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IcedAnimals
05-04-2013, 07:09
So the new book has seen its way into many peoples hands. I even got a chance to go through it today. But I didn't get much chance to check for lots of new fluff. I did notice that the damocles gulf has been slightly worded differently. The way it is written the imperial forces didn't decide to stop attacking the tau they were "allowed" to leave.

Anyone else get their hand on the new book and see any fluff changes?

Horus38
05-04-2013, 12:48
<-- bit of a fluff addict.

Is the Iron Hammer campaign (believe that's the name) foreshadowed in the last Tyranid codex included/expanded upon?

IcedAnimals
06-04-2013, 00:54
Not that I saw. I looked for that bit too.

TheDungen
06-04-2013, 06:49
i preferred it back when the tau thought they won but the imperium was really only redeploying to take a care of a real threat.

Bad monkey
06-04-2013, 08:12
i preferred it back when the tau thought they won but the imperium was really only redeploying to take a care of a real threat.

I don't have the dex, but is it told from a tau perspective. In which case it could just be tau/imperial propaganda depending on where you read it.

Killgore
06-04-2013, 11:02
Shas'O Kais gets mentioned in the timeline.

Nice to see GW acknowledging THQ's character creation, apparently he was also a Protégé of Commander Puretide.


Most interesting piece of information for me was the mention of 'Sha'Galudd' the name of a planet of mind controlling worms called the Nagi. Firstly I enjoyed the Stargate reference in the planet name and secondly these mind controlling worms now work closely with Tau Ethereals as advisers. Could they be controlling the Tau empire? OR aiding the Ethereals with their dominion over lesser races/ subjects.

Kakapo42
06-04-2013, 11:41
Shas'O Kais gets mentioned in the timeline.

Nice to see GW acknowledging THQ's character creation, apparently he was also a Protégé of Commander Puretide.


Most interesting piece of information for me was the mention of 'Sha'Galudd' the name of a planet of mind controlling worms called the Nagi. Firstly I enjoyed the Stargate reference in the planet name and secondly these mind controlling worms now work closely with Tau Ethereals as advisers. Could they be controlling the Tau empire? OR aiding the Ethereals with their dominion over lesser races/ subjects.

Any mention of Shas'la'Kais? I always rather liked him...

I certainly hope this mind-controlling Nagi thing is a red herring. Evil mind-controlled/mind-controlling Tau isn't what I signed on for, and I'm rather hoping the new background takes a turn back towards it's bright hopeful roots.

Ordo Hydra
06-04-2013, 12:28
Heh, Stargate in Warhammer... that sounds a bit of fun actually.

Any mention of the Demiurg? Or Tarellian Dog Soldiers? The former I remember some people saying that they might get a big entry into the Tau but not seen anything to indicate that. I don't see any Demiurg miniatures on the GW website so I am guessing no army units but not sure about fluff.

childsoldier
06-04-2013, 13:23
Nice to see they've added a new race or two fluff wise at least, that was the most disappointing thing about the models released for me. Interested in anything new regarding the Kroot if someone feels like sharing, particularly if anything is said of their extra-Empire mercenary activities?

Killgore
06-04-2013, 14:26
Heh, Stargate in Warhammer... that sounds a bit of fun actually.

Any mention of the Demiurg? Or Tarellian Dog Soldiers? The former I remember some people saying that they might get a big entry into the Tau but not seen anything to indicate that. I don't see any Demiurg miniatures on the GW website so I am guessing no army units but not sure about fluff.

Havnt found any mention yet,


There's a short story in the timeline about Tau encountering 'cruel' Eldar raiders and end up destroying a maiden world thinking it was their base. This has led to poor relations with the Eldar


Tau now keep certain commanders in stasis, often they have served under Puretide. This explains Shadowsun serving in the 3rd sphere expansion.

Void Reaper
06-04-2013, 16:25
Wouldn't the Shagallud be a reference to Dune, not Stargate? (I'm not terribly familiar with Stargate)

dragonet111
06-04-2013, 17:01
Wouldn't the Shagallud be a reference to Dune, not Stargate? (I'm not terribly familiar with Stargate)

I think he is speaking of the Goa'uld, a serpent-like parasite that control his/her host.

ashendant
06-04-2013, 17:16
Here are a few races mentioned in Lexicanum about the 6th edition codex


The Greet are an invertebrate Xenos species from the Ocean World world of Isla'su. They joined the Tau Empire after the Earth Caste agreed to build them many floating factories. This in turn paid for the protection of their planet by Tau Space Stations and allowed the Greet to contribute to the Greater Good.[1]

The Anthrazods are a species of the Tau Empire. They are considered by the Tau to be a sturdy if not dim-witted race and have proved well-suited for asteroid mining.[1]


The Brachyura are a species that has joined the Tau Empire native to a planet of the same name. A tiny dexterous-limbed crustacean race, they are unmatched in the delicate assembly of of small plasma generators needed to fuel Tau Earth Caste inventions.[1]

IcedAnimals
06-04-2013, 17:25
still nothing to explain their battle brother status with space marines. I was really hoping to see farsight expanded upon as he is the most interested part of their fluff. But nothing there either.

Polaria
06-04-2013, 17:57
Several notes on fluff:

- Tau are described as far more ruthless than in previous fluff. Gone are the days of "nice Tau". They are out to carve and Empire and the method is to kick ass and annihilate cultures. Yes, they still send Water caste to offer a sweet deal first and if it seems to work, they'll take their time, but if the alien world does not surrender will be bombed to stone-age and beyond. There is also several mentions of Tau destroying whole planets and conducting genocide on races that don't surrender. They are still described to be somewhat nicer than Imperium, but just barely.

- The Ethereal control over Tau is described as being total. "Were an Ethereal to order a Tau to kill himself, he would be met with instant obedience."

- The source of Ethereal control is not disclosed. Three possible explanations (Psychics, Technology, Pheromones) are put forward but no hint is given on which, if any, of them is the true reason for the control.

- Tau do not use Warp-based space travel. At all. In any way. No sign of earlier fluff on space travel is here. First stage expansion is not explained, but second stage was done using "ZFR Horizon Accelerator Engine" which "allowed ships to attain near-light speed". Third stage is done with "impulse reactors" which "propelled starcraft forward at hitherto unthinkable velocities". I would assume this to be true FTL travel, but still slowish since "to further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth Caste had outfitted transport craft with large stasis chambers - Aloowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zone months or years away without actually aging a day in the process."

- Demiurg have been apparently axed. There is a whole bunch of new xeno races namedropped here and there, but Demiurg is not one of the names.

- Commander Farsights resistance of Greater Good still goes unexplained, but his mind was apparently changed after everyone else in his unit but himself was slain by a an unknown enemy on world of Arthas Moloch "a desterted world save for strange monuments and ruined shirnes of some long-forgotten culture". "Soon, however, the mysterious beings disappeared with the same suddenness with which they had arrived." The Dawn Blade was looted from the ruins of Arthas Moloch.

- The last hint on Farsight is a little quote of his own personal recordings: "I've seen things you wouldn't believe - Entire worlds in flames, chains of supernovas on the edge of nothingness, the great hole is space. I am changed, an outcast now..."

- No word, absolutely nothing is said on any Tau being particularly resistant or immune to warp or psychics.

Now I haven't yet read all the unit descriptions word-by-word, just had time enough to scour through the fluff one the pages leading to unit descriptions, but this is what we have so far.

cornonthecob
06-04-2013, 19:53
- The last hint on Farsight is a little quote of his own personal recordings: "I've seen things you wouldn't believe - Entire worlds in flames, chains of supernovas on the edge of nothingness, the great hole is space. I am changed, an outcast now..."
.

So...the dawn blade is a chaos artefact (working with previous fluff) and the blade has shown Farsight how the 40k universe is. No wonder he broke away from the tau.

ashendant
06-04-2013, 19:58
If you really want to read stuff about the new codex check http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=500 and look at anything updated lately by Harriticus, he's been updating everything about it.

I love how the Tau communications technology and their study of sunbursting technology was developed.

Two more races


The Nagi are a xenos race from the world of Sha'galudd. Highly intelligent worm-like creatures, the small Nagi are known for their mind control abities. When they were first discovered by the Tau Empire, they were despised by the Tau, who fought a series of violent conflicts with them. However they have since agreed to a peace accord and have joined the Tau Empire. Nagi's frequently serve as advisors to the Ethereal Caste.[1]


The Poctroon were a xenos species which are notable for being the first sentient race to join the Tau Empire in 893.M37. However within a fe generations, disease destroyed the indigenous population. The Tau, who are immune to the plague, inherit the Poctroons homeworld, renaming it Bork'an and turning it into a prime world.[1]

I hope the Tau didn't do what I think they did to the Poctroon. That would be very very disappointing.

Ordo Hydra
06-04-2013, 20:20
By the Emperor... some nice feats there by the Tau. Continent sized space stations? Attempts to harvest the energy from stars? Having starkilling weaponry?

Disappointment about the lack of Demiurg though... or even Tarellians. I always thought the Dog Soldiers would be nice additions and Tyranid experts since their homeworld got eaten up by a hive fleet. Any mention of the Noisome Reek? The last codex mentioned how the Tau hated them and would seek to wipe them out.

Nikolaus
06-04-2013, 20:22
So...the dawn blade is a chaos artefact (working with previous fluff) and the blade has shown Farsight how the 40k universe is. No wonder he broke away from the tau.

sure does seem like he has seen The Eye..

and explains how he is still alive w/o being put into stasis, as the new fluff is explaining away how shadowsun isnt dead yet.

I am disappointed that the dex has nothing on R'alai or R'Myr, because Taros is old enough a book to just have the models be moved from being a FW book to be in standard Dex.

Iron_Lord
06-04-2013, 20:38
I am disappointed that the dex has nothing on R'alai or R'Myr, because Taros is old enough a book to just have the models be moved from being a FW book to be in standard Dex.

It does mention the Taros campaign in the timeline though.

The Piranha and Skyray were in Taros before they were in the main Dex.

It is a bit of a pity they didn't include more, agreed.

Inquisitor Engel
06-04-2013, 22:03
"I've seen things you wouldn't believe - Entire worlds in flames, chains of supernovas on the edge of nothingness, the great hole is space. I am changed, an outcast now..."


Was this before he expired and froze in place? :rolleyes:

starlight
06-04-2013, 22:56
"I've seen things you wouldn't believe - Entire worlds in flames, chains of supernovas on the edge of nothingness, the great hole is space. I am changed, an outcast now..."


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. *laughs* Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like *coughs* tears in rain. Time to die. - Roy Batty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tears_in_rain_soliloquy

avien
06-04-2013, 23:04
The change that I dislike the most is the interstellar travel. Take the first sphere expansion - It's hard to believe that the Tau could have settled 8 systems and kept a coherent and centrally controlled empire running without FTL capability. The older codexes stated these initial 8 septs spanned over 300 light years. The new codex doesn't state otherwise so this stands.

It mentions contact with the Kroot took place while they were still using sub light drives, they became involved in their war with the orks but held out for reinforcements from Sa'cea... How close was Sa'cea and how long where they holding out??! At sub light, even if it was only 10 light years, it would still take decades depending on how fast exactly their sub light capabilities were.

Even their ZFR Horizon Accelerator Engine developed prior to the second sphere expansion only attained "near light speed". Let's be clear, I don't care how dense a star cluster they are in, even just light speed isn't enough for the kind of organisation and coordination, trade and reinforcements, redeployment etc that is stated in the codex. Look at the Ork Waaaagh! A huge fleet that they detected and moved forces to raid and intercept, organised between a number of septs. Now last time I checked orks had warp capable ships.... How exactly were they outmanoeuvred by a bunch of sub light ships??!

Their most recently upgraded impulse reactor boosted ships are only described as being faster again, presumably this means true FTL but it's ridiculously undefined.

I think that the previously established gravitic warp drive was a better fit. Ironically I have always wanted Tau to be like the Necrons and follow a different technological route to most species for FTL and now they have, but it sucks worse than the gravitic drive which was a fifth the speed of the imperial warp drives.

Funnily enough I expected GW to retain the gravitic drive when they abandoned the Necrons true FTL and gave them access to the webway instead... Another stupid change in my opinion, but it made sense when it appeared they were trying to tie all FTL to the warp, but now they seem to want to give tau the tech they took from the Necrons, more or less... You know, just not even functionally useful...

starlight
06-04-2013, 23:20
...demands for science-y stuff...

:p

Do bear in mind that anyone with the knowledge required to write the sort of background you are wanting is unlikely to either be working for GW or (if they somehow managed to get hired) unlikely to last long enough to make it to a position where they could influence the background in such a fundamental way. Most of GW's core background was written by a bunch of stoned 20/30-somethings in the mid seventies to mid-eighties. Little (if any) has been written by anyone with engineering or astrophysics degrees.

GW's background is far more sensible if one accepts that GW specialises in handwavium for kids, not makesenseium for adults. The background is just there to create a backdrop for selling toys, not as an internally coherent and consistent universe.

malika
07-04-2013, 01:02
Hmm, don't know if 40k was really meant for kids. I mean it has always been rather dark and twisted. The old Confrontation game really didn't seem to have been created for your average 12-13 year olds. Whilst it didn't have the flashy action figure like models we have now, it did have some very twisted and detailed background, which has kinda gona missing in this last edition. :(

Void Reaper
07-04-2013, 01:29
- The last hint on Farsight is a little quote of his own personal recordings: "I've seen things you wouldn't believe - Entire worlds in flames, chains of supernovas on the edge of nothingness, the great hole is space. I am changed, an outcast now..."


Echoes of Roy Batty's tears-in-rain/Tannhauser Gate speech!

EDIT: Missed Starlight's earlier post above...

starlight
07-04-2013, 01:35
:shifty:


:shifty:

Ronin no Matsu
07-04-2013, 02:28
- The Ethereal control over Tau is described as being total. "Were an Ethereal to order a Tau to kill himself, he would be met with instant obedience."


That's nothing new, was there too in the two previous codex.


So...the dawn blade is a chaos artefact (working with previous fluff) and the blade has shown Farsight how the 40k universe is. No wonder he broke away from the tau.

I don't see how it means it's a chaos artefact, could someone explain?

barrangas
07-04-2013, 02:51
Was this before he expired and froze in place? :rolleyes:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought this. Rutger Howard did it better than Farsight IMO :D.

barrangas
07-04-2013, 02:59
Do bear in mind that anyone with the knowledge required to write the sort of background you are wanting is unlikely to either be working for GW or (if they somehow managed to get hired) unlikely to last long enough to make it to a position where they could influence the background in such a fundamental way. Most of GW's core background was written by a bunch of stoned 20/30-somethings in the mid seventies to mid-eighties. Little (if any) has been written by anyone with engineering or astrophysics degrees.

I don't know, I learned about the whole relativistic speed thing when I was in middle school. Because school was more about crushing your dreams they didn't focus on how awesome science is, so they didn't bother going into theories on how we might be able to travel interstellar distances. Also I'd love for the Tau to go "Screw you Warp, we have Fing Wormholes".

ForgottenLore
07-04-2013, 05:28
I'm glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought this. Rutger Howard did it better than Farsight IMO :D.

Just picture Rutger Tau-ard as Farsight saying it (probably to Aun'Shi) and it works.

Polaria
07-04-2013, 06:47
Some more mixed remarks as I've progressed in my reading...

- The undefined FTL technology is, IMO, just fine. The Ethereals have total control over the society and the septs are very, very independent in terms of resources and military so "slower than light empire" plausible in the first phase when it was only a handfull of systems anyway. All you really need is to remember that at first phase the Empire was not a centrally led superpower but a conglomerate of septs all joined by common ideology.

- The Tau have some really impressive technology. They can harness power of the stars and make stars go nova in ways that have been previously mentioned in the fluff only for Necrontyr. Thats some really impressive stuff.

- Funny fact: Tau don't seem to understand the difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar at all. This shows in fluff passages where "War is declared against cruel riders victimizing the new colonies of Ke'lshan. Believing they have tracked their foes down, the Tau instead destroy the Eldar maidenworld of Lilarsus." Also "horrific tortures in the hands of cruel Eldar overseers" kind of points to that.

- The description on the page 30 about how a Tau invasion on a world would progress is a mix of old fluff with some nasty new twists. If you read only what happens and when the Tau takeover of an alien world wouldn't be very bad at all... Untill you read the actual text: "Whether willingly, under the intimidating threat of a pulse rifle, or after a series of crushing defeats in bloody battles, many populations now find themselves as part of the growing Tau Empire." "Important alien dignitaries are whisked off for private conferences - often returning with comforting plans of how the situation will progress, although sometimes never returning at all." "One constant is that Tau are always treated as first amongst equals." These are just snippets, but the p 30 is, IMHO, finely written emphasizing both the fact that Tau rule is, after all, far pleasurable for great masses than Imperial rule is in most places and yet still it is a ruthless system that crushes resistance, a steel gauntlet under thin veil of silk.

- As of Farsight I'm still to make up my mind, but really the fluff opens three possibilities:
1) Farsight has had a private meeting with Khorne (he now likes close-combat, his color is blood red, he has seen Eye of Terror etc.)
2) Farsight has had a private meeting with Necrons (he was the sole survivor of an attack by what sounds suspiciously lot like Necrons on a planet which sounds suspiciously lot like Tomb World, the Dawn Blade looks exactly like the balde of a Necron Warscythe and even has the same statline: AP2 with no Initiative penalty and Armoursbane etc.)
3) Both of the above
How these meetings have changed Farsight, what is his real agenda and who, if anyone, he serves now is open to speculation as fluff just doesn't tell.

Iron_Lord
07-04-2013, 07:49
I don't see how it means it's a chaos artefact, could someone explain?

You can't really see the Eye of Terror, or even the Maelstrom, well, from the Tau Empire.

Hence the theory that the blade is giving Farsight visions of a warp storm - probably the Eye- hence it being chaos.

Lichdom
07-04-2013, 08:00
I don't see how it means it's a chaos artefact, could someone explain?
If I got this right, http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?369031-New-Tau&p=6712066&viewfull=1#post6712066

Again, things change, though at least in the beginning it seems to have been such.

The new Farsight fluff was not to bad, nothing to new, just adding a little here and there, though to hear it said that the Enclaves are large, with big populations, as well as moons dedicated to production, helps to confirm that Farsight did NOT kill off the other caste members, and is running a mini Tau Empire of his own. Thus his custom XV-8 Crisis Suit. Also, the story of how some Tau Empire Fire Warriors still, even all these years later, carry a image or something of the such of Farsight is just great, so long as the wrong people don't see it. Else they get carted away. Honestly, it reminds me of the Khristians of Japan, who would have a Cross, or Marry behind a buddha or etc. "I am a very faithful member to the Tau'va, see this picture of Shadowsun?...:sees the Shas'O is gone and flips the card over:"

Just re-read it, and I think I miss-read it, as an actual image, and not as a outspoken belief. Sorry folks.

