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Lester
19-03-2013, 19:21
The Necrontyr where a humanoid race. But I don't recall reading if they reproduced sexually (like humans or eldar) or asexually (orks). If they do, are there any known Necrons who are female? Yeah, the whole Metal Undead bodies kinda blurs the lines but I think some Tomb World should have a Necron Lady leading it.

Lord Damocles
19-03-2013, 19:36
The Lord from Xenology mentions female Necron[tyr]:

'UNKNOWN: Dear Sasham, it's taken me a century to insinuate my way into your inquisition. There are few of my kind capable. Most are mindless, pure, undistracted by personality. But there are those of us who remember. lords and ladies of another age, converted and purified, but not cleansed of memory. I remember the frailty of emotion, the weakness of flesh, the imperfection of mortality.'

Xenology, second page of Lord/Sasham dialogue (my emphasis)

-------

I always imagine(d) my Lord as being female; although you'd never know looking at the model.

MarshalFaust
19-03-2013, 20:20
presumably nearly half were females but typically skeletons lack mammaries so they would look nearly identical.

Charax
19-03-2013, 21:06
We already know Necrons with a degree of autonomy can choose or alter their bodies (otherwise destroyers wouldn't exist) and their adherence to a bipedal humanoid form is essentially sentimentality. There's little reason a formerly-female Necrontyr wouldn't choose a female chassis

MarshalFaust
19-03-2013, 22:06
so how would a female Necrontyr skeleton chassis differ from a male skeleton chassis?

Xisor
19-03-2013, 22:30
Immortal/Warrior?

Edit: This was supposed to be an off-the-cuff assertion, but if the genders were inherently unequal/surprisingly distinct, this kinda thinking has some, slightly spurious merit to it.

Lord Damocles
19-03-2013, 22:37
so how would a female Necrontyr skeleton chassis differ from a male skeleton chassis?
They needn't necessarily be skeletons.

They could theoretically be anything - Pariahs were/are more muscular, for example; and the Overlord from Hellforged... well, god knows what was going on there...

Charax
19-03-2013, 23:18
so how would a female Necrontyr skeleton chassis differ from a male skeleton chassis?

You have completely missed the point, the point being that the chassis doesn't need to be anything even remotely similar to their former physical form. it doesn't HAVE to be a skeleton, it doesn't HAVE to be male - hell, unless you believe Szeras was the only one of the living Necrontyr with spider-legs in life we already have a physical example of a situation where a necron's body doesn't match the "Humanoid male skeleton" archetype. A Necron that was formerly female could modify her chassis to have mammeries if they wanted, for no reason other than wanting to - now that the Necrons have a bit more personality than before, they're subject to things like whims and impulses.

Besides which, female and make skeletons do differ, in basically any species that actually has genders, so even if for some reason Necrons did have to be skeletons (which they demonstrably do not) they needn't always be male ones

insectum7
20-03-2013, 05:09
I had always assumed that they took the form of their gods and the universally acknowledged symbols of death, rather than being mere representations of their own bodies, which may have been twisted and malformed from their suns radiation.

As a side note, have you ever stood a Necron Warrior upright, in stead of it's stooped position. Those things are tall!

Weazel
20-03-2013, 06:05
First off, why do you suppose Necrontyr females even have "mammaries"? They were humanoid yes, but I don't picture being a humanoid means you have to be a mammal as well. Could be the sexes are more or less identical or even hermaphroditic. There are several examples on earth where the females are actually physically dominant compared to males. So sticking to the stereotype where the female sex is smaller and weaker has tits'n'ass is kind of the wrong starting point to this discussion. That said, GW is pretty strict in not mentioning any naughty parts in their fluff, so it's mostly just speculation anyway.

Also as pointed above a few times, the Necron chassis is probably not a direct representation of the Necrontyr physical form.

