PDA

View Full Version : Chaos Ultramarines?



Generalissimus
25-03-2013, 14:00
Hey all,

A thought crossed my mind today, and having done a forum search I've not found the answer already written. I was just wondering whether there has been any recorded instance of Ultramarines going Chaos? They seem to be remarkably free from instances of anyone going warpy.

You see, I'm coming up with a few ideas for a potential army to build, and I'm almost certainly going with IG. However, a Space Marine army on the Chaos side of things to indulge my darker side would also be something to consider in the future, and I like the idea of taking an army that's almost universally known for being uncorrupted and turning them on their head. However, I would like the fluff to be believable for the army being turned to Chaos in the first place.

So, if anyone knows of any instances where Ultras have gone over to the dark side, or indeed whether the fluff would particularly support the notion of it happening in the first place, I would be interested to know. Thanks.

Tarian
25-03-2013, 14:05
Considering UM (and their successors) are the majority of marines, I'd assume the majority of 'new' Chaos Marines are probably UM or successor. I'm sure someone will be able to give citing/etc., but I don't think anyone would complain about Chaos UM, as opposed to Chaos Grey Knights or Chaos Tau, etc.

Generalissimus
25-03-2013, 14:17
Considering UM (and their successors) are the majority of marines, I'd assume the majority of 'new' Chaos Marines are probably UM or successor. I'm sure someone will be able to give citing/etc., but I don't think anyone would complain about Chaos UM, as opposed to Chaos Grey Knights or Chaos Tau, etc.

Thanks, your view is appreciated. :) Idea came to mind partially after seeing some of the Khornate Space Wolves companies people have done. I haven't seen much in the way of Chaos Ultras, so thought it might be a bit more of a novel idea (although, the Internet being what it is, I doubt I'm the first to think of it.)

baphomael
25-03-2013, 16:03
Previous chaos marine codex notes Sergeant Constantinus declaring himself the ruler of a world and going renegade. So its not unheard of. Also, given that the vast majority of successors come from UM stock its likely that most renegade chapters have UM geneseed.

Edit: my bad, Constantinus the Liberator was from the Sons of Guillimen chapter, not the UM.

Also reslised the world in question was Nova Terra... of the Interegnum fame.

Nikolaus
25-03-2013, 16:13
Previous chaos marine codex notes Sergeant Constantinus declaring himself the ruler of a world and going renegade. So its not unheard of. Also, given that the vast majority of successors come from UM stock its likely that most renegade chapters have UM geneseed.

Edit: my bad, Constantinus the Liberator was from the Sons of Guillimen chapter, not the UM.

Also reslised the world in question was Nova Terra... of the Interegnum fame.

and SoG were successors of UM..

and yes I freely believe that UM's are corrupt chaos worshippers.. as the whole galaxy was in a civil war UM's were playing war games and Girlyman was writing his book for when the imperium or horus fell.. getting ready to lead either side onward to conquer.

Ventris has manhandled enough chaos to be tainted..

and the rest are smug enough bastards to fall to Slaanesh.

Generalissimus
25-03-2013, 16:40
Previous chaos marine codex notes Sergeant Constantinus declaring himself the ruler of a world and going renegade. So its not unheard of. Also, given that the vast majority of successors come from UM stock its likely that most renegade chapters have UM geneseed.

Edit: my bad, Constantinus the Liberator was from the Sons of Guillimen chapter, not the UM.

Also reslised the world in question was Nova Terra... of the Interegnum fame.

Thanks for the info. Just had a quick look at the Sons - yes, they are a successor chapter rather than straight Ultras, although as a second founding chapter then they would have been Ultras originally who were then renamed and split off into their own chapter. So, a thousand-odd Ultramarines (out of what seems to be 250,000 Ultras immediately before the Heresy, so probably lots more just before the Codex split the legions) could conceivably rebel whilst still operating under the Ultramarines name.

