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Invincible Sword Goddess
14-03-2013, 19:33
I always thought that space marines were sterile, or at the very least celibate. However, I have heard that in more recent fluff space marines who retire or are too injured to keep fighting now start families. Is this actually true? If so, are the children normal humans, marines, or something in between?

ryng_sting
14-03-2013, 20:02
Never seen anything about Marines and their joy dept. that states anything definitive.

stainawarjar
14-03-2013, 20:07
GW fluff tends to avoid directly mentioning naughty bits. Where'd you get that family thing from?

Horus38
14-03-2013, 20:15
However, I have heard that in more recent fluff space marines who retire or are too injured to keep fighting now start families. Is this actually true?

I consider myself pretty up to date on fluff (old and new) and I have never heard this bit mentioned anywhere, did you have a more specific source? Most space marines who are too old/injured will retire to the fortress monastery/fleet to train initiates or act in an advisory capacity to the chapter master/seniors.

Invincible Sword Goddess
14-03-2013, 20:15
I heard the family thing when a friend was telling me about one of the BL novels, I think one of The early heresy books, I can ask him for specifics later.

drmarco
14-03-2013, 20:20
I heard the family thing when a friend was telling me about one of the BL novels, I think one of The early heresy books, I can ask him for specifics later.

I...I see.

Never heard of anything to this effect...

M

aim
14-03-2013, 20:35
I'm afraid I have to agree, I've not heard anything about this, and I'm pretty up-to-date on fluff.

As far as I know, Marine old age either consists of them becoming instructors or corpses, I'm not sure theres an in-between.

Surgency
14-03-2013, 20:52
I heard the family thing when a friend was telling me about one of the BL novels, I think one of The early heresy books, I can ask him for specifics later.

Some of the old Space Wolf books talked about the Wolves getting a little crazy, but thats OLD fluff... The heresy books don't make any mention of anything like that

TheDungen
14-03-2013, 21:35
Didn't RT have something like that?

Dark_Kindred
14-03-2013, 21:40
We do not know if they are sterile but that strikes me as irrelevant because sterile people can clearly have sex. An important question in my mind would be: could Astartes even breed with normal humans if they were not sterile? Another important question: Would they even be attracted to mere mortals? As I recall, many Astartes began to view women in a different light during a "party" as they became corrupted by the Ruinous Powers. Black Library clearly does not have any problem with off-screen romances/sex, as we can see in the Eldar/Dark Eldar Path Series. From what I understand, that is also true in some of the Gaunt's Ghost books.

Frankly, I find the sterility/celibacy arguments to be somewhat lame. Some studies (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=sex-and-violence-linked) has concluded that sex and violence are neurologically linked. Given the battle-lust most Astartes seem to harbor in their heart of hearts, I find it strange that they aren't bouncing around committing war crimes or abusing chapter serfs. The best reason I can think of is that they just cannot exit their armor easily in the field and that most serfs are just mind-wiped chumps. It is also possible that chapters do not linger because their men might get out of control. I can only imagine what chapters like the Carcharodons do outside the bounds of Imperial Space and Imperial Law. They had a throw-down with the Executioners and made the Mantis Warriors potential recruits fight to the death for the sake of recruitment/spite.

Theocracity
14-03-2013, 22:08
I'm pretty sure that when you're the Emperor and you're creating a legion of genetically enhanced super soldiers who you plan to eventually phase out (as insinuated in some of the HH novels), you make sure to remove any chance that they could procreate on their own. If they could, you'd have to deal with the possibility that one marine could start his own Astartes dynastic legion - or worse, if their geneseed starts mutating through non-laboratory controlled evolution.

Bad monkey
14-03-2013, 22:28
It is possible that old fabulous Fabius bile might have been able to unfix fixed astrates, but that's a different line all together.

Besides that I'm fairly certain that if all the hormone and chems treatments haven't messed with the beans. I'm fairly certain that the constant exposure to toxic/rad warzones would have.

