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pingualoty
27-03-2013, 19:20
I know this has been mentioned before but this was posted today on my locals (UK) facebook page:




Within the next few months you will notice a few changes to your local Games Workshop. The first of these will be arriving in the next couple of weeks.

The most important of these changes is that we will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news as it inevitably means that you local store will be hosting fantastic new activites and events designed to give you a whole host of new hobby challenges and our trained staff will be on hand to support you and make sure that you get the most out of this awesome new programme.

I am sure that many of you will have already noticed a huge surge of GCN clubs we have recently been helping promote and start. We have done this to ensure that all your current hobby activites are continued to be supported in appropriate locations available to all.

Finally I wish to allay any fears or rumours some of you may have or have heard. Namely that Games Workshop is "getting rid of its regulars". Please do not be concerned as this is not the case. GW intends to support ALL of their collectors be they new or old, and the coming changes are entirely geared towards us being able to do this for now until forever - YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY NOT BEING TOLD TO LEAVE.

I know that some of you may have questions after reading this, please do not post them below - instead please talk to a member of staff.

Hopefully you trusted me in Kings Lynn, and I ask you trust me now, this will be a great an wonderful journey for the store (there is going to be some seriously cool stuff coming) and as ever we have all your best interests at heart.

Thank You


So ye, the Hobby Centre's are becoming full on Stores these days.

buddy_revell
27-03-2013, 19:28
seems fair enough

theunwantedbeing
27-03-2013, 19:31
I think they could have worded that a little better

agurus1
27-03-2013, 19:35
link please?

CaptainFaramir
27-03-2013, 19:53
link please?

Your wish is... (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/GWKingsLynn?fref=ts)

Whitwort Stormbringer
27-03-2013, 19:53
I am sure that many of you will have already noticed a huge surge of GCN clubs we have recently been helping promote and start.
Apologies for my ignorance, but what does "GCN" stand for here?

Charax
27-03-2013, 20:02
Gaming club network. It's a network of gaming clubs

CaptainFaramir
27-03-2013, 20:02
Apologies for my ignorance, but what does "GCN" stand for here?

Gooogled That For You (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Gaming-Club-Network/194563273895133)

RunepriestRidcully
27-03-2013, 20:16
Really? In Cheltenham there is only the one gaming club, and they stopped having the poster for that in the store a while ago, plus it is a pain to get to as well, being out of town (not actually that far walkign for me, but it's through winding country lanes) and off the bus routes and not non driver friendly, so I don't see how they have working cheltenham..

buddy_revell
27-03-2013, 20:17
so, make your own gaming club...?

EmperorNorton
27-03-2013, 20:21
I think they could have worded that a little better

Whatever do you mean? They said it was good news.

RunepriestRidcully
27-03-2013, 21:25
Quite who will beleive that I don't know.....

Confessor_Atol
27-03-2013, 21:42
This is great news as it inevitably means that.......

...........GW products are not for gamming, they are for padding our investor's wallets. Now please leave the building.

fgsfds-
27-03-2013, 21:43
That's a shame. GW's been doing some pretty questionable changes lately, with this open gaming ban and the whole sales-thing (luckily this apparently does not affect Finland, it'd be just unfair as we have only one GW Shop but many retailers). Even though they promised some new AWESOME activities I think many, many regulars will be upset.

Scammel
27-03-2013, 21:52
It's a bit rich to call it 'good news', but I think people should bear in mind that 'events' almost certainly encompass leagues, daily tournaments and the typically wackier participation games. I don't think the lack of open gaming is necessarily going to compromise people's ability to get the kind of gaming experience they want - a quick appraisal of a given store's timetable will almost certainly yield a few things that will suit whatever someone might be looking for.

Herzlos
27-03-2013, 21:53
I also like how they referred to regulars as "collectors" and not "gamers".

buddy_revell
27-03-2013, 22:01
a shop that sells things shouldnt really have "regulars" that arent there to buy things though, surely?

Lord Inquisitor
27-03-2013, 22:10
We will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news...
Yay!

What an odd way of putting it.

Tae
27-03-2013, 22:20
Yay!

What an odd way of putting it.

Pretty much. I like how it matches up with GW US&Canadas recent changes to the ToCs in which it states it wanted to promote more people using B&M stores.

Apparently what they really mean is 'visit our store, buy our (overpriced) stock, play in our event with your recent purchase, then please leave'

Also I'd like to add in one more thing. I help run the only GCN club in our town and I know full well that we cannot, and will not, take all of GWs customers they're thrown out. There is still a huge gap between the place GW leaves its beginners and where they can start to attend a local gaming club - and this is only speaking of ability. i dont mind helping someone out with the odd thing, but monday is now, following the closure of GWs gaming night on Thursday, the only chance i get to play and i dont fancy spending it doing something that previously GW were doing. And im not even thinking of age here, but I know full well that a lot of parents in the local area wouldn't be that keen on their kids coming down (though we're all lovely, honest!).

So, in all honesty, this idea of GW to move people out of stores and into GCN will, in this area at least, have a direct knock on effect to their sales in that they're going to dry up as the kids have nowhere to play.

buddy_revell
27-03-2013, 22:21
well, yeah. they probably do, and should mean exactly that

5Pointer
27-03-2013, 22:25
I don't game in store anyway cause I have a house and friends that are far better suited to my needs (no over the top staffers, no hyper kids, no throatbeards). No skin off my nose if they stop open gaming.

nedius
27-03-2013, 22:32
That whole quote is just utter garbage.

It's like those messages like "For your convenience, instead of opening every day, we will now only be opeing once per year, when the moon is full and the day of prophecy is upon us", where the actual message and it's sentiment are the exact oposite of what they are saying...

Interestingly, it's nice to see that they are well aware of how much disatisfaction is generating; "Finally I wish to allay any fears or rumours some of you may have or have heard. Namely that Games Workshop is "getting rid of its regulars". Please do not be concerned as this is not the case. GW intends to support ALL of their collectors be they new or old, and the coming changes are entirely geared towards us being able to do this for now until forever - YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY NOT BEING TOLD TO LEAVE."

This shows they KNOW that people are not happy, and that this is how it is being percieved.

This new system is not better for everyone at all, and it certainly does not support the older/experienced hobbyist. The lessons I need/want are beyond the capabilities of the current staff at my local GW.

Most stores and companies are going out of their way to allow customers to come into the stores and engage with them in their own way. I can go sit in a book store, grab a coffe at their attached coffee shop, read a book I brought, or one just of the shelves. I can use their wifi, browse their digital texts... I can go into most games stores and have a happy little while playing on their demo machines. All over the place, stores are trying to innovate ways of getting the customer to come into the store and stay there. GW already had that!

Anything where customers are left feeling that they are being messed around, are less welcome, are having their way of engaging with the store restricted is going to create negative responces from customers. The fact that they need to BOLDLY say 'we are not asking you to leave' shows that they know that is how it sounds and feels - but saying that just makes it seem like they are, they just don't want you to realise it... And how else is 'please go game elsewhere' not 'please leave the store to do that'?

I know it's their store, I know it's for them to run as they wish. But boy, they seem determined to run it in a way to alienate and annoy their customers.

nedius
27-03-2013, 22:33
Oh, and I loved the "Please don't give us bad press by questioning and complaing below..." bit.

pointyteeth
27-03-2013, 22:59
We will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news...

Well, best case scenario this means they will be putting on so many events/campaigns/escalation leagues that there just won't be time for open gaming...

Realistically though, I don't see this being the case.

jack da greenskin
27-03-2013, 23:01
A shame... But if it gets people into clubs where they're introduced to online discounters, better game systems and cheaper models, it's inevitably a good thing IMO.

nedius
27-03-2013, 23:18
but it is not good for gw, nor good for club recruitment when people cant meet club members at open gaming nights...

Scammel
27-03-2013, 23:20
Well, best case scenario this means they will be putting on so many events/campaigns/escalation leagues that there just won't be time for open gaming...

Realistically though, I don't see this being the case.

It already is the case for me locally. For ages now you've had to book ahead because the odds are they'll be running an event that takes up all the space.


The lessons I need/want are beyond the capabilities of the current staff at my local GW.


So how does the lack of open gaming change this at all if it was already the case?

childsoldier
27-03-2013, 23:27
For your convenience, instead of opening every day, we will now only be opening once per year, when the moon is full and the day of prophecy is upon us...


Quoted for truth, but edited to my favourite part! They do seem to have an odd attitude towards their consumer base. As has been said getting people into the store and staying there is the goal of most businesses not just now when times are s#1t but always. GW had that to a level most other shops could only dream of. I remember buying stuff in Blanchardstown GW (RIP) when I was about 12 and whether it was an army deal or one measly character I was allowed sit there, paint with brushes and paint I'd brought myself, staffers would come over during lulls in trade to offer suggestions and gamed with me without trying to sell me tonnes of stuff afterwards. And some days when I didn't buy anything they were exactly the same - welcoming, accommodating and friendly. I always felt like I could pop in for a few minutes or a few hours and enjoy myself.

Now there's just 1 GW store in Ireland, and last time I was in there I was chastened "not to read the whole thing" after perusing the new CSM Codex for all of five minutes. But of course the guy was totally right, I wasn't just browsing the new pics and seeing how the characters compare to previous editions. The eidetic memory of most gamers is what's causing GW problems! Whenever I pass the store in Dublin (or indeed any stores I see elsewhere) I always, without fail, go in, out of respect of the great times I remember having in there. But the customer experience which GW had and could be so proud of has been severely eroded over time. Open gaming was one of the last remains of this old experience, and while I haven't been able to do this in the last few years, I fondly remember meeting new players and fighting armies beyond what I'd normally encounter and having a great time.

Another nail in the coffin of GW stores. It's all well and good to say "honest, we're not trying to drive you away", but their policies sing a different tune. Now maybe I'm being overly cynical and they'll actually fill the void with lots of great gaming opportunities for new and old alike... But I doubt it!

RunepriestRidcully
27-03-2013, 23:45
so, make your own gaming club...?

And where am I to find the space to host a club? I'm a student, an archaeology one at that, meaning most of my summer is spent in fields digging, so I couldn't organise it, and don't have the space for a gaming club at home.

logan054
27-03-2013, 23:46
It's a bit rich to call it 'good news', but I think people should bear in mind that 'events' almost certainly encompass leagues, daily tournaments and the typically wackier participation games. I don't think the lack of open gaming is necessarily going to compromise people's ability to get the kind of gaming experience they want - a quick appraisal of a given store's timetable will almost certainly yield a few things that will suit whatever someone might be looking for.

I think your kidding yourself, its simply a way to make the shops less attractive to vets, I know my local GW was told to direct customers to the local indie store.

Kegslayer
27-03-2013, 23:50
Within the next (http://www.warseer.com/forums/#) few months you will notice a few changes to your local Games Workshop. The first of these will be arriving in the next couple of weeks.

The most important of these changes is that we will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news as it inevitably means that your local store will now be only there for you to buy our overly expensive plastic models and then leave. Our untrained staff will be on hand to support you and make sure that we get the most out of you that we can.

I am sure that many of you will have already noticed a huge surge of GCN clubs we have recently been closing down so as not to promote the GW hobby. We have done this to ensure that all our stock holders are a happy bunch and it means we get to fleece you some more in store.