The rough backstory I had in mind centred thusly: A chapter of the Ultramarines Legion, being of particularly elitist disposition regarding Space Marines in general and Ultras in particular, rebels against the Codex split. Very much of the 'Space Marines are far superior to regular humans', they feel betrayed by Guilliman splitting the legion and stepping down as Lord Commander to let the 'human' (to use the term loosely) High Lords run the Imperium. They take their armour and gear, call themselves 'The True Sons' and run, seeking to build their own Marine-dominated empire in the stars. Eventually they fall to one of the Chaos influences and find themselves pushed into the Eye during the Scouring, where they build themselves a dominion in the Warp rift and strike out at the Imperium they feel betrayed them.

A bit 'Paradise Lost' influenced overall. Plausible?

narrativium
25-03-2013, 17:16
It strains plausibility. They're protesting against being split off from the Ultramarines, by splitting themselves off from the Ultramarines?
For that matter, the timing: they've just survived the Horus Heresy, a seven-year civil war in which everyone's loyalties were questioned, and their response in the wake of that war is to turn against their primarch's wishes?
There is a lot going on during the Scouring, so the Ultramarines would have been very busy chasing down the Traitor Legions to chase down a single Traitor Chapter of their own, but that wouldn't be overlooked.

You can definitely have traitor Ultramarines, though. The Grey Knights have a proud reputation of having never lost a single warrior to Chaos's temptations; they're the only chapter who can make that claim. So the Ultramarines have lost some along the way.

Generalissimus
25-03-2013, 17:27
Fair critique. I'll have a bit of a think on fluff. Any suggestions would be welcome. :)

Lord Damocles
25-03-2013, 18:24
'Daemonblood' in Let the Galaxy Burn features Ultramarines Sergeant Castus who falls to Chaos (Nurgle).
He gets better (sort of)

Also:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?353206-Traitor-Ultramarines

Generalissimus
25-03-2013, 18:35
'Daemonblood' in Let the Galaxy Burn features Ultramarines Sergeant Castus who falls to Chaos (Nurgle).


Also:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?353206-Traitor-Ultramarines

Ah brilliant, thankyou. I didn't notice that thread. :)

Kiro
25-03-2013, 22:41
Also reslised the world in question was Nova Terra... of the Interegnum fame.

The Interex? :confused:

baphomael
26-03-2013, 01:33
The Interex? :confused:

Nova Terra Interregnum, the period when Nova Terra secceded from the Imperium (hence the Interregnum). Different thing from the Interex who kicked about 30k times.

Chem-Dog
26-03-2013, 02:03
Also reslised the world in question was Nova Terra... of the Interegnum fame.

It might be that world. Personally I could imagine a vast collection of planets across the Imperium having been named Nova Terra or something like that when they were first settled, one has to wonder if the Imperium didn't just change their names as they went, first a compliance number, then renaming in honour of something or someone else.


So, a thousand-odd Ultramarines (out of what seems to be 250,000 Ultras immediately before the Heresy, so probably lots more just before the Codex split the legions) could conceivably rebel whilst still operating under the Ultramarines name.

Firstly, I doubt even the Ultramarines managed to appreciably increase their numbers during the Heresy or in the Scouring immediately after. Secondly, Even though we're presented with numerous examples of Legionaries not siding with their brothers in the Heresy to date it's been loyalists within traitor legions and not traitors within the loyalist legions, it could happen, but I don't see Guilleman's stalwarts being prime candidates, they are pragmatists but they are loyal.


The rough backstory I had in mind centred thusly: A chapter of the Ultramarines Legion, being of particularly elitist disposition regarding Space Marines in general and Ultras in particular, rebels against the Codex split.

As I said, the Ultras are stalwarts, they would accept the orders as a practical and expedient solution even if they hated them, stoic.


Very much of the 'Space Marines are far superior to regular humans'

The Ultramarines are far more invested in the welfare of the "mortal" members of the Imperium than a good number of the Legions, Ultramar is a pinnacle of civil planning as much as it is a feat of military coordination.


they feel betrayed by Guilliman splitting the legion and stepping down as Lord Commander to let the 'human' (to use the term loosely) High Lords run the Imperium.

