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Rated_lexxx
20-03-2013, 16:20
I know the ally table was decided entirely by fluff so I was confused why DE can't ally with BA or DA. They can ally with SM

I get why the can't with crons, but don't know why fluff wise they can't

Any insight?

duffybear1988
20-03-2013, 16:45
I know the ally table was decided entirely by fluff so I was confused why DE can't ally with BA or DA. They can ally with SM

I get why the can't with crons, but don't know why fluff wise they can't

Any insight?

Because GW games designers are stupid?

To be honest these days I'm straying towards the whole "throw the rulebook out the window and play what you want to play, and if nobody else likes it they can suck it up, just like I'm having to suck up on how crap 6th edition really is, but I'm stuck playing it because nobody will play older editions with me because they sucked, but were somehow perfectly fine at the time... grrrrrrrr side of things." :D

Frankly I fail to see how DE allied with DA is any different than DE allying with normal marines. You can never trust the fluff - GW change the fluff more than I change me pants! :D

The bearded one
20-03-2013, 16:52
In the endless variety of home-grown 'vanilla marine' chapters, there are bound to be some of enough of a 'ends-justify-the-means' state of mind to ally with dark eldar. BA and DA are more fixed in their tastes ;)

Theocracity
20-03-2013, 16:54
If I had to hazard a guess it'd be because BA / DA are a bit too proud / stubborn to do so. A generic marine chapter might be pragmatic enough to take advantage of a temporary alliance, but Deldar are probably a bit too far over the line for a First Founding chapter with capital-i Issues like those two.

theJ
20-03-2013, 17:02
The allies grid has been discussed a lot, buddy.
The general consensus being that it really ain't all that accurate.
Eldar and Dark Eldar make excellent examples - from the perspective of most outsiders, there is no real difference between the two.
Meanwhile, internally, the Eldar are known to "ally"(use) just about everyone else.
Dark Eldar, meanwhile, are well known to sell their services to anyone willing to accept and pay them, and while they'll probably stab you in the back before departing, up until the actual stabbing they should act pretty much flawlessly.
In the end, this should make their grid values just about identical - denied alliances with those too proud to accept help from "filthy xenos" - Black Templars and Sisters of Battle, notably, as well as Nidz, Desperate Allies with the less honourable factions out there(Chaos, Dark Angels), Battle Brothers with each other as well as, say, Space Wolves?, and Allies of Convenience with pretty much everyone else.
Is this what you see in the grid, though?
Nope.
Gets pretty close with the Craftworlders, though :)
Especially annoying to me, as someone who's styled her Dark Eldar force as mercs, tbh.

My advice would be to not think too much of it.

A.T.
20-03-2013, 17:06
I know the ally table was decided entirely by fluffIt wasn't.

Spiney Norman
20-03-2013, 17:10
I know the ally table was decided entirely by fluff so I was confused why DE can't ally with BA or DA. They can ally with SM

I get why the can't with crons, but don't know why fluff wise they can't

Any insight?

Interesting that you think the allies table is based on fluff, I thought they just drew names out of a hat to decide who could ally with who on the allies table.
There are a few lines on the allies table that fit the fluff, but I'm pretty sure that just happened by random chance, most of it is absolute rubbish.
Like Eldar/Dark Eldar being battle brothers, I mean I could have seen them being desperate allies, or even allies of convenience, but battle brothers? If they're that far into each others pants why do they still operate as separate factions at all? they're certainly not that tight in the fluff. Being able to ally Dark Angels with Orks was a similarly ludicrous decision, as was IG getting convenience with daemons. For a while I thought about getting myself a small allied contingeant of slaanesh daemons to ally with my DE just to show how fluff-bustingly idiotic that table actually is.