Finally I wish to make sure your fears are in actual fact true. Namely that we Games Workshop are "getting rid of its regulars". Please do be concerned as this is obviously the case. GW intends to support only the new, young and gullible soon to be collectors and the coming changes are entirely geared towards exactly that and we will do this now and forever. YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY NOT BEING TOLD TO LEAVE. YOUR JUST NOT WELCOME.

I know that some of you may have questions after reading this, please do not post them below - instead please talk to a member of staff.

Hopefully you trusted me in Kings Lynn, and I ask you trust me now, quite simply because we Games Workshop know you are stupid enough to do so.

Thank You

DeathGlam
27-03-2013, 23:52
I have never really understood why anybody over the age of 15 plays in a GW store, gaming clubs are so much better, im not saying this is a good thing by GW, just don't get why people would be so up in arms especially as if there is a big enough playerbase in the area you live for there to be a GW gaming community then just set up a gaming club among the community, as offers more freedom from the things people hate/nerdrage about GW over.

75hastings69
28-03-2013, 00:14
Lol, this is so awesome! It's like GW are actively trying to **** people off!

logan054
28-03-2013, 00:28
I have never really understood why anybody over the age of 15 plays in a GW store, gaming clubs are so much better, im not saying this is a good thing by GW, just don't get why people would be so up in arms especially as if there is a big enough playerbase in the area you live for there to be a GW gaming community then just set up a gaming club among the community, as offers more freedom from the things people hate/nerdrage about GW over.

I only ever go in them when I move and I'm looking for a new people to play warhammer, however so far I am yet to meet anyone who I want to know my address at my current GW ;)

Grimtuff
28-03-2013, 00:40
a shop that sells things shouldnt really have "regulars" that arent there to buy things though, surely?

Troll harder next time. But I'll bite for the sake of it; GW stores are more than "just a shop that sells things". It's their entire shtick. Without the stores offering additional things like they did for you come in, you might as well just buy online.

Oh, wait... :rolleyes:

IJW
28-03-2013, 00:49
And where am I to find the space to host a club? I'm a student, an archaeology one at that, meaning most of my summer is spent in fields digging, so I couldn't organise it, and don't have the space for a gaming club at home.

Why would you need to organise a new club in Reading? There's a perfectly good existing one at the Uni: http://www.rusu.co.uk/societies/6539/

RunepriestRidcully
28-03-2013, 01:14
I was talking about Cheltenham for when I go home for the holidays (and am not on digs).
Anyone else thinking GW'S competitors have got in charge? Either that of someone in GW has decided they want to destroy the company for the lols, nothing they do or say makes sense really anymore..

logan054
28-03-2013, 01:27
Well it seems they no longer want to run hobby centers, I think changing to shops makes GW lose a lot of its appeal, I think the one thing that has kept me playing warhammer over the years is the knowledge that if I'm ever in a another town its relatively easy to get a game.

Looks like I'm going to more tournaments so I guess that money comes out of my hobby fund, guess thats a lot less money for GW, I guess that also gives me more reason to buy stuff from other suppliers as well, meh.

Inquisitor Samos
28-03-2013, 01:33
Perhaps they have been reading Dogbert's Top Secret Management Handbook and The Dilbert Future, and found their Shifty Paradigm confirmed . . .

IJW
28-03-2013, 01:57
I was talking about Cheltenham for when I go home for the holidays (and am not on digs).

Ah, right! In that case...

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/110868365639787 (Gloucester Games Bunker)
http://www.cheltenhamwarchiefs.co.uk/
http://freespace.virgin.net/candc.russell/
http://gloswar.20m.com/

That should get you started, there's quite a lot of clubs in the G&C area.

JWhex
28-03-2013, 03:58
Anytime a company has to advertise the following statement,

"YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY NOT BEING TOLD TO LEAVE."

something has gone seriously wrong. The really pathetic thing is that GW do not have clue one how to repair what has gone wrong. Even if they want and need to do away with open gaming, the logical thing would be to repair the damage first, then move ahead with the changes.

Scammel
28-03-2013, 09:08
I think your kidding yourself, its simply a way to make the shops less attractive to vets

Again, not in my experience. When our GW stopped spur-of-the-moment pick up games, it was genuinely replaced by a solid number of events that covered some solid competitive games and some wackier stuff too.


Anytime a company has to advertise the following statement,


This is just a FBook post from one guy at a single GW, not some message imparted from above.

Bartali
28-03-2013, 09:34
Lol, this is so awesome! It's like GW are actively trying to **** people off!

It's hilarious. Just when I thought GW couldn't push customers away further, they do ! I reckon someone at GW has got a bet going

167537

spaghettyhoop
28-03-2013, 09:35
Unless I'm reading this wrong then it's from a certain stores Facebook page so will be that one local store only. Choices like this are made by that stores manager aren't they?

As far as I know my local one isn't changing, in fact when I popped in at the weekend the manager was banging on about all the open Gaming they have and trying to get me to come down one day.

Scammel
28-03-2013, 09:41
Unless I'm reading this wrong then it's from a certain stores Facebook page so will be that one local store only. Choices like this are made by that stores manager aren't they?

There appears to be a greater drive towards events throughout all the stores, but yes. Considering it's one guy reaching out the regulars he no doubt personally knows, I don't why people immediately assume he's being disingenuous.

Herzlos
28-03-2013, 09:58
a shop that sells things shouldnt really have "regulars" that arent there to buy things though, surely?

But surely the focus is on gaming? Gamers can still be regulars and buy things. Referring to them as collectors gives the impression the focus of GW is buying, not gaming. We know they are only there to sell us kits, but it's nice to pretend they support the "Hobby" they advertise.


Well it seems they no longer want to run hobby centers, I think changing to shops makes GW lose a lot of its appeal, I think the one thing that has kept me playing warhammer over the years is the knowledge that if I'm ever in a another town its relatively easy to get a game.

I'm sure that's the way it's going, with the increased emphasis on collecting. I think they are positioning themselves to become regular stores or intro stores at most in an attempt to save money. Or maybe to try and look like the good guys when they start introducing open gaming in their stores...

alexh
28-03-2013, 10:02
Unless I'm reading this wrong then it's from a certain stores Facebook page so will be that one local store only. Choices like this are made by that stores manager aren't they?

As far as I know my local one isn't changing, in fact when I popped in at the weekend the manager was banging on about all the open Gaming they have and trying to get me to come down one day.

The Middlesbrough store changed at the beginning of February, they might call it 'open gaming' but you have to book a table in advance and can only have it for a certain amount of time. The paint stations also have to be pre-booked and on a Saturday, 'adult gamers' are only allowed in after 2.30pm. Whoever you spoke to at the weekend is not the manager as he is on sick leave at the moment, I suspect that he is the guy filling in from another store and (from my brief encounter with him last week) has less of a clue on how to run things than the manager.

Scammel
28-03-2013, 10:03
Referring to them as collectors gives the impression the focus of GW is buying, not gaming. We know they are only there to sell us kits, but it's nice to pretend they support the "Hobby" they advertise.


Not all collectors are gamers, but all gamers are collectors. Surely it makes more sense to encapsulate as many as possible?

williamsond
28-03-2013, 10:34
This sounds to me like a guy getting the bad news from his superiors and trying to make the best of a bad thing, he knows that it's going to anoy the older regulars however (as mentioned above) he's probably friends with some of these people and doesn't want to upset them. Most GW staff are not bad people just generally they end up in bad situations driven by company policy. I don't play in GW shops myself and don't even like shopping in them for the most part but i apperciate there are many people who do, I can only hope this drives people to local clubs and local independant retailers and that GW management take a hit to the bottom line, which is the only place that will make them think about the way they are running their company.

IJW
28-03-2013, 10:50
OK, would everyone saying 'he' please go and read the original announcement? I know female GW staff are pretty rare, but it's really starting to grate... :(

Herzlos
28-03-2013, 11:01
Not all collectors are gamers, but all gamers are collectors. Surely it makes more sense to encapsulate as many as possible?

Not all gamers are collectors either. Calling your customers collectors rather than gamers just implies that your role is to facilitate them grow their collections, not to play games. It's all part of this move of GW away from gaming to collecting, possibly to try and treat the figures as sculptures and not toys because of things like the chapterhouse case.

MiyamatoMusashi
28-03-2013, 11:08
Unless I'm reading this wrong then it's from a certain stores Facebook page so will be that one local store only. Choices like this are made by that stores manager aren't they?

I think you vastly overestimate how much power and freedom the typical GW store manager has.

It's not a franchise, where you get to put the GW brand on your shop and otherwise run it however you like. It's a chain, where vast swathes of rules about running the store are dictated from above. Not absolutely everything, to be sure - GW staff aren't robots - but there really isn't much left open for manager fiat.

rtmonkeyboy
28-03-2013, 11:16
I'd like to quote Battlestar Galactica at this point... "All this has happened before, All this will happen again..."

I've been involved with GW based hobby since Rouge Trader was launched, on both sides of the fence! Sadly GW oscillates between the two positions ( ie. love vets & store based gaming, and love newbies & intro gaming only) over a 5 year period or so. I noticed the shift towards newbies & intro starting about 18 months ago, coupled with an ongoing purge of existing staff trained under the prievious culture as new managers with current thinking programmned into them come "on post", so vets & established gamers are going a tough time for at least another 2 years. No amount of posturing, threatening to "go elsewhere" has EVER affected this process, and sadly never will! GW is just so monolithic now that it would take them months to realize that their a*se was on fire! I long ago made the choice to love the product not the company! As for the changes, I get through them by being a big friendly but IMMOVABLE object! When I can I big up the product to customers in store (while using that paint station that magically opens up when I walk in coz I help the kids when they get stuck with hobby stuff), and avoid bitching about the company in store. An if push comes to shove, I phone head office if the staff are pushy or rude to me, which so far has accounted for one instant dismissal, one re-training as a teacher and a change in store policy over forgeworld ( I phoned forgeworld to tell them I had been told not to use their products in store, not the rules the actual product/conversion kits!). It's a pain in the bum, but I rub along.

RT.

Scammel
28-03-2013, 11:24
Not all gamers are collectors either.

If they are playing with models, they have collected them at some point. I don't see what CHS has to do with it, it strikes me that people are trying really hard to work it into their interpretations of GW's policies these days.


I think you vastly overestimate how much power and freedom the typical GW store manager has.


From what I gather, the higher-up bods have urged the managers to place a greater emphasis on events and that if open gaming has to be cut down to facilitate it, so be it. I think the decision to actually stop open gaming is down to the managers themselves, who determine whether or not they've enough space and manpower to do both.

Herzlos
28-03-2013, 11:51
If they are playing with models, they have collected them at some point. I don't see what CHS has to do with it, it strikes me that people are trying really hard to work it into their interpretations of GW's policies these days.

They may have bought figures to game with, but collecting implies that they'll buy more than they need to game with and that there's a growing collection. I used to be a GW collector in that I'd try and have some of everything available to my army, as well as limited edition / rare stuff, but now I just game and don't buy anything that's not immediately used to game with.

I think a lot of GW policy is influenced by the CHS case as it's going to set a serious precedent however it goes. On of GW's main arguments in the CHS case is that they figures are sculptures and open to copyright defence, but not toys (which aren't). Gamers play games with toys (or tokens or some other utility object), collectors collect sculptures purely because of what they are / how they look. Treating customers as collectors reinforces the idea that what GW produces are collectible sculptures and therefore can by copyrighted.