Drakcore Bloodtear
14-03-2013, 22:29
There was some old fluff (IA I think) of some Salamanders having families back on Nocturne, not biological families but the SM acts more like a guardian to the family.

However it was a while ago and I assume it's been ignored as just being a wild idea printed

Edit: just checked the IA and it states that


When not at war, the Chapter's warriors spend most of their time on Prometheus or living amongst the inhabitants of Nocturne. The Salamanders maintain very close links with their home world, mingling with the people rather than living aloof as many other Chapters do. The Salamanders are the settlements' leaders, a source of inspiration and guidance for the Nocturne populace, and it is as much this position of authority and respect that young aspirants crave as the chance to become a legendary warrior of the Emperor.

So maybe that's where I got it from, but swear somewhere it stated families
Oh well :p

Buddha777
14-03-2013, 22:29
I may be remembering incorrectly but I thought the older fluff states space marines were eunuchs and the only way to make a new marine was with geneseed.

Tim_Ward
14-03-2013, 22:31
Emperor's Gift makes it pretty clear that your Spess Mehren is completely without sex drive.

Invincible Sword Goddess
14-03-2013, 23:44
He say's he thinks it was in Horus Rising.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
14-03-2013, 23:56
There was some old fluff (IA I think) of some Salamanders having families back on Nocturne, not biological families but the SM acts more like a guardian to the family.
Well, I bet they have biological families. You know, they have parents, brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews, grand-nieces and grand-nephews…

narrativium
15-03-2013, 00:13
They're psychoindoctrined to the cause of war. They don't really relate to normal humans any more, and don't have the impulse to procreate.

At the risk of getting really messy: even if a Space Marine were interested, he's an eight-foot tall superhuman with monstrously athletic physique. Are you sure the female would survive the conception?

If it were possible, the child would be human. All the Space Marine organs are implanted, including the geneseed. There's no hereditary genetic instruction to pass along the idea of two hearts or a Betcher's Gland to a baby.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-03-2013, 01:08
Also :
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?233909-Background-FAQ-*Read-before-posting-new-thread*
There are already 4+ threads on the subject.

Spetulhu
15-03-2013, 01:35
If it were possible, the child would be human. All the Space Marine organs are implanted, including the geneseed. There's no hereditary genetic instruction to pass along the idea of two hearts or a Betcher's Gland to a baby.

This. A marine is a manufactured freak with enhancements, not a mutant with new genes to pass on. And that's the safeguard right there - they know they need normal humans in order to continue the Chapter so they have to make some effort to protect humanity.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2013, 03:24
he's an eight-foot tall superhuman

More like 6'10"-7' tall superhuman. Absolutely nowhere says anything otherwise. The most official things give them as being around 7' tall in armour.

Madmongo
15-03-2013, 10:16
I cant remember the exact book 'The primarchs?', but I do seem to recall their is a story involving a certain un-killable emperors children swordsman having a fight on a 'debased' observatory platform. There are serious suggestions of marines engaging in various 'dark' acts involving ordinary people, but this could be explained by their fall to slannesh.

BooTMGSG
15-03-2013, 10:31
I always assumed that like steroid abuse, the spacemarine induction led to hypogonadism.

Take that Ultramarines!

theshoveller
15-03-2013, 10:33
Didn't RT have something like that?
RT-era fluff refers to "chapter concubines" for what it's worth. Calgar was originally the child of one.

totgeboren
15-03-2013, 10:41
Frankly, I find the sterility/celibacy arguments to be somewhat lame. Some studies (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=sex-and-violence-linked) has concluded that sex and violence are neurologically linked. Given the battle-lust most Astartes seem to harbor in their heart of hearts, I find it strange that they aren't bouncing around committing war crimes or abusing chapter serfs. The best reason I can think of is that they just cannot exit their armor easily in the field and that most serfs are just mind-wiped chumps. It is also possible that chapters do not linger because their men might get out of control. I can only imagine what chapters like the Carcharodons do outside the bounds of Imperial Space and Imperial Law. They had a throw-down with the Executioners and made the Mantis Warriors potential recruits fight to the death for the sake of recruitment/spite.

