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Soul Hunter
29-03-2013, 21:37
http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/the-talon-of-horus/

ADB has just started writing the first of his coming Black Legion series, The Talon of Horus. Glorious news! :D


SH

dienekes96
29-03-2013, 21:42
His enthusiasm for the project gives me enthusiasm. The quality of his writing typically pays off that enthusiasm.

Sqallum
29-03-2013, 22:13
Ooh, can't wait to see the Traitors butcher themselves. Really keen to see how the Legions slowly become corrupted/attack each other in the Eye... happy me :)

Hodden
29-03-2013, 22:15
This, as the kids say, is relevant to my interests.

Starting the series before the end of the Heresy books is interesting.

Soul Hunter
29-03-2013, 23:37
Starting the series before the end of the Heresy books is interesting.
Indeed. One thing in particular will come about as a result, I think. Horus Aximand, we'll know whether he survives or not. If he is in the series then he lives through the Heresy, if not then he died in it. How that happens is up for speculation but his presence of lack of it in ADB's BL series will tacitly confirm his survival or death in the HH series.


SH

Sqallum
30-03-2013, 11:54
Indeed. One thing in particular will come about as a result, I think. Horus Aximand, we'll know whether he survives or not. If he is in the series then he lives through the Heresy, if not then he died in it. How that happens is up for speculation but his presence of lack of it in ADB's BL series will tacitly confirm his survival or death in the HH series.


SH

Ooh, I hope he dies. It would be awesome if he let down the void shields on the Vengeful Spirit. Kinda like a last redemption thing.

Duke_Leto
30-03-2013, 14:14
Exciting news indeed. I would love a long running series that eventually comes all the way up to the present 40k era and along the way addresses some of the more interesting tidbits in the history/background.

Londinium
30-03-2013, 16:36
Indeed. One thing in particular will come about as a result, I think. Horus Aximand, we'll know whether he survives or not. If he is in the series then he lives through the Heresy, if not then he died in it. How that happens is up for speculation but his presence of lack of it in ADB's BL series will tacitly confirm his survival or death in the HH series.
SH

Another issue is clashing continuity, I imagine Aaron will be limited to using strictly Black Legion characters and minor characters for other legions in case it clashes with the years of the Heresy that still needs fleshing in. I remember bringing up the issue of continuity clash when this was first mooted and he replied, saying it wouldn't be much of an issue. So it seems they've got this at least a little planned out. I honestly can't wait for it, if it has any of the character development and long arcs of his Night Lords trilogy it'll be excellent.

Dead.Blue.Clown
30-03-2013, 17:06
Another issue is clashing continuity, I imagine Aaron will be limited to using strictly Black Legion characters and minor characters for other legions in case it clashes with the years of the Heresy that still needs fleshing in. I remember bringing up the issue of continuity clash when this was first mooted and he replied, saying it wouldn't be much of an issue. So it seems they've got this at least a little planned out. I honestly can't wait for it, if it has any of the character development and long arcs of his Night Lords trilogy it'll be excellent.

Sooorrrrrrrt of. It's not really a matter of limitation. From the outset, the best opportunity about a Black Legion series is a matter of scale. I don't really care, to be perfectly honest, what happens to the handful of major captains we see in the Sons of Horus, in the HH series. With the ebb and flow of Legion ranks, there are between 100 and 200 captains, commanders, battalion leaders, and several hundred more lieutenants and sergeants, etc. And that's just the Sons of Horus (who, as a related note, are practically annihilated in the Legion Wars inside the Eye of Terror, by the time the Black Legion is founded). Captains, sorcerers, officers and everything else from the other Legions are also part of the Black Legion's founding, because while the Sons of Horus were just the Luna Wolves with a new coat of paint, the Black Legion is categorically not the Sons of Horus with a new colour scheme. The Black Legion is something utterly new to the galaxy, and the Traitor Legions.

In the case of Horus Aximand, his fate is already sealed. As for other Heresy characters, their fates are already famously established, or they may or may not be irrelevant. The Heresy series (sadly) can only show so much. It shows a fraction of the power players within each Legion. Anyone coming into this with linear thinking will find their expectations dashed, I think. Let's say Horus Aximand survives, for example. If I mention him, he might not join the Black Legion at all. If I don't mention him, it doesn't mean he doesn't make it. It means he has nothing to do with the story, or the founding of the Black Legion, or other characters have eclipsed him in importance. And on the flip side, how many captains of the Thousand Sons have we really seen? Or the Emperor's Children? Or even the Sons of Horus? There are hundreds and hundreds - some are minor, some are major, but they're just not quite on the level of the Kharns and Ahrimans. And, of course, Abaddon.