I'd also be surprised if managers have much say on open gaming, because it's being dropped broadly across the chain. Maybe that's because they've been told to, or maybe just because their staffing levels have been cut to the point it's no feasible. But I don't think it's a co-incidence that there are a wave of individual shops suddenly dropping open gaming.

Emperors Teeth
28-03-2013, 11:57
The most important of these changes is that we will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news...

I can see the board meeting...
"Tell them we don't want them to enjoy the game the way they want to... but make it sound like it's good news."

Scammel
28-03-2013, 11:58
I think a lot of GW policy is influenced by the CHS case as it's going to set a serious precedent however it goes. On of GW's main arguments in the CHS case is that they figures are sculptures and open to copyright defence, but not toys (which aren't). Gamers play games with toys (or tokens or some other utility object), collectors collect sculptures purely because of what they are / how they look. Treating customers as collectors reinforces the idea that what GW produces are collectible sculptures and therefore can by copyrighted.


GW have referred to 'collections' and 'collectors' for many, many years before CHS. The fact that the term's been used in a FBook post hardly translates to a company-wide directive to convince whoever determines what is copyrightable or not that their products are sculptures and not toys.


But I don't think it's a co-incidence that there are a wave of individual shops suddenly dropping open gaming.

Nor do I, but I think it's case of managers being told to give it low priority rather than being told to drop it outright. There's almost certainly no set timetable if the latter was the case, it seems to be quite sporadic when it occurs.

IJW
28-03-2013, 12:02
I really really don't think the wording has anything to do with Chapterhouse. Like Scammel says, they've described their customers as 'collectors' since before CHS existed.

Herzlos
28-03-2013, 12:03
You're right in that they've referred to collectors before, and I've seen sources mention that a significant proportion of sales is by collectors rather than gamers, but it just seems like an odd term to use when referring to the customers of a gaming shop in a correspondence about gaming. Maybe I'm reading too much into it though, but I just don't like the direction things are aiming in r.e. the "Hobby" becoming about collecting rather than gaming.

Killgore
28-03-2013, 12:10
People should attempt to ween themselves from the warm embrace of GW store gaming and grow up. Are people so socially inept that they can't form a facebook group of local gamers who they normally play at GW stores and arrange to game elsewhere? Form your own club or find one in the local area or even game round each others house.

I'm moving to London in the next few weeks, leaving behind a regular gaming club and my own personal stash of home gaming terrain worth hundreds. I'm going to search for a new club, and if I can do it so can others.

alexh
28-03-2013, 12:34
Are people so socially inept that they can't form a facebook group of local gamers who they normally play at GW stores and arrange to game elsewhere?

I think this is quite an insulting statement that gets bandied about every time this kind of topic comes up. The reasons that I gamed at GW were that friends' houses were not suitable due to lack of space and the local GCN club is run by people that I have had cause to disagree quite strongly with in the past. As for setting up my own club, I have neither the time or the resources to do so. Fortunately, a new store has recently opened up with a large gaming area.

Brother Asmodeus
28-03-2013, 12:50
And if all of your ran your own shop that filled up with people not spending money but absorbing a lot of your time you handle this by _______________

There is no perfect solution to this.

Its YOUR HOBBY but they however ARE GW'S STORES. If you want YOUR HOBBY open YOUR OWN STORE maybe?

EmperorNorton
28-03-2013, 13:00
It's not the customers who made the stores out to be "hobby centres". GW did that. Still does. Being able to play in these hobby centres has been perceived as part of the value of the product, which is considerably more expensive than comparable products made by companies without the added value of hobby centres. It's not really surprising people are disappointed when this added value is taken away.

williamsond
28-03-2013, 13:07
On the subject of club finding it can be done with a bit effort and generally the ability to drive, I'm in the army and reguarly have to find new clubs when I move, just having a look on line will normally turn up one thats at least within driving distance. if you still can't find a club there's always the tourney circut, I know it gets a bad rep but there are alot of people who play them just for fun and the oportunity to have some games against new people and so long as you don't mind losing your first game(i normally get smashed myself) generally down the bottom end of the tables you find some fun games against nice folk who aren't too bothered about spam lists of necron flyers. As for gaming in GW stores there really is alot more out there and while i disagree with them killing off pick up games the future out in the wider gaming comunity is bright.

Maccwar
28-03-2013, 14:27
Being able to play in these hobby centres has been perceived as part of the value of the product, which is considerably more expensive than comparable products made by companies without the added value of hobby centres.

Excellent this should make it easier to persuade people to look at alternative ranges now the "but I can't use that in the store" argument has gone. This change may have more of an effect than GW intended.

Whitwort Stormbringer
28-03-2013, 14:29
tl:dr - a bunch of big "if's" and nothing concrete, but if they stick to their guns in terms of what they're saying I think this could be a good thing.

==================================================

I'm normally pretty critical of GW, and this scenario really has little to no actual or potential impact on me since I don't game in a GW store. That said, I'm erring on the side of "cautiously optimistic" given the context and source of the quote from the OP.

If (and this is still a big "if") there is any genuine truth behind what is being said, that the store is a) going to increase the number of organized, hosted gaming events, and have diverse game offerings to appeal to newbies and long-time gamers alike, and b) actually, actively promoting local clubs as a resource for gamers who have "outgrown" regular gaming at the local GW store, then both of those together can only be a good thing. People lament the days that GW was about having a good time playing games (I mostly hear this in relation to WD criticism, but it seems equally applicable to the games you get to play in-store), but when one store says that they're shifting the focus from open gaming, which is usually just two guys meeting up to play the same old-same old, to hosted, themed events in-store, everyone's upset. When GW has, for as long as I've been a wargamer, basically refused to acknowledge that tabletop wargaming exists as a hobby beyond what GW provides, I find it remarkably refreshing, and potentially a sign of a shift in attitude, that they at least claim to be promoting local clubs, where many non-GW games and miniatures are almost certainly used.

Now, obligatory grain of salt and all that, the actual impact of this decision is yet to be seen, but it seems awfully short-sighted for people to be lamenting the loss of open gaming in a GW store if said GW store is taking the aforementioned steps. The most fun I ever had gaming in a GW store, which was years ago, was partaking in a campaign that the store hosted, not going in to play a standard game against other regulars. I'm not likely to return to GW gaming outside of my house, with my friends and family, anytime soon, but if the measures that this store talks about become more widely implemented, I can see myself eventually coming back into the fold, at least for the occasional fun event that they're hosting.

Lord Inquisitor
28-03-2013, 15:23
It's a PR fumble though. I mean really, how hard is it to do this:


WE ARE GOING TO HAVE COOL IN-STORE CAMPAIGNS
WE ARE GOING TO HAVE COOL IN-STORE GAMING AND PAINTING EVENTS
WE ARE SUPPORTING AND PROMOTING LOCAL CLUBS - CLICK HERE!

We will require our gaming space for all the awesome events we have planned so we won't be able to provide tables for pick-up games anymore but we look forward to seeing you at one of our AWESOME IN-STORE EVENTS!

Instead they've said this:


The most important of these changes is that we will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news ... Games Workshop is "getting rid of its regulars" ... YOU ARE CATEGORICALLY NOT BEING TOLD TO LEAVE ... please do not post [questions] below ... we have all your best interests at heart.

Brother Asmodeus
28-03-2013, 15:51
It's not the customers who made the stores out to be "hobby centres". GW did that. Still does.

Apple call their staff 'geniuses'. They are not. It is corporate branding in both cases. Ultimately they are a shop. Apple 'geniuses' are staff.

If Public Enemy taught us anything it was 'don't believe the hype'...

Ghal Maraz
28-03-2013, 16:06
Apple call their staff 'geniuses'. They are not. It is corporate branding in both cases. Ultimately they are a shop. Apple 'geniuses' are staff.

If Public Enemy taught us anything it was 'don't believe the hype'...


And still, GW insists so much on that "Hobby Center" thing, it's borderline ridiculous unto itself. And, at the same time, they make moves like these.

Scammel
28-03-2013, 16:06
It's a PR fumble though. I mean really, how hard is it to do this:


'Pah, it's all 'GW can do no wrong' marketing rubbish! Look how they snuck in that part about cancelling open gaming! It's a secret ploy to tell us to get out of the stores! They need to communicate with us better!'

This statement might not have been the best thing imaginable (it certainly could have clarified exactly what events would be replacing the OG), but it treats the readers like adults, addresses the fears they might have directly and asks that they direct questions in a sensible manner as opposed to spamming the page with the staff member(s) unable to answer them all.


And still, GW insists so much on that "Hobby Center" thing, it's borderline ridiculous unto itself.

You can build, paint and play with your models there. Is there much else missing?

Whitwort Stormbringer
28-03-2013, 16:09
It's a PR fumble though. I mean really, how hard is it to do this:
Not hard, but the content of the message is basically the same, only rather than being frank your proposed version comes across as a cliched, sleazy sales pitch, which is exactly what GW, and the retail stores in particular, get criticized for all the time (keeping in mind that this is the FB page of one GW store, addressing its customers and regulars).


Instead they've said this:
:rolleyes:
Are you seriously not above selectively quoting someone to make it look as though they've said something with the exact opposite meaning to the original quote?

Lord Inquisitor
28-03-2013, 16:13
'Pah, it's all 'GW can do no wrong' marketing rubbish! Look how they snuck in that part about cancelling open gaming! It's a secret ploy to tell us to get out of the stores! They need to communicate with us better!'
Perhaps you are right. There's something to be said for coming out with the bad news openly and first, but it still feels like a poor spin on things.


Are you seriously not above selectively quoting someone to make it look as though they've said something with the exact opposite meaning to the original quote?

Heh, I know. But that's the bits that jumped out at me when I skim read the post. I mean, if it hadn't occurred to me that they might just be trying to get rid of the regulars it's sure occurred to me now!

If GW came out with a statement on their front page saying that - I don't know - they've had complaints that finecast is full of bubbles, warps in the sun and breaks easily even if they deny this it's still going to make people think "crap, finecast must be rubbish if they have to make a statement!".

Gossipmeng
28-03-2013, 16:21
Hmm, it will be interesting to see if they actually do ramp up their event schedule. My local store is pretty good with running campaigns and tournaments... but this will heavily depend on the store managers.

Herzlos
28-03-2013, 16:21
You can build, paint and play with your models there. Is there much else missing?

You can't build or paint unless you're getting a lesson, so no, they are out.

You can plan in store, yes, but only if it's part of the current campaign which may not be suitable for a variety of reasons: wrong game, size, requirements or timing.

Say I only have 1000pts 40K (a standard pick-up game), and I'm only available monday-wednesday, then I could have taken part in open gaming. Now I can't play if: the campaign is Fantasy, or 1500pt, or I need a character of a certain point range, or runs on a Friday.

Not that I play in store (the last campaign was a Fantasy escalation league and I'm not interested in starting it), but I can see regulars being justifiably upset about it.

Scammel
28-03-2013, 16:29
You can't build or paint unless you're getting a lesson, so no, they are out.


In every GW I've frequented for any amount of time, this isn't the case.


Say I only have 1000pts 40K (a standard pick-up game), and I'm only available monday-wednesday, then I could have taken part in open gaming. Now I can't play if: the campaign is Fantasy, or 1500pt, or I need a character of a certain point range, or runs on a Friday.


