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View Full Version : "Can I Charge?"/"Charging More Than One Unit" with Terror



PinkSpaceHippy
15-03-2013, 01:12
Quick set up: one of the guys I play against plays Empire. He generally takes a big 10x5 block of Swordsmen (plus BSB and Warrior Priest) and sits a tiny detachment of Archers in front of them to block charges. I have a Daemon Prince (which has Terror), siting in front of them.

166618

Relevant rules to my question are as follows:


Can I Charge? (BRB pg. 16)

Note that ifsuch obstruction is another unit, and there is a chance that the intervening unit will move out of the chargers' way before the charge is completed, the charge is 'possible', and therefore can be declared...


Charging More Than One Unit (BRB pg. 18)

...if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another (sometimes known as 'clipping') then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit(s).

My reasoning, from RAW:

I want to charge the big block. There would need to be some chance that the archers would not be there for that to happen. Presently, there's no way to complete that charge without hitting the archers on the way (nowhere does the rule say you have to hit both units at the same time for "clipping"), so I would have to declare the charge against them, too. Because I cause Terror, there would be the chance that they would not be there (if they fail and flee), which fulfills the requirement to declare a charge against the big block (the charges are declared at the same time; you don't wait until you hit the unit because a charge can never bring you into base-to-base with a unit you haven't declared a charge against).

Can I do this, or would I need another unit to charge the archers/charge the archers myself in hopes that they flee through the big block and cause panic? If I can't, please provide a solid reasoning via RAW why not.

reddevil18
15-03-2013, 02:24
You can charge the archer block and if they flee redirect your charge into the swordsmen?
No page ref sorry but look in the context for redirect

PinkSpaceHippy
15-03-2013, 05:06
I'm not looking for redirecting. I know the rules for that. I'm looking for a yes or no on the double charge.

Artiee
15-03-2013, 05:16
Are you not happy with the response you got on Dakka Dakka? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/513470.page;jsessionid=E4B4AF33605C8E578E99B55F7E1 AD536

JDV311
15-03-2013, 05:43
Based on your diagram I would say yes but only because you're flying. You have to hit the front of the unit and it looks as if there is room on the extreme left/right side of the swordsmen. You ignore the 1" rule when charging but you would only be in base contact with one model of the swordsman unit and not in base contact with the archers though. In the end it would just be easier to charge the archers and put yourself in a position to overrun into the unit.

dementian
15-03-2013, 05:49
My contention with your charging more than one enemy interpretation is that you are not charging more than one enemy. If you wanted to charge the big block but the archers are in the way you don't get to declare another charge against them for free because there is no way for you to be in contact with both enemies at once. Therefore you are not charging another enemy you are charging a single enemy and it is not the one you declared against so.

However, your base sizes in the picture are misleading at best. It appears the archer detachment is not the same size bases as the large unit. Also, a 10 wide unit of 20mm models is 200mm. 5 archers with ~1/2 inch between them is about 150mm that means there should be 2.5cm on either side of the detachment for you to fit your DP. You should be able to at the VERY least clip corner to corner with the large unit avoiding the detachment.

PinkSpaceHippy
15-03-2013, 07:41
No, Art, I wasn't, because not one person over there aside from GT was actually smart enough to answer the question at hand.

Thank you, dem, for actually giving a good explanation there. The diagram gets weird when its shrunk in the forum, but at full size when you click on it they are exactly the same size (I did it to scale 1 pixel = 1mm).

Related to trying to fit on the side, do I not need to be able to get the most number of models in combat in this case (that would mean I would have to make it in corner-to-corner with the outermost dude).

Also for skirmisher spacing, it says, "roughly 1/2" apart," and nothing is mentioned in the FAQ. Exactly how much allowance in either side of 1/2" does "roughly" get you (i.e., can he space them far enough I can't make myself fit on a corner)?

T10
15-03-2013, 08:56
Can I do this, or would I need another unit to charge the archers/charge the archers myself in hopes that they flee through the big block and cause panic? If I can't, please provide a solid reasoning via RAW why not.

