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Ba'al Starslayer
26-03-2013, 20:28
SPOILER ALERT!!
This will contain information from Path of the Incubi. Although the information in question is not a "spoiler" as such, it is still half-way into the book.


In Path of the Incubi, Morr tells the story of Arhra - the Father of Scorpions to Motley the Harlequin. This is, as far as I'm aware, a previously untold story of Arhra. I take it as unbiased, as there was no need for it, and it actually cleanly meshes in with the Craftworlder's point of view.

The long and short of it is that Arhra was possessed after being wounded in a fight against Chaos and ordered his students to kill him, which they did.

So, is Drazhar really Arhra, as previously thought (and implied by his Codex entry)? If not, which the Path of the Incubus kind of implies, then how is he so powerful? Morr states that there is something darkly unique about Drazhar, but the he is definitely not Arhra himself.

ryng_sting
26-03-2013, 20:59
So, is Drazhar really Arhra, as previously thought (and implied by his Codex entry)? If not, which the Path of the Incubus kind of implies, then how is he so powerful? Morr states that there is something darkly unique about Drazhar, but the he is definitely not Arhra himself.

Another question is who took Arhra's armour. (Think about this.)

I suspect both questions have a common answer.

theJ
26-03-2013, 21:00
Death has minimal effect on Phoenix Lords. It sounds perfectly reasonable(to me, at least) that some foolish young Incubus got his hands on Arhras armour and thought it'd be totally rad to wear it...

bittick
26-03-2013, 23:23
Generally they don't even have to put it on. As long as they touch it, they get sucked in.

Horus38
27-03-2013, 17:45
So, is Drazhar really Arhra, as previously thought (and implied by his Codex entry)? If not, which the Path of the Incubus kind of implies, then how is he so powerful? Morr states that there is something darkly unique about Drazhar, but the he is definitely not Arhra himself.

Pretty sure they're separate individuals. The 5th edition core book recent timeline fluff has Karandras and Ahra dueling for 17 days (unfortunately without a clear victor).

Poseidal
27-03-2013, 18:08
Was Arhra against the Asurya before getting possessed?

Could it still be all hearsay?

djhowitzer
27-03-2013, 18:11
that was one of my favourite bits. i love morr - he is such a curmudgeonly old mumpsimuss

Chrysalis
27-03-2013, 18:19
Death has minimal effect on Phoenix Lords. It sounds perfectly reasonable(to me, at least) that some foolish young Incubus got his hands on Arhras armour and thought it'd be totally rad to wear it...

I think the incubi path wasn't founded when Arha died. Hence no incubus could wear his armor.
Maybe this "dark thing" about Arha is that something evil & non-eldar was sucked in the armor, corrupting it forever...

Ba'al Starslayer
27-03-2013, 19:49
Death has minimal effect on Phoenix Lords. It sounds perfectly reasonable(to me, at least) that some foolish young Incubus got his hands on Arhras armour and thought it'd be totally rad to wear it...

Phoenix Lords pass on their persona through their Spirit Stones. As no Dark Eldar wear them now, none could have "inherited" the mind of Arhra.


Pretty sure they're separate individuals. The 5th edition core book recent timeline fluff has Karandras and Ahra dueling for 17 days (unfortunately without a clear victor).

When the 3e Codex was released, Drazhar as a character was a beast - plus he wielded blades that only Arhra could ever master prior to him. In the 5e Codex Drazhar has the same statline as a Phoenix Lord and similar armaments - 2+ armour, and all the special wargear of his "aspect". What I'm saying is that despite past "implications" that Drazhar is Arhra, the story Morr gives is totally different.


Was Arhra against the Asurya before getting possessed?

Could it still be all hearsay?

No, the story Morr gives is that Arhra disagreed with the teachings of Asurmen but never fought against them until he was possessed. This would also support the Craftworlder interpretation of "burning with the dark light of Chaos".


that was one of my favourite bits. i love morr - he is such a curmudgeonly old mumpsimuss

God I love Morr... he's so cool! :D


I think the incubi path wasn't founded when Arha died. Hence no incubus could wear his armor.
Maybe this "dark thing" about Arha is that something evil & non-eldar was sucked in the armor, corrupting it forever...