This could potentially be problematic, especially if time is as limited in your example, but I'd be very surprised if a given store had nothing whatsoever to offer for that size of 40k army multiple times in a week - if nothing else, there's almost always some form of large participation game with multiple players on each side. As I've said before, even at our local GW where pick-ups were banned, ringing ahead and asking if there was any chance of a spare table usually did the trick. Talking to the staff is almost always the best thing, you could even get them to outright create something for you on those days.

EmperorNorton
28-03-2013, 16:37
Apple call their staff 'geniuses'. They are not. It is corporate branding in both cases. Ultimately they are a shop. Apple 'geniuses' are staff.
Did Apple staff used to be geniuses, but aren't anymore?
Becaue GW stores actually used to be hobby centres.

Whitwort Stormbringer
28-03-2013, 16:47
Heh, I know. But that's the bits that jumped out at me when I skim read the post. I mean, if it hadn't occurred to me that they might just be trying to get rid of the regulars it's sure occurred to me now!

If GW came out with a statement on their front page saying that - I don't know - they've had complaints that finecast is full of bubbles, warps in the sun and breaks easily even if they deny this it's still going to make people think "crap, finecast must be rubbish if they have to make a statement!".
On the one hand I absolutely understand what you're saying. And from a PR perspective for a big company, I agree.

On the other I'd point out that one significant difference is that this is not a statement made by GW on their front page, but rather one store addressing changes that will be happening at that store. It also indicates that this store is aware of the complaints people are lodging against the retail chain in general, and maybe are hoping to prevent such a reaction in this case by acknowledging the concern and explaining what they plan on doing. As I said before, though, obviously the thoroughness of following through with that plan is yet to be seen.


You can't build or paint unless you're getting a lesson, so no, they are out.
I've never really understood the need to go into a store to build and paint models if you're not there for tips or a lesson - that's not an especially social aspect of the hobby, and something that I typically do at home. I meet at stores to play games. YMMV, but I don't see this as a great harm. I have a hard time believing someone would be incapable of fulfilling this aspect of the hobby at home, even if they rely on the store for opponents, terrain, and space to play.


You can plan in store, yes, but only if it's part of the current campaign which may not be suitable for a variety of reasons: wrong game, size, requirements or timing.
Presumably, this is the impetus for promoting local clubs to those who have armies built and painted, and are past the "learning to play" phase but also can't attend the scheduled events. Regulars might grumble a bit, sure, but in the end getting them out of the comfort of the GW store and meeting a new group of players, or starting a club on their own, where they're not restricted by everything that goes along with playing in a GW store would be a good thing.

Now, personally, I think it would have been a better move for them to simply scale back on the amount of open gaming to make time and space for the in-store scheduled events, and see how that worked. If the events were popular, then they could move forward with eliminating free play while simultaneously encouraging and promoting other venues for people to get that fix, whether it's the local club or just giving people an idea for how to get set up for gaming at home. Ideally (read: unrealistically) that would not simply entail peddling the GW realm of battle board, but instead maybe a "what you will need" flyer, or home made terrain workshops for the basic stuff like hills and trees, so people could then head out to the local hardware store and get going on their own gaming table at home. Not going to happen, I know, but if GW wanted to shift their retail stores towards a combination of an environment for introducing new players and hosting themed events while not estranging established gamers, I think that would be the way to do it.

Brother Asmodeus
28-03-2013, 16:53
Did Apple staff used to be geniuses, but aren't anymore?
Becaue GW stores actually used to be hobby centres.

Nope, they are what they have always been shops with gaming and painting tables in them. And they did not always have them either. In fact in November and December we used to have to pack the tables away in the early 90's to put more stock on display just like any other retailer.

I think they developed the hobby activity in their stores quite well ( I was one of the people who campaigned to have gaming and painting available in November and December to showcase the games) BUT I never used to think I was anything more than a shop.

And yes Apple do call them geniuses... http://www.apple.com/uk/retail/geniusbar/

RunepriestRidcully
28-03-2013, 16:55
Ah, right! In that case...

https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/110868365639787 (Gloucester Games Bunker)
http://www.cheltenhamwarchiefs.co.uk/
http://freespace.virgin.net/candc.russell/
http://gloswar.20m.com/

That should get you started, there's quite a lot of clubs in the G&C area.
Thanks, I'll try have a look and try them out, Warcheifs I used to go to but it's location is not non driver friendly (would be an okay walking distance if there was pavement.) though they do look like they focus on historicals. The Gloucester ones look good, but again it is the transport problem, as my mum works too jobs as it is and I don't know anyone else who goes to them that drives, but shall defiantly try the cheltenham wargamers association and try warcheifs again (if I can get a lift).

nedius
28-03-2013, 16:57
GW stores allowed the free attendance that created social links that then allowed players to transition to the clubs.

This policy is restricting the opportunities for social links to develop, thus restricting the ability of clubs to maintain themselves. There will be lots to start with, but as with any club memebership will decline, and the social links won't be there to support new members transitioning from the heavily organised and structured in store activities to the open, free activities of a club.

As stores become increasingly restrictive, they will loose their communitites. When the communities go, where will the new members come from?

Lord Inquisitor
28-03-2013, 17:03
On the one hand I absolutely understand what you're saying. And from a PR perspective for a big company, I agree.

On the other I'd point out that one significant difference is that this is not a statement made by GW on their front page, but rather one store addressing changes that will be happening at that store. It also indicates that this store is aware of the complaints people are lodging against the retail chain in general, and maybe are hoping to prevent such a reaction in this case by acknowledging the concern and explaining what they plan on doing. As I said before, though, obviously the thoroughness of following through with that plan is yet to be seen.
That's a fair point and I agree I would rather they be honest about it rather than sweeping it under the rug.

When I read it, it felt like they were trying to put a positive spin - "[We will] close our open gaming. This is great news..." - and failing to really achieve it. They've tried to say that closing the open gaming is "great news". That's just not going to be true for any gamer. On the other hand, improved store events and more support for clubs - that would be good news and might be a net positive even considering the bad news they're trying to share.

By all means tout whatever community events you're promoting as good news. Feel free to be honest about the bad news. But telling us that bad news is actually good news was what really sat poorly with me.

ColShaw
28-03-2013, 17:04
By all means tout whatever community events you're promoting as good news. Feel free to be honest about the bad news. But telling us that bad news is actually good news was what really sat poorly with me.

This hits the nail on the head. It's doublespeak, like we've gone into some sort of futuristic... dystopian... I see what you did there, GW. ;)

Herzlos
28-03-2013, 17:04
In every GW I've frequented for any amount of time, this isn't the case.

They've said this will be the case in other threads. No painting or pick-up gaming unless it's a lesson.

As for why the might want to paint in store; Not everyone might have the space to game at home, or might have a few hours downtime during the day (I had frequent 3-4hr gaps in my uni timetable) where they'd take advantage of painting. I wouldn't, because I'm the slowest painter in existence. Just because most don't see the need doesn't mean that others didn't find it beneficial that they could in the past.


This could potentially be problematic, especially if time is as limited in your example, but I'd be very surprised if a given store had nothing whatsoever to offer for that size of 40k army multiple times in a week - if nothing else, there's almost always some form of large participation game with multiple players on each side. As I've said before, even at our local GW where pick-ups were banned, ringing ahead and asking if there was any chance of a spare table usually did the trick. Talking to the staff is almost always the best thing, you could even get them to outright create something for you on those days.

Ringing ahead requires already having an opponent ready though. What if people can't pre-book these things and just pop down to stores on open gaming nights when they can.

I'll admit I'm playing devils advocate a bit here, I can kinda understand why they are doing it (cost cutting). But an important point is that to many gamers the ability to use the "hobby" part of the "hobby centre" was part of the buy-in and justification for the price. Yes GW stuff is more expensive in store and more expensive than other systems, but they gave you gaming space. However that's now changed.

I've never played in store, I went to once but my opponent never showed, but I'd have been open to the idea if it was allowed.

I am curious as to how the hosted events will go, particularly campaigns, and how they'll support people just turning up to play. If it's flexible enough I can see it as a good thing, but I don't get why it's instead of open gaming rather than as in addition to open gaming.

Whitwort Stormbringer
28-03-2013, 17:36
That's a fair point and I agree I would rather they be honest about it rather than sweeping it under the rug.

When I read it, it felt like they were trying to put a positive spin - "[We will] close our open gaming. This is great news..." - and failing to really achieve it. They've tried to say that closing the open gaming is "great news". That's just not going to be true for any gamer. On the other hand, improved store events and more support for clubs - that would be good news and might be a net positive even considering the bad news they're trying to share.

By all means tout whatever community events you're promoting as good news. Feel free to be honest about the bad news. But telling us that bad news is actually good news was what really sat poorly with me.
Agreed on all points - cutting open gaming out of the schedule by itself is not "great news", and there are numerous better ways of putting a positive spin on it by acknowledging that it allows these other things than the blunt "no more open gaming - this is great news" wording that they followed. "Unfortunately, the new schedule won't be flexible enough to host open gaming, but the upshot is..." etc. etc.


As for why the might want to paint in store; Not everyone might have the space to game at home, or might have a few hours downtime during the day (I had frequent 3-4hr gaps in my uni timetable) where they'd take advantage of painting. I wouldn't, because I'm the slowest painter in existence. Just because most don't see the need doesn't mean that others didn't find it beneficial that they could in the past.
I did say that I fully understand how people come to rely on a store for gaming, just not for modelling and painting. If you have time to haul your minis and modelling/painting supplies down to the store to work on them there, surely you have time to do it at home, as well? My point being, painting and modelling is not something that requires a large amount of dedicated space, nor a fellow participant. Even in the teeniest of apartments, if you have a table and a box of paints that you can stow in the closet, you're pretty much good to go.


I am curious as to how the hosted events will go, particularly campaigns, and how they'll support people just turning up to play. If it's flexible enough I can see it as a good thing, but I don't get why it's instead of open gaming rather than as in addition to open gaming.
That's the main point for me. I'm a little bewildered as to why they didn't gradually transition towards this with more and more hosted events, and less and less open gaming, hitting the breaks when those that really took advantage of the open gaming objected. But for better or worse, this is how they're forging ahead. I'll be interested to see just how invested they become in putting together new games and events to keep veterans a new players alike coming in for gaming.

logan054
28-03-2013, 17:45
Well speaking with the new manager in my local GW it looks like they are doing a similar thing, he said to start with its going to be pick and character and any unit for 500pts which will slowly build into bigger armies for a campaign, then it will be mini tournaments basically. Sounds ok and makes more sense considering the size of the store, so this might be the sort of thing they are planning for most stores.

Lord Inquisitor
28-03-2013, 18:09
A GW store has opened in my area and the manager there seemed very happy for people to come and play or paint there. The store's the size of a shoebox and has two small tables but he seemed pretty welcoming for anyone to play there.

logan054
28-03-2013, 19:45
Give it time mate, thats how mine was

Konovalev
28-03-2013, 20:04
I wonder what they will do when virtually no one shows up for these "store events" and the tables that were once used for pickup games sit unused. I'm not shedding any tears personally though, I haven't set foot in a GW store in years outside of the US Bowie battle bunker a couple times for a game with a friend.

I also don't quite understand how this is supposed to lower costs? Wouldn't a pickup game between 2 people require less staff involvement than an event run by the store? And if a staffer is overseeing an event, who will do what that staffer would have otherwise been doing (badgering people that walk in assumably)?

