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taylor637
03-04-2013, 19:07
I've been thinking and maybe one of the missing legions is the legio costodes with Constantin Valdor as the primarch..... What do you guys think... Makes since to me

taylor637
03-04-2013, 19:09
That's sense

Prodigalson
03-04-2013, 19:10
I think you opened this thread in the wrong forum :-(. Try background. Prepare to get moved/closed.

ToXiK
03-04-2013, 19:19
I think in one of the books maybe nemisis valdor squares upto dorn but thinks he will get owned doesnt seem like a primarch to me

taylor637
03-04-2013, 19:23
Yea... But I can see them tieing them into being a legion in the future with maybe the emperor being there primarch so to speak

ToXiK
03-04-2013, 19:36
Yeah but they were around before the space marines and primarchs also one of them gets taken appart by a world eater in the outcast dead

Baaltor
03-04-2013, 19:43
Thank Horus, I thought I was about to read irrevocable proof that 40k had jumped the Astral Carcharodons.

Surgency
03-04-2013, 20:43
Essentially, no. All traces of the legions were expunged, supposedly they did something real bad. Several references are made in the Horus Heresy books that they were destroyed, and it was implied somewhere (wish I could remember where) that the Ultra's received any non-destroyed marines from those legions.

Nikolaus
03-04-2013, 20:47
Essentially, no. All traces of the legions were expunged, supposedly they did something real bad. Several references are made in the Horus Heresy books that they were destroyed, and it was implied somewhere (wish I could remember where) that the Ultra's received any non-destroyed marines from those legions.

So much so, that even the Traitors are talked about at some level of the Imperium. The Missing Two.. are forbidden to be talked about that most of the 40k universe didnt know they even existed..


Custodes were created from The Emperors gene stock, IIRC, they are all mini primarchs..

It would make sense that Valdor was one of the founding members of GK, considering their naming convention

taylor637
03-04-2013, 23:45
They go back and forth because in the first heretic vandatha took out 3 or 4 word bearers... I tend to think there better than the run of the mill AA

FashaTheDog
04-04-2013, 00:16
Hey, the real reason those Legions are missing is that the Emperor never learned to count in his long life and missed '2' and '11' then tried to cover his tracks with some lame excuse that "those two did something so naughty that none of you are even allowed to talk about them, so there." Either that or the missing Primarchs drank all the Emperor's good wine, stole his pristine Rolls Royce Phantom II, and crashed it before they used the entirety of his massive French Impressionist paintings collection for kindling of the bonfire they fueled with the Emperor's collection of famous instruments, including Mozart's piano. All in the Emperor's bedroom.

PrehistoricUFO
04-04-2013, 01:58
Thank Horus, I thought I was about to read irrevocable proof that 40k had jumped the Astral Carcharodons.

Ha ha, very funny. :D

samiens
04-04-2013, 02:21
Anyone noticed that on the cover of 'Sigillite' (the box so no spoilers-haven't listened to it yet) Malcador is sitting on a throne with the numbers 2 and 11 in Roman Numerals on skulls?
Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro1_342 using Board Express

javgoro
04-04-2013, 02:35
There is almost no information on them, but no, one of them isn't the Custodes. They were destroyed.

Some spoilers for Prospero Burns follow:

At the end of the book, Leman Russ implies that at least one of the two missing legions was purged by the Space Wolves on the orders of the Emperor, maybe both of them. There are a few other veiled references to this in The Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

m1acca1551
04-04-2013, 03:25
Nope the character is missing that unique x factor in terms of how others see him, when a primarch walks in the are represented as a glorious being almost angelic to others in the room even other SM. Constatine just doesn't have that X factor that marks him as a primarch.

Inquisitor Engel
04-04-2013, 03:46
They never have been and they never will be. Custodes are a very special, very specific creation of the Emperor's, greater than almost any Astartes. They were created prior to the Legions, as all 20 Primarchs are being guarded by the Custodes in "False Gods."

Your theory holds no water, sir.

Still Standing
04-04-2013, 04:43
Anyone noticed that on the cover of 'Sigillite' (the box so no spoilers-haven't listened to it yet) Malcador is sitting on a throne with the numbers 2 and 11 in Roman Numerals on skulls?
Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro1_342 using Board Express

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/the-sigillite-audio.html

I'd never noticed that before. It's fairly strong evidence that the Primarchs were killed.