BA/DA not fighting with Dark Eldar was actually one of the more sane decisions in the allies table, if it had been up to me no Imperial force would have been able to ally with DE at all. But the reality is that the allies table exists to try and convince people they should buy another codex and a small force of another army to represent an allied contingeant, so of course making it as restrictive as the background indicates it should be would be bad for business.

stereynolds
20-03-2013, 18:50
I know the ally table was decided entirely by fluff so I was confused why DE can't ally with BA or DA. They can ally with SM

I get why the can't with crons, but don't know why fluff wise they can't

Any insight?


They can't ally with Crons becuause Crons and Eldar have been at war since before the Imperium existed.

A lot of the tables are strange but as people have said they allow people to collect smaller factions for different armies and use them.

The ELdar/Dark Eldar battle brothers thing is no where near as wrong as some people think it is. Eldar care about the preservation of their dying race. They both have a different way of preserving their souls but ultimately both are selfish factions that what to see their race live on. Makes perfect sense for them to be friendly with each other. Hell Dark Eldar have saved Iyaden forces before and said afterwards they did it becuase they like their cousins dabling in Necromancy. At least that was their excuse. If they hated each other so much they wouldn't have helped them. Carftworld Eldar want to preserve the race, Dark Eldar want to prove to Craftworld Eldar that their way of surviving was the right way.

Horus Lupercal
20-03-2013, 19:12
The daemons and csm being convenience with guard is there to allow you to make a lost and the damned type force.

TheDungen
20-03-2013, 20:15
well DA hates on humans so that's probably the reason, and didn't the DE attack Saguistinius when he was a child or something?

Lord Damocles
20-03-2013, 20:25
Because the allies chart is arbitrary and weird.

DeathGlam
20-03-2013, 20:35
That does seem strange, as DE are everyone's friend if it is the first time you have ever met them, still love the Urien Rakarth Tau fluff.:p

Theocracity
20-03-2013, 21:18
The first time, sure. Maybe that's why two of the chapters with the longest memories / grudges don't want to have anything to do with them ;).

A.T.
20-03-2013, 22:20
and didn't the DE attack Saguistinius when he was a child or something?Not that i'm aware of - it was Vulkan's world that was noted as being raided frequently by the DE.

Latro_
20-03-2013, 22:28
Both those chapters have pretty good fast attack options, maybe they thought it'd be a bit over the top.

jsullivanlaw
21-03-2013, 00:02
I hate the allies table. I also love the allies rule. The allies rule lets players put together some extremely fun, fluffy lists. So you want to play a conventional army dedicated to chaos as often depicted in Black Library novels? Well now you can. Put together a list of Guard and take Daemon or Chaos Marine allies to add some Chaos-y-ness to it. Crone World or Shaadom Chaos Eldar? Take Dark Eldar and add some Slaaneshy Daemons as allies. Genestealer Cult? Just take Guard and some...oh...wait...

The allies table completely fails to contemplate that someone might want to use a codex to represent something other than the army. It would have been the perfect opportunity to allow players to field Genestealer Cult legally. I don't like the different levels of allied-ness as it also fails to take into account that codexes may represent a similar non-codex force. Imperials get all sorts of battle brother and allies of convenience while the other factions have crappier rules in general when putting together their force. This imbalances the game in favor of imperial armies. Also, i think it is pretty stupid that two units could stop and leer at each other randomly while being hit with a massive artillery barrage.

The table should have just made everyone allies of convenience (battle brother rules just open things to exploitation) with the caveat that they must come up with a good fluffy reason. This would make things much more balanced across the board.

M@L@L
21-03-2013, 00:27
I'm more bothered by the Imperial Guard not being possible battle brothers with Chaos, while Space Marines are battle brothers with Tau. Yes, that's right, the xenos renowned for turning even humanity to their cause are totally bed fellows with the most pious superhumans in the Imperium. Yeah, okay, so maybe one or two marine chapters see the worth in these technologically advanced and not so bad bad guys, but would Tau really have a better chance at corrupting marines than chaos corrupting the guard..? Please.