Mastodon
28-03-2013, 21:03
It's a PR fumble though. I mean really, how hard is it to do this:



Instead they've said this:

Seems like a comment about people jumping to conclusions based on reading things on internet forums, which hilariously is what this threads done for the last 3 pages.

Grimtuff
28-03-2013, 21:08
Seems like a comment about people jumping to conclusions based on reading things on internet forums, which hilariously is what this threads done for the last 3 pages.

If only GW corporate had some kind of platform for them to make official statements to stop them snowballing in a way only the Internet can make them? Oh wait...

Hoisted by your own petard again GW. *facepalm*

Lord Inquisitor
28-03-2013, 21:44
Seems like a comment about people jumping to conclusions based on reading things on internet forums, which hilariously is what this threads done for the last 3 pages.

That's what the internet is for isn't it? :p

Mastodon
28-03-2013, 22:20
That's what the internet is for isn't it? :p

Well yes lol. You just have to look in another thread to see a joke a mod posted be taken as fact barely a few days later. Same for this blanket ban on painting in stores unless you're getting a lesson, when from my brief look at stores facebooks seems to apply to a handful in the UK.

Nineswords
28-03-2013, 22:24
Gaming club network. It's a network of gaming clubs

That is simultaneously the best and least useful description I've ever seen! :D

I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but this applies to the local GW shop, and is not a national policy.

Grimtuff
28-03-2013, 22:28
I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but this applies to the local GW shop, and is not a national policy.

Not entirely true. We're seeing more and more of these threads of this nature popping up with the same things being said. It may very well be a national policy but it is not being administered simultaneously.

Mastodon
28-03-2013, 22:31
One could also look at that most stores are now closed for 2 days a week so decreased opening hours mean that any time the shop is open it has to have value. I cant see the value in standard open gaming myself. Events and campaigns that have a buy in or encourage a rotation of people so you dont get a clique that forms would be worth far more to the shop than a table at the back that the same people could hang around every day watching games.

buddy_revell
28-03-2013, 22:41
Not entirely true. We're seeing more and more of these threads of this nature popping up with the same things being said. It may very well be a national policy but it is not being administered simultaneously.
it could also be that one store tried it, and saw positive results. they then communicated this on to other managers in the same company (as they are encouraged to do) and then other managers tried it etc etc.

just playing devils advocate here; the gw store managers frequently communicate with each other about how they run the stores and bounce ideas off each other.

eron12
28-03-2013, 22:46
There appears to be a greater drive towards events throughout all the stores, but yes. Considering it's one guy reaching out the regulars he no doubt personally knows, I don't why people immediately assume he's being disingenuous.

I think it's the " we will be bringing to a close our open gaming. This is great news.." part of the post. I know whenever I'm immediately told how to feel about something it triggers a warning bell. The real issue is the large disconnect between closing open gaming and "great news." A more bittersweet approach describing one aspect of the store ending but other opportunities arising would have come off as far more honest than claiming that this was something everyone should be automatically excited about.

Scammel
28-03-2013, 22:57
A more bittersweet approach describing one aspect of the store ending but other opportunities arising would have come off as far more honest than claiming that this was something everyone should be automatically excited about.

Well, there's an element of that, but the author clearly acknowledges that people are going to be concerned. This isn't the usual 'We can do no wrong' spiel, it's pretty open in indentifying possible issues and addressing them.

nedius
28-03-2013, 23:54
Couple of people mentioned not getting the open painting and modelling thing.

For a long time, I was mainly a painter and modeller in store. The joy of it was the socialising. It was the busiest tale, often with about 6-8, or more, people sat around it. We'd chat, joke and enjoy ourselves (and, mostly only on games nights - rarely middle of the day or weekends, where the large numbers of kids made it less pleasant). We had Golden Deamon finalist level painters who, along with a few snide jokes, would take time and effort to teach you to paint to a level far beyond the capabilities of the majority of GW staffers. We had sculpters, kit bashers, scratch builders and purists, each of which could advise, critique or appreciate. I have been helped, and offered help of my own. I've learned from more experienced people, and supported those less so.

And for GW, it was free advertising/customer support. People would come and look at what was being painted and built, 9 times out of ten accompanied by appreciate noises and a furtive glance at those miniature ranges on the shelves.

Painting at home can be a rather lonely, anti-social activity. At the store it was open and social. It gave people something to do if a opponent didn't show, or there were no games available, and a chance to socialise with a different set of people to the pure gamers. This widened the social net. And widening the social net creates more opportunities for links to the local club to form and grow, ready for that person to transition off to the clubs GW are now so heavily pushing.

Loosing those social opportunities harms the communities that grow around GWs. Not everyone who GW 'DOES NOT ASK TO LEAVE' will have the social confidence or links to simply switch to a local club. I'm a case in point. I keep meaning to go to the new Friday club over in Cambridge, but just haven't got round to it as I don't have anyone to go with, so will just be blindly hoping some I know will be there. And I've got more certain social opportunities with friends down the pub to compete with that.

So, in my view, any action that reduces the opportunities for all local hobbyists; gamer, painter or modeller; to engage with their hobby in a safe, social setting is ultimately going to harm the local community.

JLBeady
29-03-2013, 02:31
What are these gaming clubs that so many speak of? When I go to the GW US website, and use their store finder for the 10 largest US metro areas and check the game club check box, no gaming clubs are listed. Is this some sort of long running prank? I mean when I go to the UK GW website and look up gaming clubs, there are more clubs listed than GW hobby centers. Are all the US gaming clubs banned! Are they hiding? I really want to do the right thing, and if I really should be doing my hobbying/gaming at a club after I buy my intro box,, a codex and battle force, I really would like go to a club just like GW and everyone else says I should do. :confused:

Shadey
29-03-2013, 03:13
As Grimtuff touched on, they are very quickly eroding the aspects that they identify that makes B&M stores better than online ones. The only way I can reconcile this is by explaining those reasons as a an excuse and a fallacy. No surprise really but it is still disappointing to have it confirmed.

I never quite believed they were trying to get rid of vets until now.

eron12
29-03-2013, 07:03
What are these gaming clubs that so many speak of? When I go to the GW US website, and use their store finder for the 10 largest US metro areas and check the game club check box, no gaming clubs are listed. Is this some sort of long running prank? I mean when I go to the UK GW website and look up gaming clubs, there are more clubs listed than GW hobby centers. Are all the US gaming clubs banned! Are they hiding? I really want to do the right thing, and if I really should be doing my hobbying/gaming at a club after I buy my intro box,, a codex and battle force, I really would like go to a club just like GW and everyone else says I should do. :confused:

I've always viewed gaming clubs as a European thing. Just do the American thing and play in your local indy store.

Nubl0
29-03-2013, 07:21
Did the majority of the so called "vets" actually play in gw stores? Most posts I see about them are that they are not worth it and full of children and pushy staff. A lot my fellow local gamers used to play down our gw, but then it moved down the road bait too a much smaller store and noboby plays down there now, they just set up a club. We are fortunate though that the manager was a cool guy and in no way pushy.

paddyalexander
29-03-2013, 09:09
I've always viewed gaming clubs as a European thing. Just do the American thing and play in your local indy store.

That's assuming a number of things.

1. A person has a local indy store.

2. That local indy store has gaming space.

3. That local indy is a professionally run friendly business that you want to support.

I have a local gaming store. It has very little gaming space. It also not only charges full retail but randomly seems to over charge on items from multiple ranges & some of the staff are very rude. It doesn't carry much stock and is not worth ordering stuff from. I had an order I had with them sold to someone else because I didn't put a deposit down... because I was not asked to when I made the order. It is a badly run business & so doesn't get my time or money.

The game store I do make regular large purchases from & game in has great friendly staff, a large gaming area, great range of games with reasonable stock levels, offer a basic discount and a loyalty card scheme but is 260km away.

I'm an outgoing guy with a pretty friendly personality, in almost every job I've worked in I've ended up in positions where I train new hires and/or I deal with complaints from the public. I'd still be nervous going to a club where I know nobody there already. I've done this in the past and found that introducing yourself on their chatboards/forums first and having some basic introductions and information exchange out of the way really helps.

I'd be extra cautious about going to a complete strangers house for the first time. The last thing you want to hear is a door locking behind you and a voice yelling out "he's here, now wake the gimp!!!" :eek:

Scammel
29-03-2013, 09:12
The last thing you want to hear is a door locking behind you and a voice yelling out "he's here, now wake the gimp!!!"

I dunno, I've had some equally weird experiences in GWs... :p

Morathi's Darkest Sin
29-03-2013, 09:27
So, do GCN's have some sort of sign on clause that make them GW games only (never been to one) or is GW effectively opening up their younger customer base to the world of greater wargamming and other companies games and models?

I also asked the local manager yesterday about games clubs at the local secondary school as my eldest will be there in a year and a half, and he mentioned he was trying to set up a local club, might be a coincidence, or might be a sign of other stores doing the same.

Scammel
29-03-2013, 09:44
So, do GCN's have some sort of sign on clause that make them GW games only (never been to one) or is GW effectively opening up their younger customer base to the world of greater wargamming and other companies games and models?


You can play whatever the heck you like.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
29-03-2013, 09:50
Hmm.. GW might regret this move then.

nedius
29-03-2013, 10:56
Hmm.. GW might regret this move then.

I think this is a concern GW dont give enough consideration to.

GW is a company that relies upon it's community. It relies on word of mouth advertising, on the community providing the gaming support that enables and encourages people to buy and play big armies.

A games club is created by the community, it doesnt create the community. It has even less advertising than a GW as it has no prominany high street location. they are often held in out of the way locations. They are, therefore, less accessable.

GW stores provided 2 things. 1, and open location for the community to grow and establish itself, and 2, closed market advertising.

Games clubs do no. 1, but to a lesser exent, and advertise other systems openly. From my own experience, since GW stopped letting me openly play or paint, I've not bought any gw stuff (just ebayed some of what I did own) and bought stuff from other companies instead.

My concern for GW is that they are turning a company built on being part of a hobby community into 'just a store'. IF GW begin to reduce their ability to create and hold a communty, then the company will suffer.

ihavetoomuchminis
29-03-2013, 12:39
And they aren't aware of how much hate is directed towards them. That means that in these Local games clubs people will be more inclined to talk about non-GW games and say things like "don't buy GW, this one is better" and that kind of things that don't happen in a GW store, because it is not allowed and because the people gaming and painting in a GW store is, usually, more pro-GW.

Scammel
29-03-2013, 17:02
And they aren't aware of how much hate is directed towards them.

The message itself suggests that they are entirely aware of the vitriol they attract. I do find it quite funny how GW is usually criticised for 'sticking their head in the sand and not acknowledging the competition' yet now that they've directed people to the clubs for part of their hobbying they've come under fire for it.

Art Is Resistance
29-03-2013, 17:46
Pretty much. I like how it matches up with GW US&Canadas recent changes to the ToCs in which it states it wanted to promote more people using B&M stores.

Apparently what they really mean is 'visit our store, buy our (overpriced) stock, play in our event with your recent purchase, then please leave'

Also I'd like to add in one more thing. I help run the only GCN club in our town and I know full well that we cannot, and will not, take all of GWs customers they're thrown out.


Wow, I bet you're a blast to be around...

Seriously, clubs only survive with an influx of new blood all the time, and you're actually wanting o discourage this?