ToXiK
04-04-2013, 05:37
Just looked at collected visions and it states that they were the first creation of the emps even before thunder warriors but stronger than sm.

captain ceaser
04-04-2013, 08:48
Im sorry for the rage but please please please realise that GW will NEVER ever reveal the names/identity of the missing legions and or primarchs. Their mentioned as teasers in the HH series but they have existed since so early in the game creation and people are still talking about them. Thats the point of them! Its to allow players to invent their own legions/chapters and to add that little mystery to the game.

deathspank
04-04-2013, 09:00
Im sorry for the rage but please please please realise that GW will NEVER ever reveal the names/identity of the missing legions and or primarchs. Their mentioned as teasers in the HH series but they have existed since so early in the game creation and people are still talking about them. Thats the point of them! Its to allow players to invent their own legions/chapters and to add that little mystery to the game.

this is exactly correct, the two missing legions sole purpose is to make people post thread like this,they are a talking point, they are a mystery to keep people guessing, much of GWs fluff is written to allow for us the players to develop our own storys, this is something that is lost on many players, alot of people need GW to fill in the blanks for them, they lack imagination, its always quite nice when someone throws the codex fluff out of the window and develops there own chapter of marines,guard regiment/craftworld/ork Klan etc

ToXiK
04-04-2013, 12:21
They started out like that but now people get berated for saying there home brew chapter was first or secound founding and bl have come out and said they are both dead and gone so we may get a big reveal at some point but not that they are custodians

Jedi152
04-04-2013, 12:41
I've merged the thread in General into the Background thread. Please only start one thread on a topic in the appropriate forum.

Jedi152
WarSeer Moderation Team.

JWhex
04-04-2013, 14:38
Initially they were just a throw away teaser. However, there have been multiple instances in conversations in the HH books that leave no question that the two legions somehow fell afoul of the emperor and were destroyed by the Space Wolves and perhaps other legions. The fate of these legions could make a good novel or they could just continue to be a mystery of the IoM. The problem with using them as a basis for a homebrew chapter now is that you would be stuck in the 30th millenium since they were obviously destroyed before the heresy.

Even before the HH books I thought it was obvious that they must have been destroyed due to some terrible crime because the traitor marines were listed. It seemed to me that the records for the traitor marines would be censored but since they were not and the 2 and 11 were then they must have done something really off the charts shameful.

In real life the records of some of my own ancestors were destroyed because they were Puritans living in England and an embarassment to thier politically connected orthodox relatives, this has always contributed to my curiosity about this particular piece of 40k fluff.

Marshal
04-04-2013, 16:13
Initially they were just a throw away teaser. However, there have been multiple instances in conversations in the HH books that leave no question that the two legions somehow fell afoul of the emperor and were destroyed by the Space Wolves and perhaps other legions. The fate of these legions could make a good novel or they could just continue to be a mystery of the IoM. The problem with using them as a basis for a homebrew chapter now is that you would be stuck in the 30th millenium since they were obviously destroyed before the heresy.

Even before the HH books I thought it was obvious that they must have been destroyed due to some terrible crime because the traitor marines were listed. It seemed to me that the records for the traitor marines would be censored but since they were not and the 2 and 11 were then they must have done something really off the charts shameful.

In real life the records of some of my own ancestors were destroyed because they were Puritans living in England and an embarassment to thier politically connected orthodox relatives, this has always contributed to my curiosity about this particular piece of 40k fluff.

Not necessarily stuck in the 30k era as there are many explanations as to why they are gone or where they are gone. There are far more galaxies than just the Milky Way, and many places even within it that are yet to be explored, or at least rediscovered. They could have very well been "destroyed" but have in all actuality hidden themselves out of the reach of the Imperium. That's the greatest part of the fluff of the 40k game, anything can be anywhere at any time for any reason.

DarianZG
04-04-2013, 19:13
Anyone noticed that on the cover of 'Sigillite' (the box so no spoilers-haven't listened to it yet) Malcador is sitting on a throne with the numbers 2 and 11 in Roman Numerals on skulls?
Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro1_342 using Board Express


The 2 lost legions have almost nothing to do with the story. They are only mentioned tangentially with nothing else revealed. It seems like the two numbers were just added to Malcador's throne for no other reason other than to make it seem more mysterious.

JWhex
05-04-2013, 01:38
Not necessarily stuck in the 30k era as there are many explanations as to why they are gone or where they are gone. There are far more galaxies than just the Milky Way, and many places even within it that are yet to be explored, or at least rediscovered. They could have very well been "destroyed" but have in all actuality hidden themselves out of the reach of the Imperium. That's the greatest part of the fluff of the 40k game, anything can be anywhere at any time for any reason.