It makes more sense I think to assume that their sex drive becomes part of their thirst for violence. That is, they get their 'sexual' pleasure from committing violence. Marines would have an almost instinctive need for battle. That's how I rationalised the behaviour of the Emperors Children especially, and just Space Marines in general.

TheDungen
15-03-2013, 12:03
Unless special procedures was made to preserve the space marines ability to reproduce the major changes made to them will make them sterile regardless of if they have their private parts left. One you start messing with the genetic code sterility is almost a given.

Many of the genetic deficiencies that exist today for an example comes with the added benefits of shorter life span and sterility. And we're talking the major ones, not colour blindness and allergies.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-03-2013, 15:04
So, we are going to build a fifth thread on that subject ?
Let's not forget to add it to the list then.

theunwantedbeing
15-03-2013, 15:39
He say's he thinks it was in Horus Rising.

Either you are trolling or your friend is having a joke at your expense.

TheDungen
16-03-2013, 09:30
a pun on the name sounding like a slash fiction =P

Bad monkey
16-03-2013, 09:36
a pun on the name sounding like a slash fiction =P

You sir gave me a chuckle at 9:30 on a Saturday morning. Not an easy thing to do when you've been up all night with a teething 7 month old child.

TheDungen
16-03-2013, 10:27
I aim to please =)

Sai-Lauren
16-03-2013, 12:22
a) To my knowldge, there's never been anything in the fluff - the only instance I can recall of anything similar is Ragnar before he joins the Space Wolves.

b) Most likely Marines are celibate - partly through chapter doctrine (no ties that could potentially be used against them, no distractions from their training and service), partly through indoctrination, partly through not really having any idea what to do with a woman anyway. Some chapters might make being able to have a family a reward, either for long service, or when a Marine is too old or injured to fight effectively anymore.

c) If a Marine were to father a child (and I'm sure there'd be many willing volunteers amongst the population of the imperium to give birth to a scion of one of the Emperor's living angels), they would be a normal human - the Marine enhancements would not carry through in their genes.

d) The basic topic comes up about once every three months in some form or another and the answers never, ever change - please use the search functionality.

Temmy
16-03-2013, 17:50
Space Marines aren't really human. they are war machines built from a framework of human meat and bones. I would imagine part of the process of their creation would involve redirecting their sex drives towards aggression. I can't see Space Marines even wanting to have sex. Sex and erotic love would be a distraction for space marines and a possible source of dissension. The desire would need to be removed or rewired towards the main purpose of the Astaretes..destroying the Emperor's foes.

Reasonable Commissar
19-03-2013, 15:16
Ive always read it as they are sterile from all the genetreatments and such and that they (normally) have no inclination towards it or sex drive.

From what Ive read about the Emperors Children it seems it is possible for them to have sex at least but their sex drive likely came from Slaanesh.

infamousme
19-03-2013, 16:25
"A near-legendary figure amongst fenris' womenfolk, Lukas was once famous for sharing a dozen beds in a single night" Space wolves codex, pg. 52

Now I'm not sure if that was before or after he was inducted to the wolves.

Vaulkhar
19-03-2013, 17:07
Pretty sure it was before, but I'd have to dig out the codex to check.

ryng_sting
19-03-2013, 17:25
It was before he became a Space Wolf.

Fact is we don't know if they're neutered, sterile or whatever once they become Marines.

infamousme
19-03-2013, 19:10
So as a 13 year old Lukas railed 12 chicks in a night? haha

Lothlanathorian
19-03-2013, 22:54
On a world where 'old age' is likely 'mid 30's', that sounds plausible. And stupid.