Attitudes like this will contribute to the hobby dying out, as new players can't find established players to ask advice, be shown the mechanics of the games - even with GW allowing gaming in the shops, clubs should be open to all, not some kind of geek equivalent of the Garrick.

Art Is Resistance
29-03-2013, 17:54
So, do GCN's have some sort of sign on clause that make them GW games only (never been to one) or is GW effectively opening up their younger customer base to the world of greater wargamming and other companies games and models?

The GCN was setup by GW as a way of having an arms length, voluntary organisation which could be used to keep check on 'GW clubs' - the criteria to be a GCN club include having the correct insurances, CRB checks for committee members etc.. Which can / may guarantee safety for all ages.

They became independent a few years ago, but maintain close ties with GW (not sure if they still do, but they used to hold meetings and the AGM at WhW).

It was also a requirement that if you wanted to put on a table at GD UK, you needed to be in the GCN.

I honestly don't see an issue with GW moving 'open' gaming (ie non- purchase led ) out of the stores and into gaming clubs - it makes sense to use what may be limited space to promote what's new that month, or specific events.

But of course this is Whineseer so of course evil GW just want to destroy 'your' hobby and no other reason will be allowed.

xavos
29-03-2013, 18:16
They were fantastic places to play and paint your stuff, but I've branched out to other games and moved on. So should GW.

Tae
30-03-2013, 00:29
Wow, I bet you're a blast to be around...

Seriously, clubs only survive with an influx of new blood all the time, and you're actually wanting o discourage this?

Attitudes like this will contribute to the hobby dying out, as new players can't find established players to ask advice, be shown the mechanics of the games - even with GW allowing gaming in the shops, clubs should be open to all, not some kind of geek equivalent of the Garrick.

I, and the club I represent, have no issue with anyone wanting to join our club and I help take a full and active role in encouraging more people to come down.

Now, if you'll note what I wrote was that I, and my club, will not be taking "all of GWs customers they've thrown out". Nowhere did I state I didn't want new people joining, nor do I wish for it to become the Garrick.

And more to the point, why should we? If GW can't get them to a suitable level for club gaming (which in our experience they can't) why should we be responsible for doing their job for them?

Now I do understand that there is only some things people can learn outside GW in the 'real world' can learn and none of our members have any issue with helping anyone on occasion, but this is a gaming club not a teaching club and we expect, not unreasonably, that our members are self sufficient when they attend. Most of GW's 'kickouts' will, if history is any example, be nowhere near this stage.

Inquisitor Kallus
30-03-2013, 00:48
GW staff members jobs aren't 'to get people ready to join clubs', it is to get them involved in the hobby, sell people product and try to retain customers.

jack da greenskin
30-03-2013, 01:24
and try to retain customers.

You had me going for a moment there... ;)

Inquisitor Kallus
30-03-2013, 01:32
You had me going for a moment there... ;)

I used to work for them, it was part of the retail job description, think what you want it doesn't change the fact.

JWhex
30-03-2013, 02:07
. . . but this is a gaming club not a teaching club and we expect, not unreasonably, that our members are self sufficient when they attend. Most of GW's 'kickouts' will, if history is any example, be nowhere near this stage.

GW games are not that hard to learn. I am amazed that you obviously would not welcome some person who was a complete beginner and had no experience at all. This makes you guys sound like a bunch of snobby nerds.

Tae
30-03-2013, 02:16
GW games are not that hard to learn. I am amazed that you obviously would not welcome some person who was a complete beginner and had no experience at all. This makes you guys sound like a bunch of snobby nerds.

Yes, how snobby of me to want to spend my free time playing a game instead of doing a GW employees job for him :rolleyes:

But thanks for not quoting my entire post during which I clearly stated that none of our members would have a problem helping someone on an odd occasion, even if it was their first ever game. My point was simply that no club should act as a 'dumping ground' for GW to send its customers to for them to be taught the game as opposed to getting their staffers to do their job.

Bigglesworth
30-03-2013, 02:35
Yes, how snobby of me to want to spend my free time playing a game instead of doing a GW employees job for him :rolleyes:

But thanks for not quoting my entire post during which I clearly stated that none of our members would have a problem helping someone on an odd occasion, even if it was their first ever game. My point was simply that no club should act as a 'dumping ground' for GW to send its customers to for them to be taught the game as opposed to getting their staffers to do their job.

I imagine you might have capacity problems if loads of new people turned up at once, and you would have to either expand to accommodate them which would take a bit of effort if you were already happy with your current setup, or risk pissing people off who suddenly can't get a table...

Inquisitor Kallus
30-03-2013, 02:42
as opposed to getting their staffers to do their job.

Again, it is not their job

Torga_DW
30-03-2013, 03:30
I would be more inclined to suspect that this has to do with insurance. Is there a difference between a retail store and a gaming venue as far as insurance goes? Or a retail store that is also a gaming venue? Also factoring in staff numbers (which are overall dropping with the 1-man store approach). This is what i'd be investigating, and I suspect it'll come down to the additional overhead (ie the bottom line).

eron12
30-03-2013, 07:04
That's assuming a number of things.

1. A person has a local indy store.

2. That local indy store has gaming space.

3. That local indy is a professionally run friendly business that you want to support.



I agree those are all assumptions, however, this was in the context of American gaming. In the US I would bet money that if a person doesn't have a local indy in reasonable travel distance, there is no club within that distance either. Note the post stating that GW doesn't list any clubs in the 10 largest metropolitan areas in the United States. That doesn't mean there aren't some that aren't listed of course, just aht for most American gamers clubs are not a reasonable or even availible option.

Shadey
30-03-2013, 07:18
And if all of your ran your own shop that filled up with people not spending money but absorbing a lot of your time you handle this by _______________

There is no perfect solution to this.

Its YOUR HOBBY but they however ARE GW'S STORES. If you want YOUR HOBBY open YOUR OWN STORE maybe?

You are assuming two things there, firstly that said game is run by people who do not know the rules and need constant adjudication on the part of the staff. Veterans that don't know the game maybe? I can't see any other way that game would absorb a lot of a staff members time.

Secondly, that those newbie veterans are not buying anything? Ever?

The first premise is very unlikely, while certainly few vets will have an encyclopaedic knowledge of the rules but it isn't needed. The definition of a veteran is someone who IS experienced in the game.

On the second I will give you that veterans in general won't spend money every time but neither will new people. I know some veterans who are constantly buying stuff and the idea of a vet who never buys anything, well there may be a few out there but to assume all veterans have the same buying habits is a baseless generalization.

I have to ask, would a veteran who doesn't know the rules and doesn't buy anything, can they really be considered a veteran or indeed, partaking of the hobby at all?

Herzlos
30-03-2013, 09:23
I honestly don't see an issue with GW moving 'open' gaming (ie non- purchase led ) out of the stores and into gaming clubs - it makes sense to use what may be limited space to promote what's new that month, or specific events.

You can't see an issue with moving 'open' gaming from a dedicated venue thats open 36 hours a week (Kings Lynn, the place in question has really reduced opening hours. One man shop? the bigger ones are open about 50 hours), to a shared venue that's open maybe 4-5 hours a week? Or how that might inconvenience people?

Art Is Resistance
30-03-2013, 12:38
I have never seen the attraction of playing in any GW over and above WhW, so no, I really don't.

If you don't want your hobby spoonfed to you, and are prepared to put the fort in, playing at home or at a club is infinitely better than playing in any shop.

If you can't be arsed to build scenery or put the effort in, then maybe shops are for you, but not for me.

A shop is about maximising profit, whether you like that or not - that means moving open gaming to elsewhere such as a club, and keeping the tables for generating revenue.

I really don't have an issue with that. But maybe with the overriding sense of entitlement so many who post on here have, I'm in the minority.

Flame away boys, flame away, but I'm past having to rely on others to do my hobby chores for me.

Jobu
30-03-2013, 14:08
I really don't have an issue with that. But maybe with the overriding sense of entitlement so many who post on here have, I'm in the minority.

Flame away boys, flame away, but I'm past having to rely on others to do my hobby chores for me.

Wow, go 'murica. It is not a sense of entitlement, it is a break with tradition and as a lot of us see anathema to the hobby in general. I am glad the GW has attempted to get local clubs in loved and/or started to help compensate for this. I just hope that this will lead to more store led, activity centered events to attract not only new gamers but veterans. Let themm all watch a new game system or hobby item/skill to increase all of their interests.

6mmhero
30-03-2013, 14:16
+1 to Art.

I stopped playing in stores a while ago due to space more than anything and it lead to a good club being formed in our area that now offers more than GW can in terms of space and potential to run events.
I see so many people bemoan the fact that laying in GW is restrictive due to not allowing other companies figures or parts etc and then bemoaning the fact that they then cannot just turn up when ever they feel like it for a game.

Playing with toy soldiers is a hobby that should be fun and something you enjoy. If that means either getting a group of regulars to form a club then give it a go and you will be surprised. There are also a number of people in areas that will never set foot in a GW for a number of reasons but will attend a gaming club.
In the UK there are a lot of pubs that have function rooms empty during the week and will allow the use of the room without a charge providing people buy drinks etc (I know of at least two clubs that do this) meaning funds can go in to scenery etc.

Art Is Resistance
30-03-2013, 14:43
Wow, go 'murica.

Not quite sure what you're implying here, but I'm British....

It used to be tradition to send children up chimneys, but we don't do that anymore do we?

Shops are there to sell product - not be crèches or Lounges for those too lazy to look elsewhere for their gaming space.

It's your hobby, not GWs, they provide the toys, you provide the sandbox.

Whitwort Stormbringer
30-03-2013, 15:15
I, and the club I represent, have no issue with anyone wanting to join our club and I help take a full and active role in encouraging more people to come down.

Now, if you'll note what I wrote was that I, and my club, will not be taking "all of GWs customers they've thrown out". Nowhere did I state I didn't want new people joining, nor do I wish for it to become the Garrick.

And more to the point, why should we? If GW can't get them to a suitable level for club gaming (which in our experience they can't) why should we be responsible for doing their job for them?

Now I do understand that there is only some things people can learn outside GW in the 'real world' can learn and none of our members have any issue with helping anyone on occasion, but this is a gaming club not a teaching club and we expect, not unreasonably, that our members are self sufficient when they attend. Most of GW's 'kickouts' will, if history is any example, be nowhere near this stage.
I understand the concern that an influx of gamers will detract from what is supposed to be your free time, but there seem to be some contradictory sentiments, at least at face value, in claiming that a club is interested in attracting new members and encouraging growing the hobby, but not in helping to produce those members.

I find the claim that a GW store can't get someone ready for "club gaming" to be tenuous at best.
- What's so sophisticated or difficult about gaming at a club?
- Where are they supposed to acquire the skills that would allow them to be considered self sufficient by your club?
- What are these crucial skills that the GW gamers are lacking, which makes them unready for joining your club?
- What if someone with no tabletop gaming experience was interested in learning a non-GW game played at your club - would you turn them away?

Honestly, it comes across as though your club wants other entities to teach gamers a set of unspecified skills (which GW stores are apparently failing at), so that said gamers can then attend your club. That is an unreasonable expectation.

On a sidenote, surely from time to time members of the club decide to try out a new set of rules, which typically results in one or a few learning the game and teaching it to other club members (this happens at my club all the time). It doesn't seem as if that should be significantly less effort-intensive than simply helping out a former GW-store gamer get up to speed.