TheDungen
07-04-2013, 08:43
Shas'O Kais gets mentioned in the timeline.

Nice to see GW acknowledging THQ's character creation, apparently he was also a Protégé of Commander Puretide.


Most interesting piece of information for me was the mention of 'Sha'Galudd' the name of a planet of mind controlling worms called the Nagi. Firstly I enjoyed the Stargate reference in the planet name and secondly these mind controlling worms now work closely with Tau Ethereals as advisers. Could they be controlling the Tau empire? OR aiding the Ethereals with their dominion over lesser races/ subjects.

He was always a student to puretide. I think it's even mentioned in DoW.

Haha lovely stargate reference.

Iron_Lord
07-04-2013, 08:49
The new Farsight fluff was not to bad, nothing to new, just adding a little here and there, though to hear it said that the Enclaves are large, with big populations, as well as moons dedicated to production, helps to confirm that Farsight did NOT kill off the other caste members, and is running a mini Tau Empire of his own. Thus his custom XV-8 Crisis Suit.

I thought his suit was a prototype for the Enforcer suit (since he can twist at the waist)- looking different because it was designed 300 years ago.

Lichdom
07-04-2013, 08:56
White Dwarf 400, page 85, "Farsight is a breakaway leader, so he is unlikely to have quite the same level of technology at his disposal as other Tau Commanders. Because of that, I modeled him to look like he's wearing a classic model of Crisis armor that has been customized by his own artisans and engineers."
Unsure what the new Codex says on it, as I have not read through it all as of yet.

Nubl0
07-04-2013, 08:58
I was hoping for farsight to lay the smackdown on that upstart puppet shadowsun, seeing as she blasted his statue and all.

TheDungen
07-04-2013, 09:02
also the daemons he mentions may have been trying to stop him from taking the dawnblade, and there are many other forces at work in the galaxy than chaos and necrons. the eldar perhaps, or maybe the old ones left something there. Or Malice.

Dawnblade does not sound like a name any self respecting daemonsword would take.

eldargal
07-04-2013, 09:09
- The description on the page 30 about how a Tau invasion on a world would progress is a mix of old fluff with some nasty new twists. If you read only what happens and when the Tau takeover of an alien world wouldn't be very bad at all... Untill you read the actual text: "Whether willingly, under the intimidating threat of a pulse rifle, or after a series of crushing defeats in bloody battles, many populations now find themselves as part of the growing Tau Empire." "Important alien dignitaries are whisked off for private conferences - often returning with comforting plans of how the situation will progress, although sometimes never returning at all." "One constant is that Tau are always treated as first amongst equals." These are just snippets, but the p 30 is, IMHO, finely written emphasizing both the fact that Tau rule is, after all, far pleasurable for great masses than Imperial rule is in most places and yet still it is a ruthless system that crushes resistance, a steel gauntlet under thin veil of silk.

Yay for shades of grey (the good kind).

still-young
07-04-2013, 09:19
also the daemons he mentions may have been trying to stop him from taking the dawnblade, and there are many other forces at work in the galaxy than chaos and necrons. the eldar perhaps, or maybe the old ones left something there. Or Malice.

Dawnblade does not sound like a name any self respecting daemonsword would take.

Unless Farsight named it dawnblade :P

Polaria
07-04-2013, 09:29
White Dwarf 400, page 85, "Farsight is a breakaway leader, so he is unlikely to have quite the same level of technology at his disposal as other Tau Commanders. Because of that, I modeled him to look like he's wearing a classic model of Crisis armor that has been customized by his own artisans and engineers."
Unsure what the new Codex says on it, as I have not read through it all as of yet.

It says this:

"Like any other distant colony, much of the equipment and armour used by those within the Farsight Enclaves is slightly dated [...] There has been, however, unsettling evidence of classified technology and recent prototypes present within the Enclaves. Time will tell whether this is the result of spycraft, theft or traitors to the Greater Good who have been aiding those within Farsight's domain." (p. 57)

Lichdom
07-04-2013, 09:35
I was hoping for farsight to lay the smackdown on that upstart puppet shadowsun, seeing as she blasted his statue and all.
Well, now when she destroys the statue, there is no one crying foul, and now there is "whispers" that she has a secret mission to bring Farsight to justice.
Where before there were outcry at his statue's destruction, and no mention of her, maybe, going for him, nor the "Confrontation seems inevitable" part about the two coming to blows.
Though to be fair, you can easily meld the two together, and not have any conflict, and it just improves the story telling. Which is all I guess we can ask for, as I doubt GW will ever allow the two to come to blows, at least not without both coming out alive, and fluff wise, if the two ever met, I doubt both would come out alive. Two men enter, only one man leaves.:evilgrin:

Iron_Lord
07-04-2013, 09:45
It says this:

"Like any other distant colony, much of the equipment and armour used by those within the Farsight Enclaves is slightly dated [...] There has been, however, unsettling evidence of classified technology and recent prototypes present within the Enclaves. Time will tell whether this is the result of spycraft, theft or traitors to the Greater Good who have been aiding those within Farsight's domain." (p. 57)
Farsight's suit being both "dated" and customised, seems reasonable.

Liber
07-04-2013, 10:16
- Tau are described as far more ruthless than in previous fluff. Gone are the days of "nice Tau". They are out to carve and Empire and the method is to kick ass and annihilate cultures. Yes, they still send Water caste to offer a sweet deal first and if it seems to work, they'll take their time, but if the alien world does not surrender will be bombed to stone-age and beyond. There is also several mentions of Tau destroying whole planets and conducting genocide on races that don't surrender. They are still described to be somewhat nicer than Imperium, but just barely..

YAAAY

More GRIMDARK for the GRIMDARK.


How disappointing.

Lichdom
07-04-2013, 10:29
"Time will tell whether this is the result of spycraft, theft or traitors to the Greater Good who have been aiding those within Farsight's domain"
I like that part, as when you add in, "Special councils, composed of Ethereals and auxiliary guards, are dispatched to question any who are rumored to have contacts or sympathies with the Farsight Enclaves." and, "On the rare occasions when warriors bearing the distinctive red armour and markings from the Enclaves are seen within the Tau Empire, the Ethereal High Council have issued high mobilization, although there have yet to be any confrontations." it seems to heavily imply a Civil War may be coming to the Empire. Should I be reading that right, and auxiliary does indeed mean non Tau, it seems they don't want any conversions to take place when the "guilty party" begins to preach the good message of Farsight to his unenlightened kin.:angel:

Kakapo42
07-04-2013, 10:36
Tau are described as far more ruthless than in previous fluff. Gone are the days of "nice Tau". They are out to carve and Empire and the method is to kick ass and annihilate cultures. Yes, they still send Water caste to offer a sweet deal first and if it seems to work, they'll take their time, but if the alien world does not surrender will be bombed to stone-age and beyond. There is also several mentions of Tau destroying whole planets and conducting genocide on races that don't surrender. They are still described to be somewhat nicer than Imperium, but just barely.

Sigh, I was so very much hoping they wouldn't go down this route. Oh well, looks like I'll be sticking with Battlfleet Gothic and Warhammer (fantasy) for a while longer...

LordLucan
07-04-2013, 11:07
I'm loving this new lore. The Tau retain their flavour as a nicer* race, while gaining much more of an edge. They seem slightly less ignorant of the way the 40K galaxy works, but they are young and still make mistakes (sunbursts, punishing the wrong eldar for attacks, etc). Their drives being STL is a little odd, but then ironically, with the Necorn and Tau codexes, 40K does seem to be moving to a situation where the light speed barrier is respected; unless you have access to wormholes or can breach into the physics-raping warp, you can't go faster than light.

I suspect the Poctroon contagion was more a case of the first sphere expansionists accidentally giving them the Tau common cold or something. I don't think they'd kill the Poctroon out of hand, as that's inconsistant with how the tau treat every other race. The Poctroon gladly joined by the sounds of it, so there'd be little reason to eradicate them.

*(Yeah they don't treat their client races as equals, but the Imperium exterminates alien races out of hand unless they are useful, in which case they are enslaved.)

warlordbob
07-04-2013, 11:21
I prefer the newer grimdark fluff, it helps the Tau fit in better, and yet they are still far more welcoming to other species than any other race in the game. I just want the codex in hand so I can see it all in person, seems I wasted 5 quid on express shipping to still only get my order the week after release...

Polaria
07-04-2013, 11:50
I don't think they actually changed Tau into more "grimdark" here. The old 'dex simply left a lot untold and some people filled the untold holes with fluffy kittens and beautiful flowers. The new 'dex is more honest and clearly shows that Tau have both sides: They are idealistic and most of the time try to limit the collateral damage, but you can't really conquer a galactic empire without breaking a few planets.

The other thing, besides honesty, the new, more accurate fluff adds is a bunch of reasons for the Farsights actions. In old codex the only options were really that Farsight is crazy and possessed by Chaos or C'tan or alien mindbenders (not Tau). Now that the backstory is more fleshed out it is possible that Farsight is actually the good guy here and the Ethereals are the evil alien mindbenders, but that isn't clear either, so it might also be that Ethereals are just slightly naughty mindbenders and Farsight is possessed by Greater Daemon of Khorne. Or C'tan made him do it. You just can't say for sure and for fluff this is actually pretty cool.

Palvinore
07-04-2013, 12:02
The other thing, besides honesty, the new, more accurate fluff adds is a bunch of reasons for the Farsights actions. In old codex the only options were really that Farsight is crazy and possessed by Chaos or C'tan or alien mindbenders (not Tau). Now that the backstory is more fleshed out it is possible that Farsight is actually the good guy here and the Ethereals are the evil alien mindbenders, but that isn't clear either, so it might also be that Ethereals are just slightly naughty mindbenders and Farsight is possessed by Greater Daemon of Khorne. Or C'tan made him do it. You just can't say for sure and for fluff this is actually pretty cool.

Um, you do know that this was also possible under the old fluff right? From the WD article on Farsight, it pretty much laid open options for it to be Chaos, C'tan/Necron, or Farsight rebelling due to loss of Ethereal and the Ethereal's pheromones. It is just everyone seized on the blade as the reason and ignored the fact that Farsight was from the beginning described as being an embittered veteran.



The new Farsight fluff was not to bad, nothing to new, just adding a little here and there, though to hear it said that the Enclaves are large, with big populations, as well as moons dedicated to production, helps to confirm that Farsight did NOT kill off the other caste members, and is running a mini Tau Empire of his own.

It has never been said that Farsight killed off other caste members. The 1st Tau Codex had a Water Caste Tau speculate that Farsight had created a society with the Fire caste as the ruling caste.

Lord Damocles
07-04-2013, 12:02
I'm not really seeing that Farsight's background has actually changed all that much/at all here.

Chaos Farsight, Necron Farsight, misunderstood Farsight, Eldar Farsight, good guy Farsight are all options which have been around and discussed for the best part of a decade, and there doesn't seen to be any new support for any of them particularly.

The only really new development that I've seen so far is that the Farsight Enclaves generally are confirmed as having red armour, rather than it being just Farsight himself (which doesn't support any of the above particularly).

EDIT: Ninja!

Sandlemad
07-04-2013, 12:11
Yeah, really not seeing anything particularly different from the old Tau fluff re: coercion and empire. They're imperialists, this is what imperialists do, there's never been and likely never will be an empire-building society that is free of coercion (economic, military, political) with its allies/vassals.

You don't have to look at the Imperium for comparison because of course they're better than them. There's diplomacy but also disappearances, annexations, protectorates and yes, a few massacres, but less in the way of pogroms and crusades. For RL comparisons, it's a simple matter to compare them with relatively benevolent-seeming imperial efforts, like 19th century Britain and *ducks* 20th century USA.
Not trying to derail here but while it's definitely not cuddles and kittens, it's about as nice as you'll to get in the 41st millennium. They're not grimdark (no skulls, no astronomicon, no servitors, no hive cities, no inquisition, no ecclesiarchy, no spike or daemons), they're just more fleshed out.

Idaan
07-04-2013, 12:16
I don't see how it means it's a chaos artefact, could someone explain?
Arthas Moloch was subjected to Exterminatus by the Imperials because it was tainted by Chaos.

barrangas
07-04-2013, 12:29
Yeah, really not seeing anything particularly different from the old Tau fluff re: coercion and empire. They're imperialists, this is what imperialists do, there's never been and likely never will be an empire-building society that is free of coercion (economic, military, political) with its allies/vassals.

You don't have to look at the Imperium for comparison because of course they're better than them. There's diplomacy but also disappearances, annexations, protectorates and yes, a few massacres, but less in the way of pogroms and crusades. For RL comparisons, it's a simple matter to compare them with relatively benevolent-seeming imperial efforts, like 19th century Britain and *ducks* 20th century USA.
Not trying to derail here but while it's definitely not cuddles and kittens, it's about as nice as you'll to get in the 41st millennium. They're not grimdark (no skulls, no astronomicon, no servitors, no hive cities, no inquisition, no ecclesiarchy, no spike or daemons), they're just more fleshed out.

Agreed, even about the US, we want to be the new Rome. I really just took this for trying to paint the Tau more as the imperialists they are rather than some benevolent protector. Yes the Tau become aggressive when they don't think things are going their way, but when they are they are willing to wait for relations to bear fruit and give the populations good deals too. They like bloodless take overs and reward such populations when it happens.

Polaria
07-04-2013, 14:04
Arthas Moloch was subjected to Exterminatus by the Imperials because it was tainted by Chaos.

Where is this from? Just asking because the Tau Codex implicates Arthas Moloch was declared cleansed of enemy and would thus be part of the Farsight Enclaves.

TheDungen
07-04-2013, 14:14
Unless Farsight named it dawnblade :P

Doesn't sound like a name a chaos worshipper would name his weapon either.



I could dig tau as the science faction of 40k, maybe not as clear cut good guys but as fighting for a greater cause. But only if GW actually makes the science they use science. Which means bringing someone who has a clue about science on the team. I could see the tau citing newtons first law (of course they wouldn't call it that) or saying 'magic' is impossible due to the conservation of energy, trying to explain it away as really advanced science and stuff like that. but if they are to be the tech faction they have to be able to do science too.
The species-ism thing may not have to be so pronounced as some people seem to indicate though, the imperium already does that trope to death.
I love the not so absent looking tau faces on the new models too.

Lord Damocles
07-04-2013, 14:28
Where is this from? Just asking because the Tau Codex implicates Arthas Moloch was declared cleansed of enemy and would thus be part of the Farsight Enclaves.
'Heroes & Villains of the 41st Millenium: O'Shova, Commander Farsight' in White Dwarf 289 (UK), pg.66.


(Which also adds half a dozen other conspiracy theories into the mix - I vote Vampires did it!)

The bearded one
07-04-2013, 15:16
I did notice that the damocles gulf has been slightly worded differently. The way it is written the imperial forces didn't decide to stop attacking the tau they were "allowed" to leave.

They were 'allowed' to leave in the previous codex too. The water caste purposefully opened up a dialogue at the point the crusade came to a halt at Dal'yth.


:p

Do bear in mind that anyone with the knowledge required to write the sort of background you are wanting is unlikely to either be working for GW or (if they somehow managed to get hired) unlikely to last long enough to make it to a position where they could influence the background in such a fundamental way. Most of GW's core background was written by a bunch of stoned 20/30-somethings in the mid seventies to mid-eighties. Little (if any) has been written by anyone with engineering or astrophysics degrees.

GW's background is far more sensible if one accepts that GW specialises in handwavium for kids, not makesenseium for adults. The background is just there to create a backdrop for selling toys, not as an internally coherent and consistent universe.

I think you're not giving it enough credit, in particular the early creators. The background is quite well constructed and complex, and pretty sensible/interesting/informative/sophisticated to a certain degree. In fact amongst the early group of creators they had several (half a dozen or so) with university degrees, at a time when only a tenth of the country had that.

Shas'O Mont'yr Kais
07-04-2013, 16:09
This has granted excellent insight as to what I should expect on Wednesday, when I get my copy of the codex. until I get it, don't know where I'm going with this lot. Only query is to a definite purpose to the riptide. WD give a couple of possibilities, but nothing definite, from what I can tell.

The bearded one
07-04-2013, 18:26
Only query is to a definite purpose to the riptide. WD give a couple of possibilities, but nothing definite, from what I can tell.

Rules-wise or fluff-wise?

Fluffwise development on a heavier, larger class of battlesuit was sparked by facing the largest enemy warmachines (and the firepower those could produce), such as the ork stompas and gargants, and the imperiums titans and superheavy tanks. For a race used to holding technological superiority, the sheer power of their enemies' largest warmachines was eye-opening. While the Tau way of war stresses mobility and hit and run tactics to overcome larger numbers and giant warmachines, having larger warmachines themselves would allow them to better overcome such firepower.

MajorWesJanson
07-04-2013, 19:40
The fire warriors had been asking for a larger/more powerful suit for a while as well, but it wasn't until running into things like stompas that it was made a priority, and only recently have they managed to scale down the nova reactor (designed for starships initially) to fit on a suit.

Broadside fluff is pretty funny as well, referencing the heavy redesign- they built the prototypes on the XV-8 chassis, but then started having to add power and bracing, which removed the jet pack and made it less mobile. So they added armor to make it more durable, which required more bracing and made it slower again, until they ended up with the suit we have now. The change from shoulder mount to rifle mount for the railrifle is mentioned as the result of earth caste tinkering.

The bearded one
07-04-2013, 19:54
I found the mention of that last change funny in particular. Fluff following model design in edition change and referencing earlier models.

Also the battlesuit entry mentions the 'sunforge' layout. On the internet code-names have developed for particular battlesuit weapon layouts, such as 'deathrain' for lots of missilepods. Sunforge is one of those names too. Im not entirely certain of the genesis of these names though, some might have originally been invented by GW in an old WD or the first tau codex or something.

Sandlemad
07-04-2013, 20:14
This has granted excellent insight as to what I should expect on Wednesday, when I get my copy of the codex. until I get it, don't know where I'm going with this lot. Only query is to a definite purpose to the riptide. WD give a couple of possibilities, but nothing definite, from what I can tell.

The talk of the Riptide pilot being a 'sword-saint' says to me that he/she work rather like a propaganda hero for the tau military. Sure, a team of crisis suits could probably do what a Riptide does but the emotional impact is a lot greater when there's one ridiculously powerful individual coming to save a team of Fire Warriors or kill a tyranid beast or shore up this part of the line.
'Here comes Shas'vre so-and-so, hero of the previous battle, arriving to save the day!' They can be heroes to the empire in a way that more politically-engaged soldiers like their commanders cannot; they're champions rather than officers. And if they use their nova generator, then they've heroically martyred themselves for the greater good.