Hendarion
20-03-2013, 08:05
Actually humanoid-looking Necron bodies are neither male, nor female. We assume them to look male, because they lack female secondary reproduction organs (aka "boobs"). On the other hand we could very well say they look female, because they don't have any primary (!stronger emphasize than secondary!) male reproduction organs.
Even if there had been female Necrontyr - and it seams there had been - there is no need for any robot to add any primary or secondary reproductive organ shapes except for sentimentality.

MvS
20-03-2013, 09:32
I always imagined that the Necrons took on a form that they knew would unnerve their main enemies - two-legged humanoids like the Eldar. So they essentially chose to look like walking humanoid 'skeletons' to signify "we are your death and our ascendence is just as inevitable", although this shape didn't necessarily have a bearing on how they looked before.

As for female Necrontyr, if the concept is even relevant there's no reason that they would have to look anything like human females. As others have said, they could have been a hermaphrodisic species, or more like insects, reptiles, amphibians, you name it really.

Polaria
20-03-2013, 09:47
We already know Necrons with a degree of autonomy can choose or alter their bodies (otherwise destroyers wouldn't exist) and their adherence to a bipedal humanoid form is essentially sentimentality. There's little reason a formerly-female Necrontyr wouldn't choose a female chassis


Immortal/Warrior?

Edit: This was supposed to be an off-the-cuff assertion, but if the genders were inherently unequal/surprisingly distinct, this kinda thinking has some, slightly spurious merit to it.


They needn't necessarily be skeletons.

They could theoretically be anything - Pariahs were/are more muscular, for example; and the Overlord from Hellforged... well, god knows what was going on there...

A few points I've gathered along the way of the Necrontyr/Necrons:

Pariahs, while cool, are really not a good comparison as they were originally made of humans and their chassis differed because it could not reconstruct itself.

In Fall of Damnos when presenting the Necrons from their own POV some Necrons did not 'see' their chassis at all but saw themselves like they had been when alive. Thus their actual physical chassis might be something else than how the other Necrons see them.

There are, modelswise, four types of chassises but no information on if one (or more) match the original Necrontyr physiology in any way:

Type #1: Warriors and Flayed Ones have tall but 'lightly' built chassis with 'human-like' spine.
Type #2: Lords, Lychguard, Immortals and Deathmarks have tall, heavily built chassis with pronounced spine.
Type #3 (or 1b?): Crypteks have chassis similar to Type #1 but with tail and backplate.
Type #4 (or 2b?): Praetorians have chassis similar to Type #2 but with tail.

BooTMGSG
20-03-2013, 09:53
It could also depend on Necrontyr women's place in society. Perhaps the Necrons Lords plonked them along with all the unimportant people in the Warrior body. At that point they wouldn't care what they looked like.

The same might be said about the other models, once you've lost your body you can get a bit meh about the various bumpy bits. The Necron Lords certainly haven't gone into reconstructive engineering (at least I hope not).
Alternatively there is the Zandrekh robot delusion, perhaps every time they look in the mirror they see perfection.

Ether way they all look the same to me

The bearded one
20-03-2013, 10:21
Considering there are various xenos species (most prominently Eldar, though Tau are quite similar too apart from their legs and facial features) who strongly resemble human anatomy I don't find it that far off to think the Necrontyr looked very similar to humans as well, with maybe some slightly differently arranged facial features (the necron skeletal heads don't resemble human skeletal heads in their proportions after all, though the limbs and ribcages are comparable, and they even have shoulderblades).

The image I always had in my head of the old necrontyr fluff was of regular humans, but looking somewhat sickly and wasted due to their sun's radiation. Sunken cheeks and hollow eyes and all that.

copper.talos
20-03-2013, 11:07
Why should necron males and female have different bodies? Is it a given? Maybe they were distinguished by eye colour, skin patterns, scent etc. Feminine silluetes are not obligatory to all females in the galaxy...