In several of the Horus Heresy books it is strongly alluded that the missing two legions have been destroyed, ie conversations between Dorn and the Sigillite, Russ and his skald, and Guilliman and Lorgar. It is just like people holding out hope that Ferrus is not dead even though Fulgrim handed his head over to Horus.

Unless you want to disregard what is written in the Horus Heresy books, the 2nd and 11th were obviously destroyed because of some transgression they committed against the Emperor, its just not that hard to figure out.

Marshal
05-04-2013, 13:32
In several of the Horus Heresy books it is strongly alluded that the missing two legions have been destroyed, ie conversations between Dorn and the Sigillite, Russ and his skald, and Guilliman and Lorgar. It is just like people holding out hope that Ferrus is not dead even though Fulgrim handed his head over to Horus.

Unless you want to disregard what is written in the Horus Heresy books, the 2nd and 11th were obviously destroyed because of some transgression they committed against the Emperor, its just not that hard to figure out.

Fulgrim has Ferrus' head, that is pretty obvious, however just stating that something was "destroyed" without ever any mention of the how or why leads to the possibility of it not being done so completely and quite possibly not completed at all.

JWhex
05-04-2013, 14:17
Fulgrim has Ferrus' head, that is pretty obvious, however just stating that something was "destroyed" without ever any mention of the how or why leads to the possibility of it not being done so completely and quite possibly not completed at all.

No, its just that some people do not have to have something literally and unequivocally spoon fed to them for it to be obvious.

Harwammer
07-04-2013, 15:10
There never was a 2nd or eleventh legion. II and 11 just looks too similar and there was too much room for confusion when transcribing documents.

;)

The Warmaster
10-04-2013, 13:37
I've been thinking and maybe one of the missing legions is the legio costodes with Constantin Valdor as the primarch..... What do you guys think... Makes since to me

Probably not possible, since, as has been said, the Custodes - including Valdor - had been guarding all 20 Primarchs at the time that they were spread throughout the Warp (see False Gods). Of course, that WAS seen in a vision supposedly from the Chaos Gods, and guided by Erebus, but it doesn't seem like there'd be any need to deceive Horus by putting the Custodes in there, especially since it was implied that he already knew what befell the lost Primarchs.


Some spoilers for Prospero Burns follow:

At the end of the book, Leman Russ implies that at least one of the two missing legions was purged by the Space Wolves on the orders of the Emperor, maybe both of them. There are a few other veiled references to this in The Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns.

Betrayer sheds some doubt on this, though...

Spoilers for both it and Prospero Burns:

In Prospero Burns, Russ only mentions that Marines had fought other Marines before, not that they necessarily wiped out any Legion(s), and - IIRC - the other references in the Wolves/Sons duology were much more vague than that.

Then, come Betrayer... the World Eaters reflect on an event known as the "Night of the Wolf" fairly frequently, where the SWs and WEs fought each other throughout the course of a night, after Russ tried to get Angron to stop the implantation of the combat implants (Butcher's Nails) into his Marines. When he's recalling it, Angron even reflects on how he never figured out why the Big E called Russ his executioner - whereas you'd think he would be party to any knowledge of Legion-killing on the Wolves' part. Of course, not every Primarch might know the full story, and it doesn't have to rule it out, but it matches up with the talk of the SWs "being loosed" on other Astartes Legions from the duology, The Outcast Dead (I think), and so forth.

Kebert Xela
11-04-2013, 19:36
If it was a vision from the chaos gods does that mean Horus didnt really crack the capsule when he hit it (he punches the 2 or 11 one i dont remeber). I always assumed that Horus really did go back in time (though he didnt look liike himself sine the emperor gives him the verbal middle finger) and when he hit the capsule he messed up one of the lost primarchs since the crack led to said primarch being corrupted in some way via transit by warp to whatever planet he landed on and thus needing to be put down by Russ........

Shaft, Lord of Slaanesh
13-04-2013, 19:57
Anyone noticed that on the cover of 'Sigillite' (the box so no spoilers-haven't listened to it yet) Malcador is sitting on a throne with the numbers 2 and 11 in Roman Numerals on skulls?
Sent from my RM-821_eu_euro1_342 using Board Express

But did you also notice that the mask at his feet is similar to the one he is described as wearing as the master/head of Assassins in Nemesis. Draw your own conclusions :P

LordShaft.

dreadlord_darkwaters
12-05-2013, 22:19
never menions or inclines that they fell from the emperors view. when the primarch talk about the two its with sorrow that something happened to them. in fulgrim there is a small reference when fulgrim is thinking about his legion almost being destroyed by an accident where he mentions one of the missing legions having suffered a same fate.