Also the Riptide battlesuit isself is a potent symbol of tau technological dominance. The tau make much of their superior tech to define themselves and their superiority over the foe, so the Riptide is going to have the same effect as a chapter standard would have on space marines or a greater daemon to chaos worshippers.
I can't find it now but the Black Library put up an extract of this short story about a Riptide pilot somewhere, and there was a lot of language about how inspiring it was and how it looked like a physical manifestation of the tau'va. That sort of thing.

avien
07-04-2013, 20:38
:p

Do bear in mind that anyone with the knowledge required to write the sort of background you are wanting is unlikely to either be working for GW or (if they somehow managed to get hired) unlikely to last long enough to make it to a position where they could influence the background in such a fundamental way. Most of GW's core background was written by a bunch of stoned 20/30-somethings in the mid seventies to mid-eighties. Little (if any) has been written by anyone with engineering or astrophysics degrees.

GW's background is far more sensible if one accepts that GW specialises in handwavium for kids, not makesenseium for adults. The background is just there to create a backdrop for selling toys, not as an internally coherent and consistent universe.

Haha, love the summary of my first post - "demands for science-y stuff"

While I accept that the background is getting less sophisticated than it used to be, I don't think the required educational standard is particularly high to understand the limitations of sub light travel and the inherent difficulties for communications, trade & travel. I am no scientist, but even I can work out that a system under attack is not going to be able to rely on reinforcements coming from another system travelling at sub light speeds, it's impractical. Particularly for Empire building.


Hmm, don't know if 40k was really meant for kids. I mean it has always been rather dark and twisted. The old Confrontation game really didn't seem to have been created for your average 12-13 year olds. Whilst it didn't have the flashy action figure like models we have now, it did have some very twisted and detailed background, which has kinda gona missing in this last edition. :(

I think the original game and setting were definitely aimed at the more mature gamer, but there is no denying that GW have shifted their attention to the younger gamers, makes sense that some of that will seep into their background...


I don't know, I learned about the whole relativistic speed thing when I was in middle school. Because school was more about crushing your dreams they didn't focus on how awesome science is, so they didn't bother going into theories on how we might be able to travel interstellar distances. Also I'd love for the Tau to go "Screw you Warp, we have Fing Wormholes".

Yeah wormhole tech was always a favourite alternative of mine too. I could imagine giant stargates being constructed which would still provide some sort of limitation, they have limited wormhole drives on their ships which allows free travel but this would be a slower speed that travelling between two gateways.


Some more mixed remarks as I've progressed in my reading...

- The undefined FTL technology is, IMO, just fine. The Ethereals have total control over the society and the septs are very, very independent in terms of resources and military so "slower than light empire" plausible in the first phase when it was only a handfull of systems anyway. All you really need is to remember that at first phase the Empire was not a centrally led superpower but a conglomerate of septs all joined by common ideology.


I agree in part. The first sphere is fine. Bring it forward to the Third sphere and it's a joke. Fending off orks, tracing a DE fleet and invading an eldar maiden world...

For one thing the new FTL thing makes a narrative BFG campaign way more difficult since you need to factor in a couple year journey between systems...

I think I'll be treating the tau FTL change the same as the necron one and just ignore and continue to go by the old stuff... Since it makes way more sense in both cases.

barrangas
07-04-2013, 20:59
Fluffwise development on a heavier, larger class of battlesuit was sparked by facing the largest enemy warmachines (and the firepower those could produce), such as the ork stompas and gargants, and the imperiums titans and superheavy tanks. For a race used to holding technological superiority, the sheer power of their enemies' largest warmachines was eye-opening. While the Tau way of war stresses mobility and hit and run tactics to overcome larger numbers and giant warmachines, having larger warmachines themselves would allow them to better overcome such firepower.

I've gotta call shennangens on GW here. Tau have always had answers to Titans, beasts, and other large targets. Mantas were called Titan killers since the beginning, for one thing. They also thought Titans were horribly impractical and dealt with them with volleys of missiles and railguns from hidden positions.

On a side note with Farsight, I really hope they make the attack a mysterious party not represented by a codex. I like new things.

gitburna
07-04-2013, 21:00
I found the mention of that last change funny in particular. Fluff following model design in edition change and referencing earlier models.

Also the battlesuit entry mentions the 'sunforge' layout. On the internet code-names have developed for particular battlesuit weapon layouts, such as 'deathrain' for lots of missilepods. Sunforge is one of those names too. Im not entirely certain of the genesis of these names though, some might have originally been invented by GW in an old WD or the first tau codex or something.

Some of them were...(in old codexes and white dwarves) i think the subsequent namings follow the same conventions. there was an article describing a series of weapon configurations and what they were were called. I *think* i recall that the deathrain was used for a nightfight in an ork camp, setting fires and destroying vehicles with blacksun filters and missile pods.

Drasanil
07-04-2013, 21:15
YAAAY

More GRIMDARK sensible imperialistic behaviour from an imperialistic faction for the GRIMDARK.


How disappointing nice.

Fixed that for you:)

Lord Damocles
07-04-2013, 21:21
Do we actually know that the new horizon accelerators and impulse reactors are actually different from the (un-named) gravitic drives that the Tau used to skim the warp previously?

I've whipped through the new Codex, but couldn't see anything which actually said that the Tau don't still use a form of warp drive.

MajorWesJanson
07-04-2013, 22:40
I found the mention of that last change funny in particular. Fluff following model design in edition change and referencing earlier models.

Also the battlesuit entry mentions the 'sunforge' layout. On the internet code-names have developed for particular battlesuit weapon layouts, such as 'deathrain' for lots of missilepods. Sunforge is one of those names too. Im not entirely certain of the genesis of these names though, some might have originally been invented by GW in an old WD or the first tau codex or something.

Per WD 263:
Death Rain - Twin linked missile pods, drone controller, 2 gun drones.
Sun Forge - Twin Linked Fusion Blasters, Shield Generator
Burning Eye - Twin linked plasma rifle, target lock.
Fireknife- plasma, missile pod, multitracker
Soul Cleanse - Flamer, Fusion Blaster, shield generator
Blinding Spear - Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon, Multitracker
There are also Brightwind and Darkfall configuration involve three suit teams with different weapon systems each.

Other names have shown up in battle reports and later WD articles.

magicallypuzzled
07-04-2013, 23:07
and my love of the tau just died. they just aren't the tau I fell in love with any more you can argue if they ever were but that's the point it was arguable and now it isn't.

Zond
07-04-2013, 23:55
Most interesting piece of information for me was the mention of 'Sha'Galudd' the name of a planet of mind controlling worms called the Nagi. Firstly I enjoyed the Stargate reference in the planet name

Think it's referencing Dune more. Shai-Hulud, the sandworms.

MajorWesJanson
08-04-2013, 02:34
I've gotta call shennangens on GW here. Tau have always had answers to Titans, beasts, and other large targets. Mantas were called Titan killers since the beginning, for one thing. They also thought Titans were horribly impractical and dealt with them with volleys of missiles and railguns from hidden positions.

On a side note with Farsight, I really hope they make the attack a mysterious party not represented by a codex. I like new things.

Big slow lumbering titans are impractical to the Tau, but once they figured out how to fit a reactor into one, a scaled up battlesuit became viable. And the Riptide is not meant to go Titan-hunting, that is still the role of air power and long range missiles. The Riptide is a result of the Tau seeing how useful a larger suit with heavier armor and more firepower is against most targets. And sometimes Hit and Run is not viable, where the only answer is firepower, like the introductory battle for them, where they led a siege assault on a hive city/world.


Think it's referencing Dune more. Shai-Hulud, the sandworms.

The Nagi are a reference to the Goa'uld

TheDungen
08-04-2013, 05:37
Think it's referencing Dune more. Shai-Hulud, the sandworms.

And those controll minds? ever considered that it may be a reference to two things? the sha part is propably after the sand worms while the galudd is goa'uld. who are mind controlling snakes.

Zond
08-04-2013, 09:35
Not much a reference. You may as well say the Nagi are Yeerks or Ceti Eels as well, making them a reference to multiple franchises.

librerian_samae
08-04-2013, 12:16
Here's a bit, been painting up and repainting stuff for my tau and I have mine as coming from Dal'yth so I thought I would check up on their sept colours to put the proper coloured sept stripes on.

The only information I could online find was from ATT and it said the colour was purple, now the new codex has in the background section boxes on all the epts along with the symbols which are outlined by their colour and dots equal to their expansion they were founded in.
Here it shows that Dal'yth has a dark green similar to kabalite green.

Now others who have an intrest/ deeper knowledge may want to check the other colours to see if there are any more differences.

Perfect Organism
08-04-2013, 14:31
- The Tau have some really impressive technology. They can harness power of the stars and make stars go nova in ways that have been previously mentioned in the fluff only for Necrontyr. Thats some really impressive stuff.
Well, apparently the Eldar can (or at least could at some point in the past) mess with stars in a way which seems comparable to what the Necrontyr could do and (from reading Lexicanum, as I don't have the book yet) there doesn't seem to be anything to say that the Tau could just go around blowing up stars as they like; they might have been trying to draw power from stars which were already on the verge of supernova or something. Still, it's a pretty big deal. I don't recall the Imperium or the Orks being able to cause that kind of effect.


- Funny fact: Tau don't seem to understand the difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar at all. This shows in fluff passages where "War is declared against cruel riders victimizing the new colonies of Ke'lshan. Believing they have tracked their foes down, the Tau instead destroy the Eldar maidenworld of Lilarsus." Also "horrific tortures in the hands of cruel Eldar overseers" kind of points to that.

I think only the Eldar themselves really draw a strong distinction between Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar. Plenty of people in the Imperium seem to lump both factions together.

barrangas
08-04-2013, 21:26
Big slow lumbering titans are impractical to the Tau, but once they figured out how to fit a reactor into one, a scaled up battlesuit became viable. And the Riptide is not meant to go Titan-hunting, that is still the role of air power and long range missiles. The Riptide is a result of the Tau seeing how useful a larger suit with heavier armor and more firepower is against most targets. And sometimes Hit and Run is not viable, where the only answer is firepower, like the introductory battle for them, where they led a siege assault on a hive city/world.

Again, they have Mantas which has maneuverability, heavy firepower, and an entire hunter's cadre, which was my point when you guys where talking about Riptides being developed because Tau had to start dealing with Super Heavies. I could see the Riptide as a PR thing to show the might of the greater good but if they wanted it for purely combat reasons, I'd say stick some railguns on it and call it the new broadside since the Riptide Chassis seems like it would solve the Broadside's mobility problems.

Killgore
08-04-2013, 22:39
Again, they have Mantas which has maneuverability, heavy firepower, and an entire hunter's cadre, which was my point when you guys where talking about Riptides being developed because Tau had to start dealing with Super Heavies. I could see the Riptide as a PR thing to show the might of the greater good but if they wanted it for purely combat reasons, I'd say stick some railguns on it and call it the new broadside since the Riptide Chassis seems like it would solve the Broadside's mobility problems.


Comes to a matter of logistics, you can't redeploy your Hunter Cadre if all your Mantas are out Titan hunting, and nothing can come out of a Titan fight without sustaining some form of damage.

The reference to Mantas engaging Titans in the older codex was in the context of Tau encountering these warmachines for the first time and had to make do with the weaponry available at the time. Mantas seem to be a sub-optimal choice!

Goatboy
08-04-2013, 22:44
I think I'll be treating the tau FTL change the same as the necron one and just ignore and continue to go by the old stuff... Since it makes way more sense in both cases.

Same here but with the addition of the "new" Tyranid FTL method as well.

barrangas
08-04-2013, 22:58
Comes to a matter of logistics, you can't redeploy your Hunter Cadre if all your Mantas are out Titan hunting, and nothing can come out of a Titan fight without sustaining some form of damage.

The reference to Mantas engaging Titans in the older codex was in the context of Tau encountering these war machines for the first time and had to make do with the weaponry available at the time. Mantas seem to be a sub-optimal choice!

That was certainly not the impression I got from the original codex. What I got was the Tau going "Wow, those are some large, slow targets... take them down." The point of the Manta is that is far more tactically flexible while retaining heavy firepower to take out a Titan or a Stompa. Tactical Flexibility is important to the Tau, see Crisis Suits, which means a Manta isn't just a Titan killer, but can re-position a cadre, or devastate defenses to create a drop zone for troops.

Lupe
09-04-2013, 03:02
Fluff-wise, riptides don't strike me to be replacements for Mantas as Titan-killers. They rather give me the impression of being the Tau Empire's solution to Baneblades/Shadowswords and the like (i.e medium gun platforms - or, at least, smaller than the Mantas - that outmaneuver their tracked counterparts nonetheless). They fill their own niche in the greater scheme of things, but it just strikes me that the Tau walker's particular niche was designed around something other than the considerably larger Imperial walkers...

starlight
09-04-2013, 03:29
Were I a Tau Commander, I would only use Riptides as Titan Hunters as a last resort, or as part of an overall ambush situation.

They are much better suited to FIBUA/MOUT operations where you wouldn't want your 'Fish vehicles to get bogged down and trapped. They are a more versatile, up-gunned 'Suit, not a walking tank. They are better suited to hunting large Imperial/Ork tanks or bodies of troops, not single Superheavies beyond the Warhound class.

avien
09-04-2013, 07:26
Comes to a matter of logistics, you can't redeploy your Hunter Cadre if all your Mantas are out Titan hunting, and nothing can come out of a Titan fight without sustaining some form of damage.

The reference to Mantas engaging Titans in the older codex was in the context of Tau encountering these warmachines for the first time and had to make do with the weaponry available at the time. Mantas seem to be a sub-optimal choice!

That's not the way I took the previous codex mention. I always took the view that Mantas were deployed to counter any Titan threat that was encountered and that to the tau, the idea of constructing a huge lumbering war machine was anathema to them.

I don't think they are a sub optimal choice at all, they fit with a tau philosophy of mobile warfare. Considering their superior manoeuvrability, it's not unfeasible that the would approach from a vector that limits counter attack, ie from directly above or behind. Titans are lumbering, slow to react, might be that they wouldn't be able to respond quick enough to make a difference to the Tau.

Besides, even if they did sustain heavy damage in each engagement, the tau are much better at repairing and replacing their war assets than the imperium!



Same here but with the addition of the "new" Tyranid FTL method as well.

Yes, I've been ignoring that change so much that I completely forgot about it. Ha!

I think particularly those of us who enjoy a narrative BFG campaign tend to be more irked by matters of fictional propulsion than most.

Stonerhino
09-04-2013, 07:29
Fluff-wise, riptides don't strike me to be replacements for Mantas as Titan-killers. They rather give me the impression of being the Tau Empire's solution to Baneblades/Shadowswords and the like (i.e medium gun platforms - or, at least, smaller than the Mantas - that outmaneuver their tracked counterparts nonetheless). They fill their own niche in the greater scheme of things, but it just strikes me that the Tau walker's particular niche was designed around something other than the considerably larger Imperial walkers...To free up the Mantas the Tau designed the Tigershark AX-1-0. Which matches the Mantas for titan killing power on a lighter frame and no tranport capabilities. The Riptides are likely designed to take on light titans and heavy vehicals, stompas, knights maybe even as large as Warhounds but doughtfull.

aim
09-04-2013, 16:51
Fluff-wise, riptides don't strike me to be replacements for Mantas as Titan-killers. They rather give me the impression of being the Tau Empire's solution to Baneblades/Shadowswords and the like (i.e medium gun platforms - or, at least, smaller than the Mantas - that outmaneuver their tracked counterparts nonetheless). They fill their own niche in the greater scheme of things, but it just strikes me that the Tau walker's particular niche was designed around something other than the considerably larger Imperial walkers...


To free up the Mantas the Tau designed the Tigershark AX-1-0. Which matches the Mantas for titan killing power on a lighter frame and no tranport capabilities. The Riptides are likely designed to take on light titans and heavy vehicals, stompas, knights maybe even as large as Warhounds but doughtfull.

It specifically states in the codex that firewarriors have been asking for a suit like the rip-tide ever since being impressed by Ork Stompas/Killa Kans etc.

The codex did seem to be far less shy about claiming that the Tau are way ahead of the imperium tech wise in some regards (in an out of universe editor type way, not an in universe claim type way), whilst also being taken aback by the tech in others (which is interesting as I know theres a lot of hand wringing goes on on the internet about the Tau being way behind the imperium tech-wise still), although the exact quotes escape me at the moment. I'll have to see if I can find them when I have time, but thats definately the 'feel' you get from the codex.

Also, am I the only one that read the codex as the Tau now have true FTL? Not silly half warp engines? This wasn't exactly outright stated, but considering its worded as them having engines which get ships to 'near light speed', then they get replaced with engines that travel at 'previously unimagined speeds', it doesn't leave much wiggle room for interpretation.... unless the Tau have a pretty skewed view of 'near'.

aim
09-04-2013, 17:19
Shas'O Kais gets mentioned in the timeline.

Nice to see GW acknowledging THQ's character creation, apparently he was also a Protégé of Commander Puretide.


Most interesting piece of information for me was the mention of 'Sha'Galudd' the name of a planet of mind controlling worms called the Nagi. Firstly I enjoyed the Stargate reference in the planet name and secondly these mind controlling worms now work closely with Tau Ethereals as advisers. Could they be controlling the Tau empire? OR aiding the Ethereals with their dominion over lesser races/ subjects.

There has always been Stargate nods in the Tau fluff, their names are broken up in the same way that the jaffa names are, and their noble warrior traitor was called O'Shovah. "Sholva" is Go'auld for 'traitor'.....

Iron_Lord
09-04-2013, 17:40
To free up the Mantas the Tau designed the Tigershark AX-1-0. Which matches the Mantas for titan killing power on a lighter frame and no tranport capabilities.

Manta has a bit more killing power, what with all those ion cannons, burst cannons, and seeker missiles.

Thus, it can burn down the shields of a Titan and put railgun shots into the exposed target.

Tigershark does not have all that extra light weaponry. But is a harder target to hit.

avien
09-04-2013, 20:08
Also, am I the only one that read the codex as the Tau now have true FTL? Not silly half warp engines? This wasn't exactly outright stated, but considering its worded as them having engines which get ships to 'near light speed', then they get replaced with engines that travel at 'previously unimagined speeds', it doesn't leave much wiggle room for interpretation.... unless the Tau have a pretty skewed view of 'near'.

the problem here is the definitions. It's too vague. "previously unimagined speeds" could be the 99% speed of light, could be 50 times the speed of light, but considering their ships still have to be equipped with stasis units for travel between star systems we can safely assume it is relatively slow, at most the speed of light.

The silly half warp that was the gravitic drive, was leagues better and faster than the sub light/FTL that they are now lumbered with, since there was never any mention of them having to go into stasis for a long journey.