MarshalFaust
19-03-2013, 23:11
Never call a plague marine sterile.

Haskear
21-03-2013, 22:51
In the HH books it eludes to marines being immortal. In turms of creating a family this throws up negatives.

Francis
21-03-2013, 23:15
In the current space wolves codex one of the former wolf lords make a pass on a woman. Only then does he discover that what they thought were humans aren't human at all... Its clearly implied that the wolves are capable of the act, but then again the wolves are bit of a special case.

Eldartank
22-03-2013, 21:58
So as a 13 year old Lukas railed 12 chicks in a night? haha

Actually, the way I understand it, Space Wolves get their recruits from warrior tribesmen on Fenris who are amazingly valiant in battle, and many of their new recruits suffered wounds that would have killed them had they not been taken by the Space Wolves and healed to be trained as initiates. Basically, Space Wolf recruits (unlike codex chapter recruits) are striplings, probably around 16 to 19 years of age. Ragnar was around that age (late teens) when he was taken in and made a Space Wolf and eventually became the Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane. So it is easily believable that Lukas was well beyond puberty, in his late teens, when he had his many women before becoming a Space Wolf.

Sai-Lauren
22-03-2013, 22:15
Unfortunatly, the big "how to make a Space Marine" article says they're selected at very early teens. Even for the Space Wolves.

No ifs. No buts.

If it got retconned to post-puberty - say early to mid 20s, with scouts going to late 30s - I'd be very happy (especially to get around the child soliders connotations), unfortunatly, that would probably dissaude the "you're 14-16, hey, look, you too could potentially be a space marine, they're the greatest thing since the greatest thing since sliced bread" brigade from playing.

M@L@L
22-03-2013, 23:06
Unfortunatly, the big "how to make a Space Marine" article says they're selected at very early teens. Even for the Space Wolves.

No ifs. No buts.

If it got retconned to post-puberty - say early to mid 20s, with scouts going to late 30s - I'd be very happy (especially to get around the child soliders connotations), unfortunatly, that would probably dissaude the "you're 14-16, hey, look, you too could potentially be a space marine, they're the greatest thing since the greatest thing since sliced bread" brigade from playing.

You reckon? granted, I am well beyond that age range now, but I can't really recall the whole being inducted while still squeezing spots in the mirror thing holding much appeal for me regarding Space Marines. Sure, like many, I did like the Space Marines as a premise, because they're super soldiers, and everyone likes super soldiers regardless of their age. If anything, what held my attention as a teen when it came to Space Marines was the Space Marine novel. The missions they went on were all so freaking awesome.

One film which is kinda close to that whole kids turned into Super Soldiers thing was the film Soldier, with Kurt Russel. A pretty grim film, really. I mean, one of the fat kids that can't keep up gets executed for crying out loud. Not even the Space Marines are that harsh. I imagine any such failures would be mind scrubbed and used as some sort of servant. The film's a piece of crap, by the by, but that's beside the point. And if anything, it made the prospect of becoming any sort of soldier from an early age more terrifying, than super OMFG awesome.

Eldartank
23-03-2013, 01:12
Unfortunatly, the big "how to make a Space Marine" article says they're selected at very early teens. Even for the Space Wolves.

No ifs. No buts.

If it got retconned to post-puberty - say early to mid 20s, with scouts going to late 30s - I'd be very happy (especially to get around the child soliders connotations), unfortunatly, that would probably dissaude the "you're 14-16, hey, look, you too could potentially be a space marine, they're the greatest thing since the greatest thing since sliced bread" brigade from playing.

The way I understand it from reading some of the novels and other fluff, typical Codex Chapters recruit young boys aged 10 to 12 years or so. But the Space Wolves take as recruits young tribal warriors who distinguished themselves in battle. The "Choosers of the Slain," Wolf Priests of the Space Wolves, watch when battles between tribes are taking place, and then take those who fought the bravest, even if they are mortally wounded, because their medical technology can heal them. Then they are subjected to rigourous testing and training, and then the survivors go on to start the process of being made into Space Wolves. According to the "Space Wolf" books by William King, Ragnar and his rival Strybjorn were in their late teens when they were chosen.