Stonerhino
12-05-2013, 23:35
Betrayer sheds some doubt on this, though...

Spoilers for both it and Prospero Burns:
In Prospero Burns, Russ only mentions that Marines had fought other Marines before, not that they necessarily wiped out any Legion(s), and - IIRC - the other references in the Wolves/Sons duology were much more vague than that.

Then, come Betrayer... the World Eaters reflect on an event known as the "Night of the Wolf" fairly frequently, where the SWs and WEs fought each other throughout the course of a night, after Russ tried to get Angron to stop the implantation of the combat implants (Butcher's Nails) into his Marines. When he's recalling it, Angron even reflects on how he never figured out why the Big E called Russ his executioner - whereas you'd think he would be party to any knowledge of Legion-killing on the Wolves' part. Of course, not every Primarch might know the full story, and it doesn't have to rule it out, but it matches up with the talk of the SWs "being loosed" on other Astartes Legions from the duology, The Outcast Dead (I think), and so forth.The problem with that is:

The quote from Prospero Burns is "Astartes fighting Astartes and the 6th sent to sanction another Legion". So unless the SWs sanctioned the WEs in Betrayer (they did not). Then it does not shead any light on the precident talked about in Prospero Burns.Lorgar's reaction when he hears Russ' reason to not break his Legion is more telling:~First Heretic.
‘I am,’ Lorgar confessed. ‘I fear the Emperor will break the Word Bearers – and break me. We would be cast alongside the brothers we no longer speak of.’

[snip]

‘Leman Russ spoke in my favour?’ Lorgar laughed. ‘Truly, we live in an age of marvels.’
Magnus didn’t share the amusement. His lone eye was a deep, arctic blue as it fixed upon Lorgar. ‘He did. The Space Wolves are a spiritual Legion, in their own stunted and blind way. Fenris is an unmerciful cradle, and it breeds such things in them. Russ knows that, though he lacks the intelligence to give it voice. Instead, he swore that he’d already lost two brothers, and had no desire to lose a third.’
‘Two already lost.’ Lorgar looked back to the city. ‘I still recall how they—’
‘Enough,’ warned Magnus. ‘Honour the oath you took that day.’
‘You all find it so easy to forget the past. None of you ever wish to speak of what was lost. But could you do it again?’ Lorgar met his brother’s eyes. ‘Could you stand with Horus or Fulgrim, and never again speak my name purely because of a promise?’Especially when you use that to put into contexts what Lorgar says to calm down Russ in the Arc Reach cluster: ~A Thousand Sons.
“Get out of the way, Lorgar,” snarled Leman Russ, his veneer of apparent calm slipping for a moment. “This does not concern you.”
“Two of my brothers about to draw each other’s blood?” said Lorgar. “That concerns me.”
“Get out of my way,” repeated Russ, his fingers flexing on the hide-wound grip of his sword. “Or so help me—”
“What? You will cut me down too?”
Russ hesitated, and Lorgar stepped towards him.Not that any of that proves the Wolves did it. There is just way more evidence that they did it. Then Betrayer can even pretend to counter.

Fortheempire
13-05-2013, 00:03
They were grounded by the Emp for staying out late and bringing non-primarch girls home. When he sets a curfew you damn well get home by that time

Asdrubael108
02-06-2013, 16:29
Well soken deathspank!

I tottaly agree!

Asdrubael108
02-06-2013, 16:30
(correction) Spoken!

Rhaivaen
07-06-2013, 00:04
this is exactly correct, the two missing legions sole purpose is to make people post thread like this,they are a talking point, they are a mystery to keep people guessing, much of GWs fluff is written to allow for us the players to develop our own storys, this is something that is lost on many players, alot of people need GW to fill in the blanks for them, they lack imagination, its always quite nice when someone throws the codex fluff out of the window and develops there own chapter of marines,guard regiment/craftworld/ork Klan etc

Besides the "anti 2nd and 11th fluff people" that try to shoot any original fluff made in this regard,
I made an attempt to get a bit of fluff going, but people seem to not like this at all :).. I have some thoughts on it though.. good read anyway..