Axeman1n
21-03-2013, 00:40
The table has to last a while. It's possible the table is Entirely based on Fluff, but some of the fluff it is based on has not been published yet. DA used to have a rule where they would not ally with anyone, so I like that their ally chart is sparse. I wish it was more so.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
21-03-2013, 00:46
I know the ally table was decided entirely by fluff
Fact : this table was actually decided by throwing feces on an empty table and then looking at how much of the feces has stuck onto each box to determine alliance level. No fluff involved.

Warhammerrox
21-03-2013, 01:34
To be fair.... I can't speak for my brothers in the 9th Legion..... But as far as I'm concerned, being a devoted member of the 1st....

We don't ally with dirty filthy zenos !!!!!!!!!!!

(ignore the midget alien carrying Azrael's helm... move along, nothing to see here... lol..)

Drasanil
21-03-2013, 01:50
(ignore the midget alien carrying Azrael's helm... move along, nothing to see here... lol..)

They're not xenos. Just as Nurgle has Nurglings, the Emperor has Emplings! We just call them watchers, because the Emperor watches us all! Why don't other chapters have them? Clearly they're not as loyal or worthy as us! Did you know even the Ultramarines have a brother or two that break their oaths every millenia? :D

M@L@L
21-03-2013, 01:54
I forget the origin of the Watchers, but weren't they some sort of warp entity? If not, probably a mysterious abhuman and an excuse to throw Jawas into 40k.

JWhex
21-03-2013, 04:50
In respect to the fluff, the ally matrix is an abomination.

Haunter!
21-03-2013, 05:32
It's a matter of game balance mostly. Fluff has little to do with most of the allies chart, but it is not entirely "unfluffy". The chart is there to show the extremes of how factions and military groups work together.

Remember, 40k is a universe of extremes.

Basileus66
21-03-2013, 08:21
It's not that bad, guys... at least from a Chaos player perspective. You can ally with Demons (logical), Dark Eldar (well, nothing too unusual fluff-wise), Imperial Guard (Blood Pact, anyone?) Orks (that's more far-fetched, but still within logic) Tau (here, I have more troubles to accept it, even if you can rationalize it because of Tau's utilitarianism... well, may be some Red Corsairs would ally with Tau, or with certain Tau factions) and 'Crons (acceptable to a point, though why anyone would replace perfectly good 'Crons options for CSM is beyond me)

TheDungen
21-03-2013, 08:36
i wouldnt have made any combinations impossible but i would have had the lowest tier count like two separate armies with some sort of pentantly for fighting alongside each other (not animosity). Maybe those eldar are being mindcontrolled by necrons using the scar thingies, maybe those marines and chaos marines are a renegade chapter that recently fell. or genestealer cults or anything of the sort.

yabbadabba
21-03-2013, 08:41
As you can see, asking a question like this on Warseer as productive as peeing on a volcano to stop it from erupting.

TBO got it spot on.

A.T.
21-03-2013, 10:43
It's a matter of game balance mostly.Agreed - Templars allied to Sisters would create some kind of unholy god-tier army, got to put a stop to that.

The allies matrix was actually copied directly from an earlier doubles tournament ruleset (you can find it in the 2012 doubles pdf on the games workshop site for instance) - makes me wonder if it was the drunken scribbling of Adam Snook, the tournament was set to be run in the Bugman's Bar room...

Mauler
21-03-2013, 15:25
well DA hates on humans so that's probably the reason, and didn't the DE attack Saguistinius when he was a child or something?

Ehh?? Where are you getting both of those facts? The Dark Angels recruit from humans like any other Astartes chapter with no animosity towards them at all and I've never read anything that states otherwise. As for the Dark Eldar attacking Baal, again, never heard that before.

PS - 'hates' is a verb, the correct use is "The DA hate humans...", sorry to be picky :'(

TheDungen
21-03-2013, 16:13
sorry, its supposed to be 'hate non humans' of course. and i obviously mixed up saguisinius with vulcan (But it does seem right wasnt there some other primarch who fought eldar pirates? someone who was wandering in a wasteland or something, maybe angron?)