So, naw, it's not about there being any limits set on this. In fact, the opposite is true, as f'rex Dan has already asked which Sons of Horus characters I planned to use, so we didn't kill them off in the Heresy, etc. It's more a matter of scale, that the characters we've seen in the Heresy are 0.01% of the bigger picture. The First Lords of the Black Legion aren't necessarily the last commanders of the Sons of Horus. It'll never be that linear - I'd be doing a huge injustice to the scale of the setting if it played out like that.

Think of it like Troy. All those heroes died in the Trojan War, except for a small handful that went on to their own adventures. Odysseus had his Odyssey. Aeneas went to found the city of Alba Longa with the Latins. A few hundred years later, the last lords of Troy were mostly gone, and the first lords of Rome took their place.

I'm sure there'll be a spoiler or two on the most minor scale, but we already know what happens to every primarch and first captain anyway, so it's hardly life-shattering. As for other characters, it's more a matter of it not being about the same guys that masterminded the Heresy. We already know most of their fates. This is about the Traitor Legions being forced to live in Hell, in the wake of their primarchs abandoning them and evolving to a higher plane of life; and a new breed of Chaos Marine rising from the rubble.

The main character, at Abaddon's right hand and who will become one of the Black Legion's founders, is Iskandar Khayon - a Thousand Son. He was in the Thousand Sons' inner circle of command, and unsuccessfully tried to stop the Rubric. He's not mentioned in the Horus Heresy series (though I could easily have him slipped in already; could've done it myself twice over), but the focused nature of the HH series means about a bajillion major and minor characters are slipping through the cracks. There's room for a lot of flex space, of you get me.

If you have too much crossover, the galaxy becomes too small. It's one of my hugest bugbears. Like how Boba Fett is "the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy". The galaxy is a big, big, big place. I hate that "small neighbourhood" feel of everyone knowing everyone else.

Duke_Leto
31-03-2013, 11:05
This is about the Traitor Legions being forced to live in Hell, in the wake of their primarchs abandoning them and evolving to a higher plane of life; and a new breed of Chaos Marine rising from the rubble.

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about - very psyched about the prospect of this series and the focus. Nice, cannot wait.


If you have too much crossover, the galaxy becomes too small. It's one of my hugest bugbears. Like how Boba Fett is "the most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy". The galaxy is a big, big, big place. I hate that "small neighbourhood" feel of everyone knowing everyone else.

Totally agree. A bit of subtle crossover is good (the name of a ship amongst a fleet, the passing mention of a character) but too much makes it feel small when in fact the 40k setting is HUGE!

Related to this (but not a direct comment on this series) one of my bugbears is how some characters (by whatever means) seem to have their adventures across different segmentae. I prefer it when all their adventures take place in a single set of sectors (eg. most of the Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Bequin series - yes I know they scoot off to Cadia, a plot mistake in my book). What I am trying to say is that I like the idea that the Imperium (and galaxy) is so vast that nobody knows about other "heroes" in far off sectors/segmentae (and always loved the fluff saying that even the Administratum do not actually know how many planets are in the Imperium but it is around a million, they think).

Soul Hunter
31-03-2013, 14:04
Totally agree. A bit of subtle crossover is good (the name of a ship amongst a fleet, the passing mention of a character) but too much makes it feel small when in fact the 40k setting is HUGE!

I agree with this but I do feel that sometimes some more direct crossover is necessary. Like Prometheus Requiem and The Core, or Hyperion's true identity in The Emperor's Gift, that is the most crossover I think 40k should ever do. It's a good reminder that despite 40k being HUGE! these characters do inhabit the same universe and could one day meet one another. But other then that I feel the best kinds of crossovers are the kind Duke Leto mentions, passing mentions of characters or ships or battles.



The main character, at Abaddon's right hand and who will become one of the Black Legion's founders, is Iskandar Khayon - a Thousand Son. He was in the Thousand Sons' inner circle of command, and unsuccessfully tried to stop the Rubric.
Ooo I like the name change. Inaros to Iskandar. What prompted the change?


SH

TheProcrastinator
31-03-2013, 17:28
This is for me, hands down the best black-library related news, in a looong time.

I always thought the "hurt warrior's pride" and "priviliged alpha male" aspect of Chaos Space Marines (and Astartes in general) to be awesome themes. And Black Legion seem to be the best Legion to explore it.

I first read ADB mention the possibility of Black Legion trilogy a couple of years ago, on his blog. It was one of those painfully wonderfull things. Something from the land of "possibly far far down the line, maybe", while You know You crave it now.

Its great to learn the project is getting steam. Really excited about this.