In one of the Ultramarines novels, there is a scene where Uriel Ventris (Captain of the 4th Company) is remembering an incident during the time he was still an initiate, and he was around 14 at that time. And it implies that at that time when he was 14, he had been in training for quite some time.

In one of the Blood Raven novels, there is a scene where the Space Marines take a 10-year-old boy from one war-torn settlement as a potential recruit.

Eldartank
23-03-2013, 01:19
You reckon? granted, I am well beyond that age range now, but I can't really recall the whole being inducted while still squeezing spots in the mirror thing holding much appeal for me regarding Space Marines. Sure, like many, I did like the Space Marines as a premise, because they're super soldiers, and everyone likes super soldiers regardless of their age. If anything, what held my attention as a teen when it came to Space Marines was the Space Marine novel. The missions they went on were all so freaking awesome.

One film which is kinda close to that whole kids turned into Super Soldiers thing was the film Soldier, with Kurt Russel. A pretty grim film, really. I mean, one of the fat kids that can't keep up gets executed for crying out loud. Not even the Space Marines are that harsh. I imagine any such failures would be mind scrubbed and used as some sort of servant. The film's a piece of crap, by the by, but that's beside the point. And if anything, it made the prospect of becoming any sort of soldier from an early age more terrifying, than super OMFG awesome.

I rather enjoyed the movie "Soldier," but I guess that's another discussion... lol. Anyway, I think the Chapters vary as to what they do with failed recruits. Some Chapters simply kill the failures, some turn them into servitors, and some turn failures into Chapter Serfs who are very loyal to the Chapter. In the one Crimson Fists novel (I think it is Rynn's World), one of the characters is a high-ranking palace guard type for the Chapter, who is sort of the captain of the Chapter Serfs and the main liason between the Crimson Fists and the normal humans on the planet. I remember reading somewhere that some Chapters have their ships crewed by Chapter Serfs (failed recruits) who are, even as failed recruits, better than average humans and fanatically loyal to the Chapter to the point where it would be near suicide for an enemy to try boarding such a ship.

djhowitzer
23-03-2013, 01:27
space marines dont have willies. the just have plastic blue pants, like action man.

if they did have willies they would only ever use them on each other anyway. space marines are the biggest colection of muscle marys in the history of stories. epaminondas of thebes would think them too gay for words, and his entire military success was based on the "companions"

TheDungen
23-03-2013, 10:36
as i said earlier, space marines havign their private parts, those private parts being usable and them being sterile or not are three different questions. as to the whole sterile parts i would say they are, becomming spacemarines wil have changed their own genetic code, but no will will have bothered to change teir reproductive system to pass of a quite different genetic code, it seems very unlikely that space marines can ever have children.

on the other two counts i have no idea.

Hellebore
25-03-2013, 00:56
The way I understand it from reading some of the novels and other fluff, typical Codex Chapters recruit young boys aged 10 to 12 years or so. But the Space Wolves take as recruits young tribal warriors who distinguished themselves in battle. The "Choosers of the Slain," Wolf Priests of the Space Wolves, watch when battles between tribes are taking place, and then take those who fought the bravest, even if they are mortally wounded, because their medical technology can heal them. Then they are subjected to rigourous testing and training, and then the survivors go on to start the process of being made into Space Wolves. According to the "Space Wolf" books by William King, Ragnar and his rival Strybjorn were in their late teens when they were chosen.

In one of the Ultramarines novels, there is a scene where Uriel Ventris (Captain of the 4th Company) is remembering an incident during the time he was still an initiate, and he was around 14 at that time. And it implies that at that time when he was 14, he had been in training for quite some time.