First off, I don't see any option to charge both units at the same time: You can't land on top of the skirmishers to engage the block, you can't engage both, but you can engage the skirmishers. As far as I can tell you only get to charge more than one uit if the maximization rules make it impossible to avoid.

Now, you can't charge the block whithout there being a chance that the skirmishers flee first: They need to move away so that there is room to land! Sure, you can argue that the unit if you target them with a redirect-charge, but that is reliant on the block fleeing from the initial charge.

This means that in order for the first charge to have any chance of success, it must also fail! And you are not allowed to declare a charge that cannot be completed.

If you have a supporting unit that can declare a charge against the skirmishers, you can do this:

1. Declare a charge against the block with your Daemon Prince. Let's assume this passes its test and holds.
2. Declare a charge against the skirmishers with your supporting unit. Let's assume this also holds. This means it immedately compacts into a "block" formation.

If your Daemon Prince now fits he kan engage the block. If he doesn't fit it's a failed charge.

-T10

teafloy_the_damned
15-03-2013, 08:59
I believe the "can i charge BRB Pg16" refers to your own units charging.

So if one of your units is blocking another from charging, since you choose the order of charges, the blocking unit can charge out of the way of the blocked unit, allowing the unit to charge a enemy unit it orignally couldn't complete a charge against.

SO spinning it around, if the empire big block wanted to charge your DP, with the archers in place, it could declare even though it cannot complete. What you have to do is charge the archers out of the big blocks way so it can then complete the charge. That's what Pg16 is referring too.


If you could fit the DP base between the 2 units, if it was exactly 50mm then yes you could charge the big block and when you make contact, you also have to declare a charge vs the archers as you would be in base contact.
Thats where the "charging more than one unit BRB Pg18" comes into it.

As neither of these situations apply, you have 2 choices:
1: Charge the archers, kill/panic them, overrun/re-direct into the big block.
2: Fly over to the archers to the side of the big block, flame them and then charge next turn

To quote Kat out of red dwarf: "Sorry Bud, gotta be cruel"

T10
15-03-2013, 11:07
I believe the "can i charge BRB Pg16" refers to your own units charging.


As an example, yes. It does not state this to be the only circumstance where there is a chance that the path to the target becomes clear.

-T10

thesoundofmusica
15-03-2013, 11:25
As far as I can tell you only get to charge more than one uit if the maximization rules make it impossible to avoid.

-T10

Maximization doesnt take precedence in charging multiple targets.
The only time you can charge more than one unit is if a unit you wish to charge cannot in any way be charged without also touching another unit. This is the only requirement. Maximization doesnt come into it at this point, only when completing the charge.

T10
15-03-2013, 12:18
Maximization doesnt take precedence in charging multiple targets.
The only time you can charge more than one unit is if a unit you wish to charge cannot in any way be charged without also touching another unit. This is the only requirement. Maximization doesnt come into it at this point, only when completing the charge.

You misunderstand me. The maximization rule may cause the chargers to contact multiple units when the only way to avoid contact with a second unit is to reduce the number of models fighting.

It looks better with a diagram, but imagine two enemy units of 1 model each with 50mm wide bases standing 1" apart. You have a unit three models wide, also with 50mm bases. The optimal way to contact the enemy is one edge-to-edge plus two corner-to-corner, a total of four models fighting. However, the chargers will have too much frontage to avoid also contacting the second unit.

-T10

Iraf
15-03-2013, 12:44
You are unable to declare a charge against both units in this case for one very basic reason. Since the Daemon Prince is in the front arc of both the Archers and the Swordsmen, the DP would have to end up finishing its charge contact in the front arc of both units. As far as I can see that is literally impossible.

Flank And Rear Charges Pg 21.

thesoundofmusica
15-03-2013, 13:23
@ T10

No I think I understood.
However, "maximize" is not the one rule to take precedence over all other rules. You maximize within the charge declared. If you CAN complete the charge touching only one unit (with no consideration to maximizing, as indeed it isnt stated in the rules of charging) then you must. And from there you maximize as much as possible, without breaking any other rules.