Sephillion
21-03-2013, 16:35
I think, for the most part, Battle Brothers make sense. The rest of allies possibilities include some weird combos, but generic armies like IG and Space Marines are vast and are very much open to player’s imagination (like a SM chapter who doesn’t completely and absolutely hate xenos). And these alliances are supposed to be temporary. In that sense, it’s surprising there aren’t more possible alliances. I don’t think we’re supposed to find a reason why such and such ally themselves, we’re supposed to find a reason why, for this battle, they choose to help each other... before going their separate ways or coming to blows. It’s actually much better than what I had anticipated!

Necrons and Eldars fight for control over the Webway, if memory serves.

And Eldar and Dark Eldar make some kind of sense. Eldars are dying, and PAth of the Renegade showed that, while Yllithian considered his Craftworld cousins inferior, he valued Eldar life and culture much more than anyone else’s. Also, they are still part of the same race, and are tied by Harlequins (who seem to have their own agenda – don’t recall correctly, I haven’t read DE codex fluff in a while).

Tinsil
21-03-2013, 16:44
The ally matrix is a giant pile of crap.

There's no good reason why DE have the second worst matrix behind Tyranids, for an army that is supposed to be part mercenary/pirate. I'd love to hear them explain why the allies matrix is the way it is. It's terrible, but it's the way it is and nothing is going to change until 7th edition, which is just fantastic.

Mauler
21-03-2013, 16:45
sorry, its supposed to be 'hate non humans' of course. and i obviously mixed up saguisinius with vulcan (But it does seem right wasnt there some other primarch who fought eldar pirates? someone who was wandering in a wasteland or something, maybe angron?)

Ahhhhh, it all makes sense now although I think that anti-xenoism is pretty equal across all Marine chapters? And yes, that was Vulkan and the Dark Eldar made a habit of raiding Nocturne, much to their cost. :)

Fingers
21-03-2013, 17:46
the allies matrix exists souly to give a boost to marines by letting them be bb with each other and guard. i hate how chaos is screwed over in it, despite being bb with daemons, marines and daemons cant join each other's units at all. useless.

Rated_lexxx
21-03-2013, 18:46
Well here is the problem, DE can ally with BT, GK, SW but not DA or BA so I assume there has to be some fluff some where why they can't

stereynolds
21-03-2013, 18:52
Well here is the problem, DE can ally with BT, GK, SW but not DA or BA so I assume there has to be some fluff some where why they can't

But the Space Wolves crashed a battle barge into Commargh didn't they?

DeathGlam
21-03-2013, 19:05
But the Space Wolves crashed a battle barge into Commargh didn't they?

That was the Salamanders i think.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
22-03-2013, 13:39
Why don't other chapters have them? Clearly they're not as loyal or worthy as us! Did you know even the Ultramarines have a brother or two that break their oaths every millenia? :D
Clearly not something that would ever happen to a dark angel. A dark angel turning traitor ? That's totally unheard of. The keyword here is unheard :P.

The chart is there to show the extremes of how factions and military groups work together.

Remember, 40k is a universe of extremes.
So even at the extreme, no space marine chapter and no sister of battle order never got along as well as tau did with space marines ?

sorry, its supposed to be 'hate non humans' of course. and i obviously mixed up saguisinius with vulcan (But it does seem right wasnt there some other primarch who fought eldar pirates? someone who was wandering in a wasteland or something, maybe angron?)
Are you going to find new and inventive ways to misspell Sanguinius every time ? Saguistinius was awesome, I'm keeping it as inspiration for new character names.

The rest of allies possibilities include some weird combos, but generic armies like IG and Space Marines are vast and are very much open to player’s imagination (like a SM chapter who doesn’t completely and absolutely hate xenos).
So you mean a generic chapter that love blue xenos is more likely than a generic chapter that loves sisters ?

