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seb2304
02-04-2013, 18:10
wouldn't it me great if GW actually took notice of our wishlisting to see what needs changing or what we, THEIR CUSTOMERS would like...They wouldn't have to do everything, only sensible and popular things, but it would make the hobby lots more enjoyable.what do you think?

Lord Damocles
02-04-2013, 18:15
...They wouldn't have to do everything, only sensible and popular things...
There's your problem.


One person's 'sensible and popular' is another person's Codex: Grey Knights.

Scammel
02-04-2013, 18:46
'Sensible' doesn't really fit the 'wow' factor that GW need to cramming into each release. They pretty obviously do pay attention to what people want though, stuff like the Dark Apostle, Warpsmith and Cultists are good examples of that.

duffybear1988
02-04-2013, 19:21
'Sensible' doesn't really fit the 'wow' factor that GW need to cramming into each release. They pretty obviously do pay attention to what people want though, stuff like the Dark Apostle, Warpsmith and Cultists are good examples of that.

Well they gave them to us once and then took them away so does that really count? I mean nobody asked them to take them away and they still did.

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-04-2013, 05:55
Have you actually read the wish listing going on? Most of that would be terrible. 40 people or 100 people on warseer all shouting about something does not guarantee that a given idea would be good, work for the game, not break something else or even be popular.

m1acca1551
03-04-2013, 06:24
Dear GW,

I wish for a space marine army that rofl stomps every thing in it's path, that has a fairly low model count so me and my bestest buddies can buy them and become uber stratergist generals.

Love

Little timmy

Codex grey knights :P

I do believe that they do, some of the time. But remember that when GW plan a dex or army book they begin the process early, wish listing only really happens well 2-3 months out from release when we get a little birdy tweeting about what army is next.

blongbling
03-04-2013, 07:11
what is sensible to one person, is ludicrous to another

xavos
03-04-2013, 08:15
It might lead to a case of too many divergent ideas and not enough focus. In this case I think it's better to leave it to the design team, who have to pour over old archives, artwork and books and come to a sorting process based on their design brief. I've no doubt though that they quite freely use peoples ideas from fan sites, submissions and existing fantasy/sci-fi lore.

duffybear1988
03-04-2013, 08:24
It would be nice if they just put all the stuff they took out back in. I'm thinking of Eldar in particular here - I would love to get my Ulthwe strike force out for a game or 2, but they were removed for some reason (probably because BS4 S4 12" range guns were overpowered...).

Having seen what's happened to the Tau codex however, I don't hold much hope for anything worthwhile coming from their new long awaited codex.

Darnok
03-04-2013, 09:52
No.

We would get lots and lots of these: 167940

shelfunit.
03-04-2013, 10:07
No.

We would get lots and lots of these: 167940

That's awesome!!! I assume if it has flaming attacks, moves and fires and is only 75pts they won't be able to get them out the warehouse fast enough (but only to modellers and painters, hardly anyone else buys them...)

New Cult King
03-04-2013, 10:22
That's awesome!!! I assume if it has flaming attacks, moves and fires and is only 75pts they won't be able to get them out the warehouse fast enough (but only to modellers and painters, hardly anyone else buys them...)

And while I agree, the super cynical part of me questions why GW hasn't already done this :cries:

zoggin-eck
03-04-2013, 10:22
Yeah, agree with the replies here (especially Darnok!)

GW's customers range from people who've played for decades to people who just started, from whingers who complain online about them but don't actually buy or play their games, to people who buy every book and game without even reading up on it first. Defining them as one single entity is silly. Besides, who says they don't already, in some way? They may well chose a few ideas that they think would work, and build upon them. It's easy for people to say they don't use feedback, when it isn't "their" feedback. They don't always make the models/rules I'd like to see, but if they did, they'd have gone under a long time ago :)

Besides, some of the worst ideas I've seen have been from "wishlists".

Sotek
03-04-2013, 10:29
The just need to be willing to radically FAQ things that need it including things like core rules and weapons and points and stuff.

IJW
03-04-2013, 10:38
Rending Ponies. Enough said...

ehlijen
03-04-2013, 10:55
Even if there were only suggestions everyone agreed weren't unreasonable, you'd still get people arguing over which suggestion would lead to a more fun game.

Take the Riptide. Many like it, others are annoyed GW is threatening to take back it's 'Tau don't do Titans' stance. Should they be more Gundam or more Starship Troopers(book)?

But yes, there is also the fact that most wishlisting is done from a biased perspective. It's about improving your army (be it in power or flavour), or maybe you'll even keep in mind how it affects your buddies' armies; but will you truly consider how all other armies would be affected by every one of your suggestions? Because that's actually a not inconsiderable amount of mental effort.