The "Incubi" were around. Whether they were CALLED Incubi or not is not disclosed. But the "Hidden Shrine of Arhra" is claimed to have been built when he was possessed, and ultimately killed.

Poseidal
28-03-2013, 00:07
Phoenix Lords pass on their persona through their Spirit Stones. As no Dark Eldar wear them now, none could have "inherited" the mind of Arhra.


Dark Eldar don't wear Spirit Stones, except the Incubi. In fact, you need to get hold of a spirit stone to join the Incubi.

What is an Incubi but an incubator? What is he incubating? He needs to collect spirit stones, and they pass on membership with the Incubi suits. The highest Incubi (Klaivexes?) probably are 'liches' like their Exarch equivalents.

With what wish would your soul stone shine?

DYoung
28-03-2013, 01:20
Dark Eldar don't wear Spirit Stones, except the Incubi. In fact, you need to get hold of a spirit stone to join the Incubi.

What is an Incubi but an incubator? What is he incubating? He needs to collect spirit stones, and they pass on membership with the Incubi suits. The highest Incubi (Klaivexes?) probably are 'liches' like their Exarch equivalents.

With what wish would your soul stone shine?

Not really sure what you're trying to say but the spirit stones that the Incubi have are all broken and I'm pretty sure that their name is referring to the demon and has nothing to do with incubation.

Horus38
28-03-2013, 02:48
When the 3e Codex was released, Drazhar as a character was a beast - plus he wielded blades that only Arhra could ever master prior to him. In the 5e Codex Drazhar has the same statline as a Phoenix Lord and similar armaments - 2+ armour, and all the special wargear of his "aspect". What I'm saying is that despite past "implications" that Drazhar is Arhra, the story Morr gives is totally different.

Yea, I wasn't trying to say he's not a combat monster, but rather Drazhar is doing his thing in the Dark Eldar book, and Ahra is specifically mentioned by name in the recent fluff leading me to believe they are in fact separate people. I might be misunderstanding your reference?

BooTMGSG
28-03-2013, 12:32
The long and short of it is that Arhra was possessed after being wounded in a fight against Chaos and ordered his students to kill him, which they did.




How do Aspect warriors go about killing their Pheonix Lord?
Wouldn't they just get sucked into the suit?

Also Karandras is actively hunting Arhra, so it looks like the job is not done

Poseidal
28-03-2013, 13:01
Not really sure what you're trying to say but the spirit stones that the Incubi have are all broken and I'm pretty sure that their name is referring to the demon and has nothing to do with incubation.

They're broken, but they still work (they specifically keep the Aspect Warrior soul inside). They integrate it into their suits too.

Xisor
28-03-2013, 15:34
How do Aspect warriors go about killing their Pheonix Lord?
Wouldn't they just get sucked into the suit?

Also Karandras is actively hunting Arhra, so it looks like the job is not done


As with the epilogue of the story: Souls are never truly destroyed

In that regard, as with much of Eldar mythic cycles, the idea of Karandras actively hunting Arhra could be nothing more than allegory for 'leading an eternal conflict between Scorpions and Incubi', or it could be an indication that despite everything, Drazhar is indeed a sort of 'weakened husk' of what Arhra was - a ghost or crippled echo of Arhra, or a shard, the 'largest fragment' of what was left of Arhra... you get the idea.

As for killing their Phoenix Lord - it's simple. Once upon a time no phoenix lords had died - who knew the limits of their existence? Killing a Phoenix Lord is possible. Exorcising the 'daemon', also possible. But would it irrevocably damage Arhra, would it ultimately destroy his existence and leave a semi-autonomous, Thousand Sons- or Necron-esque suit that keeps re-animating yet has lost most of its previous identity and 'soul'?

The action of whatever happened to Arhra and the nature of his death might be severe things - they might wholly overwhelm the aspects of the other Aspects' Phoenix Lords that keep them re-animating and preserving the nature & continuity of their Phoenix Lords.

In my eyes, it strikes me that there's still massive elements of the puzzle that are missing:
1- Could a Klaivex become a Young King?
2- The nature of Arhra's possession. Invited? Hubris? Attempt to become an Illuminati? An attempt to ultimately 'remove' the War Mask and divorce from Khaine? Tricked by Cegorach/a Harlequin? Actively seduced by a daemon? Part of an on-going quest for ever-greater power? Result of an attempt to interfere in the Horus Heresy?
3- What, truly, were the motivations of the early Phoenix Lords. I know, I know, we've got the 'big, vague answer' on that, but the internal differences, the schisms, the outlooks on which MOs are feasible... all that jazz. What was the driving impulse, which memories of the War in Heaven and the death of the gods were prompting and which were irrelevant?