Well here is the problem, DE can ally with BT, GK, SW but not DA or BA so I assume there has to be some fluff some where why they can't
Well, dark eldar don't like blue and red, but they like grey and black. Done.
If you are expecting something that actually make sense, then I have no idea, and I highly doubt anyone else has a sensible one. Including the guy that wrote the god-damned matrix, and the ones in charge of proof-reading his work.

RandomThoughts
22-03-2013, 14:41
Because the allies chart is arbitrary and weird.

PRetty much this!


I hate the allies table. I also love the allies rule. The allies rule lets players put together some extremely fun, fluffy lists. So you want to play a conventional army dedicated to chaos as often depicted in Black Library novels? Well now you can. Put together a list of Guard and take Daemon or Chaos Marine allies to add some Chaos-y-ness to it. Crone World or Shaadom Chaos Eldar? Take Dark Eldar and add some Slaaneshy Daemons as allies. Genestealer Cult? Just take Guard and some...oh...wait...

The allies table completely fails to contemplate that someone might want to use a codex to represent something other than the army. It would have been the perfect opportunity to allow players to field Genestealer Cult legally. I don't like the different levels of allied-ness as it also fails to take into account that codexes may represent a similar non-codex force. Imperials get all sorts of battle brother and allies of convenience while the other factions have crappier rules in general when putting together their force. This imbalances the game in favor of imperial armies. Also, i think it is pretty stupid that two units could stop and leer at each other randomly while being hit with a massive artillery barrage.

The table should have just made everyone allies of convenience (battle brother rules just open things to exploitation) with the caveat that they must come up with a good fluffy reason. This would make things much more balanced across the board.

I fully agree.

If I had anything to say, I would have made everyone "Allies of Convenience" with everyone else, but put in a blurb about players honoring the background. that certain factions won't normally ally with certain other factions and that players should always choose alliances based on the narrative of their game. Then leave it to the players to work out the details.


Because GW games designers are stupid?

You can't prove that!

(Not saying you're wrong, though... :D)


Fact : this table was actually decided by throwing feces on an empty table and then looking at how much of the feces has stuck onto each box to determine alliance level. No fluff involved.

Erm, sorry, but I have to disagree. From what my sources tell me, the fluff for several upcoming codices resolve heavily around throwing feces at enemies and tables and in one case a special character from the own army. I think he even got a special rule around it. I might be mixing this up with the term from Warren Ellis's "Crooked Little Vein" novel, but I believe it was ****-magnet.


So you mean a generic chapter that love blue xenos is more likely than a generic chapter that loves sisters ?

Well. Space Marines are more or less a cross between the spartians from 300 and celibate religious monks, right? Do you really find it weird that they take a greater liking to hairless green alien boys than to the nuns in their sister order?

M@L@L
22-03-2013, 15:58
Well. Space Marines are more or less a cross between the spartians from 300 and celibate religious monks, right? Do you really find it weird that they take a greater liking to hairless green alien boys than to the nuns in their sister order?

Yes. Granted, upon closer inspection, the Matrix list isn't 100% bad. I know that genestealer cult players feel gimped in not having any allies for Nid armies, but at the end of the day, the Tyranid codex is more than just stealers, and the cult would have likely been absorbed immediately upon the arrival of the fisrt ships, meaning there would be no native forces to align with. No, I can't prove that with fluff, sorry. ;p

Besides, for cult players, all we have to do is wait for that genestealer cult codex that we just know is going to be the new army for 6th edition. Right? Right..? ... Right..?

M@L@L
22-03-2013, 16:00
Well. Space Marines are more or less a cross between the spartians from 300 and celibate religious monks, right? Do you really find it weird that they take a greater liking to hairless green alien boys than to the nuns in their sister order?