Hengist
03-04-2013, 12:00
Were GW slavishly to follow internet wishlisting, disaster would doubtless ensue. Taking notice, however, would be wise. A company which paid attention to what the fans wanted would, for instance, have given us the plastic traitor legion kits everybody was hoping for, rather than bloody dinobots. Nor would they have launched the disaster that was Dreadfleet, when fans have been for years clamouring for reissues of Warhammer Quest, Blood Bowl etc.

A company that cared about catering to its players' wishes would take note of the popularity of their RPGs, and make Rogue Traders and Deathwatch playable forces in 40k. Come to think of it, a company operated with common sense wouldn't pay millions for the Hobbit license, refuse to advertise it, and price out the non-gamers that it's perfectly placed to attract. Nor would they make the game based on their own best-selling novel series mail-order only, rather than seizing the opportunity to promote it in mainstream bookshops.

But GW's attitude remains, as it has always been, that they lead, and we follow - one of these days, that's going to cause their comeuppance, just as it did TSR.

TheDungen
03-04-2013, 12:31
There's a diffrence between keeping an ear to the ground and slavishly following the wishes of the community.
Take a look at blizzard entertainment they do a great job on their suggestions forums, they listen in and every now and then use the ideas they're given. That doesnt mean they feel limited to what is suggested there however. to quote Steve Jobs, "the consumer cannot desire what isn't invented yet, sometimes you have to know what your consumer wants better than he does"

New Cult King
03-04-2013, 13:41
There's a diffrence between keeping an ear to the ground and slavishly following the wishes of the community.
Take a look at blizzard entertainment they do a great job on their suggestions forums, they listen in and every now and then use the ideas they're given.

No, you're right. I remember that overwhelming cry for Pandaren PCs and the removal of weapon slots from Hunters and Mages etc.

Bigglesworth
03-04-2013, 14:02
No, you're right. I remember that overwhelming cry for Pandaren PCs and the removal of weapon slots from Hunters and Mages etc.


I actually prefer GW's impassive, fingers in ear stance. At least you know where you stand. While games companies like Bioware and Blizzard have a carefully managed (or not so carefully) PR facade of interacting with their communities, while in fact they just do what they like for the most part, relying on most of their fans being goldfish who can't remember promises they made a few months before. I'm not jaded about it, they sometimes have good reasons for doing their own thing, I just don't buy into the whole Developer community relations thing anymore.

lbecks
03-04-2013, 14:03
I have very broad wishes.

New Cult King
03-04-2013, 14:08
I actually prefer GW's impassive, fingers in ear stance. At least you know where you stand. While games companies like Bioware and Blizzard have a carefully managed (or not so carefully) PR facade of interacting with their communities, while in fact they just do what they like for the most part, relying on most of their fans being goldfish who can't remember promises they made a few months before. I'm not jaded about it, they sometimes have good reasons for doing their own thing, I just don't buy into the whole Developer community relations thing anymore.

I would offer a decent, deeply thought out, and soulful reply to your comment, but my tongue was so deeply buried in my cheek that I still can't speak straight ;)

BigbyWolf
03-04-2013, 14:57
I would offer a decent, deeply thought out, and soulful reply to your comment, but my tongue was so deeply buried in my cheek that I still can't speak straight ;)

Your cheek? :eek:

OT- No, it wouldn't be a good idea. At the moment GW (rather heroically...a bit like Batman) takes all the rage and hate thrown against them and deals with it. If we, as the community, have to blame ourselves for the state of the codices and armybooks, anarchy would reign.

duffybear1988
03-04-2013, 16:47
Games Workshop - the company that the world needs, not what it wants...

Gossipmeng
03-04-2013, 16:53
The problem is that everyone's wish list is different. Looking at the Tau, I couldn't care less as to whether kroot or vespid had any changes made to them (I wouldn't even miss them if they were removed from the codex), but others had their wish lists focuses specifically on changes to these units.

GW has to come up with solutions that please the masses and this is quite a challenge - they do a decent job of it though.

seb2304
03-04-2013, 19:44
There's a diffrence between keeping an ear to the ground and slavishly following the wishes of the community.
Take a look at blizzard entertainment they do a great job on their suggestions forums, they listen in and every now and then use the ideas they're given. That doesnt mean they feel limited to what is suggested there however. to quote Steve Jobs, "the consumer cannot desire what isn't invented yet, sometimes you have to know what your consumer wants better than he does"
thanks.this is what I meant...

ehlijen
04-04-2013, 00:43
I'm not actually sure whether GW is listening and considering to wishlists or not. I mean most of the wishlists do end up contradictory or filled with not good ideas, so that listening and wisely choosing would look very similar to not listening and making up your own stuff.