In other news, Path of the Incubus is indeed a terrific book. Anyone intrigued by all this might like to check the source and get one of BL's most imaginative, intriguing and entertaining series out there. (Path of the Renegade is book one.)

Ba'al Starslayer
28-03-2013, 18:03
Yea, I wasn't trying to say he's not a combat monster, but rather Drazhar is doing his thing in the Dark Eldar book, and Ahra is specifically mentioned by name in the recent fluff leading me to believe they are in fact separate people. I might be misunderstanding your reference?

What I'm trying to say is that there are 2 different ways Arhra could be viewed;
-He's currently alive and running around somewhere
-He's actually Drazhar.
What I'm trying to say is that Morr's story contradicts both of these - he's simply dead.



How do Aspect warriors go about killing their Pheonix Lord?
Wouldn't they just get sucked into the suit?

Also Karandras is actively hunting Arhra, so it looks like the job is not done


"Phoenix Lords" are a term of endearment, not an "almighty soul-devouring being". They accumulate memories and personae through their Spirit Stones. The story Morr gives does say that he began butchering the Incubi, but his inner (real) voice screamed out for his sons to kill him as a final test to his beliefs (standing against all that is Chaos, basically).


They're broken, but they still work (they specifically keep the Aspect Warrior soul inside). They integrate it into their suits too.

Broken, and only half working. A broken Spirit Stone is of no use other than to keep the soul(s) already inside tormented. As far as I gather, a broken Spirit Stone cannot transfer it's souls.... easy way to "kill" a Phoenix Lord, huh?

Xisor:
Arhra was, as you know having read the book, against Chaos in all it's forms, and hated his Brothers' attitudes to combating it. Arhra took a more martial approach, and was supposedly struck down by the ruinous powers and, in his weakened state, possessed.

I do totally agree that so many pieces of this particular puzzle are missing, but the "reveal" of Morr's story has definitely changed my view of Arhra and, indeed, the Incubi. (Not that it was "negative" to begin with - I collect them, after all!). But this book does add a lot more depth to the Incubi backstory rather than "merciless killers".

Hendarion
29-03-2013, 07:21
Phoenix Lords pass on their persona through their Spirit Stones.

"Phoenix Lords" are a term of endearment, not an "almighty soul-devouring being". They accumulate memories and personae through their Spirit Stones.
No. They pass it through their armour. So it doesn't matter if a CWE with stone, a Harlequin or a Dark Eldar touches it. Whoever does, gets sucked in and becomes the new Phoenix Lord.


A broken Spirit Stone is of no use other than to keep the soul(s) already inside tormented. As far as I gather, a broken Spirit Stone cannot transfer it's souls.... easy way to "kill" a Phoenix Lord, huh?
Not at all, because it isn't the stone that matters and the armours seam to rebuild themselves.


As ryng_sting already said, there is most likely a common answer. Arha got possessed. Arha got killed. Daemon remained in the armour. Someone picked it up and that someone is Drazhar - he got reborn as Arha and now has the dark touch of the daemon that remained in Arha's armour. Pure speculation, but very much possible and no big puzzle with missing pieces.

Chrysalis
29-03-2013, 07:34
No. They pass it through their armour. So it doesn't matter if a CWE with stone, a Harlequin or a Dark Eldar touches it. Whoever does, gets sucked in and becomes the new Phoenix Lord.

As ryng_sting already said, there is most likely a common answer. Arha got possessed. Arha got killed. Daemon remained in the armour. Someone picked it up and that someone is Drazhar - he got reborn as Arha and now has the dark touch of the daemon that remained in Arha's armour. Pure speculation, but very much possible and no big puzzle with missing pieces.

That sounds good to me. I think it's clearly stated somewhere (although I don't remember where exactly) that Arha was tainted by the dark touch of chaos. To me, the fact that chaos is involved means that Arha didn't simply crossed the line from CWE to DE.