Xisor
20-03-2013, 14:21
female secondary reproduction organs (aka "boobs")

Good luck reproducing*. ;)

---

To add the Tau into the mix of analogies, we also have five radically different 'forms' of Tau, too. Structurally, their stylised(?) skeletal impressions might be more than simply stretches or squashes of others. Similarly, the skeleton of an Adeptus Astartes and a joe-human will be spectacularly distinct - it could be that the 'type 2' Necrons (as Polaria delineates) are much more akin to 'genetically enhanced super-Necrontyr' rather than base-line Necrons. Or it could be something less simple like Type 1 is male, Type 2 is female: Crypteks and Aristocracy had freedom to 'move between genders'. Or more complex. Or less complex.

We know, from Xenology, about the Lords & Ladies, but we don't know much else. I often wonder, without definite conclusion, which solution or explanation would be the more interesting account of their history. For example, whilst I do admire what MvS presents, I also find a it a bit... petty, a bit overly concerned with the impression they're making rather than their capacity to do something. A bit vain, if you will. But then that's just an initial reaction - a development (even just a paragraph on morphology) accounting the same thing could be more than sufficient to add depth and detail to the same idea, without vanity. (By contrast, you could do the opposite: add depth and detail, but ramp up their grandiosity and melodramatic bee-bonnets to keep pace with the tone given to the characters in Codex!)

Again, there's an element of indecision and known-unknown that I don't find as fascinating as I do in other spheres (e.g. the true origins of the Navigators, why the Primarchs disappeared); mainly because I think/hope that there's a good and optimum explanation in terms of theme and aptness.

Hmmm.

* I know, I know: you said 'secondary'.

MvS
20-03-2013, 14:52
whilst I do admire what MvS presents, I also find a it a bit... petty, a bit overly concerned with the impression they're making rather than their capacity to do something. A bit vain, if you will. But then that's just an initial reaction

I may be (and often am) wrong, but I seem to remember some sort of reference to the Necrontyr taking on their new forms to deliberatley signify death (or somesuch) to their enemies. I'll have to try to dig it out as a reference.

In my hazy recollection it didn't necessarily imply that the Necrontyr weren't humanoids, I suppose, just that they wanted to represent death or mortality, implying that they had become a rather maudlin and nihilistic culture, defining themselves more by their antipathy to the Old Ones' children than by any of their own cultural achievements.

As you suggest though, it seems rather... melodramatic I suppose. But then nihilistic melodrama isn't really unique to any civilisation in the 40K setting.

Rogue Star
20-03-2013, 15:16
I may be (and often am) wrong, but I seem to remember some sort of reference to the Necrontyr taking on their new forms to deliberatley signify death (or somesuch) to their enemies. I'll have to try to dig it out as a reference.

I believe it was from Deus Ex Mechanicus. Possibly also the Necron's Design notes, I will have a dig around myself.

Necron Designer Notes:


Out Of The Tomb It Crept

Andy Chambers: The contrast between the Necrons and the Tau couldn't have been greater. The Tau, a young dynamic race with a kind of optimism, which is frankly out of place in the Warhammer 40,000 universe. The Necrons; ancient beyond belief, the unquiet vestige of a long-forgotten race which ruled the galaxy when mankind still thought bashing rocks together was a really smart idea. For the Tau we had emphasised the near-future feel of their technology and outlook to give them a distinct feel. With the Necrons we considered the same things. They were evidently unthinkably old, inhumanly patient and their technology could achieve miracles unapproachable even by the Eldar. Their background as raiders had included various dark hints about their motivations and origins but nothing concrete was known.

I tried writing a short story, Deus Ex Mechanicus, centring around an Adeptus Mechanicus explorator team investigating Necron tombs. As part of this I hit on an idea of why the Necrons looked the way they did - the death mask face and skeletal bodies would give a clear message to any race:

The foe was terrible to see, their shining metal skulls and skeletons too symbolic to be missed. HERE IS DEATH, they had been built to communicate, in any language, across any gulf of time and to any race.

That was not the worst of them. These harbingers seemed to live in a horrible sense. Each was a mechanism to be sure, but one with a fierce anime, like the idol of some ferocious, primitive god.

Not only were they death, but they manifest a horrible sense of passion, even joy in their work.