Yes. Granted, upon closer inspection, the Matrix list isn't 100% bad. I know that genestealer cult players feel gimped in not having any allies for Nid armies, but at the end of the day, the Tyranid codex is more than just stealers, and the cult would have likely been absorbed immediately upon the arrival of the first wave of bugs, meaning there would be no native forces to align with. No, I can't prove that with fluff, sorry. ;p

Besides, for cult players, all we have to do is wait for that genestealer cult codex that we just know is going to be the new army for 6th edition. Right? Right..? ... Right..?

Rated_lexxx
22-03-2013, 16:05
That was the Salamanders i think.

It was the salamanders that your thinking of. It's bit more complex then just crashing it.

It was part of some archon's plot against Asdrubael. It's really interesting if you get to rid that fluff in thet DE codex

jimbo2
22-03-2013, 16:12
Well here is the problem, DE can ally with BT, GK, SW but not DA or BA so I assume there has to be some fluff some where why they can't

In the fluff the DA are the most xenos-phobic of any chapter. If memory serves in one of the past editions you couldn't include Ratlins or Ogrynns in allied guard forces for this reason.

DeathGlam
22-03-2013, 16:16
It was the salamanders that your thinking of. It's bit more complex then just crashing it.

It was part of some archon's plot against Asdrubael. It's really interesting if you get to rid that fluff in thet DE codex

Yeah it was all the plot set out by Vect to take control of Commorragh and destroy his rivals, really great bit of fluff on how the Space Marines can be used as a tool by the DE.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
22-03-2013, 16:40
Well. Space Marines are more or less a cross between the spartians from 300 and celibate religious monks, right? Do you really find it weird that they take a greater liking to hairless green alien boys than to the nuns in their sister order?
Blue. And they do have hair ;).

In the fluff the DA are the most xenos-phobic of any chapter. If memory serves in one of the past editions you couldn't include Ratlins or Ogrynns in allied guard forces for this reason.
While the black templar are, au contraire, the most xenos-loving chapter of all !

Thrax
22-03-2013, 16:57
We create our alliances based on older 40K story lines and our own personal fluff. Some of our Space marine chapters won't ally with any aliens for any reason, and some even consider the SoB as enemies as they commit blasphemy worshiping the emperor as a god. One chapter won't include servitors as they are considered an abomination to the humanistic ideal. It all adds a bit of flavor if you keep it consistent, as long as you don't take it so seriously it prevents a good game. Ideally we like to have a background narrative in place prior to the battle, not some dumb game mechanic forcing the narrative during the game.

In other words, do what's best for you and your group. If you play strangers, it's a little more complicated but most players are pretty reasonable.

TheDungen
22-03-2013, 17:53
Are you going to find new and inventive ways to misspell Sanguinius every time ? Saguistinius was awesome, I'm keeping it as inspiration for new character names.

Feel free to although i'd make some more changes to make people less likely to read it as that name i can never learn to spell. Maybe drop a u and make it Sagistinius.



Ahhhhh, it all makes sense now although I think that anti-xenoism is pretty equal across all Marine chapters? And yes, that was Vulkan and the Dark Eldar made a habit of raiding Nocturne, much to their cost. :)
Oh then i stand corrected, and for the xenophobia DA dials it up to 11 by extending the argument to orgyns and ratlings, basically all not pure breed humans... except space marines of course.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
22-03-2013, 20:21
and for the xenophobia DA dials it up to 11 by extending the argument to orgyns and ratlings, basically all not pure breed humans... except space marines of course.
And Sisters push it up to twelve by including space marines into the filthy mutants ranks :P.

TheDungen
23-03-2013, 01:20
well its at least more honest.

Starchild
23-03-2013, 05:38
Because GW games designers are stupid?

There's certainly nothing resembling consistency in the allies matrix. DA shouldn't be able to ally with any xenos whatsoever, per Codex Angels of Death. Blood Angels have been allies to the "...aloof Eldar Aspect Warriors" per White Dwarf and Codex Angels of Death backs this up too.

Honestly there's nothing remotely endearing to Dark Eldar from an Astartes perspective so I just treat the possibility of them being able to ally with Codex Space Marines as a silly mistake at best, revenue-boosting money grab at worst.