In one of the Blood Raven novels, there is a scene where the Space Marines take a 10-year-old boy from one war-torn settlement as a potential recruit.

Even the space wolf novels had Ragnar and his cohort as ~12-13 year olds. They're a tribal society where being a man/warrior occurs at a young age and where the life expectency is really low. iirc Ragnar becomes a warrior at a ceremony just before he is taken and it alludes to them being really young. This is no different to modern of historical tribes initiating their members at puberty.

iirc these young tribal members are called wolf brothers and they specifically fight with ferocity to catch the eye of the gods.

The reason you have to be recruited at 12-13 is because all the organs etc work in concert with puberty. Post pubescent males cannot become space marines because none of the biochemical changes that occur through puberty are happening. This the reason Luther and all the other dark angel elders were unable to become space marines.

Hellebore

The Warmaster
27-03-2013, 03:06
a) To my knowldge, there's never been anything in the fluff - the only instance I can recall of anything similar is Ragnar before he joins the Space Wolves.

Not quite - there's some very clear sexual tension between him and a female Inquisitor in, I believe, Ragnar's Claw, which is a fair while after his elevation to full Astartes. They don't act on it though, although there's an "if things were different..." comment made there.

It's Space Wolves, though. We know that their gene-seed is unique (e.g. the additional Canis Helix), and their psycho-indoctrination seems to leave their original personality and drives more intact than in other Marine Chapters. Everything else post-Rogue Trader points to other Marines being celibate... I've read nothing confirming sterility, although I'm leaning on the "not sterile" side, seeing as how the associated reduction in testosterone and other androgens like DHT would hardly be ideal for a superhuman killing machine. This is all assuming no influence or corruption on Slaanesh's part, of course.


In the HH books it eludes to marines being immortal. In turms of creating a family this throws up negatives.

The earlier Heresy books have a lot of speculation on this, but at that point in time, they just didn't know. Remember that Space Marines had only been around for ~200 years, maybe a little longer, as of most HH novels, so they only had the current generations to go off (and even the original Unification veterans like Iacton Qruze were only middle-aged by the standards of a lot of modern Marine Chapters at that point, assuming that the nigh 400-year-old Chaplain Cassius' place as oldest Ultramarine is anything to go by for the more short-lived Chapters). If you read Angel Exterminatus, though, Fabius Bile confirms that it's a myth, and that he does what he does because he wants to be immortal like people thought SMs were.

Lothlanathorian
27-03-2013, 05:20
Associated reduction in testosterone? Nope. Higher testosterone, however, can lead to sterility. Also, since their diet consists of modified foods, there could be a chemical castration element which would not lead to a testosterone reduction.

Lupe
27-03-2013, 22:30
In my opinion, it's the fact that all recruits are implanted with their respective primarch's geneseed that accounts for their sterility.

We're talking about a highly engineered genetic component that embeds itself into your DNA and adds a whole new range of strands and helixes that weren't ever meant to be there in the first place. So what does that mean in terms of sterility / fertility?
Option A. The body doesn't recognize your new genetic code, and therefore can't initiate the processes needed to copy half the chain into the sperm cells, so you're effectively packing an empty clip
Option B. The body recognizes your new genetic code, replicates it accordingly into sperm cells, but should any of these cells reach an egg cell (I can't recall the medical term now, so I'll roll with egg cell), the fertilization wouldn't happen, since the DNA structures in the two cells no longer match, so the egg either remains inert or is destroyed in the process. In this case, you wouldn't be packing an empty clip, but you'd be firing blanks.

This seems cleaner and thorougher than other explanations, such as indoctrination, brain rewiring, chemical diets, etc, making it a viable explanation that covers every Astartes, both traitor or loyalist, and is valid regardless of the different conditioning, training, rituals or diets each individual chapter or warband might adhere to internally.