I'm not accusing GW of wisdom, but a few things they seem to do as people wanted: bigger badder suits, cultists, anything as troops for marines, kickbutt rules for (insert your faction) etc

And in my opinion, those didn't all make the game better, some did, but some also made it worse. But that is my opinion, obviously GW's differs.

I think they do listen, but they also have a plan for the game that's very different from what mine would be. And I think the situation is similar for most wishlisters, which is why they seem to not be listening to any one in particular from any one point of view.

Brother Asmodeus
04-04-2013, 07:14
NO. Good god no...

Hendarion
04-04-2013, 20:16
Dear GW,

I wish for a space marine army that rofl stomps every thing in it's path, that has a fairly low model count so me and my bestest buddies can buy them and become uber stratergist generals.

Love

Little timmy

Codex grey knights :P
Nop. Not Codex Grey Knights. Because they are so cheap points-wise, that they aren't anything close to "low model count". Otherwise exactly what would happen if *anybody* (politicians, companies) would listen to the broad masses: broad messes.

Daniel36
04-04-2013, 20:32
Wouldn't it be great if we just enjoyed our hobby a bit more?
*humptidum*

theunwantedbeing
04-04-2013, 20:58
wouldn't it me great if GW actually took notice of our wishlisting to see what needs changing or what we, THEIR CUSTOMERS would like...They wouldn't have to do everything, only sensible and popular things, but it would make the hobby lots more enjoyable.what do you think?

Erm.......you might want to actually take a look at a few wishlists that appear on here.

Obviously GW doing things like answering FAQ questions would be nice but well...fat chance of that happening

Lord Inquisitor
04-04-2013, 21:02
I'll echo the comments that the majority of wishlisting wouldn't make for a good game.

That said, it would be nice if they responded to feedback a bit more. Particularly regarding FAQs and tournament builds. There have been FAQs that have been problematic for years that could do with an update. What's your unmodified Ld for Spirit Leech? That unmodified Ld FAQ screwed up something that really wasn't an issue before. Or the contradiction regarding the Greedy Fist in the Ogre FAQ.

The other thing is to really take some feedback about the armies from competitive players. The 3+ ward save Tzeentch chaos characters were already a problem with the old book. So in the new book it's surprising to see discs beefed up and not only is there still an option for a 3+ ward but an ability to re-roll 1s too! This wasn't an obscure combo, it was pretty much the first thing I thought of when I saw it. How did they not see that Mark of Nurgle was going to be hands down the best mark for Daemon Princes or that WoC Daemon Princes are dramatically better than DoC ones? Since the books were clearly designed together wouldn't this be obvious? I'd be okay if the DoC DPs were significantly cheaper, but they're more expensive!

Of course GW says they're not interested in catering for competitive players but they should be. Not only are they a hefty chunk of their playerbase, but when it comes to balance you can't fix the system if you refuse to acknowledge how it can be broken.

paddyalexander
05-04-2013, 13:21
Wouldn't it be great if we just enjoyed our hobby a bit more?
*humptidum*

Since I've dropped gwPLC games & products from my hobby my enjoyment of it has increased immensely.

gwPLC is a company that has clearly demonstrated that it wants to communicate to its customers, not with them.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-04-2013, 14:33
Paradox does a good job of keeping the community involved, engaged, engrossed, whatever you may want to call it.



Of course GW says they're not interested in catering for competitive players but they should be. Not only are they a hefty chunk of their playerbase, but when it comes to balance you can't fix the system if you refuse to acknowledge how it can be broken.

I think GW knows best how much of a chunk each target group is. I'm pretty sure they've got a finely tuned and up-to-date-system of assessing and analysing and then fine-tuning some more the different types of customers and the impact on them as well as sales for whatever they do. Tournament players are either veterans who supposedly aren't that interesting commercially, or very "bug-resistent", ie. prepared to put up with a lot of stuff and just shrug.

BigbyWolf
06-04-2013, 08:39
Since I've dropped gwPLC games & products from my hobby my enjoyment of it has increased immensely.

gwPLC is a company that has clearly demonstrated that it wants to communicate to its customers, not with them.

This is where I am at the moment. Twilight Creations is one of the places I'm investing now, and they pay a lot of attention to customer feedback, they even run competitions now and then to allow people to submit their own ideas for incorporation into the games.

Senbei
06-04-2013, 10:03
Rending Ponies. Enough said...