Drasanil
23-03-2013, 05:49
Honestly there's nothing remotely endearing to Dark Eldar from an Astartes perspective so I just treat the possibility of them being able to ally with Codex Space Marines as a silly mistake at best, revenue-boosting money grab at worst.

Or imperials mistaking them for regular eldar, which they seem to do on a semi-regular basis according to the BRB... in which case they should have the same allies matrix but they don't... for some reason.

LordDarkhan
23-03-2013, 06:25
Don't forget that for the Eldar and Dark Eldar "ally" is an abstraction of what we do.

My Craftworld cousins show up and help whoever their Farseer says needs help cause this one Ork boy winning THIS SPECIFIC battle against some Tau will lead to him becoming a Nob, which will lead to him starting a warband, which will lead to him (30 years later) heading a waaagh to a planet where he'll slaughter a man who would have grown Slaanesh's influence unless he's killed as a teenager.... and we can't have that. To an outside viewer, some Eldar allied with some Orks. To the Orks, dem pointy ears be shootin at dem bloo skinz. To my cousins, it's a sound investment in the fight against She Who Hungers.

My fellow True Kin are even worse. We show up when we feel like it and help whoever we want... cause it's fun. Or cause I lost a bet. Or cause we like watching you be angsty (I'm looking at you, Iyanden). Lady Malys "helped" some Orks raid an Imperial world just to steal a panacea (which we don't need as a race; she keeps it on her mantle as a keepsake). Urien Rakarth allied with the Tau, and even saved a whole planet from the Tyranid, as part of a ploy to kidnap a staggeringly large number of Tau citizens. It can even be argued that Vect was "allied" with the Salamanders during his takeover of Commoragh... in that his Dark Eldar and the Salamanders were both fighting against the prominent Dark Eldar rulers.

The point is that you can make an excuse for any alliance in the 40k universe (barring maybe Tyranid, sadly).

Phenatix
23-03-2013, 06:46
It's based on fluff? How are Eldar and Dark Eldar battle-brothers? Is that a joke?

LordDarkhan
23-03-2013, 07:01
Phenatix, fluff changed with the new Dark Eldar codex. Both sides (Craftworld and Dark) see the other as misguided, but they still have good relations. We regularly help each other when in danger, and even use the Harlequins as mediators in major quarrels.

Drasanil
23-03-2013, 07:15
It's based on fluff? How are Eldar and Dark Eldar battle-brothers? Is that a joke?

Really, this again?

Let me put it this way, the only things eldar consider to be 'people' are eldar... are both Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar eldar? If you can't figure out the rest...

Phenatix
23-03-2013, 07:39
Phenatix, fluff changed with the new Dark Eldar codex. Both sides (Craftworld and Dark) see the other as misguided, but they still have good relations. We regularly help each other when in danger, and even use the Harlequins as mediators in major quarrels.

I see. Can't quite say I agree with that idea, but at the end of the day it's not my decision... I could see Harlequins mediating though, clowns definitely lighten the mood.

M@L@L
23-03-2013, 08:00
Maybe it's to cut down on the obvious "Wait, DARK Eldar? That means they're the anti Eldar and have to be baddies to the "Oh so saintly and noble" Craftworld Eldar, right!?" misconception. Sure, both types might be selfish and aloof in their own way, but I'd think they'd try and keep from diminishing their already depleted numbers by warring with each other. Also, just because they will get along when they team up, doesn't mean they'll team up all the time. You'd think they were expressly forbidden from fighting each other, the way some are looking at it. It just means they'd have a easier time teaming up than some others should it ever come to that.