As is often the way, this helped trigger something in Jes Goodwin's brain and he started work on concept sketches for a new look, sleeker Necron warrior which looked like it was forged by aliens to scare the life out of people. He also came up with the idea of using tinted crystal plastic rods as power sources in their weapons, something which has become a great little feature of the new miniatures and their larger construct, the Monolith.

Of course, back then they were very focused death machines, where as now they're more like Stargate Goa'uld.

Megad00mer
20-03-2013, 15:22
It wouldn't surprise me if there are Lords and Overlords who identify themselves as female. I think it's just something that hasn't been touched on yet. I'd bet that the next Necron Codex sees a female Necron Character, probably with a more "feminine" shape. Along the lines of Queen Khalida in Fantasy.

Xisor
20-03-2013, 15:49
MvS & Rogue Star - I think even on the AndyC face of it, it's a pretty fair assumption that you (MvS) assert. And that's more or less regardless of whether it's factual (or not!). (It might be one of those ones we've almost all come away with thinking as slightly more strongly than is evinced in the texts - like Necron FTL.)

With regards to the plausibility of it, I suppose it's not so much that I disagree fundamentally with it, but that I want to peer more closely at the origins and evolution of it. Are all of the galaxy's Necrons looking alike? Or are we falling into a bit of a pitfall where, perhaps unspoken/unwritten in the Design Studio, there's a bit more variety to them (think Cadian/Catachan themed 'bodies'). Or is it an indication of their cultural, post-death homogeneity? It could certainly be a highly ritualised, divine-inspired thing. Or perhaps a weirdly specific bit of fashion that just managed to catch on (seriously, how many folks don't ever wear jeans?).

Narratively, I think there's a fine line to tread. Too bald/generalised and it'll feel silly, too specific and it'll quickly feel trite. But then I'd instinctively worry "Where do I draw the line!?"... my only, life-long solution is to keep digging. The hole can't go on forever... :p

(For example: the assertion presented last Codex that the Nightbringer was the reason why races throughout the galaxy 'fear the Reaper', why it is inextricably linked with the concept of death. Whilst on the face of it, there's a pleasing elegance to such a solution, but on thinking about it very few folks seem to seriously enjoy or respect the notion.)

baphomael
20-03-2013, 15:54
Yea as noted necron forms are skeletal to represent death. They were the footsoldiers of thr ctan so, presumably, their forms were dictated by the ctan. Maybe the ctan didnt care about gender distinctions - generic skeletal body is a good enough message.

Nowerdays I suppose a sentimental necron lady might want to modify her form to look more feminine, but we dont know what physical distinctions necrontyr gender displayed or even how much emphasis the necrontyr society placed on gender roles.

I always wonder, though, what necrontyr originally looked like. That'll likely remain a mystery.

totgeboren
20-03-2013, 16:04
Actually humanoid-looking Necron bodies are neither male, nor female. We assume them to look male, because they lack female secondary reproduction organs (aka "boobs"). On the other hand we could very well say they look female, because they don't have any primary (!stronger emphasize than secondary!) male reproduction organs.
Even if there had been female Necrontyr - and it seams there had been - there is no need for any robot to add any primary or secondary reproductive organ shapes except for sentimentality.

Well if I was turned into an immortal death-dealing robot, I would definitely attach a huge male reproductive organ to my metal form... eh? Maybe not...

Really, I prefer Necrons to be sexless, as they would most likely not have any sex-drive anyway. I am not a fan of the scifi trope where the women of all aliens must look like really sexy human women with some odd bits attached so they look like aliens either. If there were Necrons with boobs, that would by extension mean that all other necron models are males, which makes little sense, if most of the specie got turned into robots. It doesn't make much sense for necron women to stay at home during war if they are all killer robots.

Must there be alien robots from aeons ago with tits'n'ass? Why would they be designed that way? For humans there are some fairly good reasons to look sexually appealing, even if you are not going to try and procreate with everyone. Your status in society is still affected. But would a Necron with boobs be in a better situation in a conflict with other Necrons than one with no boobs?