EDIT:
Incidentally, it's also a good way to justify why the marine recruites are youngsters who never got past the early stages of puberty. I.e, if the reproductive systems develop fully, they'd override most likely try to override the changes caused by the geneseed, with a solid (50-70%) chance that the body would either not accept the geneseed or rewire itself in a way that leads to death. That would allow for some chance for older Space Marines to be created (such as Russ' early companions, who all went through the implantation process despite the risks of the procedure at their age, and some even survived to become marines), but still provide a strong reason for why they really need their recruits so young.

madprophet
27-03-2013, 22:41
Space Marines do it FOR THE EMPRAH!!!!

Seriously, though the fluff has evolved over time. Originally, Space Marines could have families, later they became Warrior Monks with black carapace chastity belts... now, who knows? If you need them to have families, then you can find fluff that says you can. If you need them to be celibate, that works too. Maybe it varies by chapter?

TheDungen
29-03-2013, 00:16
In my opinion, it's the fact that all recruits are implanted with their respective primarch's geneseed that accounts for their sterility.

We're talking about a highly engineered genetic component that embeds itself into your DNA and adds a whole new range of strands and helixes that weren't ever meant to be there in the first place. So what does that mean in terms of sterility / fertility?
Option A. The body doesn't recognize your new genetic code, and therefore can't initiate the processes needed to copy half the chain into the sperm cells, so you're effectively packing an empty clip
Option B. The body recognizes your new genetic code, replicates it accordingly into sperm cells, but should any of these cells reach an egg cell (I can't recall the medical term now, so I'll roll with egg cell), the fertilization wouldn't happen, since the DNA structures in the two cells no longer match, so the egg either remains inert or is destroyed in the process. In this case, you wouldn't be packing an empty clip, but you'd be firing blanks.

This seems cleaner and thorougher than other explanations, such as indoctrination, brain rewiring, chemical diets, etc, making it a viable explanation that covers every Astartes, both traitor or loyalist, and is valid regardless of the different conditioning, training, rituals or diets each individual chapter or warband might adhere to internally.

EDIT:
Incidentally, it's also a good way to justify why the marine recruites are youngsters who never got past the early stages of puberty. I.e, if the reproductive systems develop fully, they'd override most likely try to override the changes caused by the geneseed, with a solid (50-70%) chance that the body would either not accept the geneseed or rewire itself in a way that leads to death. That would allow for some chance for older Space Marines to be created (such as Russ' early companions, who all went through the implantation process despite the risks of the procedure at their age, and some even survived to become marines), but still provide a strong reason for why they really need their recruits so young.

Thank you Lupe that's what i've been trying to say all the time, even if their stuff functions it'd still be mating a horse to a donkey, and that's the best case scanario.

agurus1
29-03-2013, 05:05
Double post

agurus1
29-03-2013, 05:09
Even the space wolf novels had Ragnar and his cohort as ~12-13 year olds. They're a tribal society where being a man/warrior occurs at a young age and where the life expectency is really low. iirc Ragnar becomes a warrior at a ceremony just before he is taken and it alludes to them being really young. This is no different to modern of historical tribes initiating their members at puberty.

iirc these young tribal members are called wolf brothers and they specifically fight with ferocity to catch the eye of the gods.

The reason you have to be recruited at 12-13 is because all the organs etc work in concert with puberty. Post pubescent males cannot become space marines because none of the biochemical changes that occur through puberty are happening. This the reason Luther and all the other dark angel elders were unable to become space marines.

Hellebore

The Space wolves would have a precedent of create space marines at a later age. When the emperor arrived to claim Leman Russ, (in Prospero Burns it talks about this I think), most of his warrior petitioned to join him as a full space marine (NOTE: not simply under going the buffs like Luther for the DA for instance) despite the risks involved. Many died, but many made the transition. What I, saying is that the Wolves have some history of inducting older applicants, so I don't think that they might sweat using older subjects than the codex chapters (especially because their aspirants are usually almost dead once they are chosen anyway lol).