Hendarion
29-03-2013, 07:41
Actually the quote is more like "burning in the dark light of chaos". It still would line up ok.

Ba'al Starslayer
29-03-2013, 18:23
I doubt the owner of the armour, supposedly Drazhar, is corrupted. He seems to have a great deal of self-control and a sense of honour. I was always under the impression the Phoenix Lord's Soul Stone was the way he carried on his memories, but I do not know the ways of the Craftworlders. If it is the armour itself that does it, it would seem that Drazhar is the current Arhra much the same way any other Phoenix Lord is reborn.

Saunders
29-03-2013, 18:59
*deep breath* Okay, here we go!


Morr claims that Arhra's followers "slew Arhra's corrupted mortal form and partook of his untouched spirit, taking it into themselves so that the way of Arhra should endure for ever more."

That could mean many different things. Arhra could have been summarily destroyed (say what you will about phoenix lord armor, it wouldn't be invulnerable to individuals determined to destroy it) or had parts of his essence incorporated in to his shrine's followers. The Incubi may be posessed by his rage... or perhaps tainted by chaos. Then again, the story that Morr told could be a fabrication, with the truth hidden by the hierarchs of the shrine.

In light of the Path of the Incubus, I believe three things:

1) Drazhar is not Arhra. At least, not in the sense that he is not the Phoenix Lord Arhra. I was thrilled that Drazhar made an appearance in the story, and while his origin and purpose remain a mystery, no true comparison is made between him and the fallen phoenix. They don't share a physical resemblence, which I'll delve in to further on my third point. In the meantime, he does seem to have a purity in purpose about him. It is possible that he acts as the inheritor of Arhra's original teachings. Drazhar doesn't speak, does not bow to authority, and is on par in martial ability with the oldest of exarchs. This is in contrast with the current state of affairs for the incubi and shrine hierarchs, who appear to be the leadership of the Aspect.

2) Arhra is alive, in some form. So we get our first description of Arhra, as Morr revisits his past. He's a total badass with a huge weapon and a many-bladed helm. The 5th edition rulebook fluff predates the dark eldar revamp, but in its timeline we know that Karandras is still hunting and fighting Arhra. We've had older short story fluff supporting that as well. The Karandras-Arhra feud is not new evidence, but there is a foreboding glimpse that both Motley and Morr catch that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. When they are ambushed on the path to the temple, there was a fifth figure that did not engage them. Motley recalls what he saw when the ambush was sprung, "Motley was unsure just how Morr would react if he knew that Motley had caught, just for an instant, the distinct impression of burning eyes set into a many-bladed helm before the mysterious figure vanished into the mist." Whether or not it was an apparition of sorts or the real thing, he still holds sway in his shrine. Judging from Motley's sight, the burning eyes are a bad sign.

3) The Path of the Incubus has been corrupted. Morr is shocked to find that the hierarchs refuse to meet with him. Instead, they are determined to kill him. Over the course of the book, Morr becomes more disillusioned with his order. His explanation of Arhra's backstory makes me wonder as well. When did incubi start breaking spirit stones as part of ritual and tradition? Aside from a handful of other little oddities, the path seems to have changed since its founding. Impossible to say whether it is simply due to the affiliation with Dark Eldar society or something more sinister, such as a lasting influence of Arhra's corrupted spirit.

My theory? The Incubus order is tainted at its core from Arhra's corrupted influence. Morr is an ancient being by all standards and has been removed from the shrine's direct influence since he was first brought there by Arhra to become an incubus. His notion of what the order is drastically differs with what it has become. There is a dichotimy between 'Good' Arhra and 'Bad' Arhra between what the incubi and the craftworlds speak of his fate. Morr's tale of Arhra's origins can be taken as truth--he knew Arhra, and was trained in his ways. Beyond that, the truth is unclear. It's reasonable to assume, judging from his origins, that Arhra unwillingly succumbed to chaos. What happened afterwards is anyone's guess. The craftworlds claim that he conspired with daemons and razed the first aspect shrines. The incubi claim that he returned and in a moment of clarity his true self bid them to destroy him and consume his spirit.

I believe that all of this could have happened, and that they are not mutually exclusive tales. I also believe that Arhra in turn corrupted the incubi hierarchs. Drazhar may not be Arhra, but he does appear to adhere to Arhra's original teachings. This is in contrast to the established order, and in spite of that he appears to do what he wants.