Iron_Lord
09-04-2013, 20:20
While they didn't mention it, even the Imperium has travel times in years- so the Tau, with travel times of 3 to 5 times the Imperium's, have good reasons to make use of stasis- to minimize the amount of supplies they have to carry.

Even if we assume that the newest drive is the old drive described in less detail.

Lord Zarkov
09-04-2013, 21:59
While they didn't mention it, even the Imperium has travel times in years- so the Tau, with travel times of 3 to 5 times the Imperium's, have good reasons to make use of stasis- to minimize the amount of supplies they have to carry.

Even if we assume that the newest drive is the old drive described in less detail.

Not only that, but Tau have a vastly shorter lifespan than Imperials (decades less than even an unaugmented human without juvenat) - they're probably a lot less willing to 'waste' lifespan in transit than the Imperium where even human leaders can live 10 times as long and whose troops are considered expendable. Doesn't new fluff have Tau commanders being put in stasis between campaigns? This would just be an extension of that - regardless of if it is actually 'necessary'.

aim
09-04-2013, 22:53
So, there is text in the codex which straight up says that the ethereals use technology to brainwash people, so mystery over.

P61, in the blue box titled "the ethereal supreme", last 2 sentences of the second paragraph.

"Even without technological aids, he was able to inspire those nearby to impossible acts or bend their will to comply with his wishes. When his natural talents were boosted through artificial means, Aun'Va could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty.

I guess that pretty much concludes the discussions about that

barrangas
09-04-2013, 23:08
It specifically states in the codex that firewarriors have been asking for a suit like the rip-tide ever since being impressed by Ork Stompas/Killa Kans etc.

The problem here is that they justified the existence of this new unit by contradicting previous fluff that has been established by other codices since third edition. The Tau were never impressed by these large war machines and have been dealing with them since their first major conflict with the Imperium, although it was probably a lot earlier with Orks


Also, am I the only one that read the codex as the Tau now have true FTL? Not silly half warp engines? This wasn't exactly outright stated, but considering its worded as them having engines which get ships to 'near light speed', then they get replaced with engines that travel at 'previously unimagined speeds', it doesn't leave much wiggle room for interpretation.... unless the Tau have a pretty skewed view of 'near'.

The Gravetic would have to be faster than than light if they can even be compared to the Imperium, Otherwise it could take a century just to reach the nearest solar system relying on sub-light engines. It would take us about 5 years just to reach Proxima Centauri if we could get as close to the speed of light as possible.

aim
09-04-2013, 23:21
Sigh. Retcons happen, this is the fluff now, deal with it. Also by "true ftl" I mean, a drive that is straight up faster than light, not "crazy warp whatsit" drive.

Iron_Lord
09-04-2013, 23:25
Also by "true ftl" I mean, a drive that is straight up faster than light, not "crazy warp whatsit" drive.
Runs into the whole relativity thing.

Necrons (originally) solved it via "inertialess" drive- effectively nullifying their own mass. Which may possibly remove the normal speed limit from play.

Maybe now that's the Tau's thing, rather than that of the Necrons?

The bearded one
09-04-2013, 23:32
Oh goody, "true ftl".. Even if that's twice or no, let's say ten times the speed of light, it'd be taking the tau lengths of time of 10-20+ years to travel between their septs, let alone send reinforcements across the empire from T'au to the frontier. Speed of light is already hard enough of a barrier to breach but even then travel between planets 'relatively close by' can take a decade.

Space is vast. The adapted gravitic drive utilising the warp was more sensible.

aim
09-04-2013, 23:35
I'm not too bothered about fictional equations on how they did it to be perfectly honest. I just found it interesting that the Tau have now been given the kudos of having real space FTL that doesn't theoretically freeze the user in time or stop them from seeing what's ahead until they've already passed through it, or any of the other bizarre weirdness we think might happen with FTL if we get close to it one day (since that was previously a "necrons are science gods" thing).

I honestly didn't realise so many people would have their knickers in a twist over it.

bittick
10-04-2013, 00:03
That's all in your interpretation. They don't call it "true" FTL in the book. They say the Tau don't have Warp engines. And they don't. It doesn't mean they can't skim the surface of the Warp like has been previously described. It just doesn't function in the same manner as the big Imperial drives.

Drasanil
10-04-2013, 01:07
"Even without technological aids, he was able to inspire those nearby to impossible acts or bend their will to comply with his wishes. When his natural talents were boosted through artificial means, Aun'Va could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty.

It could also mean they use tech to help boost their natural brainwashing abilities when you take into consideration the 'natural talents' bit. Remember the first Ethereals showed up when technology meant blackpowder as far as the Tau were concerned.

Lothlanathorian
10-04-2013, 02:56
Either way, it makes it blatant that the Ethereals use a form of brainwashing/mind control on the other Tau. Whether this is 'natural' or not doesn't change that it is mind-controlling brainwashery.

TheDungen
10-04-2013, 05:30
maybee they don't know they're skimming the surface of the warp, they found some way to move fast by shifting slightly out of phase with the universe and never considered for a second what they had discovered where what humans called the warp. (since its not really occam's razor to assume that the higher dimension that they sue for travel is a hell filled with daemons)

horizon
10-04-2013, 05:52
Not mentioning the gravitic dive is weird. It was a really unique and explained aspect to Tau Space travel.

What does ZFR stand for in ZFR Horizon Accelerator Engine?
That name... har har...

Killgore
10-04-2013, 08:37
Not having near warp travel is more in keeping with the way Tau go about things.

It removes any margin of error when calculating logistics. I don't care that people say oh they were only skimming the warp, well anything that deals even slightly with that realm opens you up to uncertainty.

There is no point getting in a twist about Tau travel mechanics in a universe that involves giant creatures locking onto planets and pulling themselves towards it. All people need to know is that the Tau fleet is capable of reaching other planets and is a regional threat to the Imperium and they keep improving!

avien
10-04-2013, 09:01
While they didn't mention it, even the Imperium has travel times in years- so the Tau, with travel times of 3 to 5 times the Imperium's, have good reasons to make use of stasis- to minimize the amount of supplies they have to carry.

Even if we assume that the newest drive is the old drive described in less detail.

The difference being that imperial ships travel across the galaxy in that time whereas the tau are only going a few light years. Though I will agree that minimising the use if supplies is certainly a good reason to use stasis for long trips.

It could have existed alongside the gravitic warp drive without difficulty.

Kakapo42
10-04-2013, 10:52
So, there is text in the codex which straight up says that the ethereals use technology to brainwash people, so mystery over.

P61, in the blue box titled "the ethereal supreme", last 2 sentences of the second paragraph.

"Even without technological aids, he was able to inspire those nearby to impossible acts or bend their will to comply with his wishes. When his natural talents were boosted through artificial means, Aun'Va could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty.

I guess that pretty much concludes the discussions about that

I didn't see this when I quickly skimmed through the codex earlier today, but if it is there, then I'm not sure I want to live on this planet anymore...

Palvinore
10-04-2013, 11:08
Found this elsewhere:



In the Codex, the Tau phrase Lha s'rhen'na is given the meaning of a worthy or noble sacrifice and is given literally as "shattered jade".

This is actually a direct copy of a real life Chinese phrase (and hence Japanese since Japan borrowed it from China):

大丈夫寧可玉砕何能瓦全
Translated literally as "A man would rather be a shattered jade than be a complete roof tile" but the meaning of this is that it is better to die a noble death than to live in a state of dishonor.

Citation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banzai_charge

librerian_samae
10-04-2013, 11:18
Right looked over the mini Tau empire star map, in the back ground it states that first sphere expansion septs were relatively close to Tau sept before the empire widened during the 2nd and 3rd sphere expansions.

Now actually look at the map...

...yes that's right most of the 1st sphere septs are actually the furthest away septs from Tau distance wise...

...[facepalm]

Drasanil
10-04-2013, 12:25
Just had a proper read through of the codex and while most of it was pretty decent, I can't help but picture Tau as North Korea in space now. Especially after reading Aun'Va's fluff and how the Ethereals are so great because they just ask people to do things better. And it works because they are so 'awesome'. I have this image stuck in my head of some short chubby Ethereal doing his best to look meaningfully out at nothing in particular and being 'inspirational' for the cameras Kim Jong Un style.

Horus38
10-04-2013, 12:37
Been able to read most of the book - overall loved the clean presentation. Though I was sad to see so little fluff interaction between the Eldar in the Tau: one snippet in the timeline and a the big centerfold battle picture on the inside cover. On the other hand I'd rather see no interaction then a bunch of half-baked battle references between the two.

Inquisitor Engel
10-04-2013, 14:44
...yes that's right most of the 1st sphere septs are actually the furthest away septs from Tau distance wise...


Space is 3 dimensional. It's entirely possible they're actually closer, but appear further away due to their placement on/against the axis the 2D drawing was made with.

librerian_samae
10-04-2013, 19:53
Space is 3 dimensional. It's entirely possible they're actually closer, but appear further away due to their placement on/against the axis the 2D drawing was made with.

Stoopid me, yes that is entirely plausible, face palm for me this time :)

DoomedDiceThrower
10-04-2013, 23:28
<-- bit of a fluff addict.

Is the Iron Hammer campaign (believe that's the name) foreshadowed in the last Tyranid codex included/expanded upon?

<-- fluff enthusiast

could you quickly go over what that campaign is? There's nothing on that in the new Tau Codex.


Just had a proper read through of the codex and while most of it was pretty decent, I can't help but picture Tau as North Korea in space now. Especially after reading Aun'Va's fluff and how the Ethereals are so great because they just ask people to do things better. And it works because they are so 'awesome'. I have this image stuck in my head of some short chubby Ethereal doing his best to look meaningfully out at nothing in particular and being 'inspirational' for the cameras Kim Jong Un style.

I would rather go with the Star Wars Republic, and a more manipulative, militaristic/imperialistic Jedi Council.


I think the Codex presents the fluff in a way that let's you interpret Tau in subtly different ways. For people worrying about Tau becoming too grimdark, there's enough lines and notes in the codex to help you convince yourself of the opposite if you just put enough weight on them. There's a very subtle well-written balance of varying Tau characteristics. Oppositionists sometimes disappearing, Farsight sympathisers questioned and also disappearing, and so on, but on the other hand you got Tau offering civil terms of surrender even late into a bloody campaign, and the first stages of Tau occupation being described as "shockingly civil", with cultural habits tolerated and studied as long as they don't have a negative impact on effectiveness. In my opinion the codex gives everyone enough fluff-meat for his own interpretation, be it that you lean more towards the aggressive suppressor appraoch, or towards the bringers of hope theme.


On a different note, a definite fluff-highlight in the entire codex for me was: Commander Puretide! The holographic AI projection, that only the most gifted Firecaste students may gain access to, in a holo-projection of "mount kan'ji" where they will discuss the art of war directly with the brilliant old master! Sun-Tzu meets Neuromancer, I love this!!

Horus38
11-04-2013, 02:18
<-- fluff enthusiast

could you quickly go over what that campaign is? There's nothing on that in the new Tau Codex.

P. 19 of the current Nid codex in regards to hive fleet Gorgons defeat in Tau space with Imperial help: "Castellan Crask wasted no time in declaring the Tau to be weaklings for their apparent inability to scour such a minor Tyranid threat. This viewpoint, and the willfully misinterpreted conclusions that fed it, was the chief precipitating factor in the commencement of the Iron Hammer campaign, which soon escalated into the greatest confrontation yet seen between the Imperium of Man and the Tau Empire. But that is another story..."

carlisimo
11-04-2013, 04:41
still nothing to explain their battle brother status with space marines. I was really hoping to see farsight expanded upon as he is the most interested part of their fluff. But nothing there either.

That's really disappointing... I thought it'd be the big fluff change of 6th edition.

bad dice
11-04-2013, 09:49
the problem here is the definitions. It's too vague. "previously unimagined speeds" could be the 99% speed of light, could be 50 times the speed of light, but considering their ships still have to be equipped with stasis units for travel between star systems we can safely assume it is relatively slow, at most the speed of light.

The silly half warp that was the gravitic drive, was leagues better and faster than the sub light/FTL that they are now lumbered with, since there was never any mention of them having to go into stasis for a long journey.

Well not realy interstelar distances ar realy realy vast. Even at 50 times the speed of light treveling between systems would take months or years
So statis units seems to be a good idee. (as spending a year on a starship seems inciribly booring to me)

Also this gives a nice explaniation for Farsight beeing still alive. Asumeing he traveld at the older near light speed enginges to his current location. Time would have flowed slower for him then for the other TAU(acording to phisics of NLST of mass). So he could still be whitin his natural livespann but seem significtly ancient to the empire.

librerian_samae
11-04-2013, 11:22
On the space marines/tau battle brothers front towards the end of the fluff on the damocles gulf crusade when talking of the aftermath it says that the space marine captains came away with 'a new found respect for the honour of the tau during their engagements' or words to those effects.

So a bit of an explanation, at least.

Horus38
11-04-2013, 12:17
On the space marines/tau battle brothers front towards the end of the fluff on the damocles gulf crusade when talking of the aftermath it says that the space marine captains came away with 'a new found respect for the honour of the tau during their engagements' or words to those effects.

So a bit of an explanation, at least.

Prior to initiating the Zeist campaign the Space Marine codex talks of how Calger was reluctant to fight the Tau due to that same feeling of respect for an honorable foe. These snippets are all that's really needed to explain a battle brother status and there really doesn't need to be any vast shift in the fluff for this tone.

Rogue Star
11-04-2013, 12:37
P. 19 of the current Nid codex in regards to hive fleet Gorgons defeat in Tau space with Imperial help: "Castellan Crask wasted no time in declaring the Tau to be weaklings for their apparent inability to scour such a minor Tyranid threat. This viewpoint, and the willfully misinterpreted conclusions that fed it, was the chief precipitating factor in the commencement of the Iron Hammer campaign, which soon escalated into the greatest confrontation yet seen between the Imperium of Man and the Tau Empire. But that is another story..."

Looks sadly to be forgotten. Hive Fleet Gorgon's attack on the Sept of Ke'lshan is mentioned, and how it was defeated by a combined Tau and Imperial force, but it never goes further than when the Imperials are allowed to leave after the Tau.

totgeboren
11-04-2013, 13:51
Space is 3 dimensional. It's entirely possible they're actually closer, but appear further away due to their placement on/against the axis the 2D drawing was made with.

Eh, I think you need to re-evaluate this statement. From the Pythagorean theorem we can see that the removal of one dimension from a 2D position means the new distance in 1D must be equal or smaller. (For reasons I will not go into the same goes for a jump from 3D to 2D.) It could only be larger by the introduction of distances in the imaginary realm, so to speak.
Really, just draw a triangle with one 90 degree corner and imagine you are seeing it from the sides, so you only see a single line. The longest single line will be the hypotenuse (which would correspond to the distance in 3D-space), from all other orientations the distance would appear shorter, which would represent whatever way the map is made.

Idaan
11-04-2013, 17:32
Eh, I think you need to re-evaluate this statement. From the Pythagorean theorem we can see that the removal of one dimension from a 2D position means the new distance in 1D must be equal or smaller. (For reasons I will not go into the same goes for a jump from 3D to 2D.) It could only be larger by the introduction of distances in the imaginary realm, so to speak.
Really, just draw a triangle with one 90 degree corner and imagine you are seeing it from the sides, so you only see a single line. The longest single line will be the hypotenuse (which would correspond to the distance in 3D-space), from all other orientations the distance would appear shorter, which would represent whatever way the map is made.
That's completely in line with what he said. It could have been the distance to the 2nd and 3rd sphere colonies that was shrunk on that map, not the distance to 1st sphere that was stretched. 1st phase could have occured in the same plane that T'au occupies, and only 2nd and 3rd phases expanded in the 3rd dimension. Actually, it makes more sense that way, because 1st phase ships with relatively primitive engines would have used slingshot effect to increase speed, thus being limited to the plane formed by the planets in T'au system.

Inquisitor Engel
11-04-2013, 17:50
That's completely in line with what he said. It could have been the distance to the 2nd and 3rd sphere colonies that was shrunk on that map, not the distance to 1st sphere that was stretched. 1st phase could have occured in the same plane that T'au occupies, and only 2nd and 3rd phases expanded in the 3rd dimension. Actually, it makes more sense that way, because 1st phase ships with relatively primitive engines would have used slingshot effect to increase speed, thus being limited to the plane formed by the planets in T'au system.

Big points for supporting logic. :)

Lupe
12-04-2013, 00:56
Well not realy interstelar distances ar realy realy vast. Even at 50 times the speed of light treveling between systems would take months or years
So statis units seems to be a good idee. (as spending a year on a starship seems inciribly booring to me)


The Milky Way galaxy is stated to be ~110 000 light years in diameter, at least according to wiser heads than mine. Right now, the Imperium can traverse that space in about 3-5 years. That's an average of about 22 thousand light years every year with the Imperium's Warp travel. TWENTY THOUSAND times the speed of light. That means that even if the Tau Empire could achieve a tenth of that speed (at the end of M41), it'd still be comparatively slow and hindering to their ability to expand and maintain colonies. Just to put things into proportion...



- Tau are described as far more ruthless than in previous fluff. Gone are the days of "nice Tau". They are out to carve and Empire and the method is to kick ass and annihilate cultures. Yes, they still send Water caste to offer a sweet deal first and if it seems to work, they'll take their time, but if the alien world does not surrender will be bombed to stone-age and beyond. There is also several mentions of Tau destroying whole planets and conducting genocide on races that don't surrender. They are still described to be somewhat nicer than Imperium, but just barely.

Well, think about it in terms of the Cold War. The USA has had its share of skeletons in its closet, but it was still a far better place to be in than the Soviet Union. Bya considerable margin.


- The Ethereal control over Tau is described as being total. "Were an Ethereal to order a Tau to kill himself, he would be met with instant obedience."

- The source of Ethereal control is not disclosed. Three possible explanations (Psychics, Technology, Pheromones) are put forward but no hint is given on which, if any, of them is the true reason for the control.

I like how the Imperium of Man (and a lot of people on the forums) completely overlooks that it was possible for mankind to achieve similar feats of social order based on nothing other than a mindset instilled in a particular civilization over the years. Look at feudal Japan, for the most preeminent example. In fact, authority went even further back then. You didn't even need to be ordered to kill yourself most of the times, you just did it because it was expected of you in certain situations.


- Tau do not use Warp-based space travel. At all. In any way. No sign of earlier fluff on space travel is here. First stage expansion is not explained, but second stage was done using "ZFR Horizon Accelerator Engine" which "allowed ships to attain near-light speed". Third stage is done with "impulse reactors" which "propelled starcraft forward at hitherto unthinkable velocities".