And that's just the Sons of Horus (who, as a related note, are practically annihilated in the Legion Wars inside the Eye of Terror, by the time the Black Legion is founded).

That's interesting, could You elaborate on this a bit more? I knew that BL incorporated elements from other Legions and warbands, but I was always under the impression that the majority, the core of the Legion is formed from Astartes with Horus gene seed.

Londinium
01-04-2013, 16:30
Sooorrrrrrrt of. It's not really a matter of limitation. From the outset, the best opportunity about a Black Legion series is a matter of scale. I don't really care, to be perfectly honest, what happens to the handful of major captains we see in the Sons of Horus, in the HH series. With the ebb and flow of Legion ranks, there are between 100 and 200 captains, commanders, battalion leaders, and several hundred more lieutenants and sergeants, etc. And that's just the Sons of Horus (who, as a related note, are practically annihilated in the Legion Wars inside the Eye of Terror, by the time the Black Legion is founded). Captains, sorcerers, officers and everything else from the other Legions are also part of the Black Legion's founding, because while the Sons of Horus were just the Luna Wolves with a new coat of paint, the Black Legion is categorically not the Sons of Horus with a new colour scheme. The Black Legion is something utterly new to the galaxy, and the Traitor Legions..

Ah thanks for replying ADB, you always seem to be lurking at just the right moment. Definitely puts my mind to rest in regards to the continuity issues. I can't wait to see the inter-legion wars and what emerges out of them, I honestly think it has the potential to be the first non HH entry on the NYT best sellers list. Perfectly explains the philosophy behind the series as well.

Speaking of which, does the 'Big Galaxy' philosophy mean you'll actively avoid any cameos of the 'big names' while the series and new characters are being established or will the odd name appear if the story calls for it? Likewise the Primarchs, are they going to be avoided? I know you mentioned them abandoning the marines but I think there's real narrative potential a few books down the line for one to confront Abaddon, viewing him as little more than a jumped up upstart and then realising how much Abaddon has grown and matured during the period after the Heresy. It'd be the perfect way to put Abaddon over as one of the new 'Big Bads' and help properly solidify his character and begin the end of this whole 'Abaddon is failure' meme that has spread throughout the online GW/BL community.

Dead.Blue.Clown
02-04-2013, 11:24
Ah thanks for replying ADB, you always seem to be lurking at just the right moment. Definitely puts my mind to rest in regards to the continuity issues. I can't wait to see the inter-legion wars and what emerges out of them, I honestly think it has the potential to be the first non HH entry on the NYT best sellers list. Perfectly explains the philosophy behind the series as well.

Regarding the New York Times bestsellers' list, there's a chance it might've made it (with Heresy-style heavy advertising), but I doubt it now. Sci-fi hardbacks rarely ever chart on the NYTBL, which is sort of the price you pay for the fortune of getting your work in hardback. But I'm a big boy, so I'll live. (I did, however, hugely object to it a couple of Horus Heresy meetings ago because I liked making the list, and now none of the HH series will chart, anymore. Yes, yes. I'm selfish.)


Speaking of which, does the 'Big Galaxy' philosophy mean you'll actively avoid any cameos of the 'big names' while the series and new characters are being established or will the odd name appear if the story calls for it? Likewise the Primarchs, are they going to be avoided? I know you mentioned them abandoning the marines but I think there's real narrative potential a few books down the line for one to confront Abaddon, viewing him as little more than a jumped up upstart and then realising how much Abaddon has grown and matured during the period after the Heresy. It'd be the perfect way to put Abaddon over as one of the new 'Big Bads' and help properly solidify his character and begin the end of this whole 'Abaddon is failure' meme that has spread throughout the online GW/BL community.

There'll definitely be cameos on that level, not just because it's cool; not just because it's an effective way of showing certain themes; but also because it's hugely realistic. Abaddon and Ahriman will cross paths more than once across 10,000 years, I'm sure. And Abaddon has business with the primarchs at some point, oh yes. They can remove themselves from mortal concerns, but mortals have hunted the gods down since time out of mind, in plenty of myths and legends.

MiyamatoMusashi
02-04-2013, 11:40
Ooo I like the name change. Inaros to Iskandar. What prompted the change?

Well, Iskander is one of the names that Alexander the Great was known by in the East (Sikandur being another). Remote tribesmen in that region still say he was the devil, and had horns... that guy truly left his stamp on history and then some.

So, Iskandar? As good a name for a fictional warrior as any. AtG was a genius... in the event that I ever spawn a son, I'll name him Alexander. Just as ADB did, funnily enough...