I'd buy it!

P.S. It would never work. GW don't -DO- criticism of any sort. Their forums and facebook account testify to this.

Killgore
07-04-2013, 22:30
It would be suicide for any company that actually wants to make money to listen to internet keyboard warriors.

If Warseer had its way people could walk into a GW, crowd the place out for 6 hours undisturbed by staffers unless they wanted anything from the staff, use up all the stores paints and equipment, then walk away with a whole new army bought with pocket money. Not going to happen.

Ebon
10-04-2013, 08:55
GW should absolutely listen to our wishlisting. GW should NOT obey our wishlisting (although they seem to obey every bloody bit of Marine wishlisting).

There's a fine line to be struck between 1) bowing to every whim of a keyboard jockie,
2) just plain ignoring them,
3) outright antagonising them and
4) filtering out the good stuff or shortcomings that continually crop up.

Nobody thinks 1 would be a good idea. GW seems to oscillate between 2 and 3 depending on whim. 4 is where they should be. The world and it's wife has told them that Grey Knights are utterly broken and GW have gone with 2, just ignoring them. Every commenter on the game has told GW that their blatant Space Marine favoritism aggravates people but GW have just responded by making Marines ever more powerful (such as the 6th ed nerfing of power swords which was clearly just to make Terminators more invincible). There are a lot of bad ideas on the web, no-one's disputing that. But there are good ideas as well. Right now, GW seems determined to ignore the good ideas and implement the bad ones if it lets them sell more plastic crack. Some would say I'm attributing to evil what can easily be explained by stupidity. I say that's a false choice.

ewar
10-04-2013, 23:30
Since I've dropped gwPLC games & products from my hobby my enjoyment of it has increased immensely.

gwPLC is a company that has clearly demonstrated that it wants to communicate to its customers, not with them.

So you're not playing or buying GW products or games... but spend your time reading and posting in GW General forums. Hmmm... those other games you're playing must have really captured your interest. Good work.

Given the spittle inducing tirades of most of GWs customer base, I think they're better off just keep their mouths shut and smiling sweetly from behind the castle walls. They're not going to cut prices, which is pretty much the only thing most gamers demand, so rather than land themselves with more grief I don't really blame them.

I wish they were more responsive on rules changes/FAQs etc though.

Liber
10-04-2013, 23:58
Wouldn't it me great if we were older
Then we wouldn't have to wait so long
And wouldn't it me great to live together
In the kind of world where we belong


:shifty::shifty::shifty:

zoggin-eck
11-04-2013, 09:54
If anyone wants to see how over the place opinions of how a games company should go, and what to include, go read the general section of any large (pen and paper) RPG site. Scary stuff, and I though some GW players had a sense of entitlement.


So you're not playing or buying GW products or games... but spend your time reading and posting in GW General forums. Hmmm... those other games you're playing must have really captured your interest. Good work.

Yeah, I love all sorts of games and models, but this sort of attitude makes as much sense as me walking into a seafood restaurant just to tell people I don't like seafood.

paddyalexander
11-04-2013, 10:18
So you're not playing or buying GW products or games... but spend your time reading and posting in GW General forums. Hmmm... those other games you're playing must have really captured your interest. Good work.

I've been a war gamer for the last 20 years. For 16 of those years Games Workshops' games made up a sizeable portion of my hobby time. I own thousands of models, hundreds of books an have invested uncountable hours into painting, converting, playing and writing backgrounds for my own armies/gangs/teams/fleets. Honestly I can say I did the same for Battletech, various settings for D&D, Shadowrun and I heavily played the Star Wars and Star Trek CCGs over that time frame. I love the background (up until the changes they started making in 5th edition) for 40k.

If gwPLC were to fix all of the things I see that are wrong with their products, anti-customer policies and behaviour tomorrow I'd jump back into their game systems with a huge smile on their face. But I'm not to bothered as I still get to enjoy the 40k universe trough the great games that Fantasy Flight Games produce. Yes I want to play 40k and other games in the setting again, I can afford their (insane) prices, but won't waste my time & money when the value isn't there and there are other companies providing a better experience without punishing me for it.

In the mean time I'm loving other game systems. I love everything about Warmachine & Hordes, fantastic rules that are a blast to play while offering tactical depth and a wonderful progressive background that I really enjoy. X-Wing has the same easy to play but with massive tactical depth game play. Spartan Games' systems are great buckets of dice "beer & pretzels" games but doesn't use that as an excuse for badly written, poorly balanced rules.