The details around this period are a bit hazy, but again, the Ultras would do as ordered because that's what they do, they're soldiers. You don't have to understand the orders or even like them. Not that I think any one in the Ultramarines Legion would have any difficulty understanding Guilleman's choices, I'm sure that a good many of them would have come to the same conclusions.

I'm not saying it's a terrible idea, you're just going to need to seriously consider why these rigid by the book types have suddenly decided to go renegade in defiance of their Primarch's edicts, contrary to everything they've learned at the tail end of the most brutal and destructive civil war in the history of the species.in which the unthinkable- Astartes killing Astartes- became a constant.

Generalissimus
26-03-2013, 07:25
Thanks to everyone so far for their advice and critique. I appreciate the fluff-wise issues that appear to have arisen regarding Ultramarines turning traitor, so have been doing some rethinking.

An alternative idea I've had is thus, which I have borrowed partially from the fluff on the turning of the Blood Disciples:

During the Great Scouring, a full thousand-strong chapter of the Ultramarines legion is deployed against a particularly strong chaotic stronghold where the disciples of Khorne hold sway. On the eve of victory by Imperial forces, the Khornate leadership on the planet launches a last-resort attack and several members of the chapter are exposed to a biological weapon derived from the blood of the Khornate cultists.

In a fashion similar to the turning of the Blood Disciples, the unaware Marines bring the infection back to the rest of the Chapter, and over a short period of time infect the rest of their comrades. The Chapter steadily degrades, becoming more brutal against the worlds they encounter during the Scouring until they finally turn their guns on their allies also. The Khorne worshipping Ultras now become part of the Chaos diaspora being pushed back into the Eye by their former comrades, where they settle upon a world within the rift and strike out at the Imperium and other Chaos factions in the name of the Blood God.

Comments and critiques? I think using the idea of a 'blood plague' similar to the infection of the Blood Disciples would help answer the question about why such a stalwart and loyalist-minded group such as Ultramarines would be turned by Chaos. And the infection of Marines by such a plague has already been demonstrated in the fluff.

Idomeneus
26-03-2013, 10:23
Sounds good, two things, a thousand strong ultramarines force pre heresy would be a company, ten thousand to a chapter, also would be cool if you could work the Calth atrocity in there somewhere, like Kor Phaeron capturing ultras and twisting them? I don't know, I just really really love Know No Fear :D

Generalissimus
26-03-2013, 11:20
Sounds good, two things, a thousand strong ultramarines force pre heresy would be a company, ten thousand to a chapter, also would be cool if you could work the Calth atrocity in there somewhere, like Kor Phaeron capturing ultras and twisting them? I don't know, I just really really love Know No Fear :D

Thanks for the viewpoint. :) Regarding the Chapter reference, I was going off this (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:SMLegionOrg.jpg#.UVGD2ZEgGSM) which states that a chapter was 1000 strong. Unless this is incorrect?

Regarding Calth: interesting idea, I will certainly take a look into incorporating it. :)

Chapters Unwritten
26-03-2013, 11:38
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet but there is a particularly awesome short story in which an ultramarine becomes possesses while a sister of battle he is with escapes. She then spends decades hunting him down and... Well let's just say it has an awesome ending. So it canonically is possible, at least.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Generalissimus
26-03-2013, 11:46
Don't know if it's been mentioned yet but there is a particularly awesome short story in which an ultramarine becomes possesses while a sister of battle he is with escapes. She then spends decades hunting him down and... Well let's just say it has an awesome ending. So it canonically is possible, at least.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for the info. Sounds like a good story; if you happen to remember the name of it, I would be interested in reading it.

Idomeneus
26-03-2013, 13:03
Thanks for the viewpoint. Regarding the Chapter reference, I was going off this (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:SMLegionOrg.jpg#.UVGD2ZEgGSM) which states that a chapter was 1000 strong. Unless this is incorrect?