Btw in addition to all that the pre-puberty thing isn't a cap, it's just the age range that is most efficient (most likely to result in a stable recruit), so codex chapters would be more likely to abide by this stricture since they want their geneseed to have the best chance of success lol. Space Wolves are already diverging from the codex way of recruiting by choosing from the ranks of great but nearly dead warriors.

JWhex
30-03-2013, 05:08
I'm afraid I have to agree, I've not heard anything about this, and I'm pretty up-to-date on fluff.

As far as I know, Marine old age either consists of them becoming instructors or corpses, I'm not sure theres an in-between.

The in between stage is dreadnought armour.

Sai-Lauren
30-03-2013, 10:21
Thank you Lupe that's what i've been trying to say all the time, even if their stuff functions it'd still be mating a horse to a donkey, and that's the best case scanario.
No it wouldn't

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_therapy
Gene therapy may be classified into the two following types:
Somatic gene therapy

In somatic gene therapy, the therapeutic genes are transferred into the somatic cells, or body, of a patient. Any modifications and effects will be restricted to the individual patient only, and will not be inherited by the patient's offspring or later generations. Somatic gene therapy represents the mainstream line of current basic and clinical research, where the therapeutic DNA transgene (either integrated in the genome or as an external episome or plasmid) is used to treat a disease in an individual.
Germ line gene therapy

In germ line gene therapy, germ cells, i.e., sperm or eggs, are modified by the introduction of functional genes, which are integrated into their genomes. This would allow the therapy to be heritable and passed on to later generations. Although this should, in theory, be highly effective in counteracting genetic disorders and hereditary diseases, many jurisdictions prohibit this for application in human beings, at least for the present, for a variety of technical and ethical reasons.

Marines would get the somatic type, and thus, any enhancements wouldn't get carried on to subsequent generations.

TheDungen
31-03-2013, 10:56
yeah but the way we do genetherapy today jumps through a lot of hoops to not rob the patient of being able to have children, the imperium would propbly just do the simplest method.

Col. Tartleton
31-03-2013, 14:24
I cant remember the exact book 'The primarchs?', but I do seem to recall their is a story involving a certain un-killable emperors children swordsman having a fight on a 'debased' observatory platform. There are serious suggestions of marines engaging in various 'dark' acts involving ordinary people, but this could be explained by their fall to slannesh.

What they do goes well beyond traditional human nastiness like rape, although that's probably there for good measure.

The Emperor's Children normally torture people to death and dismember them and then render them down for hormones so they can get high off them.

The only sexual pleasures Marines might be wired for is sexual sadism.

Anyhow, if you look at knights:

At 7 you become a Page and do traditional genteel education. At 14 you become a Squire and begin your martial arts training. At 21 you become a knight. Give or take.

The Pagan Knightly Order, the Jomsvikings were required to be 18 for membership, but a 12 year old got in after he defeated the second in command in a fight. In fairness he was a lousy second in command, later known for betrayals and cowardice and the kid was a prodigy who became a great hero of the order.

So a prodigious preteen can fight grown professional warriors and win. That's the sort of guy they're looking for.

Ideally you'd want to allow the process to occur with natural maturation. Or so they tell us, and so we have to believe.

TheDungen
31-03-2013, 17:14
I take it you're talking about Styrbjörn? And how are Jomsvikingarna a knightly order?

Freak Ona Leash
31-03-2013, 22:42
I take it you're talking about Styrbjörn? And how are Jomsvikingarna a knightly order?

In English, "knight" often gets used as short-hand for organized warrior classes, even in areas where there were no knights, or time periods where there were none. I don't think the Colonel was implying the Jomsvikings were aristocratic cavalrymen owing feudal obligations.

Inquisitor Kallus
01-04-2013, 09:36
99.9% sure I read that Marines cannot reproduce as the whole 'Space Marine' process removes that 'ability'. I can't remember specifics or exactly where I read it (as I have read waaaay too much GW source material).