PDA

View Full Version : High Elves, 2,000 Points



Forsworn
09-04-2013, 04:44
Ok, I will post the exact points and magic items tomorrow, but I want to get a feel for what people would think of this list for Tournaments and for casual play:

Lords:
- Elf prince. Armor of Caledor, White Sword, Talisman of Loec, Guardian Phoenix

Heroes:
- Mage (lvl 2): High Magic. Starwood Staff, talisman of Protection
- Mage (lvl 2): Shadow/Life/Beasts (not sure which), Seerstaff of Saphery, Seed of Rebirth, Gem of Courage
- BSB: Barded Mount, Dragon Armor. Talisman of Preservation, Lance, Charmed Shield

Core:
- Spear Elves. As many as I can fit in with a magic banner. One big (deep) unit.

Rare:
- 4x Great Eagles (in casual play, I might replace these with a unit of Dragon Princes)

Special:
About an even split between Sword Masters and Phoenix Guard. The Guard would have the Banner of Sorcery.

So, thoughts on using this as a basis for a list? One thing I'd considered was making the BSB a standard one (2+/5+ w/ Great Weapon), and then giving my Lord a 1+ Armor Save, The Talisman of Loec, the Talisman of Preservation, and the Star Lance or Blade of Sea Gold.
What do you guys think?

CaptainFaramir
09-04-2013, 17:28
For tournaments?

Lord is fine, but a Archmage is much more competative. Take Shadows/Life and Book of Hoeth or Robes/Talisman.
If you want a combat lord, put him on an eagle or in a SH bus. If BSB mounted, give him DPs/SH Bus. If on foot, give him Aoc/GP combo. Lord takes Talisman of P and/or Silvered Steel/Vambraces combo if on foot.

Frankly, mounted/eagle Lord (for A/S + ToP) and foot BSB (GP/Aoc) is better.

Mages - if you aren't taking the Archmage (and you really should), then High is good for low casting values, but Life with Seerstaff (Flesh to Stone and Dwellers), or Shadow with Seerstaff (Okkam and Debuff of your choice) is preferred. Beasts on a level 1 scroll/annulian crystal caddy is fine for the sig spell. Ideally? I'd take Life on Archmage with Hoeth. Other may disagree.

As to magic items for Mages, bin everything on the Mages except for (in the selection of your choice): Annulain Crystal, Dispel Scroll, Seerstaff. Bin the ToP on Level 2 - he shouldn't be in a position to need it. Same with seeds. Same with Gem of Courage (you should have BSB re-rolls on 9/10 on most units).

Eagles. Good choice. Use them well.

Core. Spear bunker is good.

Special. White Lions are optimal special choice. PG with BoS = win. Personally, I'd go 21 WLs (7x3), St, Ch, BoDiscpline, Amulet of Light (Ld 9, stubborn, magical, nice), 20 PG bunker (5x4_ for Lord/BSB. Any spare points at your level, take MSU Swordmasters, 7/8 and/or 5 nude Dragon Princes.

Is this helpful?
Would you like to know more?

For friendly play? You list is fine. Ignore everything I say above.

Forsworn
10-04-2013, 15:16
So Core and Rare selections are fine.

Lords/Heroes:
- Archmage with the +1 to dispel staff or Hoeth (if it's allowed)

- Prince: not happening with an archmage at 2k points. If it is casual or greater than 2k points: Talisman of Preservation, 2+ Armor save, Talisman of Loec. . . would you give him the Blade of Sea Gold (the no armor save one, I think it is)? Mounting him removes the ability to take the White Sword, so I don't know what to arm him with. The reason I went with the mounted BSB was so that this guy could go 2+/5++ (using AoC and GP)with the Talisman of Loec and either Sea Gold or The White Sword (giving him some very decent surviviability and killing power), while still retaining a 2+ AS (from regular equipment).

- Mages: ignore saves. Why would you say the +1 to cast is bad? Using High Lore, we essentially get a level 3 at a discount, no?

- BSB: standard build. The reason I mounted him was to be able to get a 2+ armor save and keeping the ability to use the Armor of Caledor on another character if I took it. I am wondering if it would be better to mount the Lord (if I took him) and kept this guy as a standard Elven BSB.

