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agurus1
28-03-2013, 05:13
Ok so I'm looking to make a list essentially revolving around a Blood Dragon who spends most of his time setting up at say a bridge or ford or forest road, and challenges every passing knight. The army that forms around him is a combination of either resurrected corpses of particularly worthy foes (Black Knights/Wight Kings), and the dregs of undead society drawn into his presence by force or will (Ghouls, Wolves, ect...) and the tree from which hang the bodies of those he defeats (Mortis Engine). I'd like constructive criticism in how to make it "competitive" while still retaining the theme. So here goes:

Lords
The Crimson Knight (Vampire Lord) (523) Nightshroud; The Other Trickster's Shard; Talisman Of Preservation; Red Fury; Dread Knight; Quickblood; Level 3 Wizard; Lore of Death; hand weapon; lance; shield; heavy armour, Barded Nightmare

Heroes
Master-At-Arms (Wight King) (120) Sword Of Anti-Heroes; Enchanted Shield; hand weapon; heavy armour

Master-At-Arms (Wight King) (134) Sword Of Striking; Dragonhelm; Potion Of Strength; hand weapon; shield; heavy armour.

Thrall Wizard (Necromancer) (125) Book of Arkhan; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of the Vampires;

Thrall Wizard (Necromancer) (145) Dispel Scroll; Power Stone; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of the Vampires;

Core
The Waylaid (20 Zombies) (70) musician; standard bearer;

2x Hunting Dogs (5 Dire Wolves) (40)

30 Crypt Ghouls (310) Crypt Ghast

30 Skeleton Warriors (205) Full command; The Screaming Banner

Special
Cart Of The Slain (Corpse Cart) (105)

Chosen Slain (9 Black Knights) (314), lances & barding, full command; Banner of the Barrows

3 Crypt Horrors (124) w/ Crypt Haunter

Rare
Tree Of The Dead (Mortis Engine) (240)

maze ironheart
29-03-2013, 22:03
I can't think of anything but the crypt horrors they are to small even for a tarpit they will hold 1 combat and that is against a regular unit the Knights to are to small to do any hurt maybe buff them up to 14 by dropping the crypt horrors.

KingFerret
29-03-2013, 22:26
can't have lore of death on the vampire lord as the generaal has to have lore of vampires. You can't have both the power stone and the dispel scroll on your necromancer, both are arcane items and you can only have 1 of each type of magic item on a charaacter. I don't think the banner of the barrows is worth it for 9 black knights, especially if you aren't going to put the wight kings in their too. And as has already been mentioned the crypt horrors are probably too small of a unit. Oh and they don't need a champion. I think this list would be perfectly good if you dropped a wight king and used the points for 3 more crypt horrors. Have fun!

agurus1
31-03-2013, 05:50
Thanks for the replies guys! I've made some edits to the list, what do you think? I really wanted to buff the size of the Crypt Horrors and Ghouls, so I sacrificed some of the skeletons, and a Wight King for the additional models, while giving one necro Maste of the Dead to hopefully buff the skellies numbers during the game. Let me know what you think!

Vampire Lord (533) Nightshroud; Talisman Of Preservation; The Other Trickster's Shard; Red Fury; Quickblood; Dread Knight; Summon Creatures of the Night; Level 3 Wizard; Lore of the Vampires; hand weapon; lance; shield; heavy armour, Barded Nightmare

Heroes
Wight King (155) Fencer's Blades; Dragonhelm; Battle Standard

Necromancer (145) Book of Arkhan; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of the Vampires; Master of the Dead

Necromancer (125) Dispell Scroll; Level 2 Wizard; Lore of the Vampires;

Core
25 Skeleton Warriors (155) Full command

40 Crypt Ghouls (410) Crypt Ghast

5 Dire Wolves (40)

5 Dire Wolves (40)

Special
9 Black Knights (314) Full command, Lances, Barding, Banner of the Barrows

6 Crypt Horrors (238) Crype Haunter

Corpse Cart (105) Balefire

Rare
Mortis Engine (240) Requiliary

KingFerret
31-03-2013, 12:01
Great list I think, I really like it. My only real problem would be that your lord has a lance rather than sword of might or ogre blade and you have no terrorgheists, therefore you don't really have a way to beat high toughness or high armour save enemies. I mean sure your black knights and lord will do a lot of damage on the charge, but will struggle in later rounds. I usually like to have one or the other (or preferably both) in my lists.

agurus1
31-03-2013, 19:59
What do you suggest I switch out for one of those weapons (ogre blade/sword of might)?