You can only ever declare on two or more units if a charge against a unit was otherwise impossible, with no regards to maximizing as written.

shakedown47
15-03-2013, 20:24
Going by the chart shown above, it is not necessary to declare a charge against the archer unit since there is room on either edge of the block to make contact with at least a single model (the "maximum" amount you are able engage with the units so arrayed.)

If the archer unit was big enough to have its edges overlap the edges of block on either side, your only option would be to declare a charge against the archers only, as there is no possible way for the DP to maximize the number of archer combatants AND be aligned and in base contact with both their and the block's front.

However, my advice would be to just charge the archers. Either they flee, possibly though not likely causing panic on the block, allowing you to redirect into the block OR, better-case scenario, they hold, you annihilate them and overrun into the block anyway, only now you've picked up the small amount of points for the archers to boot with only the very minor (for a DP) inconvenience of fighting after his magic phase. Win-win.

Another way to deal with the scenario above is to declare a charge against the archers with a unit of dogs or something like that; when they declare their stand and shoot reaction they will then bunch up around the center model, clearing a path for your DP to at least be able to clip the empire block.

Lord Inquisitor
15-03-2013, 20:33
Agreed - as per the diagram you would be able to nick the corner and clip the far unit, but assuming the enemy had enough archers to prevent that, no you can't charge the main unit. That's what chaff's for and no there isn't a combo-charge situation here. There's no way you could be in combat with both units at the same time via a charge so you do not declare a charge against both. You'd declare a charge against the archers and if they fled you'd have to redirect.

I don't see the big deal though. Charge the archers, they either flee (voluntarily or not) and you redirect, or they hold you kill them and overrun.

There's another solution thinking about it. Charge the archers with something else and they should rank up enough to sneak your DP past them.

PinkSpaceHippy
15-03-2013, 21:12
Good point on forcing the rank-up. My goal isn't simply to get into combat with the big unit, but to make it flee and either catch it or run it off the board (using Lore of Death for -3 Ld and giving an extra unit Terror). I'd rather go straight to making them take tests rather than hoping for the redirect since they'll be at Ld 7 instead of Ld 5 like his other unit (8 for character - 3). Though, I suppose if I did make the archers flee, the panic test they would cause would be an extra chance to make the big block flee.

For clarification, if I had my 10x Forsaken and 5x Knights in the picture, I could declare charges like this?

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Saldiven
15-03-2013, 21:18
For clarification, if I had my 10x Forsaken and 5x Knights in the picture, I could declare charges like this?

166668

Looks fine as long as everything would fit as appears on the diagram. It is possible that in actual game play that the scale and placement of the models might cause one or more failed charges, but it looks to be completely legal in theory.

Lord Inquisitor
15-03-2013, 21:20
Yup, legal. They form up the moment the charge is declared, leaving you free to declare further charges at the unit behind. It's an unpleasant surprise for people who use skirmishers as chaff sometimes.

T10
17-03-2013, 18:56
Though, I suppose if I did make the archers flee, the panic test they would cause would be an extra chance to make the big block flee.

Possibly. Bear in mind that Terror triggers a Panic test, and units only need to take one Panic test per phase. If the Archers fled through the big block and trigger a test, then your main advantage is that you can decide not to commit your Terror-causing unit: If the first test is passed then the big block isn't going to be scared off by your Daemon prince but are ready to fight.

PinkSpaceHippy
18-03-2013, 04:01
T10, Terror tests aren't panic tests. If they pass a panic test and I redirected into them, they'd still need a Terror test. They'd need another Terror test if I declared a charge with another unit that has Terror afterwards.

Iraf
18-03-2013, 04:38
T10, Terror tests aren't panic tests. If they pass a panic test and I redirected into them, they'd still need a Terror test. They'd need another Terror test if I declared a charge with another unit that has Terror afterwards.

Actually T10 is quite correct. If charged by a Terror causing unit, the target unit must immediately take a "panic test" to quell the Terror. Pg 78 Run for your lives! paragraph