Specials:
- I usually go 20-25 on PG's. Is the extra rank not worth it? Always give them the Banner of Sorcery and the Skeinsliver. I find that balancing the roll for first go, OR getting +2 to that roll, is quite worth it (especially since it is, at most, 1 more special model). The extra magic can really bump a magic phase from average to exceptional, I've always found.

- Why do you think that WL are better than SM? I can see them being much better against shooting. The thing is, in my meta the majority of players forgo shooting or use Warmachines. I find that since the only time when they come into play is straight combat (especially since, the way I play, they are usually in combat on turn 2). In that, isn't the +1 Attack from SM better than the +1S of WL? Just want to understand what I am missing.

- Is giving the DP's their Command so they can have a Potion of Foolhardiness and a Banner of Ellyrion or Swiftness too much? I definitely think they are FAR better than Silver Helms for their points (+7 points for an extra attack, 2++ against Flame/Breath Weapons, +1 WS, +1Ld? I'll take).

General list:
- Would using Dragon Prince units as flankers for two big blocks be viable? Using Spears and PG's to hit the front and hold, while the Princes hit the side and break whatever they are fighting (This is where the extra rank for the PG's may become important, especially after I've wiped a ton of enemy models and possibly broken their steadfast)?
- Large units or MSU?

It has been helpful, but I *would* like to know more, honestly. I am getting back into Fantasy after a decent hiatus of a few years. . .

CaptainFaramir
10-04-2013, 16:15
Lords/Heroes:
- Archmage with the +1 to dispel staff or Hoeth (if it's allowed)

This is fine. +6 to dispel is pretty nice, but I think with an Annulian Crystal on one of your mages, +5 is fine! For 30 points you could get a couple of fun items (and or some protection!)


Prince: SNIP.

A really good mounted build (with acknowledgements to Seredain at Ulthuan.net) is a Lord carrying the Ogre Blade. Yes, it is expensive, but at -4A/S it's almost as good as Sea Gold/White Sword and you can combine it with barded sheet/DA/Sh and Helm of Fortune for 1+ re-rollable. Combine with Other Tricksters Shard and challenge everything (including Sphinxs!). Re-rollable 3+, 2+ to Wound, -4 AS, re-roll wards. Tasty? All for 286 points. At the 2400 points level you can take him AND an Archmage.


BSB /snip/ ...I am wondering if it would be better to mount the Lord (if I took him) and kept this guy as a standard Elven BSB.

Yes it would. Unless essential, BSB shouldn't see combat. Hide him away and re-roll those lovely Ld9/10s until the cows come home. DO NOT GIVE HIM ToL. Why would you want to take the second most useful model in the army down to 1 wound? The only place for LoeC is on a Swordmaster Kamikaze!


Mages: ignore saves. Why would you say the +1 to cast is bad? Using High Lore, we essentially get a level 3 at a discount, no?

What you say is true. However, I'm just sugesting "better" builds. Frankly, you shouldn't be relying on the +1/+2/+3 to cast. It is a nice bonus but you should be chucking enough dice to get 80-90% chance of success. And you've got an archmage - with +4. There's your caster. The second mage is there to carry arcane items and cast a couple of spells if your archmage loses concentration/dies. As to items he could carry - unless I know my opponent is taking Teclis or Book of Hoeth and/or is a Dwarf, I take Annulian Crystal. It is useful in every magic phase that doesn't involve Irrisitable Force.


Specials:
- I usually go 20-25 on PG's. Is the extra rank not worth it? Always give them the Banner of Sorcery and the Skeinsliver. I find that balancing the roll for first go, OR getting +2 to that roll, is quite worth it (especially since it is, at most, 1 more special model). The extra magic can really bump a magic phase from average to exceptional, I've always found..

This is all good. I only went 20 b/c I can spend the points on White Lions. The more PGs you have on the field the more VPs you are denying your enemy. In 2010/1 some of the fiercest builds at 2000 points were a bunker of 40 PGs. With the 50% for half VPs gone, killing 40PGS was (and remains) a *********** nightmare! That said it isn't hugely fun to sit your enormous point sink against the base line and cast dwellers 6 times.