KingFerret
31-03-2013, 20:08
Lose level 2 on a necromancer, lose some ghouls, lose banner of the barrows, lose fencers blades, lose Battle Standard, lose dread knight, lose summon creatures of the night, lose nightshroud. There are plenty of ways you can get enough points for an ogre blade.

agurus1
31-03-2013, 22:17
Lose level 2 on a necromancer, lose some ghouls, lose banner of the barrows, lose fencers blades, lose Battle Standard, lose dread knight, lose summon creatures of the night, lose nightshroud. There are plenty of ways you can get enough points for an ogre blade.

well I'm not losing Nightshroud or Dreadknight, I want the latter for the Theme and the former is just too amazing (especially considering the # of High Elves and Dark Elves with Assassins around here).

Should I drop Tricksters Shard and the 4+ ward for a 5+ and one of the +S weapons? Should I give him a Great Weapon?

KingFerret
31-03-2013, 22:43
No, the other tricksters shard and 4+ ward are both items you really need for a blender lord imo. Lose a magic level from a necromancer is what I'd do.

Moss
31-03-2013, 22:50
Strictly theme-wise, maybe the GW is the way to go. I'm imagining a particularly nasty looking, gigantic sword in the hands of this madman knight in the woods. It's certainly less noble than the lance.

Game-wise, it's probably a poor choice, as you end up missing out on rerolls to hit from ASF.

agurus1
01-04-2013, 01:34
hmmm this is a troublesome situation. I REALLY like the Nightshroud, but could live without the other 2 items thematically, and perhaps just rely on the lord chewing his way through and big opposition with a nicer sword + tricksters shard? The Nightshroud stops all Strength Bonuses from opposing models magical and mundane weapons so not having a ward becomes a bit less scary in general imo yes?

Maybe I'll go: Nightshroud (+1 AS, enemies get ASL, and no S bonuses from Mundane or Magic items), Other Trickster's Shard (enemies in BtB must re-roll successful ward saves), Dawnstone (re-roll failed armour saves - 1+), and Sword of Might (+1 S)

Red Fury (successful wounds generate an additional attack, no repeats), Quickblood (ASF), Dreadknight (+2 WS, must challenge & accept challenges), Summon Creatures of the Night (can raise additional models to Dire Wolves, ect...)

agurus1
04-04-2013, 04:05
So I used the second list, with the vampire I created in the post above. Played in a game vs Chaos Warriors today, I lost by 100 points give or take a few. My lord was the only thing left, my opponent had his daemon prince, and a chariot left lol. I was happy with this list mainly because despite some poor rolling for the rest of my army, my lord managed to kill off over 1400 points on his own (killed 6 jugger knights, and a horde of 40 or so chaos warriors). I don't know of I will keep dreadknight though. WS 9 is nice but having to challenge can cause the rest of my unit to get chewed up pretty hard (then again I did charge the juggers lol).

agurus1
10-04-2013, 02:27
Another try out here after 3 games with the former list (1 win vs HE, 1 win vs Empire, 1 loss vs WoC). I'm going even moreso for the theme of creatures of the forest and outside society (even by undead standards), and trying to make the most of the Mortis Engines Regen buff:

Lords:
The Crimson Knight (Vampire Lord): 554
Level 4 Wizard (Vampire), Hellsteed, Nightshroud, The Other Tricksters, Dawnstone, Sword Of Might; Red Fury, Dread Knight, Quickblood

Heroes:
Damsel Linet (Necromancer): 125
Level 2 (Vampire), Dispell Scroll

Necromancer: 100
Level 2 (Death)

Core:
50 Crypt Ghouls: 510
Crypt Ghast

2 x 6 Dire Wolves: 58
Doom Wolf

Special:
9 Black Knights: 264
Full Command, Barding, Lances

6 Crypt Horrors: 238
Crypt Haunter

Rare:
Mortis Engine: 240
Blasphemous Tomb

2x Varghulf

m1acca1551
10-04-2013, 03:05
its very hard to critique a themed army, because inevitably one suggests a change to something that cant be done.

Personally i'd drop the dread knight, it's just not worth the extra WS, your WS 10 shredder lord of doom strides forward to attack, shouting a challenge, only to answered by a sergeant of the halberdier regiment, talk about massive over kill.

Level 4 on a CC lord to me is just strange, their are far to many creatures/items/contraptions/spells that can kill your lord and well when 1/5 or 1/4 of your army is killed as a VC player you may aswell say GG mate and not waste your time continuing.

A level 2 CC lord is the most i tend to go, the rest of the point i drop on wraiths, bats etc what ever takes your fancy, i'd choose wraiths as they (your opponent) has to make a critical choice in what they use there magic against, do they target your wraiths knowing that once they are in CC they cant be stopped or your lord who without dread knight is going to rip apart whatever unit he faces??