I think you guys are asking the wrong questions, in regards to whether or not someone else has donned Arhra's armor and wargear. As Motley quips, perhaps he has been changed in to something unrecognizable. His story goes beyond that of simply being a chaos Phoenix Lord.

djhowitzer
29-03-2013, 19:27
it is the armour. it has been since time anon. when a new person dons the armour their body is slowly absorbed until when they are "killed"the armour is empty.
this is not the same as the way wraith creatures are animated.

andy chambers. why oh why did gw not fight tooth and nail to keep hold of you. i wish i could somehow combine the spirit of the chambers/priestley/johnson gw core from 20 years ago with the financial nouse they have developed since

Saunders
29-03-2013, 21:39
it is the armour. it has been since time anon. when a new person dons the armour their body is slowly absorbed until when they are "killed"the armour is empty.
this is not the same as the way wraith creatures are animated.

The wake of the Fall is not really 'time anon' :P A suit can still be destroyed. That said, anything could happen when chaos gets ahold of it.

djhowitzer
29-03-2013, 22:01
by time anon i meant since the early nineties when this stuff first got written about. and yes, i still have the relevant copies of white dwarf to refer back to it

BooTMGSG
30-03-2013, 21:49
It could be that Drazhar is like Karandras, a fellow pupil of Arhra who has taken a different path.

Consider that "facts" presented by Morr.
Arhra gets possessed by Chaos, this could be an actual possession, or simple an obi-wan point of view.

Whatever happened his pupils manage to remove him.

Now what do the pupils do? Who says Karandras's path is right, perhaps Drazhar feels that his path is true. Perhaps not-Arhra feels that he/their master was correct and it was the demon's fault.

So the disciples part, Karandras's view takes hold in the craftworld, who knows what Drazhar is up to, while not-Arhra feels that he will be vindicated by following the original teaching.
Karandras, true to his masters request to end his life, is now seeking out not-Arhra, because Arhra will not die until his teachings are dust.

Chrysalis
30-03-2013, 22:07
That's a little bit off topic, but Arhra somehow makes me think of Akuma/Gouki in Street Fighter: A grand master that was finally overwhelmed by his own destructive power! :D

More on-topic: I wonder what Arhra's dramatic story means concerning the scorpion aspect. For example, I've never heard of a "dark" dire avenger, neither do we have a fire dragon that was overwhelmed by his thirst for destruction - still, dragons are defined as enraged warriors on the battlefield, hungry for melted metal. So, is the path of the scorpion a more dangerous one, since its very founder crossed the line between good and evil?

djhowitzer
31-03-2013, 00:10
scorpians are the only aspect who act in cold blood. they stalk their prey from the shadows. there is a dexter morganess to that. everyone else fights in hot blood. especially fire dragons and banshees.

Fen
31-03-2013, 00:59
Well,it's most definitly the armor,or even more that that.

Remember that it's hinted in more than one place that no-one is sure of WHAT is actually inside the phoenix lords armors

Quoting from Path of the warrior

"The phoenix lord's armor was rent open from stomach to throat,but there was no blood splashed,no organs ripped apart.In the gouge,a galaxy swirled,motes of light circled around a central brightness,each a spirit of Karandras"

And the same idea was somewhere around in older background if i'm not mistaken


Add to that the fact that PotW reinforces the,also not new,idea that Phoenix lords are able to manipulate other people into becoming vessels for their rebirth (or better,eldars are drawn to their rests and are "cannibalized" when they get near)

So,if anything (hard to make suppositions not having red the book) Arhra might have affected by the demon possessing him when he resurrected his persona.Maybe he merged with it and became something (someone) new?If we take them as spirit beings it's not that far out in the field as a theory

Chrysalis
31-03-2013, 07:42
So,if anything (hard to make suppositions not having red the book) Arhra might have affected by the demon possessing him when he resurrected his persona.Maybe he merged with it and became something (someone) new?If we take them as spirit beings it's not that far out in the field as a theory

Although the end of the story is bad for Arhra, it sounds like a nice revenge for Eldar: Slaanesh is used to consume eldar souls, so for once, it's an eldar who's devouring a demon! :)