Banner of Sorcery is auto-take. If you've got 25 points, SK is great. Make sure you don't over-do your drops/take scouts and enjoy the +2.


Why do you think that WL are better than SM? I can see them being much better against shooting. The thing is, in my meta the majority of players forgo shooting or use Warmachines. I find that since the only time when they come into play is straight combat (especially since, the way I play, they are usually in combat on turn 2). In that, isn't the +1 Attack from SM better than the +1S of WL? Just want to understand what I am missing.

There are threads all over the internet on this. In brief? If you're just going straight combat, what are you combatting against? Is it monsters? Take WLs? Is it High Armour Save? Take WLs? Is it Skaven? Take SM but why the **** are you charging your best combat unit into his LD9 steadfast unit? Go for the Hellpit. With WLs.

Basically, WLs are your hammer AND your anvil. They are stubborn. With Banner of D - they are stubborn on Ld9. With a re-roll from that BSB that isn't seeing combat I hope. That means they can lose and only run away in like 1 time in 36. If they lose. The Swordmasters will cut. ****. up. They will also die in droves and if they lose a combat they will probably run away.

Summary? It 2000 points take a big unit of PG and/or a big unit of WLs. If you've got points left over, take some small units of SM (or a big one!) to countercharge. That said, you know what is better than SMs at countercharging?


Is giving the DP's their Command so they can have a Potion of Foolhardiness and a Banner of Ellyrion or Swiftness too much? I definitely think they are FAR better than Silver Helms for their points (+7 points for an extra attack, 2++ against Flame/Breath Weapons, +1 WS, +1Ld? I'll take).

Yes they are. But you've only got 1000 points to spend on special, so... I'd prefer the DP's naked. The extra attack from the potion isn't worth it. Musician not really worth it either. Banner of Swiftness is good though. If you've got the points, feel free. That said, these guys should be counter-charging, which probably makes the extra inch unnecessary... swing/roundabouts.


General list:
- Would using Dragon Prince units as flankers for two big blocks be viable? Using Spears and PG's to hit the front and hold, while the Princes hit the side and break whatever they are fighting (This is where the extra rank for the PG's may become important, especially after I've wiped a ton of enemy models and possibly broken their steadfast)?

Damn. Should have read this first. Yes - this is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Flanker. Anvil. Anvil. Flanker = lovely. Couple of Eagles to add CR/harry/re-redirect. Hmm - tasty tasty victory.


- Large units or MSU?

Frankly its go big or go home. That either means big UNITS or a big NUMBER of units. Personally, I'd go BIG BLOCK (400 points) of Spears (with a 10 man archer unit to fill up core), BIG block of WL and BIG block of PG and a whole bunch of eagles. However, my current list looks a bit like this:

10 Archers
10 Archers
25 Spearelves
24 White Lions
7 SMs
7 SMs
7 SMs
5 DPs
2 x chariot
4 x Eagles

That's a lot of little units for anyone to deal with and (archers aside) they all pack a punch. And if you put down the eagles, then the archers, then the chariots, you've put down eight units before revealing where your "good" stuff (DPs, WLs, SMs) are going.

Basically?

Play three games. In one go ALL out on WLs and PG. In the second take as many units as you can. In the third play the way you really want to. Learn, develop, enjoy.



It has been helpful, but I *would* like to know more, honestly. I am getting back into Fantasy after a decent hiatus of a few years. . .

Welcome back. The hobby's changed a bit. Some things are good now. Some things that were good aren't. High Elves are getting a new book in May so all this advice will soon be out of date. But enjoy it now and just play some Warhammer!

Morax
10-04-2013, 19:39
So Core and Rare selections are fine.

Lords/Heroes:
- Archmage with the +1 to dispel staff or Hoeth (if it's allowed)

Hoeth or the silver wand is a better choice. With magic phases, it's all about having the right spells at the right time. Don't want to get stuck missing the 1-2 spells you really really need in a lore.