I like to think of the third phase as the Bugatti Veyron paradox. Even if within the space of one technological generations the Tau went from near-light speed to, say, something like the two thousand times the speed of light milestone I mentioned above, they wouldn't be able to make consistent use of that speed. Much like the Bugatti can actually reach something in excess of 400 km/h, the real world means that you can't actually go faster than half that speed because of the roads not being designed around it.

Now, if Tau don't use the Warp at all anymore, that suggest to me that they might actually attain their FTL speeds in real space. Well, real space is absolutely packed with things that could get in your way. Planets, stars, asteroid belts, and all manner of artificial objects of sufficient size would be the equivalent of crashing your car off a cliff or into a tree, becaus you couldn't make the turn fast enough. So, while Tau ships could potentially reach extremely high speeds, they'd be forced to stick to a series of short, straight-line routes, paused by the inevitable slower-than-light-speed periods while maneuvering into position for the next straight line.

I'm radther fond of this pet theory of mine, since it would maintain continuity with the previous 'short distance jumps' fluff (well, ok, the part where they used the Warp to make these jumps is gone, but at least it retains the jumping part)


I would assume this to be true FTL travel, but still slowish since "to further lessen the burden on those space-faring craft with the longest journeys, the Earth Caste had outfitted transport craft with large stasis chambers - Aloowing Hunter Cadres or whole commands to shift to far distant battle zone months or years away without actually aging a day in the process."

Stasis chambers would actually be far more useful for the Tau, considering their shorter life expectancy.


- The last hint on Farsight is a little quote of his own personal recordings: "I've seen things you wouldn't believe - Entire worlds in flames, chains of supernovas on the edge of nothingness, the great hole is space. I am changed, an outcast now..."

Conveniently vague. I approve. Given the Tau Empire's tech level, it could actually be personal experience, delusions of a broken mind, genuine visions of the future, or simply poetic expressions of a peaceful soul who happened to be born in the wrong caste...


- No word, absolutely nothing is said on any Tau being particularly resistant or immune to warp or psychics.

Personal theory is that they're just as vulnerable to psychics as any human, if it's aimed directly at them. However, their minuscule Warp signature makes them almost impervious to the more random or indirect negative effects of the Warp (passive corruption, warp predators), but it has the drawback that they can't tap into the more or less beneficial effects (developing psychic powers or catching the eye of a patron), either. Good news for the Imperium, though. At least nothing the Tau do can feed the Chaos Gods....





- The undefined FTL technology is, IMO, just fine. The Ethereals have total control over the society and the septs are very, very independent in terms of resources and military so "slower than light empire" plausible in the first phase when it was only a handfull of systems anyway. All you really need is to remember that at first phase the Empire was not a centrally led superpower but a conglomerate of septs all joined by common ideology.

Well, I already went with the daymio approach for Ethereals in this post, but an equally interesting way of looking at them (and their authority) would be as chairmen and CEOs


- The Tau have some really impressive technology. They can harness power of the stars and make stars go nova in ways that have been previously mentioned in the fluff only for Necrontyr. Thats some really impressive stuff.

Eldar have been stated to have had access to similar tech, although its use seems to be rather taboo now. I assume that's either because they're actually appalled by that capacity for wanton destruction, or because using it would be so obvious that they'd be made instant targets by everyone


- Funny fact: Tau don't seem to understand the difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar at all. This shows in fluff passages where "War is declared against cruel riders victimizing the new colonies of Ke'lshan. Believing they have tracked their foes down, the Tau instead destroy the Eldar maidenworld of Lilarsus." Also "horrific tortures in the hands of cruel Eldar overseers" kind of points to that.

This is a refreshing sprinkle of naivite and innocence in a codex that otherwise tends to toughen up the little blue fish.


- The description on the page 30 about how a Tau invasion on a world would progress is a mix of old fluff with some nasty new twists. If you read only what happens and when the Tau takeover of an alien world wouldn't be very bad at all... Untill you read the actual text: "Whether willingly, under the intimidating threat of a pulse rifle, or after a series of crushing defeats in bloody battles, many populations now find themselves as part of the growing Tau Empire." "Important alien dignitaries are whisked off for private conferences - often returning with comforting plans of how the situation will progress, although sometimes never returning at all." "One constant is that Tau are always treated as first amongst equals." These are just snippets, but the p 30 is, IMHO, finely written emphasizing both the fact that Tau rule is, after all, far pleasurable for great masses than Imperial rule is in most places and yet still it is a ruthless system that crushes resistance, a steel gauntlet under thin veil of silk.

Nice touch, but it doesn't strike me as particularly ruthless. All of these methods are effective diplomatic levers, successfully applied in the real life by civilizations we think of as democracies. (The Roman Republic, Athens, the British Empire, the United States, etc.) These are actually examples of surgical intervention. Remove all the dissenters of a generation, and you've got yourself fertile grounds for many more generations of peace and stability. By contrast, constant oppression or centralized control are things I would call ruthless...


- As of Farsight I'm still to make up my mind, but really the fluff opens three possibilities:
1) Farsight has had a private meeting with Khorne (he now likes close-combat, his color is blood red, he has seen Eye of Terror etc.)
2) Farsight has had a private meeting with Necrons (he was the sole survivor of an attack by what sounds suspiciously lot like Necrons on a planet which sounds suspiciously lot like Tomb World, the Dawn Blade looks exactly like the balde of a Necron Warscythe and even has the same statline: AP2 with no Initiative penalty and Armoursbane etc.)
3) Both of the above

4) Post-traumatic shock / Nervous breakdown / any other factor. For instance, he's dedicated all his life to furthering the Greater Good, but just snaps after then fails his mission when he's unable to protect the Ethereals who had been relying relying on him. Alternatively, he foolishly worshiped the Ethereals as living avatars of the Greater Good, only to be shocked that they're made of flesh, and thus can be killed by those who would oppose the Greater Good


So, there is text in the codex which straight up says that the ethereals use technology to brainwash people, so mystery over.
"Even without technological aids, he was able to inspire those nearby to impossible acts or bend their will to comply with his wishes. When his natural talents were boosted through artificial means, Aun'Va could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty.


No, it doesn't solve the mystery. In fact, it further muddies the waters a bit...

Take Winston Churchill, for instance. Hell of an orator, who could sway the people he closely worked with to his will, with contemptuous ease.

Now add a technological aid. In his case, radio broadcasting allowed him to sway far, far more people to his vision than he could have possibly done without technology. No brainwashing required. And it gets even better. His sway on the average Tom, Dick and Harry would be magnified by way of radio broadcasts, simply because the vast majority of the people who heard him speak were simply not used to being kept up to speed, and actually being privy to the thoughts and ideas of public leadership figures of their time. To the people who heard him speak in their hour of need, the guy became sort of a legend, and would remain so for as long as they lived.

And here's another interesting thing. By the time Winston was giving his speeches, it was also possible to record voice in order for later playback. That means there's a probability that people who are right now stumbling across his speeches on Youtube might develop a fascination with the guy, decades after his death.

That's a prime example of how technological aids can boost one's influence, without involving pheromones, hypnosis or magic into the equation...

Shamana
12-04-2013, 01:10
Considering the loss of the kroot's inhuman strength, has their depiction in the fluff changed?

Ronin no Matsu
12-04-2013, 02:00
4) Post-traumatic shock / Nervous breakdown / any other factor. For instance, he's dedicated all his life to furthering the Greater Good, but just snaps after then fails his mission when he's unable to protect the Ethereals who had been relying relying on him. Alternatively, he foolishly worshiped the Ethereals as living avatars of the Greater Good, only to be shocked that they're made of flesh, and thus can be killed by those who would oppose the Greater Good


That actually make a lot of sense, thank you sire. I'm relieved somebody is still believing Farsight is an actual Tau. It doesn't explain his incredible longevity, but I guess the warhammer timeline sometime gets weird.


Considering the loss of the kroot's inhuman strength, has their depiction in the fluff changed?

I'll assume it has been transformed in the Ap5 of the Kroot rifle.

MajorWesJanson
12-04-2013, 06:51
That actually make a lot of sense, thank you sire. I'm relieved somebody is still believing Farsight is an actual Tau. It doesn't explain his incredible longevity, but I guess the warhammer timeline sometime gets weird.

IIRC, there was the comment that they are not sure it is actually the original Farsight, potentially a successor who has taken up his mantle.

Polaria
12-04-2013, 06:56
Considering the loss of the kroot's inhuman strength, has their depiction in the fluff changed?

I don't have the old 'dex here for comparison of the fluff but new codex makes no reference of Kroot being somehow especially strong. My guess is that they dropped it for consistency: Can't have a small bird-like alien having same Strenght value as a huge steroid-pumped, half-bionic Marine.

Sandlemad
12-04-2013, 06:59
Considering the loss of the kroot's inhuman strength, has their depiction in the fluff changed?

Not really. There's less talk about them being particularly good in hand-to-hand and more emphasis on their self-sufficiency and fieldcraft. It does say their tactics are generally sniping and picking off leaders before leading an ambush assault.

The main changes in emphasis appear to be their relationship with the Tau, where there's more stress on how they make up the largest individual portion of the auxilaries and how their joining the empire permitted a massive influx of kroot troops (billions, I think) which allowed it to keep expanding at such a fast rate.
There's also some more on how their eating habits are distasteful. The vespid are explicitly said to be much more accepted by all four castes because of this, although the kroot are respected as equals of the tau in the expansions.

totgeboren
12-04-2013, 07:47
That's completely in line with what he said. It could have been the distance to the 2nd and 3rd sphere colonies that was shrunk on that map, not the distance to 1st sphere that was stretched. 1st phase could have occured in the same plane that T'au occupies, and only 2nd and 3rd phases expanded in the 3rd dimension. Actually, it makes more sense that way, because 1st phase ships with relatively primitive engines would have used slingshot effect to increase speed, thus being limited to the plane formed by the planets in T'au system.

Aah, I get it now. I was sort of locked into thinking that any specific distance on the map should be shorter than what it appeared to be. But sure, the ratio of the distance between the first and the 2,3 spheres could be well explained by the way the map is made, especially with the assumption that the distances to the first phase spheres are actually the shortest, and that the map was made with those in mind, resulting in the other spheres simply being angled sharply into or out of the plane of the map.

Lupe
12-04-2013, 11:45
It doesn't explain his incredible longevity, but I guess the warhammer timeline sometime gets weird.

No, but the revelation of the Empire making wide use of stasis technology potentially does.

Now, I just literally made that mental connection, and already I've come up with a few theories. My own favorite implication is that the Enclaves are now ruled by a military council, while Farsight is being kept in stasis (either because he wants to live long enough to see his legacy grow or because others don't want him around to run things), and is only awoken when counsel or a public face is needed - dreadnought style.

bad dice
12-04-2013, 14:50
I like to think of the third phase as the Bugatti Veyron paradox. Even if within the space of one technological generations the Tau went from near-light speed to, say, something like the two thousand times the speed of light milestone I mentioned above, they wouldn't be able to make consistent use of that speed. Much like the Bugatti can actually reach something in excess of 400 km/h, the real world means that you can't actually go faster than half that speed because of the roads not being designed around it.

Now, if Tau don't use the Warp at all anymore, that suggest to me that they might actually attain their FTL speeds in real space. Well, real space is absolutely packed with things that could get in your way. Planets, stars, asteroid belts, and all manner of artificial objects of sufficient size would be the equivalent of crashing your car off a cliff or into a tree, becaus you couldn't make the turn fast enough. So, while Tau ships could potentially reach extremely high speeds, they'd be forced to stick to a series of short, straight-line routes, paused by the inevitable slower-than-light-speed periods while maneuvering into position for the next straight line.

I'm radther fond of this pet theory of mine, since it would maintain continuity with the previous 'short distance jumps' fluff (well, ok, the part where they used the Warp to make these jumps is gone, but at least it retains the jumping part)



This is not entirly true space is so empty that it's hard to understand. But lets just say that if you where to shoot of from earth in any other direction then the planetary plain. You could go on for years and years even at 2000X light speed and still hit nothing. There is so much nothign that beeing something is more a exception then the rule. So as long as you know where you are going you can moste likely go max speed.

bad dice
12-04-2013, 15:00
That actually make a lot of sense, thank you sire. I'm relieved somebody is still believing Farsight is an actual Tau. It doesn't explain his incredible longevity, but I guess the warhammer timeline sometime gets weird.
.


Well i doubt the fluff writer has taken this into account but acording to the relativitie theorie. If you where to travel at near light speed time would flow significantly slower for you then for a person remaining on Tau. So during his travels farsight would not have aged as much as you might expect.

This of course assumes that the Tau are now capable of FTL travel that does not happen in real space ( it should since FLT travel in real space is imposible) Lets assume they have mastered worm holes or time wave surfing tech or some other future tech mombo jumbo. One could then travel to the same point in space as the faresight enclaves in less (or should I say more)relative time. Faresight would seem to have lived for a 1000 years. While from his point of view only a dozen have past.

Lupe
13-04-2013, 02:28
This is not entirly true space is so empty that it's hard to understand. But lets just say that if you where to shoot of from earth in any other direction then the planetary plain. You could go on for years and years even at 2000X light speed and still hit nothing. There is so much nothign that beeing something is more a exception then the rule. So as long as you know where you are going you can moste likely go max speed.

I know, it's a rather crude metaphor, in retrospect, but the analogy is still there.

It would probably be the star systems themselves that act as speed bumps or obstacles to navigate around, when FTL travel occurs between different systems. The effect all the compound forces at play within a star system would have on realspace travel is somewhat beyond my ability to formulate a scientifically accurate theory, but I'd imagine these need to be accounted for, or going too close to a star system could actually have a lot of opportunities to ruin your day

Wwhat I actually had in mind when posting that, was that a significant chunk of time would also be taken up by safely leaving the system you're in, and safely entering the system you're entering. I assume that deceleration from FTL speeds to something resembling any safe intra-system cruise speed doesn't happen instantly, so the brakes would need to be applied at a tremendous distance from your destination. That is, of course, if you don't do it the easy way, by simply dropping out of the Warp at a manageable speed, or even stationary.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
13-04-2013, 17:47
My guess is that they dropped it for consistency: Can't have a small bird-like alien having same Strenght value as a huge steroid-pumped, half-bionic Marine.
Yes you can. To hell with marine fanboyism. Kroots are alien, they don't work like humans, or even terrestrial animals do. They don't have the same kind of muscle or something.

Kiro
13-04-2013, 17:47
<-- bit of a fluff addict.

Is the Iron Hammer campaign (believe that's the name) foreshadowed in the last Tyranid codex included/expanded upon?

Erm, seems to have been kaiboshed; apparently the Guard forces were too weakened to pull anything off so the Tau let them leave with a bunch of medals and a handshake.

TheDungen
14-04-2013, 07:28
faster than light travel is only impossible if einstein's model for relative mass increment of an object in motion is accurate. if the tau manage to move faster than light that would mean that in the 40k universe it is not. science adapts to what it sees by the simplest possible solution, if we see an object that can travel faster than light occam's razor would indicate that it's possible.

Iron_Lord
14-04-2013, 08:04
Erm, seems to have been kaiboshed; apparently the Guard forces were too weakened to pull anything off so the Tau let them leave with a bunch of medals and a handshake.

Didn't it kick off after Castellan Crask reported to the Imperium that the Tau did badly vs the "minor threat" of Hive Fleet Gorgon?

That's not incompatible with the Tau letting him go- him reporting to the High Lords (or the Segmentum commander) and a new campaign against the Tau starting.

aim
14-04-2013, 10:22
The Milky Way galaxy is stated to be ~110 000 light years in diameter, at least according to wiser heads than mine. Right now, the Imperium can traverse that space in about 3-5 years. That's an average of about 22 thousand light years every year with the Imperium's Warp travel. TWENTY THOUSAND times the speed of light. That means that even if the Tau Empire could achieve a tenth of that speed (at the end of M41), it'd still be comparatively slow and hindering to their ability to expand and maintain colonies. Just to put things into proportion...
...<snip>


No, it doesn't solve the mystery. In fact, it further muddies the waters a bit...

Take Winston Churchill, for instance. Hell of an orator, who could sway the people he closely worked with to his will, with contemptuous ease.

Now add a technological aid. In his case, radio broadcasting allowed him to sway far, far more people to his vision than he could have possibly done without technology. No brainwashing required. And it gets even better. His sway on the average Tom, Dick and Harry would be magnified by way of radio broadcasts, simply because the vast majority of the people who heard him speak were simply not used to being kept up to speed, and actually being privy to the thoughts and ideas of public leadership figures of their time. To the people who heard him speak in their hour of need, the guy became sort of a legend, and would remain so for as long as they lived.

And here's another interesting thing. By the time Winston was giving his speeches, it was also possible to record voice in order for later playback. That means there's a probability that people who are right now stumbling across his speeches on Youtube might develop a fascination with the guy, decades after his death.

That's a prime example of how technological aids can boost one's influence, without involving pheromones, hypnosis or magic into the equation...

Sorry to smash your angsty flailing against established fluff with a common sense hammer, but:

1) We are talking of a world with giant robotic fists that can punch through tank armour because they are sheathed with disruption fields, energy shields, people who are half robotic, a navigation system thst involves feeding a thousand PSYCHIC PEOPLE a day into a giant machine and a metaphysical dimension full of aliens comprised of the shadows of human emotion, which enables time-travel and attacking people with mind-bullets and humans have discovered the technology to penetrate and make use of...
Yet you are quoting real world physics of the realities of long distance travel using the KNOWLEGE AND TECHNOLOGY WE HAVE TODAY, and complaining that they haven't given a real world equation to explain how its done. Simply implying that they have the technology to do this, isn't good enough in the last case, but is in the first five, that is called a double standard.

2) It doesn't say "He was a good orator who uses technology to reach more people", it says "When his natural talents were boosted through artificial means, Aun'Va could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty."

Granted, it says that he had natural talents too, and doesn't explain how they work, however, it states in no muddy or subtle or misinterpretable way that they use technology to enable mind control. If you are going to argue points to do with the fluff, please don't ignore most of it in order to try and get your point across because you don't like other parts.



faster than light travel is only impossible if einstein's model for relative mass increment of an object in motion is accurate. if the tau manage to move faster than light that would mean that in the 40k universe it is not. science adapts to what it sees by the simplest possible solution, if we see an object that can travel faster than light occam's razor would indicate that it's possible.

Or, it would indicate that they have discovered something we haven't, or have a greater scientific knowledge than we do, but I guess theres nothing in the fluff that is taken for red without specific scientific equations and theories given to explain it which would indicate this....

I really don't see why people are twisting so much and refusing to accept this.

"Daemons are real and come from a metaphysical realm that is born of our emotions" - "OK, thats fine with me"

"A race several thousand years more advanced technologically than us found a way to make FTL travel viable" - "WTF, OMG, NO! Brian Cox and my armchair Astro-Physics degree says thats unacceptable despite the fact that there are already 2 other in-universe exaples of it!" /throws toys out of pram.