I run this kit for my CC lord, Sword of blood shed, potion of strength, ward save, season to taste. 8 ws 8 attacks at s5 will rock most things, and if you run into chaos knights or chosen etc pop the potion and suddenly your a st8 can opener with red fury, i have killed an entire unit of 12 kotr in 1 combat phase with this combo :) truly amazing stuff :)

agurus1
10-04-2013, 05:40
Well I thought a level 4 was a must really to push through some spells, and at the least soak up dispel dice from my opponent before going for my Ivocations or throwing dice at Death spells trying to get more power dice!

not to mention that it sucks trying to dispel with just level 2's :shifty:

As for the dread knight thing, he only goes from WS7 to WS9, not too big a bump but now WS4 guys need 5's to hit which is nice. The must challenge thing is a bummer but I think it is in character at least so doest bother me too much. Especially now that I have got more of a handle on this army and I am able to get in multi-charges ect. off

the ward save thing does bug me but I figure 2+ re-rollable isn't too shabby (was a 1+ but I thought it might be fun to try the Winged Nightmare thing). Also the Nightshroud is just too cool to pass up :P I see how blender-y your lord is though thats awesome.

How do you think the list is in general, leaving aside the Lord? I know it is themed, but my big thing is making sure its not a pushover :)

m1acca1551
10-04-2013, 08:08
Your list is solid and compact, you have some very nice hitting units on your flank/s, run the vargulfs together and they will rip apart anything that in on the flank.

I do like the list, i have ran very similar and had some good results.

On the Dispel and magic levels, at 2500 point, drop a necro and take a master necro level 3-4 if you can afford it, this gives some magic help without making the lord a kill me and you win guy.

Run the list as is, see how you go, and seeing as though it is narrative based find an excuse to include a master necro, Linet after much magic use has gained a further insight and gained an better hold on the winds of magic etc.

agurus1
12-04-2013, 06:10
well won vs my friends Chaos yesterday at 2500. I have to be more cautious about charging in my Vampire Lord against units with high static combat res though lol. I won because he blew my Mortis Engine up turn 6 with his last unit and the resulting damage wiped out the unit lol leaving my slowly crumbling Crypt Horrors as the last unit standing. So a victory by ~250 points

Bigman
13-04-2013, 10:49
I would echo above comments on making the vamp level 2, and swapping two level 2's for a single level 4.

m1acca1551
14-04-2013, 07:40
well won vs my friends Chaos yesterday at 2500. I have to be more cautious about charging in my Vampire Lord against units with high static combat res though lol. I won because he blew my Mortis Engine up turn 6 with his last unit and the resulting damage wiped out the unit lol leaving my slowly crumbling Crypt Horrors as the last unit standing. So a victory by ~250 points

Congrats on the win, how do you feel that the list went overall?

I refer to my blender build including potion of strength it is an all comer build that smokes high toughness MC/MI and armoured units, you will still yield CR due to you delivery system, but if you can kill 12 warriors for the loss of say 8 BK well... winner winner chicken dinner, that and well you can raise your dudes back... :)

agurus1
15-04-2013, 18:28
I felt good about it, it was dynamic and the speed of the Vampire Lord, BK, Mortis Engine, and 2 Vargulfs on my flank really shocked him. Not to mention that a single vargulf almost ate half of his unit of 30 warriors lol before dying. I don't have my rulebook with me today, but what would I have to drop from my Vamp Lord to take a potion of strength?

The biggest thing for me was that I won DESPITE really poor Winds of Magic rolls, and losing my Vampire Lord and my Level 2 Necromancer with Vampires. SO my army was crumbling after turn like 5 and I still won lol

maze ironheart
15-04-2013, 21:27
I felt good about it, it was dynamic and the speed of the Vampire Lord, BK, Mortis Engine, and 2 Vargulfs on my flank really shocked him. Not to mention that a single vargulf almost ate half of his unit of 30 warriors lol before dying. I don't have my rulebook with me today, but what would I have to drop from my Vamp Lord to take a potion of strength?

The biggest thing for me was that I won DESPITE really poor Winds of Magic rolls, and losing my Vampire Lord and my Level 2 Necromancer with Vampires. SO my army was crumbling after turn like 5 and I still won lol

First of congrats on the win second The other tricksters shard would have to go for potion of strength the tricksters shard is 15pt's and the potion is 20pt's so if you got 5 points spare then you have it.

agurus1
16-04-2013, 06:09
First of congrats on the win second The other tricksters shard would have to go for potion of strength the tricksters shard is 15pt's and the potion is 20pt's so if you got 5 points spare then you have it.

oh man you are killing me with the thought of dropping the OTS, has truly seemed to have benefits especially vs some of the armies around here that try to capitalize on it (WoC with MoT). Or some higher level characters that rely on high wards. Do you truely think a turn of +3 S is worth the utility of the OTS?

