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Durpp
23-03-2013, 03:32
So, I was looking around last night and noticed something interesting...

“All the cavalry rules apply to monstrous cavalry, with two exceptions – monstrous cavalry always use the highest Toughnes sand Wounds characteristics the model has, rather than automatically using the rider's-...” pg 83 of BRB (with faq)

So, this got me thinkin'. If I were to put a Chaos Sorcerer atop a Daemonic Steed with barding, he would have toughness 5, and 3 wounds? Same for an Exalted Hero even? And would my opponents be able to kill my mount from under me? (I don't think they would, considering it's not a ridden monster, but monstrous cavalry)

Yeah, just wanted to know before I make Chaos Lords out of all of my heroes!
Thanks guys!

DaemonReign
23-03-2013, 04:02
Yes you got it right Durpp.
One thing to watch out for though is the fact that your Chaos Sorcerer (or Exalted Hero) - while effectively getting T5 W3 - can be killed outright with a Killing Blow (removing the whole model in all its glory).

Durpp
23-03-2013, 05:49
Sweet.
and yeah, too bad they got rid of all of that anti-killing blow stuff haha.

RejjeN
23-03-2013, 10:28
Keep in mind if you're running a Nurgle sorcerer that the first lore attribute buff would do nothing (unless you had lost a wound any way)

T10
23-03-2013, 12:14
One thing to watch out for though is the fact that your Chaos Sorcerer (or Exalted Hero) - while effectively getting T5 W3 - can be killed outright with a Killing Blow (removing the whole model in all its glory).

That's just a mis-FAQ: The rules are quite clear in that Monstrous Cavalry is not affected by Killing Blow, but someone who had played a lot of 6th and 7th edition got things confused.

-T10

RejjeN
23-03-2013, 21:06
Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.

This seems pretty straightforward to me...

T10
24-03-2013, 14:06
That's because it is pretty straight forward. Then again so is this:

Q: If I fire my Empire Cannon at one of my opponent's units, is the unit removed as a Casualty?
A: Yes, as long as you have line of sight to the target unit.

I am aware what the FAQ says on the matter: I'm just pointing out that it is wrong.

-T10

RejjeN
24-03-2013, 18:29
I realize the FAQ should be answering unclear rules rather than adding/changing existing ones, which they sometimes do (Necron FAQ allowing models to Embark on a Night Scythe is a prime example). We(my gaming group) have come to the conclusion these situations come about by GW not wanting to admit they've messed up/are wrong, or alternatively the one answering the FAQ doesn't understand the difference between an Errata and an FAQ.

Minsc
25-03-2013, 10:24
My gaminggroup treats FAQ's as guidance or a guide.
Following it around when it's the plausible thing to do, but when it tells us to jump off a cliff, we tell it go go ***** itself. :P

Orion_76
25-03-2013, 16:50
This seems pretty straightforward to me...

I remember when this FAQ came out that everyone assumed all characters on any type of mount (Monst Cav included) were no longer inmune to killing blow... BUT, I always thought the answer to the faq was incomplete:


Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.


Do they mean; "... if it wasnt mounted" when making your army list or do they mean "... if it wasnt mounted" throughout the course of the game.

I mean, an infantry character model mounted on a chariot or a monster becomes chariot or monster model type BUT can at any stage during the game become infantry again if their mount is killed, whereas an infantry character model on a monstrous beast becomes monstrous cavalry and it can never be separated from its mount during the game (they both live or they both die).

I personally think this faq was meant for clarifying that an infantry character on a chariot or monster could be eliminated by a Killing Blow, but most people just took it as ALL characters on any mount could now be KB'd.

It really makes no bloody sense that a bloodletter on a juggernaut cannot be KB'b yet a Herald of Khorne can (who is basically a bloodletter who trains with weights).

T-10..... what do you think??

Avian
25-03-2013, 16:56
Well, it DOES say "regardless of what he is mounted on". It wouldn't be "regardless" if it didn't work on monstrous mounts.

Orion_76
25-03-2013, 17:35
Well, it DOES say "regardless of what he is mounted on". It wouldn't be "regardless" if it didn't work on monstrous mounts.

Yes, but thats the question. Im talking about the answer, which goes after the question and the "Yes" it states is ONLY as long as..... and so on.

I and everyone in my gaming group, play it like all people do: characters can get KB'd even if on Monst cav, but I still wonder wether that was the intention of the Faq or not, and since T10 has his doubts I just wanted to mention mine as well.

Avian
25-03-2013, 18:29
Well, I'm no native English speaker, but to me it's perfectly clear that what they mean is that a mounted character can be KB'ed if he would have been an infantry model if his mount wasn't there.

Now, as far as I can recall, that means that all mounted characters apart from Ogre Hunters on Stonehorns can be KB'ed, because he's the only one who would not be infantry if he wasn't mounted. The only other monstrous infantry characters I can think of are Minotaurs and Throgg, and neither can ride anything.

T10
26-03-2013, 07:44
I remember when this FAQ came out that everyone assumed all characters on any type of mount (Monst Cav included) were no longer inmune to killing blow... BUT, I always thought the answer to the faq was incomplete:
...
T-10..... what do you think??

The rules say a character mounted on a warbeast becomes a cavalry model, on a monstrous beast he becomes a mostrous cavalry model, on a monster he becomes a monster model. "Assuming" that the character's current troop type is what determines hus susceptibility to Killing Blow is like "assuming" that taking a hit from a crossbow results in a S4 hit.

What I think should be failry clear.

-T10

Avian
26-03-2013, 08:51
Unfortunately you don't agree with GW...