Anakwanar
02-04-2013, 12:16
Dear Dead.Blue.Clown could you explain me one point. From some military experience and knowing history of the half of the military campaigns i could tell that - if you didnt annihilate the enemy in several blows - he will retaliate and with the 90 % of probability at some point of time will have several decisive victories. But the good guys are losing in HH big time - every book. And knowing lore of HH i could say that its need some BIG victories for the good guys. Small scale actions in spite of defeat (aka Deliverence lost, Know no Fear) - thats not it. Someone could say - that's Tallarn or Signus prime were victories for the loyalist, but this is not true. Right now accordingly to lore the only victory (Pyrrhic) - was the Siege of Terra.
So - maybe someone like you will write a novel - where BAD GUYS would be completely annihilated. (Prince of Crows was awesome, but iam afraid that part 2 of the Sevatar history at the Invincible Reason jail - would be a Rambo story. Poor poor Dark Angels - nobody want to make them likeable).

Sqallum
02-04-2013, 14:10
Dear Dead.Blue.Clown could you explain me one point. From some military experience and knowing history of the half of the military campaigns i could tell that - if you didnt annihilate the enemy in several blows - he will retaliate and with the 90 % of probability at some point of time will have several decisive victories. But the good guys are losing in HH big time - every book. And knowing lore of HH i could say that its need some BIG victories for the good guys. Small scale actions in spite of defeat (aka Deliverence lost, Know no Fear) - thats not it. Someone could say - that's Tallarn or Signus prime were victories for the loyalist, but this is not true. Right now accordingly to lore the only victory (Pyrrhic) - was the Siege of Terra.
So - maybe someone like you will write a novel - where BAD GUYS would be completely annihilated. (Prince of Crows was awesome, but iam afraid that part 2 of the Sevatar history at the Invincible Reason jail - would be a Rambo story. Poor poor Dark Angels - nobody want to make them likeable).

Me too. However, on balance the Traitors do get smashed in the Scouring by the Loyalists and their Primarchs.

Anakwanar
03-04-2013, 08:32
Its HH and not a Scouring. And Alpharius would definitely has to say something for the smashed part.

Hodden
03-04-2013, 10:41
Dear Dead.Blue.Clown could you explain me one point. From some military experience and knowing history of the half of the military campaigns i could tell that - if you didnt annihilate the enemy in several blows - he will retaliate and with the 90 % of probability at some point of time will have several decisive victories. But the good guys are losing in HH big time - every book. And knowing lore of HH i could say that its need some BIG victories for the good guys. Small scale actions in spite of defeat (aka Deliverence lost, Know no Fear) - thats not it. Someone could say - that's Tallarn or Signus prime were victories for the loyalist, but this is not true. Right now accordingly to lore the only victory (Pyrrhic) - was the Siege of Terra.
So - maybe someone like you will write a novel - where BAD GUYS would be completely annihilated. (Prince of Crows was awesome, but iam afraid that part 2 of the Sevatar history at the Invincible Reason jail - would be a Rambo story. Poor poor Dark Angels - nobody want to make them likeable).

The Siege of Terra was a pyrrhic victory? Strange, while the Emperor was lost, as was the enemy leader, eight Legions ran from battle with three because another two were about to turn up, that sounds as if the battle on the grounds of Terra was going pretty badly for the traitors.

malika
03-04-2013, 10:58
The Emperor lost, most of the Space Marines dead, the dream of the Great Crusade dead, Malcador dead, Sanguinius dead, most of the fleet destroyed. There was hardly any Imperium left after the Heresy.

Anakwanar
03-04-2013, 12:38
Exactly malika. Perfect answer.
Lets just pretend - how cool it would be if they will change the lore - and kill some evil :D primarch before the HH ending? Like Mortarion. Death guard has Tychus - so it would be enough, especially when we will forget the ******** about Draigo carving his name on Morties heart (at this point i was laughing)

malika
03-04-2013, 12:52
The Traitors failed to overthrow the Emperor, lost the majority of their forces. Horus was dead, meaning that they had no more unifying leader, even though at this point many of the traitors were trapped in their own paths, or as Horus said (paraphrasing) "with these broken monsters must I reshape the future of mankind". His brothers were all seriously flawed. Fulgrim had already lost his interest in anything other than his own pleasures (just look at Angel Exterminatus). Angron became a Khornate daemonprince, which makes me wonder if by then he'd still be interested in fighting for freedom. Night Haunter and his Legion simply fought to scare the Imperium's population, no longer truly caring about any sort of coup d'etat. The Word Bearers might still be fighting for the salvation of humanity, but figures like Erebus and Kor Phaeron seemed to be more interested in their own machinations and powerplays.