LordDarkhan
23-03-2013, 08:57
The way I understand it:
1) Dark Eldar vs Dark Eldar would be pretty common, honestly, but so would Dark Eldar helping Dark Eldar
2) Dark Eldar vs Craftworld Eldar is fairly uncommon, but by no means unheard of. Lesser Dark Eldar kabals/cults have a tendency to be unpredictable
3) Craftworld Eldar vs Craftworld Eldar is very uncommon, but I'm sure they would turn on each other to save their own Craftworlds

Anyway, getting back on track, my playgroup generally throws out the allies chart. Our rule is "if you can justify it, play it", which basically means anything goes, even Tyranid alliances (my wych cults have REALLY good Beastmasters). I suppose we could see a Genestealer cult, but no one in my group has IG and Tyranid. I play DE, CSM (which doubles as EVERY SM ARMY BWAHAHAHAHA), and Tyranid, which makes for some good fun (still haven't done CSM/Tyr yet).

TheDungen
23-03-2013, 11:13
when your race is really dying and barbarians are overunning the galaxy then small things like differences is philosophy matters very little.

DeathGlam
23-03-2013, 13:29
Dark Eldar & Craftworld Eldar will go to war/kill each other, just read the Incubi fluff, they have to kill an Aspect Warrior but yeah i like that the current fluff is very much Eldar vs everyone else, if i run some CE allies for my DE then i will try and keep it fluffy with some Harlequins and no Incubi or the Baron on the side of the DE.

Azulthar
23-03-2013, 13:53
Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar being Battle Brothers is one of the reasons why I don't treat the Allies matrix as complete nonsense.

Some thought and sense of fluff definitely went into it. My main concern is that the Space Marines are too open-minded.

TheDungen
23-03-2013, 15:28
maybee but afte rother craftworld eldar there is no other faction that the craft world eldar would be as likely to ally with as the dark eldar.

Sephillion
23-03-2013, 23:31
So you mean a generic chapter that love blue xenos is more likely than a generic chapter that loves sisters ?



A generic chapter might love Sisters, but unlike Marines, Sisters aren't really a "generic" army; they're more specific in their fluff, and thus in who and what they tolerate. So a nameless SM chapter might find common ground with Tau, but while they might not mind the Sister's help, the Sisters might not see eye to eye with them (don't they consider SM abnormal or something?).

That said, a SW army with Sister would have been awesome: vikings and valkyries!

A.T.
23-03-2013, 23:55
(don't they consider SM abnormal or something?)Not that i'm aware of, though the sisters have had the same recycled fluff since '97. There is a truce of sorts between the ecclesiarch and the astartes - symbolised by the rosarius given to chaplains - and while the two forces clash at times instances of the sisters and marines fighting are more often than not as a result of inquisitorial rather than ecclesiarchal command.

They do have notable issues with the Flesh Tearers (having witnessed them murdering loyal imperial defenders) and Space Wolves (who have been known to kill more than a few priests and are believed to worship gods other than the Emperor).

They have been known to fight side by side with the templars and salamanders.

russellmoo
24-03-2013, 06:06
DA and BA can't ally with Dark Eldar due to ridiculously good fast moving army combinations. I doubt fluff has much to do with it. Generally, the more generic armies can ally with more armies than the more specific codexes. So, IG can ally with almost anyone, tyrannid which are the most unique of all other codexes can't ally with anyone. BA due to being highly stylized have fewer ally choices than Vanilla marines which have a more generic design. Dark eldar and demons also much more specialized, and stylized in their codexes and they also have stricter limits to their allies. As with a lot of GW stuff, modelling tends to win out over rules, or fluff- the ally chart was designed to get you to buy the most models possible.

AmKhaibitu
24-03-2013, 17:31
Nids really should be allowed at the least to ally with Imperial Guard, then we could actually field genestealer cults.

Harwammer
24-03-2013, 21:46
Nids really should be allowed at the least to ally with Imperial Guard, then we could actually field genestealer cults.

No you couldn't.

LordDarkhan
25-03-2013, 20:53
Nids really should be allowed at the least to ally with Imperial Guard, then we could actually field genestealer cults.
No you couldn't.

Gotta love his logic. Nothing like a "nuh-uh" response to keep a chat going.