Regarding Calth: interesting idea, I will certainly take a look into incorporating it. :)

Hmmm, lexicanum... That's probably true of many legions, but it differs greatly. The serrated sun chapter of the Word Bearers was three companies of a hundred, the Death Guard use seven massive Great Companies, the Iron Warriors also use Great Companies, don't know how many, last time someone suggested a standardised organisation to Russ he probably ate them. I'm going on this quote from Know No Fear (an awesome book BTW. Tells you everything you need to know about the organisation and mindset of the Ultrasmurfs)

"The XIII Legion, largest of all the Legiones Astartes, is divided into Chapters, a throwback to the old regimantal structures of the thunder warriors. Each Chapter is formed of ten companies. The basic unit currency is a company, a thousand legionaires, plus their support retinue, led by a senior captain. A company, Gage has heard his primarch comment, is more than sufficient for most purposes. There is an old aphorism, popular in the XIII. It is, perhaps, boastful and arrogant, and there are certain opponents such as the greenskins and the eldar to which it does not apply, but it contains a basic estimation of truth:
To take a town, send a legionary; to take a city, send a squad; to take a world, send a company; to take a culture, send a Chapter"

Generalissimus
26-03-2013, 13:06
Hmmm, lexicanum... That's probably true of many legions, but it differs greatly. The serrated sun chapter of the Word Bearers was three companies of a hundred, the Death Guard use seven massive Great Companies, the Iron Warriors also use Great Companies, don't know how many, last time someone suggested a standardised organisation to Russ he probably ate them. I'm going on this quote from Know No Fear (an awesome book BTW. Tells you everything you need to know about the organisation and mindset of the Ultrasmurfs)

"The XIII Legion, largest of all the Legiones Astartes, is divided into Chapters, a throwback to the old regimantal structures of the thunder warriors. Each Chapter is formed of ten companies. The basic unit currency is a company, a thousand legionaires, plus their support retinue, led by a senior captain. A company, Gage has heard his primarch comment, is more than sufficient for most purposes. There is an old aphorism, popular in the XIII. It is, perhaps, boastful and arrogant, and there are certain opponents such as the greenskins and the eldar to which it does not apply, but it contains a basic estimation of truth:
To take a town, send a legionary; to take a city, send a squad; to take a world, send a company; to take a culture, send a Chapter"

Thanks, I'll take a look at Know No Fear. :) I know the Lexicanum isn't always 100 percent reliable, but for a quick reference point for those without access to the primary source I find it quite useful.

Idomeneus
26-03-2013, 13:09
That looks like a copy of FW Horus Heresy Book 1 (which I really want to get), so that probably means it's quite accurate for World Eaters, Sons of Horus, Emperors Children etc. Guilliman just organises his differently.

Chem-Dog
26-03-2013, 13:55
I don't want to be the naysayer here, but "infected and subsequently evil" isn't particularly enthralling as a motive, it robs them of any responsibility for their actions and any real reason for their turn, which is usually the most compelling facet of a traitor regardless of which side of the moral divide they stand.

Maybe (some of) your Ultras were part of the Crusader Host held prisoner on Terra at the outbreak of the Heresy and didn't take to kindly to being tacitly accused of disloyalty (though to then go rogue would suggest imprisonment was not without good reason), maybe your group was on extended duty with a traitor legion and sufficiently influenced prior to the Heresy's opening gambit.
Perhaps they were on some long range mission and effectively ignorant of the Heresy unfolding, their first encounter with Imperial personnel being a welcoming and friendly Traitor legion (pick one) just prior to a seemingly unprovoked attack from a loyalist legion (pick one).
Your guys are faced with a snap decision to pick a side or simply assumed by the loyalists to be in league with the traitors, cue a traumatic battle between brothers in which the Ultras shed the wrong blood and are now cast as traitors regardless of their intent, do they return to the Imperium to face justice for their actions? Do they retreat from the Imperium disillusioned by events? Do they take off on a self appointed quest of redemption upon realising what they have done?