Lance Tankmen
16-04-2013, 06:21
no i think OTS is more needed, 8 S still has to go through a ward save

maze ironheart
16-04-2013, 20:39
Well you asked what to drop for potion of strength and you can't have 2 of the same items from the same choice.

agurus1
17-04-2013, 04:18
good point, both of you. I might try out PoS at a later date.

What about exchanging the black knights and a vargulf for Blood Knights? how many might I need to be an effective escort for the Vamp Lord?

maze ironheart
17-04-2013, 21:34
good point, both of you. I might try out PoS at a later date.

What about exchanging the black knights and a vargulf for Blood Knights? how many might I need to be an effective escort for the Vamp Lord?

I would say nay as they are overcosted and do not earn them back that is what I have both used and seen with blood knight's black knights are easy to raise and can deal a good lot of damage.

m1acca1551
18-04-2013, 01:44
Bloodknights with a blender lord without dread knight are simply amazing, my guys have ripped through huge units and broken hordes on the charge, MI have been swept away before them, all in all they are simply the most devastating unit that can be fielded, watch out however as every cannon, spell etc will be thrown at them to stop them reaching combat...

m1acca1551
18-04-2013, 01:50
I would say nay as they are overcosted and do not earn them back that is what I have both used and seen with blood knight's black knights are easy to raise and can deal a good lot of damage.

You make some very good points, black knights are certainly cheaper, but they are simply a vamp delivery system that's all. My issue with black knights are their inability to overcome CR and if you are running you blender lord with dread knight, all of a sudden your black knights are fighting on their own.

Blood Knights i have found will rarely yield combat res unless you are simply throwing them at swordmasters etc.

The 2 have their pro's and con's if your running dread knight, well blood knights will tear the unit nicely, if your opponent is canny he will challenge but even then a castellan is no combat slouch capable of killing enemy heroes easily. Black knights won't, they need the Vamp to do the heavy lifting, by killling enough r&f to make up for the lack of combat prowess of the knights.

Expensive yes, but when they hit... well yeah :)

Kayosiv
18-04-2013, 01:57
Blood knights are double the cost for black knights are exactly as defensive but triple as offensive. This "kind of" pans out. In combat the blood knights are great, but defensibly they are laughable for the cost. They CANNOT go against things with mutliple high strength attacks unless you bring a lot of them, and if you bring a lot of them, your entire rare points allotment is used.

Ultimately, I would use the following logic. If your vampire lord is a level 1 wizard, take blood knights. Since only one can be resurrected by invocation anyway, it's not a big deal. If your lord is level 3 or 4, you should take black knights, because a single invocation will bring back enough black knights that it will make up for the difference that they would have made in the combat if you were to lose or be shot up.

agurus1
18-04-2013, 02:56
what if I ran a unit of 4 blood knights with my vamp lord and a vamp hero? that seems like a fair amount of CC ability? Wouldn't the Blood KNights offensive ability help them overcome some of the black knights weaknesses? And I can resurrect two knights a turn with the two vamps.

m1acca1551
18-04-2013, 03:34
what if I ran a unit of 4 blood knights with my vamp lord and a vamp hero? that seems like a fair amount of CC ability? Wouldn't the Blood KNights offensive ability help them overcome some of the black knights weaknesses? And I can resurrect two knights a turn with the two vamps.

That's a huge amount of CC ability, concern though is that you have just made a tasty target even juicier, work out the points on the thrall and the castellan, often they the same thing just for cheaper and your thrall can then go and help elsewhere. Castellan must challenge so will fit your theme, and forgive me if your wrong, can you run dual challenges in 1 combat? if you can well the enemy character has no where to hide, if he kills your castellan oh well challenge with your lord next turn :)

You can raise a maximum of 1 wound per casting i think?? so yeah you can raise them back up...


1000 posts!!! yew!!!

Kayosiv
18-04-2013, 05:22
what if I ran a unit of 4 blood knights with my vamp lord and a vamp hero? that seems like a fair amount of CC ability? Wouldn't the Blood KNights offensive ability help them overcome some of the black knights weaknesses? And I can resurrect two knights a turn with the two vamps.

No. Because with only 4 blood knights if your lord takes a cannonball to the face he's stuck without a look-out-sir. I would run 6 blood knights minimum if you plan to put your lord in there. This is a major distinction of blood knights and black knights. What black knights can't do in combat, they make up for their ability to soak up enemy damage with double the bodies. With 2 vampires in the unit, I doubt you need blood knights anyway. That's PLENTY of hitting power for 1 unit.

agurus1
18-04-2013, 07:00
I see what you are saying, Kayosiv. I think I'll incorporate that into my list!