And also, the 'boobiness' of human women is somewhat of an odd one out. Even if Necrons were approximately mammalian, mammalian females as a rule do not have swollen mammary glands unless when feeding young. Humans are the exception, so it makes even less sense for Necron women to have boobs.

Rogue Star
20-03-2013, 17:00
Must there be alien robots from aeons ago with tits'n'ass? Why would they be designed that way? For humans there are some fairly good reasons to look sexually appealing, even if you are not going to try and procreate with everyone. Your status in society is still affected. But would a Necron with boobs be in a better situation in a conflict with other Necrons than one with no boobs?

Because some where out there is a technorganic avatar of death, infected with the Flayer Virus, that knows if she can just get enough flesh and funny bumps, she will once again be the prettiest Necrontyr Lady in all the Dynasties. :p

Azulthar
21-03-2013, 11:48
The boring answer is no thought is probably given to why there are only male forms (if indeed they are male). Very few (any?) female models in the Imperial Guard, and all that.

So maybe there are more forms out there than the ones we've seen...or maybe there's a reason for Necrons sticking to the forms they have. I got the impression that Necrons were kind of reluctant about changing their bodies, perhaps because only the crazy ones seem to do it. There certainly is some element of "body horror" there, at least.


Edit: Got it from the Destroyer entry, it seems:

"...and because its physical form is all that now echoes the living, breathing, soulful creature it once was, it will under no circumstance tolerate further dilution or corruption of that physical form."
Of course, adding boy/girl parts wouldn't necessarily constitute 'corruption', but still...not too eager to modify.

Edit 2: Also, of course, there's the fear of the Flayer disease. Giving in to the urge of adding some 'mortal' bits to your form might be the first step down a spiral of endless degeneration.

Polaria
21-03-2013, 11:59
In the light of the Destroyer quote above: Whats with the tails? Why only Praetoreans and Crypteks have them?

Azulthar
21-03-2013, 12:04
In the light of the Destroyer quote above: Whats with the tails? Why only Praetoreans and Crypteks have them?
Based on the traditional clothing they wore at the time?

I always imagined the Necrontyr to have a pretty strong hand in the design of their new bodies, as I just can't imagine the C'tan bothering with all the ornaments :p

ntw3001
21-03-2013, 17:09
As for female Necrontyr, if the concept is even relevant there's no reason that they would have to look anything like human females.

Maybe female Necrons looked like Destroyers. Or Immortals. Or uh monoliths?

cornonthecob
21-03-2013, 18:28
The term 'Lords and Ladies' made me think.

What if it's merely based on rank ?

Ie : Mindless soldiers - basic form of a necron warrior
Less mindless - Immortal
All the way up to fully sentient wherein one is allowed the choice of how your appearance is seen.

MarshalFaust
21-03-2013, 21:49
Maybe female Necrons looked like Destroyers. Or Immortals. Or uh monoliths?

I shall now only ever refer to my monolith as "Her Grace" and the warriors she brings forth as her children.

Haskear
21-03-2013, 22:40
It would be interesting to know what they looked like before being turned to metal

Sekhmet
22-03-2013, 04:04
How do you know that some of the Necron special characters weren't female in the past? I mean they're all referred to as "he" now, but it doesn't matter now as they don't have any biological parts to make a difference.

Also:
<--

Polaria
22-03-2013, 13:44
Lets pretend for a moment that GW is all about selling models. If that is so, then why don't they do a model like this:

http://www.deviantart.com/download/265603020/necron_heirarch_by_methiston-d4e4slo.jpg

Yes, the metal mammaries make absolutely no sense, but it still looks cool. I'd buy one.

LukeSept
06-04-2016, 14:58
There are female necrons in warhammer lore.
Phaeron is the title for male Necrons, Phaerkhis the title for female Necrons for example one of notable Necrons Overlords: Xun'bakyr - Phaerakh of the Maynarkh Dynasty; Mother of Oblivion

Rogue Star
06-04-2016, 15:50
There are female necrons in warhammer lore.
Phaeron is the title for male Necrons, Phaerkhis the title for female Necrons for example one of notable Necrons Overlords: Xun'bakyr - Phaerakh of the Maynarkh Dynasty; Mother of Oblivion



Yes, but we didn't have that information back in the dark ages of 2013. ;)

Lord Damocles
06-04-2016, 18:25
Phaeron is the title for male Necrons, Phaerakh is the title for female Necrons
Is it?

