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Zetari
18-03-2013, 17:37
Hey guys i just got the new deamon codex and am looking at the magic items but there is no price on them there is just that buff thingi that i also dont understand who it should work..
Can someone help me?
Is it hard to understand or am i stupid!

Asensur
18-03-2013, 17:43
Hey guys i just got the new deamon codex and am looking at the magic items but there is no price on them there is just that buff thingi that i also dont understand who it should work..
Can someone help me?
Is it hard to understand or am i stupid!

You can't buy magic items directly (except magic standards).

First, you buy exalted, greater or lesser gifts (maximum 2 chices of the same type of gift).

Second, you roll for each gift you have bought and follow the instructions on page 61.

You can swap any result of 1-6 for a result of 0 for that gift.

Note that:

-Items from the BRB can't be duplicated
-Results 1-6 (enchanted items) can be duplicated in the army and that a model can have more than 1 (but not the same result repeated)
-Items from page 62 can be duplicated in the army, but can't be duplicated on the same model.
-Items from page 63 are one per army.

Zetari
18-03-2013, 17:57
Okej so lets se if i got this right!

i buy the exalted, greater or lesser gifts! and then roll depending on time or what i have bouth.
ex: 2 lesser i roll the 1-6 : i get 2-3 cleaving blow and crushing mass as my "magic gifts" "Items".

Kalandros
18-03-2013, 18:09
Yes. If you didn't like the roll you got, you choose Gift #0 - the Magic Weapon option (at Exalted: 1 of 4 Hellforged Artifact option)

Piercefierce
19-03-2013, 04:49
It doesn't actually say you can have duplicates of the same gift. It implies it by saying no item can be duplicated per daemon individually but it doesn't go on to say they may be duplicated on different daemons in your army. Until an errata it's a hard call. your opponent may complain that as they are magic items they can't be duplicated at all because it doesn't say they can. The daemon book needs a serious errata I've never seen a book with so many poorly worded rules. (If I've missed something let me know I don't have the book on me).

Kalandros
19-03-2013, 08:19
All gifts count as Enchanted Items if a type isn't specified. So if you roll 2+ armor save, another demon in the same army cannot have it.

yeknoMehT
19-03-2013, 13:32
I'm not certain (not having my book handy to confirm), but I seem to recall think the restriction on 'no magic items duplicated' is in the choosing of items themselves. The only thing that the gifts counting as enchanted items would have would be for things that can negate/destroy enchanted items.
Otherwise you could never have two gifts if one of them was not a magic weapon (as you cannot normally take more than one enchanted item).

selecta
19-03-2013, 18:13
I'm not certain (not having my book handy to confirm), but I seem to recall think the restriction on 'no magic items duplicated' is in the choosing of items themselves. The only thing that the gifts counting as enchanted items would have would be for things that can negate/destroy enchanted items.
Otherwise you could never have two gifts if one of them was not a magic weapon (as you cannot normally take more than one enchanted item).

Only 3 hellforged artefacts are classed enchanted iteams apart from the eternal blade which is a magical weapon. All the weapons of the dark gods are magical. The rest of gifts are stat improvements or special rules for your daemon.

Kalandros
19-03-2013, 18:16
The restrictions are clear in the book.
You may have more than one of any type of magic items (unlike other armies)
If you have two magic weapons, you choose which one you use each combat round
If you have a gift without an item type specified, it counts as an Enchanted Item

Therefore, no two daemons in the same army may have the same Gifts

Phazael
19-03-2013, 18:51
None of the rolled gifts (aside from the default zero choices) are classified as items in any way, Kalandros. They are statline boosts. The book says that the same gift cannot be duplicated on the same Daemon, but nowhere does it state that multiple characters in the same book could not have them, so if they cannot then why make such a distinction? Further, the book actually states that a DoC character with multiple magic weapons gets to choose each round of close combat which one applies, so they are already parting with the core rules restrictions right there.

And honestly, anyone loading up on overpriced decked out heralds is doing you a favor, anyhow. Outside the occasional BSB with Fencer Blades, you will generally only see these charts used on Greater Daemons.

yeknoMehT
19-03-2013, 21:53
None of the rolled gifts (aside from the default zero choices) are classified as items in any way, Kalandros. They are statline boosts. The book says that the same gift cannot be duplicated on the same Daemon, but nowhere does it state that multiple characters in the same book could not have them, so if they cannot then why make such a distinction? Further, the book actually states that a DoC character with multiple magic weapons gets to choose each round of close combat which one applies, so they are already parting with the core rules restrictions right there.

And honestly, anyone loading up on overpriced decked out heralds is doing you a favor, anyhow. Outside the occasional BSB with Fencer Blades, you will generally only see these charts used on Greater Daemons.