- Prince: not happening with an archmage at 2k points. If it is casual or greater than 2k points: Talisman of Preservation, 2+ Armor save, Talisman of Loec. . . would you give him the Blade of Sea Gold (the no armor save one, I think it is)? Mounting him removes the ability to take the White Sword, so I don't know what to arm him with. The reason I went with the mounted BSB was so that this guy could go 2+/5++ (using AoC and GP)with the Talisman of Loec and either Sea Gold or The White Sword (giving him some very decent surviviability and killing power), while still retaining a 2+ AS (from regular equipment).

Need to give your prince or Hero some offensive punch? Give them a great weapon. Can't get much more effective than that and there is no better way to go about it for the points. Want some magical attacks to take out ethereals? Give the swordmaster unit champ the Talisman of Light. Nothing beats a whole unit of magical attacks for killing ethereals.

- Mages: ignore saves. Why would you say the +1 to cast is bad? Using High Lore, we essentially get a level 3 at a discount, no?

Mage's need to be a toolbox. Ya reach in and take the right tool for the job at hand. The +1 to cast isn't as effective as the seer staff at that. Nothing is on a hero level mage. When you already have a lord and a hero mage, the third is just a waste of points as you should already have your bases covered. The only other way I'd take a hero mage is level 2 with the staff of sorcery and high magic. +4 to dispell and drain magic makes for some potent and cheap magic defense.

- BSB: standard build. The reason I mounted him was to be able to get a 2+ armor save and keeping the ability to use the Armor of Caledor on another character if I took it. I am wondering if it would be better to mount the Lord (if I took him) and kept this guy as a standard Elven BSB.

Most people like BSB's, I don't find I need them in a High Elf list.

Specials:
- I usually go 20-25 on PG's. Is the extra rank not worth it? Always give them the Banner of Sorcery and the Skeinsliver. I find that balancing the roll for first go, OR getting +2 to that roll, is quite worth it (especially since it is, at most, 1 more special model). The extra magic can really bump a magic phase from average to exceptional, I've always found.

Exactly how you should build them. If you have the extra points, the extra rank is a nice add on.

- Why do you think that WL are better than SM? I can see them being much better against shooting. The thing is, in my meta the majority of players forgo shooting or use Warmachines. I find that since the only time when they come into play is straight combat (especially since, the way I play, they are usually in combat on turn 2). In that, isn't the +1 Attack from SM better than the +1S of WL? Just want to understand what I am missing.

Yes the White Lions have stubborn, but when are your High Elven specials losing fights? That sounds horribly wrong. My arguement against White Lions vs Swordmasters is, would you rather lose fights and stay or win fights and, well...win.... I'll take the Swordmasters any day of

- Is giving the DP's their Command so they can have a Potion of Foolhardiness and a Banner of Ellyrion or Swiftness too much? I definitely think they are FAR better than Silver Helms for their points (+7 points for an extra attack, 2++ against Flame/Breath Weapons, +1 WS, +1Ld? I'll take).

They are far better for their points but even then they aren't that great. I'd rather have two more swordmasters for every dragonprince.

General list:
- Would using Dragon Prince units as flankers for two big blocks be viable? Using Spears and PG's to hit the front and hold, while the Princes hit the side and break whatever they are fighting (This is where the extra rank for the PG's may become important, especially after I've wiped a ton of enemy models and possibly broken their steadfast)?
- Large units or MSU?

Viable? Sure if your opponent falls for it. Functional? Less so. Large units works better than MSU unless your opponents don't know how to handle MSU.

It has been helpful, but I *would* like to know more, honestly. I am getting back into Fantasy after a decent hiatus of a few years. . .

Honestly you are looking at the High Elves just the way you should to have success with the current book. Seeing as that book is about to change, you may want to rethink getting a handle on the current book....

Moss
11-04-2013, 00:02
I think you're seriously underestimating how much your characters are costing you. I'd be willing to bet that your listed heroes will come out to more than 500pts. You can probably save points and increase effectiveness by taking a level 4 instead of two level 2s.