We know that there is variation in Necron[tyr] titles. I see no reason to assume that just because Xun'bakyr is female, her title must necessarily be a feminine variation; especially since she's the only example of the title currently.

'Highest of the Necron nobels are the Phaerons... / Beneath these are the Overlords... / Lower still are the Lords... / So deeply are these titles mired in tradition that they are universally constant*. However the titles of subordinate nobels and functionaries... / are subject to almost infinite variety.

Gravs, vymarks, and thantars are but a few of the titles given to lesser tier nobles; almost identical in terms of rank and responsibility, the only real difference arises from which dynasty the individual hails from.'

Codex: Necrons (5th ed.), pg.11

*Which clearly isn't true, since Xun'bakyr is Phaerakh not Phaeron.

Lord_Crull
06-04-2016, 20:16
The novella Devourer features a female Cryptek as one of the main characters.

Imperial Armour has a female Necron be the leader of the Dynasty, though Imperial Armor has been known to take liberties with the lore at times. Xenology has mentioned female Necrons, although that due has taken liberty with the lore in the past.

Still I would say that there probably was female Necrons, although at this point the difference is probably almost meaningless between the males and females, due to going into robot bodies. Certainly any gender identity would be a matter of personal choice then. Although I would not be surprised if the Necrons where like the Tau in that they had very minor gender metamorphism.



Of course, back then they were very focused death machines, where as now they're more like Stargate Goa'uld.

Yeah, that short story was from Deus Ex Mechanicus. At least originally the Necron's forms seemed to be a form of terror weapon. There was very much the sense of impending horror in the Oldcrons that I find to be lacking in the Newcrons. It's actually pretty interesting reading the short story and Andy Chambers's original conception of the Oldcron lore and the C'tan.

At least with the Newcrons it seems that they where indeed a sort of reflection of their old flesh bodies, or at least that's the implication of the new Destroyer lore.

flyingthruwater01
06-04-2016, 21:37
Personally I feel that the Newcron fluff gives them way too much "humanity". I loved the old theme of death dealing automatons with a real sense of gothic horror mixed in. The endless riddles and mysteries were intriguing to me. Now they seem to be filling in the blanks just for the sake of it and killing the old character of the army for me.

On topic, I think that while there was surely female Necrons back when they were a biological race any notion of gender would have disappeared when they ceased being biological creatures.

Sent from my 4027X using Tapatalk

nagash66
09-04-2016, 10:22
On topic, I think that while there was surely female Necrons back when they were a biological race any notion of gender would have disappeared when they ceased being biological creatures.

Sent from my 4027X using Tapatalk
Since the nobility retained their sense of self and their memories it would be very hard to simple handwave away such a massive part of what makes a individual themselves.

Denny
11-04-2016, 10:58
Since the nobility retained their sense of self and their memories it would be very hard to simple handwave away such a massive part of what makes a individual themselves.

Equally though we have no evidence to indicate how much emphasis the Necrontyr put on gender. Gender might be as important in terms of their identity as eye colour.

When an Eldar soul is incarcerated into a Wraithguard/Wrathlord their form is kept androgynous, presumably because trifling issues such as gender no longer matter to the occupant.
Perhaps the Necrons are similar.

Lord Damocles
11-04-2016, 13:57
Perhaps the Necrons are similar.
The first instance of female Necrons being referenced was by a Necron (Xenology), so clearly the distinction does still exist for them, and is considered important enough to mention lords and ladies as separate.

The (female!) Lychguard, Shaudukar, from Devourer refers to Valnyr, the (female!) High Cryptek of Kehlrantyr, as ''My mistress'' (pg.19).