Herzlos
30-03-2013, 16:20
I have never seen the attraction of playing in any GW over and above WhW, so no, I really don't.

If you don't want your hobby spoonfed to you, and are prepared to put the fort in, playing at home or at a club is infinitely better than playing in any shop.

If you can't be arsed to build scenery or put the effort in, then maybe shops are for you, but not for me.

A shop is about maximising profit, whether you like that or not - that means moving open gaming to elsewhere such as a club, and keeping the tables for generating revenue.

I really don't have an issue with that. But maybe with the overriding sense of entitlement so many who post on here have, I'm in the minority.

Flame away boys, flame away, but I'm past having to rely on others to do my hobby chores for me.

You may not see the benefit of being able to play in store, but others may and the fact that the tables at my local stores are often full implies that they do.

I don't see how going to a permanent venue with pretty decent opening hours to play in their dedicated space on scenery that some people may not be able to store is having your hobby "spoon fed" to you, or how it differs from WhW or clubs, except that almost no clubs have a dedicated space so you're usually limited to an evening a week including set up and tidy up time with scenery that has to be easily stored.

I also don't see how it's entitled to be annoyed that a facility that was one of GW's main selling points (gaming in store has mentioned in most of their books over the last 2 decades) is being removed.


For instance, I have a RoB board at home, along with tonnes of scenery I can use for home gaming, which I do. But I live out in the suburbs. Say I want to meet a friend for a game in the main town, previously we could arrange it for any time the GW was open (most days and all weekend), now if open gaming is dropped we can only arrange it for the 5 hour window (Tuesday evening) the local club is open. Should I be happy about that?


The other thing, which I'm actually for, is that it's a massive own-goal for GW in terms of customer retention. I was always under the impression that part of the reason for keeping everything in-store was to avoid your customers becoming aware of the competition, and to enforce the GW only policy. Customers being sent to local independent clubs will be immediately subjected to other games, and there's no reason to only use GW figures in GW based games. You'd never be able to use an all Mantic army in a GW store, but you'd have no issues in an independent. That can only be good for the hobby, whilst it's obviously bad for GW (who are the driving force here).

herbtarkel
30-03-2013, 18:09
My local GW still has 4 tables up. And gaming on nights on a schedule. So no biggie.

I have to confess I've never actually gamed at a GW though.

EldarWolf
31-03-2013, 00:02
Pretty much. I like how it matches up with GW US&Canadas recent changes to the ToCs in which it states it wanted to promote more people using B&M stores.

Apparently what they really mean is 'visit our store, buy our (overpriced) stock, play in our event with your recent purchase, then please leave'

Also I'd like to add in one more thing. I help run the only GCN club in our town and I know full well that we cannot, and will not, take all of GWs customers they're thrown out. There is still a huge gap between the place GW leaves its beginners and where they can start to attend a local gaming club - and this is only speaking of ability. i dont mind helping someone out with the odd thing, but monday is now, following the closure of GWs gaming night on Thursday, the only chance i get to play and i dont fancy spending it doing something that previously GW were doing. And im not even thinking of age here, but I know full well that a lot of parents in the local area wouldn't be that keen on their kids coming down (though we're all lovely, honest!).

So, in all honesty, this idea of GW to move people out of stores and into GCN will, in this area at least, have a direct knock on effect to their sales in that they're going to dry up as the kids have nowhere to play.

The vast majority are screaming teenagers who disturb other players, have no concept of looking after expensive club-bought scenery and in some cases are thrown out for vandalism, about one or two in every ten are actually safe to have in any club.

Art Is Resistance
31-03-2013, 10:06
about one or two in every ten are actually safe to have in any club.


Based on what?

It's an incredibly blinkered view of younger players that seems to permeate through these boards - younger players are somehow worse than so called "vets".

I've seen these paragons of maturity and serious gaming do far worse damage to a club than any younger player, who, in my experience, is far keener to learn a new game and progress than their elder counterpart.


Back OT though - Yes, GW did promote in store 'open' gaming, but they've now changed their policy. Live with it.

Nogginthenog
31-03-2013, 11:44
I have never seen the attraction of playing in any GW over and above WhW, so no, I really don't.

If you don't want your hobby spoonfed to you, and are prepared to put the fort in, playing at home or at a club is infinitely better than playing in any shop.

If you can't be arsed to build scenery or put the effort in, then maybe shops are for you, but not for me.

A shop is about maximising profit, whether you like that or not - that means moving open gaming to elsewhere such as a club, and keeping the tables for generating revenue.

I really don't have an issue with that. But maybe with the overriding sense of entitlement so many who post on here have, I'm in the minority.

Flame away boys, flame away, but I'm past having to rely on others to do my hobby chores for me.

All true, and in normal circumstances your point would be entirely valid.

However, in the situation where GW has spent the last two decades promoting their stores as places to engage in the hobby, and even used the fact their brick and mortar stores are where you should be playing as a de facto reason for both the punitive trading restrictions on internet sellers AND the trading restrictions for Australia and New Zealand, then the picture is somewhat different.

'Internet sellers dont support your ability to game like we do ' , to 'go and find somewhere else to play the game' inside 12 months.

I suspect that is why people are correctly annoyed, they've been constantly told GW brick and mortars are there for gaming, only now to be told they arent.

The last time I set foot in an actual GW shop was to pick up the (3rd edition?) starter box with the dark eldars and Templars , so I cant say it bothers me much either way, but I can certainly see why GW are getting the criticism.

ihavetoomuchminis
31-03-2013, 13:08
Has GW any foot left to shoot at it?

RunepriestRidcully
31-03-2013, 16:34
Has GW any foot left to shoot at it?
I think they have moved to shooting themselves in the crotch and chest at this point...

6mmhero
31-03-2013, 20:09
The vast majority are screaming teenagers who disturb other players, have no concept of looking after expensive club-bought scenery and in some cases are thrown out for vandalism, about one or two in every ten are actually safe to have in any club.

Really?
I have met maybe a dozen gamers in my time working for GW and at the various clubs I have been a member of who display the attributes you mention. Most clubs I have been to tend to have an atmosphere which make them fun places to game not silent library types.
I have seen plenty of adults throw their toys out of their prams when games don't go their way including breaking scenery and throwing dice etc.
Our club activley encourages newbies to attend and we are always happy to arrange games for people and get them started and or help them out when they play their first games. As we are above a pub the only restriction is the younger members are escorted to and from the entrance etc.
One of the clubs I used to go to in Wolverhampton was mostly teenagers and they were good players and the club was a lot of fun.

ihavetoomuchminis
31-03-2013, 22:45
From my times as a GW staff, i remember way worse attitudes from those called "veterans" than from those called "childs". Younglins are, in most cases, great to deal with, because they treat you as if you were some kind of Warhammer Wise God. Too many "veterans" treat you as if you were guilty for the prices, their bad day, or every disgrace in the world, or as if you own them something just for having that job.

Inquisitor Kallus
31-03-2013, 23:11
From my times as a GW staff, i remember way worse attitudes from those called "veterans" than from those called "childs". Younglins are, in most cases, great to deal with, because they treat you as if you were some kind of Warhammer Wise God. Too many "veterans" treat you as if you were guilty for the prices, their bad day, or every disgrace in the world, or as if you own them something just for having that job.

How right you are my friend

nedius
01-04-2013, 09:43
you mean, just like every single person who works ina 'local' bar, pub or cafe? Or every teacher who has kids with parents who have even the tiniest complaint? or any poor person who works on a customer support line who gets personally blamed for any corporate failing?

I'm genuinely sorry to say that this is what every one who works in a customer focused environment must deal with - you get some who are cool and some who are an unending source of pain. But landlords cant ban every grumpy customer, teachers cant exclude every kid with difficult parents, and service lines cant put the phone down when someone complains - else every bar, school and service line would go out of business.

What every other buisiness or service on earth does is try to put in place support systems so that those employees can handle those customers so that they go away feeling thier complaints have been listened to and recognised and, if appropriate, actioned. I know my work does. Bad practice is to exasborate that problem and bad word of mouth advertising by ignoring it or trying to get tid of anyone who makes it.

ihavetoomuchminis
01-04-2013, 10:49
you mean, just like every single person who works ina 'local' bar, pub or cafe? Or every teacher who has kids with parents who have even the tiniest complaint? or any poor person who works on a customer support line who gets personally blamed for any corporate failing?

I'm genuinely sorry to say that this is what every one who works in a customer focused environment must deal with - you get some who are cool and some who are an unending source of pain. But landlords cant ban every grumpy customer, teachers cant exclude every kid with difficult parents, and service lines cant put the phone down when someone complains - else every bar, school and service line would go out of business.

What every other buisiness or service on earth does is try to put in place support systems so that those employees can handle those customers so that they go away feeling thier complaints have been listened to and recognised and, if appropriate, actioned. I know my work does. Bad practice is to exasborate that problem and bad word of mouth advertising by ignoring it or trying to get tid of anyone who makes it.

Of course we agree, i was just pointing out that those "kids are worse than veterans" claims are, in a word, false.

xavos
04-04-2013, 15:59
Do you think GW store supporters will buy their products from flgs' if they have to play there? I guess it might depend on their location.

Lord Inquisitor
04-04-2013, 16:20
In the UK, there are very few FLGSs, particularly ones with decent gaming areas. GW stores were the only shops to game in for most places in the UK in my experience, other than GW you're looking at gaming clubs, which are fortunately quite widespread.

In the US, at least in my narrow experience, you're really looking a lot more at FLGS to game at rather than GW or gaming club. Certainly, lack of gaming space in a GW pushes me to the FLGS, I buy where I play as do most people I know. I have a choice of FLGSs and a GW in the area and the GW gets exactly zero business as it has no gaming space to speak of or events that interest me (although as I mentioned before, the manager is very welcoming of gaming in his store). But does that bother GW? I doubt they care overmuch whether I buy from them or a retailer.

RevEv
06-04-2013, 07:14
I did post this before - but can't find it now (may be the internet connection where I am).

My home GW store has recently gone to single man working and, sadly, stopped the open gaming in store. However, rather than just letting the gaming die, the manager has worked really hard to get a number of GCN clubs set up in the city. He has even linked up with a local B&M Indy and they have set up gaming nights for the vets that used to play at the GW store. Younger players are catered for by a club exclusively for them. All of this is promoted in store and with the GW managements blessing

Rather than reducing the amount of gaming in the city the loss of open gaming in store has increased and strengthened the gaming community where I live.

wildphill
26-04-2013, 15:38
i've never been in a GW store where a game was taking place in all my years or had any customers if the schools weren't out im talking plymouth exeter reading and basingstoke stores you'd think they would be happy for the people to be in there nothing puts a customer off like an empty shop. but then if they want to sell the buisness maybe the dont want to give the wrong impression to a possible buyer who happens to scout out a store to see what thier getting

Memnos
26-04-2013, 15:50
As bad as I find this personally, there is a definite reason for this, and I place the blame squarely on us.

The GW property has an image issue. On Veteran's night, how many have gone in and discovered a distinct odor?

Would this odor be described as pleasant, or unpleasant?