Its really bizzarre to be honest.

blackcherry
14-04-2013, 11:16
Heres something that has changed that a lot of people seem to have missed out on. The Tau empire now has no understanding of what the warp is, or warp travel, where as in the past earth caste scientists were at least working towards a way of getting their own warp tech and believing that the tales of demons and a hellish alter dimension was just propaganda designed to put the off their research.

Now ork and imperial ships appear 'as if from nowhere' and the timeline seems to have rolled back to before they encountered demons for the first time. Thats a small but pretty significant change to things.

LexxBomb
14-04-2013, 11:46
does that mean the Kroot no longer use the Kroot Spheres as they are reverse Engineered Ork Warp based craft...

Kiro
14-04-2013, 12:18
Didn't it kick off after Castellan Crask reported to the Imperium that the Tau did badly vs the "minor threat" of Hive Fleet Gorgon?

That's not incompatible with the Tau letting him go- him reporting to the High Lords (or the Segmentum commander) and a new campaign against the Tau starting.

I think there's been something of a retcon here, or at least we have a writer who didn't do their homework: there is no mention of fighting between Guard and Tau forces, not even implied.
It simply reads as the Guard turn up late for the Damocles Crusade, they join up with the Tau, and when the Tyranids are defeated the Guard are 'too weakened to complete their mission' and are allowed to leave Tau space with full honors.

Polaria
14-04-2013, 12:33
Yes you can. To hell with marine fanboyism. Kroots are alien, they don't work like humans, or even terrestrial animals do. They don't have the same kind of muscle or something.

Doesn't have anything to do with so-called 'marine fanboyism'. If fluff says Land Raider is a big-ass hunking tank and Chimera ain't you don't go and give both AV14 just because you don't want to be "marine fanboy". You give Chimera less, 'cause fluff says its SUPPOSED to be that way. Orks are big-ass hunkin' alien mofos from hell in the fluff and even they don't get S4, because a single marine is supposed to be, according to same fluff, able to take on a whole horde of Orks.

LexxBomb
14-04-2013, 13:58
Yes Orks are big and strong but they are on par with Catachan Deathworlders and they are only S3...

Lord-Caerolion
14-04-2013, 14:04
Basically, a better way of thinking about it is that S4 is the point at which they can punch through a tanks armour. Orks and Kroot are stronger than humans, they're just not that strong, and so are only S3, because we're limited to only 10 levels of Strength. If it were an RPG, where the stats go from 0-100, then a Kroot and Ork would be noticably stronger than a human, but again, not quite as strong as a Marine.

LexxBomb
14-04-2013, 14:10
as exampled in the Inquisitor RPG

The_NightBringer
14-04-2013, 17:31
Do we actually know that the new horizon accelerators and impulse reactors are actually different from the (un-named) gravitic drives that the Tau used to skim the warp previously?

I've whipped through the new Codex, but couldn't see anything which actually said that the Tau don't still use a form of warp drive.

I'm also interested in this, could anyone who possesses the codex please shed light on this?

To be fair, this is starting to look dangerously close to a "retcon by omission", due to the fact one would think mentioning the warp skimming method (if used by T'au still) would have been important to mention, especially if the codex has decided to talk about their FTL methods to begin with.

However, it is entirely possible that this was simply an oversight.

Thanks.

Idaan
14-04-2013, 18:05
I'm also interested in this, could anyone who possesses the codex please shed light on this?

To be fair, this is starting to look dangerously close to a "retcon by omission", due to the fact one would think mentioning the warp skimming method (if used by T'au still) would have been important to mention, especially if the codex has decided to talk about their FTL methods to begin with.

However, it is entirely possible that this was simply an oversight.

Thanks.

There's no mention of the Warp in the codex as far as I saw. Also, the Tau Warp-drive was supposed to be retro-engineered from an alien vessel crashed on the moon of T'au - there's no mention of that either. Consider also that the Ion tech was previously supposed to come from Demiurg, and now it's explicitly said to be Earth-caste created. Compare with how in "1984" Winston Smith muses on how the Party now claims to have invented airplanes, even though he can remember that some time before they only claimed the invention of helicopters.
This makes me think that the nature of Tau FTL is still the same, only vaguely worded due to Tau not having a good understanding of the Warp, and wanting to claim the invention for themselves. That's what totalitarian regimes do, and Tau are a totalitarian regime, no matter if they're completely benevolent, shades of grey or North Korea in disguise.

Polaria
14-04-2013, 18:45
I'm also interested in this, could anyone who possesses the codex please shed light on this?

To be fair, this is starting to look dangerously close to a "retcon by omission", due to the fact one would think mentioning the warp skimming method (if used by T'au still) would have been important to mention, especially if the codex has decided to talk about their FTL methods to begin with.

However, it is entirely possible that this was simply an oversight.

Thanks.

Just to make the thing crystal clear: So far I've found absolutely no explanation in the Codex as to how the Tau space travel actually works. All we have is "first they were veeeeeryyyyy slow, then they were a bit faster but still damn slow, now they are on top of their game and still damn slow" :P

The_NightBringer
14-04-2013, 18:54
There's no mention of the Warp in the codex as far as I saw. Also, the Tau Warp-drive was supposed to be retro-engineered from an alien vessel crashed on the moon of T'au - there's no mention of that either. Consider also that the Ion tech was previously supposed to come from Demiurg, and now it's explicitly said to be Earth-caste created. Compare with how in "1984" Winston Smith muses on how the Party now claims to have invented airplanes, even though he can remember that some time before they only claimed the invention of helicopters.
This makes me think that the nature of Tau FTL is still the same, only vaguely worded due to Tau not having a good understanding of the Warp, and wanting to claim the invention for themselves. That's what totalitarian regimes do, and Tau are a totalitarian regime, no matter if they're completely benevolent, shades of grey or North Korea in disguise.

That makes a-lot of sense, but it compels me to ask, how is the information presented in the codex? I thought the information was delivered through a omniscient narrator, ultimately rendering the need of the T'au's knowledge obsolete.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
14-04-2013, 19:37
If fluff says Land Raider is a big-ass hunking tank and Chimera ain't you don't go and give both AV14 just because you don't want to be "marine fanboy".
So where does the fluff says that kroot are not super-strong ?

Rogue Star
14-04-2013, 19:39
Just to make the thing crystal clear: So far I've found absolutely no explanation in the Codex as to how the Tau space travel actually works. All we have is "first they were veeeeeryyyyy slow, then they were a bit faster but still damn slow, now they are on top of their game and still damn slow" :P

Well from their perspective they've gotten steadily faster, but because the author didn't give an example like "With the new Horizon Accelerator Drive, Tau colony ships could cross the length and breadth of the Tau Empire (sphere 300lys in diameter) in a mere month/year", or a comparison with Imperial ship, it's just basically given fancy names to stuff. But then for 40K game, it's enough they can reach other worlds and thus, other battlefields.

blackcherry
14-04-2013, 20:56
Well from their perspective they've gotten steadily faster, but because the author didn't give an example like "With the new Horizon Accelerator Drive, Tau colony ships could cross the length and breadth of the Tau Empire (sphere 300lys in diameter) in a mere month/year", or a comparison with Imperial ship, it's just basically given fancy names to stuff. But then for 40K game, it's enough they can reach other worlds and thus, other battlefields.

I miss Rick Priestly. At one point travel in the 40K universe at least had its own internal consistency. Now it may as well just be 'its magic'.


does that mean the Kroot no longer use the Kroot Spheres as they are reverse Engineered Ork Warp based craft...

Well it may still be that way. It isn't mentioned, but its the only way I can figure a Kroot would be able to make the pilgrimage to Pech in their lifetimes, especially when its mentioned that Kroot warbands can be found "scattered all across the galaxy".

Lord-Caerolion
14-04-2013, 21:38
So where does the fluff says that kroot are not super-strong ?

And where's the fluff saying they can't fly, or shoot lasers from their eyes? The background doesn't mention the Kroot being super-strong, therefore they aren't super-strong. The background doesn't explain everything that a race isn't.

Monk813
14-04-2013, 22:04
And where's the fluff saying they can't fly, or shoot lasers from their eyes? The background doesn't mention the Kroot being super-strong, therefore they aren't super-strong. The background doesn't explain everything that a race isn't.

Bit of a fluff enthusiast, so I scanned a lot of the articles from when WD was more than a product catalogue. In the Index Xenos "Savage Evolution" Kroot are described as being "tall and their bodies have a wiriness to them that seems deceptively fragile. In actuality, Kroot musculature is extremely powerful and composed of dense fiber spindles with a greater power-to mass ratio than is found in humans."

When describing their combat prowess, they go on to say "They are skillful warriors, stronger and more furious in assault than an Imperial Guardsman, perhaps even the equal of a member of the Adeptus Astartes..."

The fluff has spoken.

bittick
14-04-2013, 22:23
It doesn't say how their FTL works. What it does say is that they don't understand Imperial Warp Drives. To the Tau, Imperial ships obviously function in a much different way than their own, even if it's just the visual effect of transit and the physical appearance of the engine. In other words, Tau engines might look like they belong in Star Trek. The "skipping off the Warp" technique might look to the eyes like the Enterprise streaking off into the distance. But Imperial engines could look like the core from Event Horizon, with mystical symbols etched in cold iron all over the place, and when Imperial ships leave the Warp there could be a giant tear in space that rips open and the ship flies out, surrounded by unearthly light.

It doesn't say the Tau haven't encountered demons or the Warp. They just don't understand it or know what it is. They might not even be aware of it at all, even its existence. The humans just say things like "the Emperor protects us from the fires of Hell!" and the orks say that Gork swallows them up and farts them out on the other side of the galaxy. And that's why the Tau don't listen to things humans or orks say.

But it doesn't mean that the way their ships function has changed. They basically rebuilt an alien star drive without understanding how it works. They understand the regular physics aspect, but missed the part about "then you use the engine to channel your psychic powers and open a portal to hell". So the engines they did make can't breach the Warp.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
14-04-2013, 22:56
Bit of a fluff enthusiast, so I scanned a lot of the articles from when WD was more than a product catalogue. In the Index Xenos "Savage Evolution" Kroot are described as being "tall and their bodies have a wiriness to them that seems deceptively fragile. In actuality, Kroot musculature is extremely powerful and composed of dense fiber spindles with a greater power-to mass ratio than is found in humans."

When describing their combat prowess, they go on to say "They are skillful warriors, stronger and more furious in assault than an Imperial Guardsman, perhaps even the equal of a member of the Adeptus Astartes..."

The fluff has spoken.
Thanks. Just as planned :D.

LordLucan
14-04-2013, 23:10
And where's the fluff saying they can't fly, or shoot lasers from their eyes?

Some kroot can fly you know... used to have rules in the kroot mercenary list... ;)

blackcherry
15-04-2013, 07:46
Well if you want to use count as, kroot still can ;)

totgeboren
15-04-2013, 08:06
Bit of a fluff enthusiast, so I scanned a lot of the articles from when WD was more than a product catalogue. In the Index Xenos "Savage Evolution" Kroot are described as being "tall and their bodies have a wiriness to them that seems deceptively fragile. In actuality, Kroot musculature is extremely powerful and composed of dense fiber spindles with a greater power-to mass ratio than is found in humans."

When describing their combat prowess, they go on to say "They are skillful warriors, stronger and more furious in assault than an Imperial Guardsman, perhaps even the equal of a member of the Adeptus Astartes..."

The fluff has spoken.

And an ork can rip the arms of a man. So Kroots should be about the same strength as an ork... ;)

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-04-2013, 12:01
Isn't “perhaps even the equal of a member of the Adeptus Astartes” explicit enough ?

Theocracity
15-04-2013, 15:46
I'm perfectly okay with Kroot having S3, regardless of what now-outdated fluff implies. Why? Because it supports the idea that human-equivalent strength and toughness is the standard in the galaxy.

When S4 and T4 are treated as an outlier, it not only reinforces that those stats are special - it counters the concept that S3 T3 is the mark of being weak.

I know you don't like the idea that Marines are somehow special, ASoB ;). But I prefer a world built around the idea that they are special, and thus deviate from the human-level norm, rather than the idea that they're ubiquitous and therefore anything human-standard is weak. It helps the human-level heroes stand out a bit more.

And before anyone asks, I'm not really talking about the in-game efficacy of S3 T3 or the ubiquity of marines on the table - purely what it represents in terms of the setting. It's like Fantasy - when S3 is a wide standard, it makes S4 stand out.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-04-2013, 17:22
As far as I know tau, eldar, humans, ork and Gaunt have strength 3. Necrons and Marines have Strength 4. Downgrading the Kroot from 4 to 3 is barely changing the idea that 4 is the norm or not, it's mainly dragging the kroot down. The idea that 4 is the norm do not come from the fact kroot have 4, it comes from the marinefest that this game is. Just remove all the marine codex from the game, and 4 is exceptional.

Theocracity
15-04-2013, 17:34
I'm not talking about the game as played - just how the rules reflect the setting. I think it helps when certain elements of the setting work to treat humans as the baseline (S3) rather than astartes as the baseline. Making Kroot S3 isn't a big change towards that, but it helps the veracity a bit to me.

As for dragging the Kroot down, I actually think S3 helps them perform one of their roles - now that they're less likely to win an assault, they're less likely to provide an enemy assault unit with the safety of melee and thus are improved at being a speedbump unit (plus they're cheaper). In exchange they get more versatile abilities as hunter / guerrilla skirmishers, which I think fits their design better than a melee unit.

Lord Damocles
15-04-2013, 17:53
It's not impossible that the AP5 on Kroot Rifles in close combat in part represents their greater combat prowess/strength than unaugmented humans - it seems unlikely that a spikey gun is that superior to a monomolecular blade/chainsword etc. on it's own at any rate.

iamtheeviltwin
15-04-2013, 19:04
Isn't “perhaps even the equal of a member of the Adeptus Astartes” explicit enough ?

Kroot are WS 4, which makes them the equivalent to a SM in fighting prowess...and better than an IG. ST is not the only measure of fighting ability, I and WS also come into play. Also note, that Kroot are "perhaps" equal to an Astartes...not that they "are" equal to an Astartes.

Polaria
15-04-2013, 19:17
Are we STILL crying about Kroot S3?

Oh, we are... Okay, don't mind me. Just go on. I'll be back to check if the subject has changed on, lets say page 12? :rolleyes:

blackcherry
15-04-2013, 19:29
Are we STILL crying about Kroot S3?

Oh, we are... Okay, don't mind me. Just go on. I'll be back to check if the subject has changed on, lets say page 12? :rolleyes:

Well, many people (myself included) have tried. We managed to get off the topic of which form of imaginary FTL travel was the best didn't we? :p

theunwantedbeing
15-04-2013, 19:38
It's not impossible that the AP5 on Kroot Rifles in close combat in part represents their greater combat prowess/strength than unaugmented humans - it seems unlikely that a spikey gun is that superior to a monomolecular blade/chainsword etc. on it's own at any rate.

Maybe kroot fight by hitting a specific part of their opponent, and it simply isn't covered for 5+ and 6+ saves, whereas it is for 4+ saves.
Whereas everyone else just aims for the armour all the time because reasons that only really make sense in the 40k universe.

Iron_Lord
15-04-2013, 19:38
It references a Shas'O Kais- is it a reference to the Dawn of War x-pack?

Haven't played it- but Lexicanum mentions a Shas'O Kais was in that.

Also- what's the evidence that gave rise to the theory that O'Kais is the same Kais from Fire Warrior?

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-04-2013, 20:11
I'm not talking about the game as played - just how the rules reflect the setting.
Then, look again. The rules used to 3 things with S4. marines, necrons, and kroot. That didn't make S4 look usual, that just made the kroot look very though. Though as in http://eatatau.smackjeeves.com/comics/997458/are-you-bulkier/ .

I think it helps when certain elements of the setting work to treat humans as the baseline (S3) rather than astartes as the baseline.
I can only name one element that make the setting work to treat marines as the baseline. One. And even this one is less viable now that their armor save was reduced to 4+. It's necron.

As for dragging the Kroot down, I actually think S3 helps them perform one of their roles - now that they're less likely to win an assault, they're less likely to provide an enemy assault unit with the safety of melee and thus are improved at being a speedbump unit (plus they're cheaper).
So now you are going back to rules for rules sake. Ok.

Kroot are WS 4, which makes them the equivalent to a SM in fighting prowess...and better than an IG. ST is not the only measure of fighting ability, I and WS also come into play.
“They are skillful warriors, stronger and more furious in assault than an Imperial Guardsman, perhaps even the equal of a member of the Adeptus Astartes...”
Right now they are far, far away from being the equal of a marine.

Theocracity
15-04-2013, 20:37
Then, look again. The rules used to 3 things with S4. marines, necrons, and kroot. That didn't make S4 look usual, that just made the kroot look very though. Though as in http://eatatau.smackjeeves.com/comics/997458/are-you-bulkier/ .

I can only name one element that make the setting work to treat marines as the baseline. One. And even this one is less viable now that their armor save was reduced to 4+. It's necron.


I wasn't talking full MEQ statlines in general. But a lot of the game reflects Marines, such as the base weapon being bolters. If the default ranged weapon in Fantasy was S4, you'd have a lot more people playing dwarves for their relatively less common T4.

I just like the idea that most of the xenos in the galaxy are roughly equivalent with humans. It makes marines feel special - which is nice when their lion's share of the armies on the table makes them feel common (and by extension the other factions feel weak). It's a question of human-equivalent feeling standard instead of substandard.



So now you are going back to rules for rules sake. Ok.

It's almost like I can like the change for multiple reasons and talk about them at the same time :).


“They are skillful warriors, stronger and more furious in assault than an Imperial Guardsman, perhaps even the equal of a member of the Adeptus Astartes...”
Right now they are far, far away from being the equal of a marine.

They occupy a role that fits their looks and style, matches other alien races, and doesn't impede their intended role on the table. I'll take that over a qualified and limited fragment of fluff.

blackcherry
15-04-2013, 20:54
Christ. Look. Kroot are stronger than humans (look at their inqusitor stat line, they are) and in some cases may be as strong as a marine (for all your highlighting of words, you seem to miss out on the key word 'perhaps' in your quote). So if the game allowed it they would be S3.5 or something.

Now can we get on with talking about something to do with the background, instead of how a model is represented stat wise on the tabletop? GW general and the lax rules about trolling are that way ^.

Horus38
15-04-2013, 20:58
Are we STILL crying about Kroot S3?

Oh, we are... Okay, don't mind me. Just go on. I'll be back to check if the subject has changed on, lets say page 12? :rolleyes:

Lmao, yea, I was skimming the thread and was like "Where is this coming from?". Anyone will have a much harder time convincing me kroot should be S4 then S3 with WS4.