Bigman
13-04-2013, 10:59
Be aware that a new High Elf book is out at the end of April/beginning of May.

theJ
16-04-2013, 20:51
Ok, I will post the exact points and magic items tomorrow, but I want to get a feel for what people would think of this list for Tournaments and for casual play:
I can't promise you a tournament worthy list, but I'll give some comments on your choices. I'll even give you colourcoded priority indicators :)



- Elf prince. Armor of Caledor, White Sword, Talisman of Loec, Guardian Phoenix

Talisman of Loec? Keep in mind you've only got three wounds to give, and that thing does not allow for saves. Other than that, The White Sword is kinda overkill - it only gives Killing Blow over a standard Great Weapon. If mundane equipment ain't to your liking, the Foe Bane or the more expensive Sword of Hoeth would likely be better options. Priority: low
The main downside of this option is that it takes the slot away from the tooled-up Archmage, who together with Teclis is pretty much the sole reason why High Elves are considered a strong army. It sucks, but them's the cards we've been given. Priority: high


- Mage (lvl 2): High Magic. Starwood Staff, talisman of Protection
These items are largely unnecessary. A mage should never be in a situation where a ward save would be necessary, and in the rare situations when they are, it's not going to be enough to save them. +1 to casting is nice, but hardly worth the points asked for. I'd look to the low cost items; Staff of Solidity, Jewel of the Dusk, and Tricksters Pendant are all good items, while Silver Wand, Seerstaff and Annulian Crystal are incredible. priority: low

- Mage (lvl 2): Shadow/Life/Beasts (not sure which), Seerstaff of Saphery, Seed of Rebirth, Gem of Courage
As with the other mage, I'd skip the seed and gem. Seerstaff is great, though. Also, for lores, consider where the mage will be deployed. Life and Beasts are both great choices when used on the frontlines(such as your giant spear block), but pointless if hiding in the backfield. Further, Life is pretty hard to get to work properly unless you get to take several spells from it(I.E. have it on a high level mage). priority: low

- BSB: Barded Mount, Dragon Armor. Talisman of Preservation, Lance, Charmed Shield
Your battle standard bearer is one of the most important models in the army. This is a model that must be kept alive at all costs, and preferably kept in a central spot in the army. Since you do not have a cavalry unit for him/her to hide in, I'd advice deploying this one on foot. Standard equipment is Armour of Caledor and Guardian Phoenix. This is done for good reason - the survival of the battle standard is THAT important. priority: high



- Spear Elves. As many as I can fit in with a magic banner. One big (deep) unit.
Sounds good. Keep in mind that Spearmen benefit A LOT from magical support. More than most of our units. I'd advice sticking both the standard bearer and at least one mage in here(beasts being a great choice. The signature spell makes a ton of difference on these guys). priority: low



- 4x Great Eagles (in casual play, I might replace these with a unit of Dragon Princes)
You'll get no complaints from me. priority: low



About an even split between Sword Masters and Phoenix Guard. The Guard would have the Banner of Sorcery.
Hard to comment on without more information, but I'll give it a shot.
Phoenix Guard are an incredible unit and the only true anvil in the whole list. A solid unit of these can hold up most things for ages. Keep in mind that they are not stubborn, however. A common mistake is taking only a bare minimum and then getting really surprised when they run off the board. You don't need a massive horde, but I'd advice at least 15-20. priority: medium
Sword Masters are a great unit... if used right. These guys should not be deployed as a horde - they're far too squishy and costly to be worth it. Rather, use small units, apply them to your opponents flanks and let the multiple high strength attacks do the talking. units of 6/7 or 12/14 are great. If you want a lot of them, split them up into several units. Your main problem will be that they fulfill largely the same role as the Great Eagles. If you want a massive hard hitting hammer, a horde of White Lions is the superior choice. priority: medium



What do you guys think?
I think you should be careful about the advice we give. Don't get me wrong, we all want to help, but we do have a tendency of simplify our advice to "this is the one list that works, don't you dare try anything else". If you're going to a tournament, that kinda stuff might prove necessary, but for casual play, you should probably not listen too much to what we say.
Also, what Bigman said; two and a half week from now, everything that has been said here should be pretty much pointless :p