Do you think that image would be conducive or not conducive to getting new customers?

wildphill
27-04-2013, 14:05
the wife calls it nerd stink, so wont go anywhere near a GW store with me or the kids, even though i tell her its not allways like that , allthough before i met her i was probably just as guilty.

wildphill
27-04-2013, 14:16
the wife calls it nerd stink, so wont go anywhere near a GW store with me or the kids, even though i tell her its not allways like that , allthough before i met her i was probably just as guilty.

Shadey
27-04-2013, 14:44
Gonna go slightly ot here but I am feeling philosophical.


Of course we agree, i was just pointing out that those "kids are worse than veterans" claims are, in a word, false.

In addition to what Nedius was saying the whole vets are better than kids thing is just a symptom of a wider phenomenon that effects all aspects of life, this theory that adults are better merely by dint of age. If anything, if a kid does something bad it is because she doesn't know better, if an adult does something bad it is usually because they don't care better. Who has the moral high-ground there?

Part of this manifests in the "respect your elders thing" which I despise. Even assuming any one person is worthy of respect now, are we to assume they were never young and never as fallible as the rest of us? I have no intention of respecting someone merely because they were born before me, no more than I would disrespect them for the same, or the reverse when it comes to children. There is a Norse proverb that goes something along the lines "Great age is nothing to respect, the years are given freely." Even better, from a slightly different angle is the following by C.S. Lewis.


“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

Basically he is calling out as those who think they are or something is better merely because they are "adult" as an egocentric fallacy. It is that same assumption which may in a very large part be to blame for the "kids are worse than veterans" claims, as you put it.


the wife calls it nerd stink, so wont go anywhere near a GW store with me or the kids, even though i tell her its not allways like that , allthough before i met her i was probably just as guilty.

I want to say that is a vicious stereotype, and I believe it is... but there is also an element of truth to it. :( There is always someone who seems unable to afford deoderant.

nedius
27-04-2013, 15:40
I remember the painful smell that used to eminate from the downstairs game room on vet's night. It was as if Nurgle himself had used the place to keep the things even he found a bit to stinky to have out all the time... So I can apprecitate that anyone with a nose would want to limit their own exposure to it, or those of their customers!

As a teacher, I know both how annoying and how cool kids can be. As an adult who hangs around with other adults I know how annoying and how cool tey can be too. However, I think the gaming ban is not to do with adults vs kids - that's too simple.

What is happening is that GW are discouraging vets from coming into the store, of whatever age. This is so they can be a better 'intro' venue and shop at the expense of it being an actual hobby centre. My problem with this is that their whole market focus is now aimed at one section of their market. A blanket ban on open gaming, allowing only tutorial games and limiting gaming space creates a negative experience for established gamers and pushes them to games clubs where those customers will be exposed to other miniatures, other games, and the negative setiments generated by the feeling of 'exclusion'.

I'm not against limiting the open gaming times. I can understand not allowing it on weekends or other peak shopping times. But during the quiet eveings/days, why not allow it? It won't put off many customers, if any, and would have maintained the good will of vets.

Mastodon
28-04-2013, 08:02
There isnt a 'blanket ban' on open gaming in GW stores. Its entirely up to the store manager if he wants to allow it or not. This is a perfect example of false information, when repeated loudly enough becoming fact.

nedius
28-04-2013, 14:22
no, there isn't a blanket ban, nor has anyone said there was a blanket ban - at least that I've read. What has been said is that there is an increasing number of stores where the new managers are coming in and implementing this policy. The trend is spreading quite quickly. If this is indicative of the direction GW is going, then it won't be long before there is a 'unofficial' blanket ban as each new manager conforms to this trend.

Also, GW customer service emails have indicated that GW stores are not places for open gaming, but for gamers to learn aspects of their hobby (thus have staff providing lessons rather than allowing open games). This indicates that this is more than just a 'individual manager' approach, but an increasingly pervasive policy across the company.

I don't doubt there are some stores who will hold out against this for a long time, as long as the manager isn't promoted or let go. But once it becomes widely enough established, and once area managers are pushing it, it will be much harder for managers to stay 'open', especially if they have any ambition of promotion.

MetalGecko23
30-04-2013, 14:02
Personally this sounds pretty good to me. All I read is a proactive store that is intent on doing something more interesting with its time.

If "veterans" feel like they are being pushed out then I feel like they should re-evaluate themselves so to speak. Honestly playing my army verses your army gets boring after a time. Especially if both players didn't have an equal understanding of how the game should be played (i.e. for fun or to win). The removal of open gaming can and should (if the manager isn't just lazy) lead to campaigns, large team games, tournaments and other events. Technically there would still be plenty of "open" style gaming. Such as today we are doing a day were tank battles take precedence. So bring your best tanks and have at it! You would still be doing, "hey dude wanna play," but it would include the event of the day/week/month.

Some might not like that. I honestly would expect a GW store to do things that are more interesting then here are tables...play some games. Local stores with the space and clubs can do the less enthusiastic stuff. But a GW store should be promoting playing the hobby to its fullest. An I don't see anything sinister about this choice. I has tons of potential to improve the daily happenings of the store and even increase customer base.

Also adults should learn to get along with children more...

Coldhatred
30-04-2013, 17:43
At first this concerned me, but now that I've thought about it some more, I'm sure it will turn out better than many are thinking in this thread. BUT I completely agree that this statement could have been worded much better.

The_Real_Chris
27-05-2013, 11:00
And where am I to find the space to host a club? I'm a student, an archaeology one at that, meaning most of my summer is spent in fields digging, so I couldn't organise it, and don't have the space for a gaming club at home.

Well, start a free one in a pub?
http://www.clwc.org.uk/

The_Real_Chris
27-05-2013, 11:01
People should attempt to ween themselves from the warm embrace of GW store gaming and grow up. Are people so socially inept that they can't form a facebook group of local gamers who they normally play at GW stores and arrange to game elsewhere? Form your own club or find one in the local area or even game round each others house.

I'm moving to London in the next few weeks, leaving behind a regular gaming club and my own personal stash of home gaming terrain worth hundreds. I'm going to search for a new club, and if I can do it so can others.

That link above is a good one, takes at most 12 6x4 tables, has terrain by bucketful does a massive variety of games. http://www.clwc.org.uk/ And is free. After going there for years I can never pay to play again...

(Note all the 40k terrain is in a box in my loft as no-one has played it in years after switching to better games, so you will have to make do with generic trees, hills, woods etc unless you can use the buildings designed for other scales!)

IcedCrow
28-05-2013, 14:15
Our city's GW store allows open gaming, you just have to let the manager know what day you want to reserve the tables and he's happy to do so.

Autumn Leaves
29-05-2013, 08:42
Read the whole thread and a couple of things come to mind.

GW are continuing to streamline their stores to make more sales to beginner and entry level customers, that is, 11-15 year olds coming into the 'brand'.
They are not 'actively' excluding older players,gamers/collectors/vets.
However, as the 'many new events' are targeting their entry level beginners, the chances are that vets will not be interested in participating in events aimed at beginners. Unless 500 point 'battles' or learning how to paint a space marine etc. are something you still enjoy doing in public with minors.
I have no problem with GW following their business plan.
The big issue is that the older gaming crowd still feel that GW owes them something, because once upon a time (and it was a long time ago now) GW did do a vast amount more to keep older gamers in the GW hobby from open gaming, to organising events for vets, to having a regular late opening vets night at local stores and to producing a wide variety of literature for the many games they used to produce that was aimed at an older reading age.
An old Pal of mine was a senior manager in the London area and he told me straight, 'off the record', "If we get the kids for two birthdays and two Christmas periods we are in the money. I asked him about Vets and he said, "Who?" and laughed. I laughed with him because GW turned their business plan on to kids somewhere around 1999 and they have never looked back.
Reducing store open gaming to vets is not a big radical change, it's simply another increase in the beginner recruitment creep methodology exercised in the GW business plan.
For some folk its a smack in the mouth for others it's a Meh...
Anyone for an in store game of BFG? Warmaster? Epic? Necromunda? Mordheim? Man O War? Spacehulk? Talisman, Hero Quest? Gorkamorka, Blood Bowl? Anyone want to cash in their skulls?

The bottom line is this, if you are old enough to buy your own toys then GW doesn't give a hoot about you. You simply don't count. Anything you buy is merely a bonus to their business plan.
To the policy makers on the board of directors, like Tom Kirby and co, your adult gamer opinion may as well be written on toilet tissue because it means less than nothing to the guys that make policy for GW's business plan and direction.
How many times does GW need to do anything that works better for entry level beginners that makes the brand a little less attractive to older gamers before people wake up and realise that you have no importance in the scale of the GW business plan.
By all means we can buy the GW brand of toys and enjoy the greater hobby with or without the GW systems, but don't fool yourselves by thinking that you have any importance in the greater scheme of things at GW.
GW have spent well over a decade focussing on parental disposable income and their stores, particularly on the weekends and during school holidays, have become increasingly more like a geeky younger teenage styled creche than a place older gamers would feel comfortable. During that time GW have made some impressive profits for the board members, and something for the shareholders as well.
Sorry folks, the reality is if you are old enough to buy your own toys then you are history to GW.

Killgore
29-05-2013, 12:56
Sorry folks, the reality is if you are old enough to buy your own toys then you are history to GW.

And most certainly old enough to form your own gaming club/ group.

Autumn Leaves
29-05-2013, 13:26
Age has no bearing at all on forming a gaming club once you are over 18 years of age other than potentially having a bearing on your earning potential and it's much harder for some people to afford setting up a club than for others.
Some people are well resourced and others are not.
It depends on many factors including financial position, living situation, proximity to other gamers, costs of space hireage, availability of suitable premises, storage space for club terrain, cost of buying terrain for a new club, beizes etc, are tables and chairs provided by the premises or do they need to be purchased from club subs and stored somewhere, who is the treasurer for holding club monies, is it geographically viable? Are potential members too far away to meet on a weekly basis etc.
Is it fair to hold the gaming club in the same persons house/garage etc
Everyones circumstances are different and everyone has different or changing circumstances at different times of their lives.
However, I daresay most people over 18 years of age looking for a game would have a better time at a club than at a GW store so... hunt around and see what is available.

Horus Lupercal
29-05-2013, 13:50
Contradiction much?

Age has no bearing, once you are 18 years of age?? :p

gutsmaka
29-05-2013, 14:16
my gaming group has sort of formed in a games workshop. it's pretty isolated, and not many kids come in off the street. I haven't heard of these "cant play at GW" rules popping up, but the last time GW tried to get the store to play specific music, the manager just played one song over and over while the supervisor was around, until it annoyed the supervisor, and he told the manager to get rid of it :D . brilliant.

Autumn Leaves
29-05-2013, 14:39
Contradiction much?

Age has no bearing, once you are 18 years of age?? :p

Why did you manipulate the sentence and add punctuation where I had deliberately left none?
Kindly finish the sentence instead of quoting out of context next time, cheers.

The_Real_Chris
29-05-2013, 15:29
Just do what CLWC (http://www.clwc.org.uk/) did - find a pub that lets you play for free and store terrain and tables in exchange for buying drink & food. Play.

Autumn Leaves
29-05-2013, 22:00
A blast from the past, precedent... 2003, Issue 21 of the Warmaster magazine, , on page three,
"As many of you may be aware, this is the last issue of Warmaster - ever. Let me also make it clear that the game of Warmaster is not going away- in fact it's going to get better."

Warmaster was shifted into the fanatic magazine with all the other specialist games and it wasn't long after that the Fanatic magazine died as well.
History never repeats...