Ja9nge
26-03-2013, 09:05
I am confused by the FAQ but a unit having two unit types makes no sense to me and creates lots of confusing situations. I assume own interpretations of the rule book take precedence above Frequenctly Asked question (which sometimes translate to Flimsy Answers to Questions).

RejjeN
27-03-2013, 09:53
I am confused by the FAQ but a unit having two unit types makes no sense to me and creates lots of confusing situations. I assume own interpretations of the rule book take precedence above Frequenctly Asked question (which sometimes translate to Flimsy Answers to Questions).
You can Houserule ANYTHING, so if you and your gaming group don't agree with the FAQ, that's perfectly fine. But you should probably ask any TO before you try to enforce such things mid-game at a tourney.

Ja9nge
27-03-2013, 10:37
You can Houserule ANYTHING, so if you and your gaming group don't agree with the FAQ, that's perfectly fine. But you should probably ask any TO before you try to enforce such things mid-game at a tourney.

I am just saying that in cases where the FAQ is unclear and may be interpreted in such a way that it conflicts with the rule book I would say the rulebook takes precedence. I also agree with your statement that FAQs should not change existing rules, and I still believe that is not the intention. Rule changes is included in erratas.


I realize the FAQ should be answering unclear rules rather than adding/changing existing ones, which they sometimes do (Necron FAQ allowing models to Embark on a Night Scythe is a prime example). We(my gaming group) have come to the conclusion these situations come about by GW not wanting to admit they've messed up/are wrong, or alternatively the one answering the FAQ doesn't understand the difference between an Errata and an FAQ.

Avian
27-03-2013, 12:46
I am just saying that in cases where the FAQ is unclear and may be interpreted in such a way that it conflicts with the rule book I would say the rulebook takes precedence.
Well, what do you do when you meet someone who doesn't think that, then?

Ja9nge
27-03-2013, 13:21
Well, what do you do when you meet someone who doesn't think that, then?

Then I quote From the GW website:

"FAQs, or Frequently Asked Questions are grey areas, points of confusion or places where rules can and have been interpreted in conflicting ways. For each FAQ we provide the answer as determined by the Games Development team; while these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata, they should be considered the 'official' interpretation"

I especially point out "these are not hard and fast rules text in the same way as Errata"

Then I might get the reply that "they should be considered the 'official' interpretation"
I would then reply: Then you have misinterpreted what the the 'official' interpretation is trying to interpret.
The grey sone the FAQ is trying to solve here is regarding characters riding monsters and chariots which can be targeted separately in CC. As for monstrous cavalry the rules are clear in the rule book and do not require further explanation.

Avian
27-03-2013, 13:32
Again: What do you do when you and your opponent don't agree? You say one thing, but the opponent and the FAQ say the opposite.

Ja9nge
27-03-2013, 13:58
Again: What do you do when you and your opponent don't agree? You say one thing, but the opponent and the FAQ say the opposite.

Roll a D6?

And technically it is then me and the rules saying one thing vs the opponent and the FAQ say another. The game is based on the rules and relevant erratas, not FAQ.

Hasufin
28-03-2013, 04:56
I remember when this FAQ came out that everyone assumed all characters on any type of mount (Monst Cav included) were no longer inmune to killing blow... BUT, I always thought the answer to the faq was incomplete:


Q: Does Killing Blow work against a mounted character regardless
of what he is mounted on? (p72)
A: Yes, as long as the character would count as an infantry
model if it wasn’t mounted.


Do they mean; "... if it wasnt mounted" when making your army list or do they mean "... if it wasnt mounted" throughout the course of the game.

I mean, an infantry character model mounted on a chariot or a monster becomes chariot or monster model type BUT can at any stage during the game become infantry again if their mount is killed, whereas an infantry character model on a monstrous beast becomes monstrous cavalry and it can never be separated from its mount during the game (they both live or they both die).

I personally think this faq was meant for clarifying that an infantry character on a chariot or monster could be eliminated by a Killing Blow, but most people just took it as ALL characters on any mount could now be KB'd.

It really makes no bloody sense that a bloodletter on a juggernaut cannot be KB'b yet a Herald of Khorne can (who is basically a bloodletter who trains with weights).

T-10..... what do you think??

You are correct it doesn't make any sense that a Herald can be KB'd but a bloddletter cant which is why we have it affect bloodletters too. What makes sense is to be consistent in your logic , if your group decides its the mount and not the rider that matters then be consistent , giving all models mounted on monsters/monsterous cav. immunity.

Iraf
28-03-2013, 07:01
Maybe they thought it overpowered to be able to kit out a character, and then make him immune to KB by putting him on a monstrous mount (Since there is so many ways to kit a character and no way to prepare for all potential builds). While at the same time elite troops that are monstrous cavalry have the immune to killing blow figured into their points, and they build those units to be cut-and-paste units that can't be kitted like a character.

For me, it seems pretty fair. I think giving an awesome character with snazzy magic items the ability to also being immune to Killing blow slightly overpowered.

That's my two cents.

Ja9nge
25-04-2013, 18:36
Sorry for reviving this thread, or if discussed somewhere else, but from the new FAQ:

Q: Is a character mounted on a monster, chariot or monstrous beast susceptible to the Killing Blow special rule? (p72)
A: No, as the character’s troop type as changes to ‘monster’, ‘chariot’ or ‘monstrous cavalry’ respectively, thereby rendering Killing Blow ineffective. Only Heroic Killing Blow will work against these targets.

Appears that the relevant FAQ for this discussion have changed...

Mr_Rose
25-04-2013, 19:08
Yay, the FAQ answer finally concurs with the actual written rules… just in time to make Archaon invulnerable again.