Kiro
15-04-2013, 21:00
It references a Shas'O Kais- is it a reference to the Dawn of War x-pack?

Haven't played it- but Lexicanum mentions a Shas'O Kais was in that.

Also- what's the evidence that gave rise to the theory that O'Kais is the same Kais from Fire Warrior?

It is indeed that same O'Kais. There's nothing more to that theory, the first time I've heard it being here and now, other than they have the same, common, Tau name - Kais.

Theocracity
15-04-2013, 21:04
It is indeed that same O'Kais. There's nothing more to that theory, the first time I've heard it being here and now, other than they have the same, common, Tau name - Kais.

Yeah, I think it's just a reused name. Is Fire Warrior even considered a particularly reliable source for Tau fluff?

Kiro
15-04-2013, 21:07
As reliable as anything else put out by BL. Sure, it's provenance might be a little....dubious....but it's not that bad!

On a related note, Codex: Tau Empire has taken from Fire Warrior the Tau words for Ork and Tyranid: "B'gel" and "Y'he" respectively. Surprised that hasn't happened sooner.

Theocracity
15-04-2013, 21:12
Oh my bad, I didn't realize there was a book. I thought it was just the video game, and I've heard...mixed things about that.

Kiro
15-04-2013, 21:13
Never played the game myself due to hearing those same things, but I read the book and it was neither bad nor good!

Lord Damocles
15-04-2013, 21:56
The Tau commander units in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade (and Soulstorm) even shout something along the lines of 'Make Puretide proud' when selected.


Maybe Farsight threw a hissy fit and stormed off because he didn't get to have a cool XV-22 suit too :p

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
15-04-2013, 23:19
But a lot of the game reflects Marines, such as the base weapon being bolters.
What do you mean by “base weapon” ? Only marines and Sisters use bolters.

It's almost like I can like the change for multiple reasons and talk about them at the same time :).
Especially if it allows you to always say you were not speaking about things on the same level as I did:).

Kiro
15-04-2013, 23:19
He got the Dawnblade though. Stop crying, Farsight :p

Theocracity
15-04-2013, 23:30
What do you mean by “base weapon” ? Only marines and Sisters use bolters.

Especially if it allows you to always say you were not speaking about things on the same level as I did:).

I'm not even sure what kind of point you're trying to make anymore. Are you seriously nitpicking the fact that I didn't say 'bolter-equivalent'? Or are most basic troops toting S3 guns and I didn't notice? Do you think I'm trying to trick you when I change my focus after a paragraph break?

Is there any reason to keep talking about this? I do have an answer to that question :p.

jakejackjake
15-04-2013, 23:51
Doesn't have anything to do with so-called 'marine fanboyism'. If fluff says Land Raider is a big-ass hunking tank and Chimera ain't you don't go and give both AV14 just because you don't want to be "marine fanboy". You give Chimera less, 'cause fluff says its SUPPOSED to be that way. Orks are big-ass hunkin' alien mofos from hell in the fluff and even they don't get S4, because a single marine is supposed to be, according to same fluff, able to take on a whole horde of Orks.

Doesn't that depend entirely on the Orks they're facing, the Space Marine in question and a million other fact meaning it depends completely on the story being told? The fluff goes back in forth a million times. Theres fluff where Inquisitors kills Bloodthirsters, and I've readquite a bit of fluff where Kroot are MUCH MUCH stronger then regular guardsmen

Liber
16-04-2013, 07:14
The fluff goes back in forth a million times.

Or, as I've realized after glancing through this thread, fluff is just simply erased. Not replaced with anything, just not written, or written with a stark lack of detail.

After 10 pages of arguments I think its clear that the new tau fluff is a failure. I mean half the points being made are drawing from out dated codex's or other sources because there is hardly any referable material in the new dex.

The most obvious (and popular it seems) example is the Tau mode of interstellar travel coupled with their relationship with the Warp.

Where there was once a detailed narrative, we now have zero mention of the Warp at all, and a simple 'they move faster than light' for the rest.

avien
16-04-2013, 07:21
Or, as I've realized after glancing through this thread, fluff is just simply erased. Not replaced with anything, just not written, or written with a stark lack of detail.

After 10 pages of arguments I think its clear that the new tau fluff is a failure. I mean half the points being made are drawing from out dated codex's or other sources because there is hardly any referable material in the new dex.

The most obvious (and popular it seems) example is the Tau mode of interstellar travel coupled with their relationship with the Warp.

Where there was once a detailed narrative, we now have zero mention of the Warp at all, and a simple 'they fly faster than light' for the rest.
Emphasis added-
It doesn't even state that as it happens. From "near light speed" to "Previously unimagined speeds"

I would agree that there is a certain lacking of detail for certain things.

It has always been the way that there are certain omissions from a newer codex without a replacement which leaves the older background as unaltered, and then you have the whole interstellar travel debacle... Which admittedly is my pet peeve in this codex.

LexxBomb
16-04-2013, 07:57
What do you mean by “base weapon” ? Only marines and Sisters use bolters.

Especially if it allows you to always say you were not speaking about things on the same level as I did:).

who remembers the days when Orks used Boltguns... I do

Surgency
17-04-2013, 03:52
I've gotta call shennangens on GW here. Tau have always had answers to Titans, beasts, and other large targets. Mantas were called Titan killers since the beginning, for one thing.

The Taros Campaign book disagrees, and identifies the AX-1-0 Tiger Shark as being the weapon developed to combat them. They were shocked at the use of titans on Taros, and rushed the experimental Tiger Shark into production to aid the fight. The Imperium wasn't expecting a weapon that could kill titans outright, so the titans more or less ran away. If the Tau had been using Mantas to fight Titans all along, the Imperium wouldn't have been so surprised that the Tau had a weapon capable of destroying them.

Mantas were used to transport entire cadres and to provide supporting fire in ship to ship combat.


2) It doesn't say "He was a good orator who uses technology to reach more people", it says "When his natural talents were boosted through artificial means, Aun'Va could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty."

Granted, it says that he had natural talents too, and doesn't explain how they work, however, it states in no muddy or subtle or misinterpretable way that they use technology to enable mind control. If you are going to argue points to do with the fluff, please don't ignore most of it in order to try and get your point across because you don't like other parts.

Likewise, it doesn't say that he used mind-control devices to hypnotically implant subliminal messages in his audience. It merely states that when he uses technology he goes from being an Ethereal that people listen to, to being THE Ethereal, the Tau version of EF Hutton. No statement of how that happens, or that the technology hypnotizes people and implants suggestions, just that he uses technology. Getting your point across correctly works both ways.

Kakapo42
17-04-2013, 07:33
The Taros Campaign book disagrees, and identifies the AX-1-0 Tiger Shark as being the weapon developed to combat them. They were shocked at the use of titans on Taros, and rushed the experimental Tiger Shark into production to aid the fight. The Imperium wasn't expecting a weapon that could kill titans outright, so the titans more or less ran away. If the Tau had been using Mantas to fight Titans all along, the Imperium wouldn't have been so surprised that the Tau had a weapon capable of destroying them.

Mantas were used to transport entire cadres and to provide supporting fire in ship to ship combat.

Actually, Mantas were the premier anti-titan unit of the Tau military for a very long time. They were used to hunt down and engage titans during the Damocles Gulf Crusade for one, and there are doubtless countless times they've had to be used against Superheavy Ork units. However being large and extremely valuable units meant that constantly risking them against things like titans was beginning to get impractical. The AX-10 Tiger Shark was developed as a much more economical and practical weapon against them, being able to bring firepower comparable to that of a Manta on a much smaller, cheaper and more agile chassis. The Imperium knew the Tau had weapons to deal with titans, they just didn't know they could put them on anything smaller than a Manta, and that is why the AX-10 came as such a shock to the Imperial forces on T'ros.

Stonerhino
17-04-2013, 07:41
Not quite. The shock was more because an AX-1-0 gutted a Wolfhound in a single pass. Which made the other Wolfhounds flee.

Mantas, were used as a defunct anti-titan weapon. They are capable of hurting starships and thus is capable of bringing weapons powerfull enough bring down the largest titans. The AX-1-0 is taking the main offensive weapon from the Manta and making a true anti-titan platform.

aim
17-04-2013, 10:54
Likewise, it doesn't say that he used mind-control devices to hypnotically implant subliminal messages in his audience. It merely states that when he uses technology he goes from being an Ethereal that people listen to, to being THE Ethereal, the Tau version of EF Hutton. No statement of how that happens, or that the technology hypnotizes people and implants suggestions, just that he uses technology. Getting your point across correctly works both ways.

Except that my point comes from the fluff, where it states (in black and white, with no vagaries about it this time) that the ethereals use mind control and they use technology to facilitate this. Your point is that you don't like that idea so are happy to ignore said statement and repeatedly claim that they are just good speakers...

Nikolaus
17-04-2013, 11:51
Except that my point comes from the fluff, where it states (in black and white, with no vagaries about it this time) that the ethereals use mind control and they use technology to facilitate this. Your point is that you don't like that idea so are happy to ignore said statement and repeatedly claim that they are just good speakers...

what you quoted is that he "could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty.", it doesnt say by technology as given enough time and practice i could do the same to you with just my voice, and i know several of hypnotist that do the same on an hourly basis.

Surgency
17-04-2013, 13:10
they use technology to facilitate this.

What technology? Where does it say they use mind control devices? You're incorrectly asserting that the technology is a mind control device, when it could be virtually anything (even a microphone is "technology"). The codex, in the fluff, posits the theory that the Ethereals somehow use a form of mind control on everyone else. It is theorized that this mind control may be psychic, pheromonal, or technological in nature. No one knows how it happens. Aun'Va uses technology, but there is absolutely NO statement of what that technology is used to do, or how he uses the tech at his disposal.

LexxBomb
17-04-2013, 15:07
wasn't the Vespid helmet a form of mind control technology

Surgency
17-04-2013, 15:14
wasn't the Vespid helmet a form of mind control technology

I can't remember if its brought up in the new codex, but the old book has this to say:


Upon first contact.... Water Caste couldn't talk to them....mindset too strange....Earth Caste developed a comms interface.....Uniquely the whole race accepted the Tau rule... "It has been whispered that this acceptance is linked to the fact that all of the race's leaders wear the interface helmets given to them by the Tau, but no evidence of this claim has proved forthcoming"

So they hint that there may be more than just normal talks, but like everything else its unclear, and that theory is left to the reader to ponder.

Individual8580
17-04-2013, 15:19
My favorite new bit is Earth Case accidentally making stars explode.

Lupe
19-04-2013, 01:09
what you quoted is that he "could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty.", it doesnt say by technology as given enough time and practice i could do the same to you with just my voice, and i know several of hypnotist that do the same on an hourly basis.

Yeah, some people mistakenly read that statement as clear proof that "The Ethereals have access to a brainwashing device and they're not shy on using it". That's not the case. Starbucks can implant powerful auto-suggestion that lasts for a lifetime and instills unbreakable loyalty, if I were to judge on how the coffee drinking habits of my co-workers changed since a Starbucks opened just next door to our office building... Heck, pretty much any advertising campaign with cleverly invented statistics and enough air coverage fits the bill, but that's not enough to qualify for mind control.

Isoroku
20-04-2013, 14:39
Warhound not Wolfhound Aim, Wolfhound is a Battlemech

Stonerhino
20-04-2013, 23:21
Stupid Phelan Kell...

But ya Warhound not wolfhound.

Monk813
21-04-2013, 02:12
I just like the idea that most of the xenos in the galaxy are roughly equivalent with humans. It makes marines feel special - which is nice when their lion's share of the armies on the table makes them feel common (and by extension the other factions feel weak). It's a question of human-equivalent feeling standard instead of substandard.


I actually have the opposite opinion. Marines are special because they are superhuman. I like the idea that the various xenos are superior to humans, that's why the Space Marines needed to be created in the first place. But this is getting into a whole other discussion.


I can't remember if its brought up in the new codex, but the old book has this to say:



So they hint that there may be more than just normal talks, but like everything else its unclear, and that theory is left to the reader to ponder.

The new Codex says the same thing. Here is a possible clue as to the possible truth though. Something that I should've noticed in the old codex, but the tau word for "Vespid" is "Mal'kor". If you consider that the Tau word for "Drone" is "Kor'vesa", it's not hard to figure out how the Tau possibly think of their Vespid allies.

Kakapo42
21-04-2013, 03:32
The new Codex says the same thing. Here is a possible clue as to the possible truth though. Something that I should've noticed in the old codex, but the tau word for "Vespid" is "Mal'kor". If you consider that the Tau word for "Drone" is "Kor'vesa", it's not hard to figure out how the Tau possibly think of their Vespid allies.

That they're incredibly valuable flying creatures? "Kor" is the Tau word for Air/flight, and "vesa" is the Tau word for 'helper'. Kor'vessa, the Tau name for drones, translates into 'faithful helper', with the "Kor" in it referring to the hovering capabilities most drones have (the Tau name for human auxiliaries is "Gue'vesa" which translates to 'human helper'). "Mal" is a Tau word that seems to denote an arthropod ("Mal'caor" is the Tau word for spider), so "Mal'Kor" would basically mean 'flying insect creature', which is a pretty good description of what a Vespid looks like.

bittick
21-04-2013, 04:04
Stupid Phelan Kell...

But ya Warhound not wolfhound.

Phelan was always a douche. Of course, fighting a MadCat with a Warhound would not be nearly as impressive.

TheDungen
21-04-2013, 08:34
what you quoted is that he "could implant powerful auto-suggestions that last a lifetime and instill unbreakable loyalty.", it doesnt say by technology as given enough time and practice i could do the same to you with just my voice, and i know several of hypnotist that do the same on an hourly basis.

actually, hypnotheraphy, requires the subject to be trained over a long period of time. It's not mind control, it is slightly more efficient brainwashing. Exposure is everything when it comes to altering behaviour.

Escaflowne_Z
21-04-2013, 09:20
Phelan was always a douche. Of course, fighting a MadCat with a Warhound would not be nearly as impressive.


Awww, I liked Phelan. And I'm not sure I would bet against a Timberwolf/Madcat in pretty much any matchup ever. ;)

Merqu
21-04-2013, 10:27
The new Codex says the same thing. Here is a possible clue as to the possible truth though. Something that I should've noticed in the old codex, but the tau word for "Vespid" is "Mal'kor". If you consider that the Tau word for "Drone" is "Kor'vesa", it's not hard to figure out how the Tau possibly think of their Vespid allies.

'Mal' = insect/arthropod, seeing as they have an exo-skeleton it's fair to assume they are invertebrates. 'kor' means air. So essential it's saying they are flying insects. Which lets face, that's what they are and is an apt description :).

source: http://forums.tauonline.org/tau/37435-definitive-tau-xenolexicon.html

El_Machinae
21-04-2013, 18:10
Wait, continent-sized space stations?

avien
21-04-2013, 18:25
Wait, continent-sized space stations?

The fortress stations are presumably the way stations revealed in BFG, they've just defined their size. Of course they have gone a bit over the top as do all things in 40k.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
21-04-2013, 18:56
Something that I should've noticed in the old codex, but the tau word for "Vespid" is "Mal'kor". If you consider that the Tau word for "Drone" is "Kor'vesa", it's not hard to figure out how the Tau possibly think of their Vespid allies.
The English word for “People who are owned by other people and denied most rights” is “slave”. The English word for some group of people from central and eastern Europe is “Slav”. It's not hard to figure out how the Englishmen think of Russians… oh wait :eek: !

The bearded one
21-04-2013, 19:18
The fortress stations are presumably the way stations revealed in BFG, they've just defined their size. Of course they have gone a bit over the top as do all things in 40k.

The aircaste has gotta live somewhere :)

Monk813
21-04-2013, 20:15
Hmm... Don't know how I missed that. I did say possibly :)

Guess I jumped to conclusions looking at the translations in the new codex. Figured out that "vesa" meant helper, so when I saw the drone translation as "kor'vesa" or "faithful helper" and then saw "kor" as part of the word for "vespid" I (erroneously, I suppose) jumped to the conclusion that the Tau were calling Vespid "drones" or "faithful as a drone". And since drones don't have any free will, I assumed they were implying that the Vespid didn't either.

starlight
21-04-2013, 20:38
The English word for “People who are owned by other people and denied most rights” is “slave”. The English word for some group of people from central and eastern Europe is “Slav”. It's not hard to figure out how the Englishmen think of Russians… oh wait :eek: !


:eyebrows:

Seriously?

:eyebrows:

Both 'slave' and 'Slav' predate English as a language, having been borrowed from other languages. 'Slav' is the term used to refer to the group of Slavic people due to their common language. 'Slave' comes from the French.

theunwantedbeing
21-04-2013, 20:43
Wait, continent-sized space stations?

Continent sized populations on the Space stations.
It doesn't seem to reference the actual physical size of the space station at all.

A 3D space station can easily be a lot physically smaller in terms of length and width than a city, provided it has significantly more depth.
Same as how a skyscraper takes up way less land than a building of the same floor area but only a single story tall, rather than several

Still huge though unless they're packed like sardines.

Stonerhino
21-04-2013, 21:02
Awww, I liked Phelan. And I'm not sure I would bet against a Timberwolf/Madcat in pretty much any matchup ever. ;)That being said I keep picturing Fireknife Crisis suits as Elementals. It would not be a bad 40k equivalent, if they could all have Onager gauntlets too. Just having armour bane would be better but there's not an existing system for it.

Kiro
21-04-2013, 21:50
Both 'slave' and 'Slav' predate English as a language, having been borrowed from other languages. 'Slav' is the term used to refer to the group of Slavic people due to their common language. 'Slave' comes from the French.

As an aside, the English word 'slave' does actually derive from 'Slav' from Greek through Arabic. For historic reasons, due to a large influx of slaves into the Arabic and Byzantine worlds, the Byzantine Greek word for the Slavs (Σκλάβήνοι/Sklavenoi), and it's Arabic cognate, became the generic word for slaves, eventually making it's way into English as 'slave'. Neither here, nor there, but thought you guys might like to know :)

bittick
21-04-2013, 22:22
That being said I keep picturing Fireknife Crisis suits as Elementals. It would not be a bad 40k equivalent, if they could all have Onager gauntlets too. Just having armour bane would be better but there's not an existing system for it.

Infantry is pretty much infantry. At Battletech/Epic scale there's not much difference. Elementals are rough Terminator/Crisis suit equivalents. Protomechs of various sizes could stand in as Dreadnoughts or Riptide suits. And a MadCat might actually be able to beat a Warhound, you never know. :)

Stonerhino
21-04-2013, 23:59
Titans in 40k are scaled way different then battlemechs. While a Madcat in all likelyhood outclasses a warhound in offencive capabilities. It cannot compete with the raw brutishness of a the lightest titans. A warhound weighs in at 4X the heavest battlemechs. It's shielding and the shear amounts of "Ignorance" protecting it. Will allow a few scout titans to shrug off "Battletech damage".