Sadly, having checked my books, I have to agree with Kalandros. For some strange reason they have actually made something in an army book quite clear. The book states "Daemonic gifts otherwise follow the rules for magic items (specifically, Enchanted Items, unless otherwise stated) with the exception that a Daemon can carry more than one item of each type."

The BRB states that "Magic items are considered to be unique - you can only have one of each in your army unless otherwise stated in the magic item's rules."

Since there is no such provision in the daemonic gifts rules, you cannot duplicate them.

This does mean that giving the odd gift to a herald might be worthwhile as a means of screening out some of the less useful gifts so that your greater daemon or whatever is more likely to get the ones you want. Certainly an expensive solution, but if you take a herald with two lesser gifts, and a GD with two of them as well, you improve the chances of getting one particular gift quite significantly (and if you roll it with the herald you can always swap it for a magic weapon...)

bigbiggles
20-03-2013, 05:28
The demonic weapons on page 62 ( the 0 choices for lesser and exalted) are indeed one per army. Don't know about the actual roll choices though. So far I have played them as if they could be duplicated on multiple models.

Kalandros
20-03-2013, 09:52
None of the rolled gifts (aside from the default zero choices) are classified as items in any way, Kalandros. They are statline boosts.
Read the rules again. ANY gift that has no category is an Enchanted Item. Simple and to the point. There is no conflict in that specific part of the rules.
The re-roll duplicate part is confusing and probably badly worded by mr Ward as most of this sad excuse of an army book.

Matt Ward is more fickle than Tzeentch.

Phazael
20-03-2013, 14:59
Or your easter egg hunting. Both are equally likely. In either case, we won't know for certain until the FAQ hits and it won't ultimately matter either way since no one is going to take overpriced gift rolls on heralds if they know what they are doing.

But consider the side consequence of your interpretation of these rules. Lets say I want to make sure my Keeper has innate ASF or MW(2). By your interpretation, I can nearly guarentee this by spamming a couple low end heralds and rolling their gifts first to take the pointless results, since you reroll duplicates (unless you want to argue that reroll on the same daemon does not mean reroll dupes on a different daemon, which is silly and a whole other can of worms) taking default if the one I want comes up. Tada! I can now have my Eternal Blade Keeper with ASF/MW2 every time. I really am pretty certain that this is not the intention, nor would anyone want that to be the case.

DaemonReign
20-03-2013, 15:53
Tada! I can now have my Eternal Blade Keeper with ASF/MW2 every time. I really am pretty certain that this is not the intention, nor would anyone want that to be the case.

Well to be fair.. and just musing over here.. Playing the devil's advocate (daemon's advocate I suppose) playing it like you describe feels kind of 'righteous' given the circumstances. :p
[This is NOT an inlay to this rules-discussion.. I just couldn't restrain myself. Again. Apologies all around.]

Kalandros
20-03-2013, 17:12
Go ahead if you want to spam heralds and lose the game because you have almost 50% pts spent on characters and no army to back it up - heralds are terrible.

Phazael
20-03-2013, 17:36
Well, if you are going the Slaanesh route with Grace heralds, another 25 point gift on a couple of them is hardly going to break the bank. One less unit of furies is an acceptable trade for having the exact gift I want on my GD, especially if the heralds are getting a tiny boost in the bargain and the heralds themselves can double as chaffe. I agree that as a general rule heralds are terrible, but some early builds already involve spamming L1 shadow/slaanesh lore girls to get certain spells and this is just doubling down on the tactic for a modest amount of added points. I seriously doubt this is how it will be faqed, because it is honestly more powerful than simply putting people at the total mercy of the dice, like the way I feel it is intended. But hey, if your easter egg hunt bears fruit and I can get the better stuff on my GD I am down with that too, but I really do not think the intent was to make it easier to get certain gifts.

yeknoMehT
20-03-2013, 18:01
Well, if you are going the Slaanesh route with Grace heralds, another 25 point gift on a couple of them is hardly going to break the bank. One less unit of furies is an acceptable trade for having the exact gift I want on my GD, especially if the heralds are getting a tiny boost in the bargain and the heralds themselves can double as chaffe. I agree that as a general rule heralds are terrible, but some early builds already involve spamming L1 shadow/slaanesh lore girls to get certain spells and this is just doubling down on the tactic for a modest amount of added points. I seriously doubt this is how it will be faqed, because it is honestly more powerful than simply putting people at the total mercy of the dice, like the way I feel it is intended. But hey, if your easter egg hunt bears fruit and I can get the better stuff on my GD I am down with that too, but I really do not think the intent was to make it easier to get certain gifts.

Exactly, couldn't agree more that it should be that way.

