14-03-2013, 23:24
Played my mate last sat and he was putting one together and was eager to use daemon allies with his CSM owing to the new book.

I killed it as soon as it was close enough. For the same pts i has 2 land speeders with 4 heavy bolters!

yes, atm they are not worth considering other than proxying it as something else

Kind of funny that it makes such a landspeeder seem powerful by comparison

Latro_
15-03-2013, 18:57
You know what, i'v love the dual HB speeders so far in 6th really done me well.

Plague Lord
15-03-2013, 19:10
I posit that, as bad as the flamer chariot is right now, fire warriors are worse. Eldar guardians may also be a close competitor for worst unit, but I have never played eldar so I can't speak to that.

I regularly play against tau and have to disagree with you. Fire warriors are pretty decent

JWhex
15-03-2013, 20:32
It is rather pathetic but there is a lot in the codex that I find to be rather lame.

MiyamatoMusashi
15-03-2013, 20:39
Vespid remain the worst.

wyvirn
15-03-2013, 20:45
Ummm Flying Ripper Swarms? They move too fast for most synapse creatures, and if they are out of synapse range, they eat themselves. The reason they aren't higher (or lower) on peoples lists is because no one in their right mind would take them.