I didn't stop playing gwPLC out of the blue or rage quit. It was simply a case of when meeting up with friends we would decide which game to play. Over a short amount of time 40k games got rarer and rarer until they stopped altogether in favour of games that are easier and more fun to play. What these systems did was highlight the major deficiencies in gwPLCs products and behaviour.

Nubl0
11-04-2013, 12:14
Still doesn't really explain why you would want to hang around a gw forum though, other than to advertise warmahordes like so many do. Anyway on topic, how would gw go about listening to the communit? One mans grey knight filth is perfectly fine to another.

Lord Inquisitor
11-04-2013, 13:57
I think GW knows best how much of a chunk each target group is. I'm pretty sure they've got a finely tuned and up-to-date-system of assessing and analysing and then fine-tuning some more the different types of customers and the impact on them as well as sales for whatever they do.
Perhaps. It depends, I suppose, on how much the suits control design direction and to what degree the studio has autonomy. Perhaps naive of me, but I've always got the impression the studio actually does design the games themselves without too much management from corporate. Even then, the vast overwhelming majority of wargamers play "tournament style". Not necessarily competitive gamers, but most, even "fluffy" gamers play pick up games, equal points, mirrored victory conditions, FOC etc. I don't think this is disputable and I can even dig up quotes from Jervis saying as much from the notes in Epic Armageddon. People like "fair" tournament style games.


Tournament players are either veterans who supposedly aren't that interesting commercially, or very "bug-resistent", ie. prepared to put up with a lot of stuff and just shrug.
Yikes. Didn't think of it like that. Tournament players being "bug-resistant" is a good point.

ewar
12-04-2013, 23:51
I've been a war gamer for the last 20 years. For 16 of those years Games Workshops' games made up a sizeable portion of my hobby time. I own thousands of models, hundreds of books an have invested uncountable hours into painting, converting, playing and writing backgrounds for my own armies/gangs/teams/fleets. Honestly I can say I did the same for Battletech, various settings for D&D, Shadowrun and I heavily played the Star Wars and Star Trek CCGs over that time frame. I love the background (up until the changes they started making in 5th edition) for 40k.

If gwPLC were to fix all of the things I see that are wrong with their products, anti-customer policies and behaviour tomorrow I'd jump back into their game systems with a huge smile on their face. But I'm not to bothered as I still get to enjoy the 40k universe trough the great games that Fantasy Flight Games produce. Yes I want to play 40k and other games in the setting again, I can afford their (insane) prices, but won't waste my time & money when the value isn't there and there are other companies providing a better experience without punishing me for it.

In the mean time I'm loving other game systems. I love everything about Warmachine & Hordes, fantastic rules that are a blast to play while offering tactical depth and a wonderful progressive background that I really enjoy. X-Wing has the same easy to play but with massive tactical depth game play. Spartan Games' systems are great buckets of dice "beer & pretzels" games but doesn't use that as an excuse for badly written, poorly balanced rules.

I didn't stop playing gwPLC out of the blue or rage quit. It was simply a case of when meeting up with friends we would decide which game to play. Over a short amount of time 40k games got rarer and rarer until they stopped altogether in favour of games that are easier and more fun to play. What these systems did was highlight the major deficiencies in gwPLCs products and behaviour.

None of this explains why you post over and over again in GW general - even the briefest scan through your post history shows this. Honestly, I think you'd be a much happier person if you just put it all behind you and focussed on something else. I just do not understand why wargamers seem to have such a need for self-flaggelation when it comes to their hobbies...

As for your statements about those other games... they are questionable at best, utter nonsense at worst. I am a big fan of Firestorm Armada but SGs rules writing is completely, irredeemably laughable. The rulebook is a complete mess, the FAQ changing wholesale pages so much they have released a revised PDF of the entire book on the website. I cut them more slack I think because they are a small company, but I've still sunk well over 150 in the rule book, fleets, a nice star map table etc so they don't really have any right to expect such treatment from their customers.

However there is nothing like the vitriol on the SG forums, purely because the player base is so much smaller.

Gaargod
13-04-2013, 00:04
I'm gonna vote with the others: Listen to it, don't necessarily obey them.

Customer interactions are one of GW's worse problems. Take the fiascos over the facebook page and the forums (hell, you're not allowed to discuss the flaws of stuff in GW shops, let alone mention their competition - though the latter at least has a purpose). Others have said before - they really need to rethink their policies on social media. A lot of the what ends up on warseer is crap - equally, some of it is very good and there are some brilliant suggestions in the rules development forums. You don't have to follow what they say, but keep it in mind. The Developers, assuming they have free reign (ha! At least, marginally restricted reign), in particular should be paying attention.