I was only pointing out that it was an option - if it's FAQed one way you can have the same gift on multiple dudes (unlikely to occur though in any given game), the other way the odd herald you might be taking anyway can serve an additional purpose in boosting the likelihood your GD or whatever gets what you want (exactly the same as taking level 1/2 wizards and rolling their spells first to make sure you get the spells you actually want on your level 4). I won't be bursting into tears whichever way it gets FAQed - assuming they don't just ignore it... :(

Kalandros
20-03-2013, 18:40
What an arrogant attitude. Obviously your opinion should be the only one that is correct, hmm? There's just no way my understanding of whats written is the correct way because obviously you have branded anything I say as an "easter egg hunt".
You must be working for Cadbury.

There's no need for a FAQ. All 4 Hellforged Artifacts have an item type and the other page are all Magic Weapons. What then is the use of classifying Gifts as Enchanted Items? And that we follow all the rules for magic items except that we can have multiple of one category?

Seriously, do you just read rules to be as you want them to be or do you just not want to understand whats written?

Phazael
20-03-2013, 19:13
I think that when there is clarrification that says the "same daemon may not have the same randomly rolled gift" there is certainly room for interpretation. And calling me arrogant is a bit of a stretch when your the one claiming to know the inner workings of the mind of Matt Ward, essentially saying what he wrote is not what he meant. Your also the one making the claim that your interpretation is indellably correct, while I am allowing for the caveat that a FAQ is likely needed to work it out, especially since your view on the rule is open to some serious abuse along the lines of people who used to twist the Eye of the Gods table to beget the Chosen Star.

The use of classifying rolled gifts as enchanted items (if we even can assume that to be the case, and not another Matt Ward meant something else moment) serves a purpose of making them interact with things like the World Dragon banner, Vauls Unmaking, The Hex Scroll, and similar effects that interact with opposing magic items. It also matters in the context of things like Van Horstmens speculum or the Changelings ability, as the gifts are not a part of the base stat of the model. Its also a big deal because Kairos can no loner use his rerolls when using Tranformation of Kadon, because those are classified as gifts. So, there are reasons for making such a distinction even if they are not immediately obvious.

But as I said, you could well be correct in your interpretation. Instead of digging for things that are not there and are counter intuitive, why not wait for the FAQ to settle the matter? I see this as at least equally ambiguous as the Reign of Chaos table affecting the opponent, even though the intent seems fairly obvious. Or you could just continue to flame me for making a reasoned out counter viewpoint if thats what floats your boat.

DaemonReign
20-03-2013, 20:33
p. 61 2nd para 2nd sentence:
"Each gift can only be taken once per model; re-roll any duplicate results for a single model until a different gift is rolled."
- So this tells us, obviously, that Daemonic Gifts (results 1-6 on the chart, not the default choices!) can be duplicated on two different Daemons in the same army. Otherwise it should/must have read "once per army" and not (as is the case) "once per model".
However, just a few lines down we also read:

p. 61 3rd para last sentence:
"Daemonic Gifts otherwise follow the rules for magic items (specifically, Enchaned Items, unless otherwise stated) with the exception that a Daemon can carry more than one item of each type."
- So here, obviously, we have a glaring contradiction since one of the key features of Enchaned Items is the pristine fact of them being 'unique' (as indeed all other Magic Items) - so when Ward stipulates that the [only] exception is the ability to have more than one item of the 'same type' this statement is totally opposed to the implicit (but oh-so-clear!) meaning of the first sentence I listed.

Bloopers like this is all over this poorly written, badly thought-through, unseriously costed joke of an Army Book. While 'RAI' is gleaned simply enough [Duplication on different characters is most likely the intent!] we're still talking about a contradiction that leaves us in limbo with regards to 'bona-fide' 'RAW'.
Exactly like the case of Reign of Chaos effecting "All enemy units".

Let's not insult each other and get all worked up about this. This book is a cruel joke on all of us and infected debates over the incompetent wording of rules-mechanics that shouldn't have seen the light of day in the first Place should simply be beneath us.

... [I]"Due to the fickle nature of the Chaos Gods, you can't purchase specific Gifts - their patronage is withdrawn or altered in a heartbeat..."

YOU should be that heartbeat. Not some tacky chart.

Piercefierce
20-03-2013, 23:44
Good call. We should be the heartbeat not the stupid charts. Well said Daemonreign. This book was so poorly written it makes me laugh.

Powerposey
23-03-2013, 17:33
This topic brings up a related question I have been wondering about. Can a herald bsb have a magic standard and a magic weapon chosen during the gift roll?

Edit-I just found out you can't, please ignore.

DaemonReign
23-03-2013, 19:41
p. 89 (Battle Standard Bearer info-box bottom left corner of page)
"If he carries a magic standard he may not choose Daemonic Gifts."

ArtificerArmour
26-03-2013, 12:59
If you buy a magic banner you have to spend 25points and roll for it randomly out of the rule book.


what?

*grumble grumble*