Don't know if it's been mentioned yet but there is a particularly awesome short story in which an ultramarine becomes possesses while a sister of battle he is with escapes. She then spends decades hunting him down and... Well let's just say it has an awesome ending. So it canonically is possible, at least.

Daemonblood by Ben Counter. Inferno Issue 12. I'll leave it to others to say if it's been reprinted elsewhere, but a goodly amount of the Inferno stuff has been.

Generalissimus
26-03-2013, 14:30
snip


Some very good points here. It seems that developing a good backstory for heresy for the Ultras (and for anyone really, but particularly the Ultras given the uber-loyalist heritage) is going to take some serous thought. I like the long-range patrol idea and influence by elements unknown to be harmful at the time - perhaps combining that with some kind of psychoactive chemical influence would make an interesting story.

I think I'm going to have to sit down and read through the first few HH books and see how turning Chaos was being spun as desirable from the traitors perspective; should give me some ideas on how an Ultras company might be influenced by meeting the wrong people at the wrong time.

Idomeneus
26-03-2013, 16:38
Pride seems a likely motive for ultras, many would see themselves as above humans, and so resent the high lords, mere humans as opposed to the emperor, ordering space marines around. They would also feel angry with their own primarch, for helping the lords with this shackling of the astartes. I wouldn't dedicate them to Khorne btw, it gets rid of all the interesting personality facets and replaces them with a big axe and serious anger management issues.

Lord Damocles
26-03-2013, 18:45
Daemonblood by Ben Counter. Inferno Issue 12. I'll leave it to others to say if it's been reprinted elsewhere, but a goodly amount of the Inferno stuff has been.

'Daemonblood' in Let the Galaxy Burn features Ultramarines Sergeant Castus who falls to Chaos (Nurgle).

10 characters

Kiro
26-03-2013, 18:56
Nova Terra Interregnum, the period when Nova Terra secceded from the Imperium (hence the Interregnum). Different thing from the Interex who kicked about 30k times.

Ah, right. Never heard of the Interregnum!

baphomael
27-03-2013, 11:45
That looks like a copy of FW Horus Heresy Book 1 (which I really want to get), so that probably means it's quite accurate for World Eaters, Sons of Horus, Emperors Children etc. Guilliman just organises his differently.

Well the dearh guard and sons of horus didnt follow that structure at least. The DG was organised into seven Grand Companies, while the SoH had no operational levels between company and legion.

Idomeneus
27-03-2013, 17:41
True. The only legions with chapters I have seen are Ultras, WBs and BA (Raldoron is a chapter master in Fear to Tread)

angelismortis
27-03-2013, 22:50
True. The only legions with chapters I have seen are Ultras, WBs and BA (Raldoron is a chapter master in Fear to Tread)

DA also had chapters. The main character in Angels of Darkness was a heresy era chapter master.

Idomeneus
27-03-2013, 23:49
Oh yeah. Forgot DA. But Sons didn't, nor did wolves, Thousand sons, Death Guard, EC, Warriors, don't think Hands had them either, Raven Guard, Alpha legion, night lords, WE, basically anything with the rank of first captain (Gage is master of the first chapter). Don't know enough about Salamanders and White Scars, Sigismund is first captain, so probably no chapters there.

YourChapterMaster
28-03-2013, 05:07
I have not read it first hand but a good friend of mine just got done reading a book where a squad was stationed on a back world prity much fighting the local populace or something. They didnt go chaos per say but renegate after there squad was wittled down over time. I believe he said the book was written around the heresy era or shortly after, but i could be mistaken. I instinctively called this heresy being ultramarine fan myself and the fact they follow the codex so closely this never crossed my mind until he mentioned it. If I find the name of the book I will throw it up here.

Iron_Lord
31-03-2013, 13:43
In the short story Into the Maelstrom (in the collection of the same name)- the greatest of Huron Blackheart's Khorne Berserkers, is a former Ultramarine called Crassus.