Horus already lost before he got to Terra when looking at it like that, after his death the Traitors had nothing left to hold on to, especially with the Loyalists being way more unified and seeking revenge.

Goosey_J
03-04-2013, 17:23
As much as I'd love to see some Loyalist ass kicking in the Heresy, I don't think we'll see anything apart from the occasional snippet. The status quo of the Heresy is that everyone lost. The dream of the bright Imperium was shattered, the Primarchs corrupted, destroyed or forgotten. Humanity almost destroyed itself in one massive cataclysm and has limped on ever since.
Put simply, it's a tragedy. And tragedies do not end well for anyone. Look at Shakespeare's tragedies. Who at the end of any of them can turn round and say "that went well, looks like we won"? No one.

Bigglesworth
03-04-2013, 22:32
As much as I'd love to see some Loyalist ass kicking in the Heresy, I don't think we'll see anything apart from the occasional snippet. The status quo of the Heresy is that everyone lost. The dream of the bright Imperium was shattered, the Primarchs corrupted, destroyed or forgotten. Humanity almost destroyed itself in one massive cataclysm and has limped on ever since.
Put simply, it's a tragedy. And tragedies do not end well for anyone. Look at Shakespeare's tragedies. Who at the end of any of them can turn round and say "that went well, looks like we won"? No one.

Macbeth?

Macduffs Family is dead, but the Kings sons get their kingdom back, and the king of England gets some good PR with minimal losses in his Scottish campaign...

Though thats just one way of looking at it.

Scribe of Khorne
04-04-2013, 02:34
Dear Dead.Blue.Clown could you explain me one point. From some military experience and knowing history of the half of the military campaigns i could tell that - if you didnt annihilate the enemy in several blows - he will retaliate and with the 90 % of probability at some point of time will have several decisive victories. But the good guys are losing in HH big time - every book. And knowing lore of HH i could say that its need some BIG victories for the good guys. Small scale actions in spite of defeat (aka Deliverence lost, Know no Fear) - thats not it. Someone could say - that's Tallarn or Signus prime were victories for the loyalist, but this is not true. Right now accordingly to lore the only victory (Pyrrhic) - was the Siege of Terra.
So - maybe someone like you will write a novel - where BAD GUYS would be completely annihilated. (Prince of Crows was awesome, but iam afraid that part 2 of the Sevatar history at the Invincible Reason jail - would be a Rambo story. Poor poor Dark Angels - nobody want to make them likeable).

They are supposed to lose, why do you think Dorn is so broken down? He KNOWS the Imperium has lost.

stormblade
04-04-2013, 20:23
Look at Shakespeare's tragedies. Who at the end of any of them can turn round and say "that went well, looks like we won"? No one.

Fortinbras in Hamlet.

laudarkul
08-04-2013, 14:17
The main character, at Abaddon's right hand and who will become one of the Black Legion's founders, is Iskandar Khayon - a Thousand Son. He was in the Thousand Sons' inner circle of command, and unsuccessfully tried to stop the Rubric.

Just waiting for some spoilers which I hope that you'll provide to us ...And of course for the book; which looks so promising...A TS with such a name as a right hand of Abaddon just opens a box of promises...WAITING FOR THE BOOOOOKKKKKKKK...

Goosey_J
10-04-2013, 16:44
Fortinbras in Hamlet.

In the context of Denmark as a singular nation, no one won. The "hope" presented for Denmark at the end of Hamlet is that Norway's king will come and "unify" (see: take over) Denmark with Norway and serve as its ruler. Denmark as a country ceases to be. Not really a great end.


Macbeth?

Macduffs Family is dead, but the Kings sons get their kingdom back, and the king of England gets some good PR with minimal losses in his Scottish campaign...

Though thats just one way of looking at it.

Again, debatable. But you've acknowledged that :)

stormblade
10-04-2013, 17:32
In the context of Denmark as a singular nation, no one won. The "hope" presented for Denmark at the end of Hamlet is that Norway's king will come and "unify" (see: take over) Denmark with Norway and serve as its ruler. Denmark as a country ceases to be. Not really a great end.


It is for Fortinbras as he gets land and taxes without actually having to bother with war and all that jazz.
Edit: granted- for Denmark it is bad, but for Fortinbras as a character it is an awesome turn of events as he was planning to conquer Denmark anyway and by such a turn of events he did it without having to expand his resources.

Soul Hunter
19-04-2013, 08:06
Evacuating Prospero; winged Dark Eldar women; talking to Rubricae; and strangling one of the Emperor's Children. On to Chapter II.


So much to love already. :D


SH