Or to be more accurate 40k titans would be more like walking dropships in terms of armor.

starlight
22-04-2013, 00:57
Comparing the two universes is a futile exercise, because, whereas Battletech at least made attempts at 'realism', 40K has never trod down that road in favour of 'turning it to 11'.

Angry SisterOfBattle Nerd
22-04-2013, 01:11
:eyebrows:

Seriously?

:eyebrows:
I'm seriously poking fun at the idea that two words sounding similar in a language means that the concept they relate to are linked in any way in the mind of the speaker of said language.

'Slave' comes from the French.
In French, slave is esclave, and Slav is Slave. My point works in French too, put not as good to due the two word, even though they share a common origin, evolved differently.

insectum7
22-04-2013, 02:48
Titans in 40k are scaled way different then battlemechs. While a Madcat in all likelyhood outclasses a warhound in offencive capabilities. It cannot compete with the raw brutishness of a the lightest titans. A warhound weighs in at 4X the heavest battlemechs. It's shielding and the shear amounts of "Ignorance" protecting it. Will allow a few scout titans to shrug off "Battletech damage".

Or to be more accurate 40k titans would be more like walking dropships in terms of armor.

Raw brutishness is right, Battletech still uses weapons appropriate for modern-ish tanks and aircraft. Warhammer combines all that power into one giant Volcano Cannon that might be less accurate. . . but if it hits, that mech is ***ed.

bittick
22-04-2013, 03:34
Raw brutishness is right, Battletech still uses weapons appropriate for modern-ish tanks and aircraft. Warhammer combines all that power into one giant Volcano Cannon that might be less accurate. . . but if it hits, that mech is ***ed.

Most of the big titan weapons would really class as artillery in Battletech. It wouldn't be surprising to see a Volcano cannon hitting for 25 or 30 points of Battletech damage. Those are some big guns. But mech weapons aren't anything to sneeze at either. While finding exact descriptions of what weapons do in Battletech is like pulling teeth, every once in a while you find something. One version of the AC-20 (autocannons differ in caliber and rate of fire even within the same class) is listed as firing a 10 round burst of 150mm "hyper-velocity slugs". To me that sounds like something that can drop a void shield.

Stonerhino
22-04-2013, 04:27
Battletech weapons are fine untill you get into the 40k BFG nonsence. Railgun = Gauss rifle as a fair example. Then ACs/missiles are just dependant on rates of fire to get the higher damage outputs. Longtoms and such would just have a blast radius.

Kakapo42
22-04-2013, 04:28
The fortress stations are presumably the way stations revealed in BFG, they've just defined their size. Of course they have gone a bit over the top as do all things in 40k.

No, the Waystations have always been very small outposts (tiny compared to ships and other space stations). These new Fortress stations are something new, and seem to be larger, more heavily armed versions of the security orbitals described in the Tau fleet section of Imperial Armour volume 3.


That being said I keep picturing Fireknife Crisis suits as Elementals. It would not be a bad 40k equivalent, if they could all have Onager gauntlets too. Just having armour bane would be better but there's not an existing system for it.

I've always thought Elementals were closer to Stealthsuits in size, about the same dimensions as an XV25. They certainly look quite similar (to me at least)...

avien
22-04-2013, 07:13
No, the Waystations have always been very small outposts (tiny compared to ships and other space stations). These new Fortress stations are something new, and seem to be larger, more heavily armed versions of the security orbitals described in the Tau fleet section of Imperial Armour volume 3.

If you read the entry for the security orbitals it says they are the way stations.

Been a whole since I read the Taros Campaign BFG lists, completely forgot those were also the way stations.

I'm still inclined to think that the fortress stations are basically a new take on or class of way station. A super über size version if you will.

I suppose if you are going on the basis that the tau can't travel at high FTL speeds then it stands to reason that deep space outposts can't be small and manned due to food shortages etc.. They cant exactly rely on resupply on a regular basis so they need to be self sufficient.

Solution? Big em up...

I think city sized would have been a sufficient scale up to justify the necessary hydroponics, waste treatment & recycling facilities but it's not quite as impressive as continent sized. Australia is the smallest continent, so we can assume they are at least the same square footage.

Of course that all assumes that any thought was given to the implications & limitations of "near light speed" travel. Which I very much doubt given my earlier reservations.

Kakapo42
22-04-2013, 09:54
I suppose if you are going on the basis that the tau can't travel at high FTL speeds then it stands to reason that deep space outposts can't be small and manned due to food shortages etc.. They cant exactly rely on resupply on a regular basis so they need to be self sufficient.

Not necessarily, it depends on the size of the outpost's crew. A deep space outpost could potentially be tiny and still have all the needed supplies and features to sustain it's crew if it's just a handful (1-7) of people living on board it.

Escaflowne_Z
22-04-2013, 21:08
Vat bred Elementals are roughly space marine in physical dimensions. 6 feet to 7 feet tall naked. The Elementals themselves step onto several inches of the "boot", and the shoulder mounted missile pods appear to extend roughly a foot above their helmets. Take an average 6'6" warrior, stick him in the armor, and that should be roughly 8 feet tall. So, about Terminator sized in terms of height. To my mind, they would be as maneuverable as Crisis suits because of the jump jets, armored like a Terminator, and have strength of a Space Marine.

Oh, right. Tau thread. *Saves Battletech discussion for another day*

Triszin The Wrath God
22-04-2013, 23:31
so is the dawn blade a necrontyr weapon? beings appearing and vanishing as quickly as they appeared, wraiths? the planet they went to was actually a tomb world? so maybe the tau are necrontyr then, except they don't have a star that is making them sick.

starlight
23-04-2013, 00:38
Maybe that was one of the ones they blew up...? :shifty:

Mikial
23-04-2013, 00:55
Shas'O Kais gets mentioned in the timeline.

Nice to see GW acknowledging THQ's character creation, apparently he was also a Protégé of Commander Puretide.


Most interesting piece of information for me was the mention of 'Sha'Galudd' the name of a planet of mind controlling worms called the Nagi. Firstly I enjoyed the Stargate reference in the planet name and secondly these mind controlling worms now work closely with Tau Ethereals as advisers. Could they be controlling the Tau empire? OR aiding the Ethereals with their dominion over lesser races/ subjects.

Actually, Naga are an ancient Sandscrit/Hindu myth, so it wasn't really a pure Starcraft reference

Lord-Caerolion
23-04-2013, 01:15
so is the dawn blade a necrontyr weapon? beings appearing and vanishing as quickly as they appeared, wraiths? the planet they went to was actually a tomb world? so maybe the tau are necrontyr then, except they don't have a star that is making them sick.

Well, they can't be Necrons, as the last of the Necron'tyr got killed off when they made the final Necron. Also, there's absolutely nothing linking the two races, other than one guy maybe using a Necron blade. I guess that makes all Callidus Assassins Necrontyr then, given that they all use C'Tan phaseblades.

Inquisitor Engel
23-04-2013, 01:37
so is the dawn blade a necrontyr weapon? beings appearing and vanishing as quickly as they appeared, wraiths? the planet they went to was actually a tomb world? so maybe the tau are necrontyr then, except they don't have a star that is making them sick.

No. There's signficant evidence in Xenology and MANY other places that the Tau evolved on their own to a certain point, and were then uplifted and tampered with by the Eldar.

MajorWesJanson
23-04-2013, 01:43
No. There's signficant evidence in Xenology and MANY other places that the Tau evolved on their own to a certain point, and were then uplifted and tampered with by the Eldar.

Guess the Farseers had an off day then, since Tau did blow up a Maiden world on a case of mistaken identity. Some seer's going to lose their job over suggesting the Tau uplift project...

bittick
23-04-2013, 02:23
so is the dawn blade a necrontyr weapon? beings appearing and vanishing as quickly as they appeared, wraiths? the planet they went to was actually a tomb world? so maybe the tau are necrontyr then, except they don't have a star that is making them sick.

Necron, or Eldar, or maybe Chaos Demon. Or somebody else out there who isn't important enough to get a book. There are a lot of people who can appear and disappear at will.

lordreaven448
23-04-2013, 03:52
Any fluff bits on the Tau's first encounter with Daemons? Or Tau vs. Daemons? The Current Daemon Codex has nothing and I haven't read the Tau dex yet.

DYoung
23-04-2013, 04:34
I can't remember a single mention of Daemons in the new Codex. Closest from memory is Farsight's background.

Polaria
23-04-2013, 06:29
so is the dawn blade a necrontyr weapon? beings appearing and vanishing as quickly as they appeared, wraiths? the planet they went to was actually a tomb world? so maybe the tau are necrontyr then, except they don't have a star that is making them sick.

It is a generally known fact that Inquisition raids Necrontyr ruins (presumably those without fully awakened dynasties guarding them) for C'tan Phaseblades and other bling-bling (like tesseracts) and humans aren't Necrontyr either.



Any fluff bits on the Tau's first encounter with Daemons? Or Tau vs. Daemons? The Current Daemon Codex has nothing and I haven't read the Tau dex yet.

There is generally VERY little about Tau meeting Chaos in any shape or form anywhere in the codex. Its as if they were inhabiting different galaxy altogether. I think the codex writers deliberately avoided the taboo subject of Tau and Chaos because they didn't want to upset Tau fans or Chaos fans.

jtrowell
23-04-2013, 11:09
so is the dawn blade a necrontyr weapon? beings appearing and vanishing as quickly as they appeared, wraiths? the planet they went to was actually a tomb world? so maybe the tau are necrontyr then, except they don't have a star that is making them sick.

That the Dawn Blade is of Necron(tyr) origin is a strong rumour, but this doesn't means that Tau are necrontyr just because they could have happended to find a Tomb World during their expension.

However I rather like the idea, and it could mix well with some of the specifics of their race :

- short lifespan compared to other races (Necrontyr were supposed to be jealous of the Eldar immortality)
- able to invent new technologies at an amazing speed when motivated
- almost no influence to/from the Warp (Necrontyr, despite having mastered almost all others techs, were still findind hard to cope with the Warp)

Of course, there's the fact that Tau were known as a primitive race up to a few thousands years ago, but if you think of them as a degenerate version of Necrontyr, and add some reuplifting by eldars/chaos/necrons/others it could make sense.

-------------------------------------

Some Necron lord have seen a chance to get alive again by growing a new living Necrontyr from some primitive degenerate survivors (or maybe cousins, like if someone tryed to build a new human race starting from monkeys), but the Tau where too primitive and needed to be improved first. It will take a long time, but the necron had the time to wait, all the time needed ...

... or ...

An eldar farseer discovered the primitive Tau, and had a vision that they had the potential to end chaos as we know it, opening a way to end the Slanesh curse on his people. But the Tau needed a slight push if they were to survive the coming millenia, a push that he was able to provide ...

... or ...

Tzeentch has a plan ... Tzeentch has always a plan ....

... or ...

All of the above, just not at the same time ... some immortals just want to see the galaxy burn ... :D

-------------------------------------

I like a good redemption story, and I would very much like to see an "evil" race like the Necrontyr having the potential for a "greater good", too bad that it's just a theory based on nothing of substance ...

El_Machinae
23-04-2013, 12:39
My feel of the Dawn Blade is that it's a Necron blade, too.

Inquisitor Engel
23-04-2013, 13:16
Like I said a few pages back, the internal design documents for the Tau in 2004 outright stated the Dawn Blade was a Chaos artefact and that Arthas Moloch was once home to a Chaos-worshipping race.

That may have changed, but I feel it's unlikely, given the internal irony of a race uplifted to fight Chaos has had one of its greatest warriors corrupted by it, even if ever so slightly.

Lord Damocles
23-04-2013, 17:12
Oh good. The Dawnblade and 'Tau are Necrontyr!' conspiracies again.

As has ever been the case, there is basically no evidence that the Tau are in any way related to the Necrontyr beyond the purely circumstancial.

Kiro
23-04-2013, 19:46
Like I said a few pages back, the internal design documents for the Tau in 2004 outright stated the Dawn Blade was a Chaos artefact and that Arthas Moloch was once home to a Chaos-worshipping race.

Whilst I've no problem with Arthas Moloch being a place of spooky goings-on, I've always thought the Dawnblade looked way too elegant & eldritch to be a Chaos weapon. Not that I buy into the 'Eldar did it!' gag, just saying....



Oh good. The Dawnblade and 'Tau are Necrontyr!' conspiracies again.

As has ever been the case, there is basically no evidence that the Tau are in any way related to the Necrontyr beyond the purely circumstancial.

I never get tired of asking this: do you remember the Deceiver/Tau 'connection'? :D

loveless
23-04-2013, 20:17
I never get tired of asking this: do you remember the Deceiver/Tau 'connection'? :D

What connection is that? This sounds vaguely familiar :p

Kiro
23-04-2013, 20:52
What connection is that? This sounds vaguely familiar :p

Ha! :D

Get ready....

The Deceiver made the Ethereals, right, because look at the gem on his forehead, and look at the gem on theirs; also, the Tau'va is a subliminal means of both praising the Deceiver and spreading worship of him. How? If you look at 'For The Greater Good' and subtract an 'o' you get 'For The Greater God', and what is the Deceiver but a Star God!!?!?! Z0mg!



(I kid you not, someone seriously advocated the above on Warseer. I will always cherish that memory)

Inquisitor Engel
23-04-2013, 21:27
Ha! :D

Get ready....

The Deceiver made the Ethereals, right, because look at the gem on his forehead, and look at the gem on theirs; also, the Tau'va is a subliminal means of both praising the Deceiver and spreading worship of him. How? If you look at 'For The Greater Good' and subtract an 'o' you get 'For The Greater God', and what is the Deceiver but a Star God!!?!?! Z0mg!

(I kid you not, someone seriously advocated the above on Warseer. I will always cherish that memory)

This is the reason Xenology should have been more widely distributed... :shifty: It puts this whole thing to rest pretty solidly.

On the Dawnblade design look - Chaos has many guises and they're not always spikey and decayed. Look at the Emperor's Children or that cult planet in "Descent of Angels." Extremely well maintained and sophisticated looking weapons.

The other compromise (combining my old "It's a Sword of Vaul" theory) is that it is a Sword of Vaul, but due to Vaul and Khaine not existing as warp entities any more is now a teeny-tiny (or perhaps subdued by the Old One construction) link to Khorne, making it both a Chaos and Eldar artifact, which explains why Farsight hasn't grown horns or anything. I admit it's a bit of a jump, but it's certainly more plausible than the blood Necrontyr connection...

Kiro
23-04-2013, 21:53
It's always struck me as Eldar/Other or even, at a stretch, Necron in appearance. I figure if you're going to have a Chaos weapon in a non-Chaos army, it should look well, obviously Chaos-y!


As for trolling my previous post; seems it was a more vocal opinion 'back in the day' that has dwindled to a whisper now, but I've always believed the Tau are the last creations of the Old Ones, which doesn't necessarily invalidate the Eldar origin if you were to imagine them as intermediaries.

The bearded one
23-04-2013, 22:54
I figure if you're going to have a Chaos weapon in a non-Chaos army, it should look well, obviously Chaos-y!

I suppose chaos has a subtle side ;)

bittick
23-04-2013, 23:16
Or... Chaos could take an appearance appropriate to the mortal in question. For Imperials, it's all spiky and gothic looking because, well, that's what humans expect. It is a reflection of their own minds. For Tau, it could look different.

Kiro
23-04-2013, 23:37
I suppose chaos has a subtle side ;)

True, but for appearance's sake it should at least stand out unless there's a damn good fluff explanation otherwise...

jtrowell
24-04-2013, 07:53
This is the reason Xenology should have been more widely distributed... :shifty: It puts this whole thing to rest pretty solidly.

On the Dawnblade design look - Chaos has many guises and they're not always spikey and decayed. Look at the Emperor's Children or that cult planet in "Descent of Angels." Extremely well maintained and sophisticated looking weapons.

The other compromise (combining my old "It's a Sword of Vaul" theory) is that it is a Sword of Vaul, but due to Vaul and Khaine not existing as warp entities any more is now a teeny-tiny (or perhaps subdued by the Old One construction) link to Khorne, making it both a Chaos and Eldar artifact, which explains why Farsight hasn't grown horns or anything. I admit it's a bit of a jump, but it's certainly more plausible than the blood Necrontyr connection...


From what I remember Slaanesh killed/claimed Khaine in 40k, and that's what started the rivality with Khorne. So a sword of Vaul would maybe have more of a link with Slaanesh than Khorne, isn't it ? Or maybe both ? Or maybe in this sword reside the last tiny shard of Khaine essence that wasn't absorbed by Slaanesh or Khorne and is the last unknow hope of rebirth for the Eldar god ...

Note: as with the Necrontyr comparison that I made, I agree that there is no true data supporting such theory, I just like to imagine interesting stories that don't contradict the current fluff.

As far as I know, no solid supported theory exists about the Tau origins (especially the etherals), and the dawn blade was supposed to be a chaos artefact, and might still be one or not, as GWnever officialy published this information and are not against such retconning, especially of the new guys writing the fluff are not even read the original informations and just make a new story to what was an explained hole in the setting from their point of view.

Drasanil
24-04-2013, 08:03
Khaine's essence was never absorbed by Slaanesh. Slaanesh eventually bested him but was depending on the source either to weak to consume him scattering his essence and creating the Avatars, or Khorne showed up and claimed Khaine which resulted Khaine's essence being scattered in the ensuing battle between Khorne and Slaanesh also creating the Avatars.

TheDungen
24-04-2013, 09:55
:eyebrows:

Seriously?

:eyebrows:

Both 'slave' and 'Slav' predate English as a language, having been borrowed from other languages. 'Slav' is the term used to refer to the group of Slavic people due to their common language. 'Slave' comes from the French.

actually the word slave comes from slav. Some culture (cant remember which) who liked taking their slaves from raids on the slavs. Note that the earlier name was the latin servus.

jtrowell
24-04-2013, 10:48
I just realized something about the Demiurg : while there are many minor races mentionned in the new book, I have found not even one about the demiurg.

At first I was under the impression that it was like for the non-warp space travel (and the derelict ship found in a moon starting the whole thing), that is events that are ignored in the codex, but not contradicted and so can still be considered canon when taking the whole sources (all codexes versions plus articles and novels).

However when reading the description of the many ions weapons, they have made clear that they are supposed to be inventions from the Earth Caste.

Wasn't the ion technologie a gift from the Demiurg previously ? If yes then it looks like they are not just being ignored, but actually being retconned completly.

Are we seeing the day when the Demiurgs are squatted ? :(

LexxBomb
24-04-2013, 11:44
Well given the Demiurgs are Squats (well reinterpretation)