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Grndhog89
10-04-2013, 12:51
So like the title says I am interested about humanity during the DAoT. Specifically was there one empire or multiple? What kind of tech did they employ. Humanity at that time sounds as though their tech was on par with (or near) Eldar tech (minus the psychic part).

In addition to all of this does anyone have more information on the AIs rising up against their human creators during that time? I'd like to imagine the uprising was Terminator style except in space. :D

Lastly, the golden age (most of the DAoT) sounded like a cool time to live and sounded more proper sci-fi. Opinion on that?

A Shadow
11-04-2013, 00:14
My understanding is that it was one large empire, but the tech was not on par with Eldar. More like better versions of current tech.

Victrix
11-04-2013, 00:32
So like the title says I am interested about humanity during the DAoT. Specifically was there one empire or multiple? What kind of tech did they employ. Humanity at that time sounds as though their tech was on par with (or near) Eldar tech (minus the psychic part).

One empire, to my knowledge. This is why the majority of worlds fell once they were cut off. Most were reliant on other planets, as a part of a central empire. One long supply chain. You break the chain, you break what it's holding together.

I agree that tech was equivalent or better than the Eldar. I recall a previous debate over whether Eldar technology "counts" due to its heavy reliance on the warp or psyker traits, but let's look at other examples:
Large-scale use of anti-grav.
Titans with fluid movements, more powerful weapons.
That whole "Standard Template Construct" thing.
Manipulation of psyker genes - creating the Navigators. Who are very different from Psykers in general, mind you.
Men of Iron/Stone, etc.
Nanotechnology [Blood Tide]
"Kill Ships"
Vortex Weapons / Void Shields
Teleporters.
Archaeotech.



In addition to all of this does anyone have more information on the AIs rising up against their human creators during that time? I'd like to imagine the uprising was Terminator style except in space. :D

We're still pretty uncertain what the "Men" were, though it's believed that the Men of Iron were AI Terminator-style constructs. Ibram Gaunt found an STC that could make them, though it was corrupted by Chaos.



Lastly, the golden age (most of the DAoT) sounded like a cool time to live and sounded more proper sci-fi. Opinion on that?

I agree.

Malitov
11-04-2013, 03:50
If the last few pages of The Priests of Mars is anything to go by then the DaoT humans were ridiculously advanced.

Grndhog89
11-04-2013, 03:59
I imagine that DAoT humans were more akin to the humans in Mass Effect. I almost wish GW would do a spin-off about the galaxy during the DAoT. Be like a legit sci-fi game/range.

SpaceTiger
11-04-2013, 11:05
Still stuck at my uncles house which means I still have internet access! Good news for me :)! Though I may be going back home tomorrow which means I may once more be away from the glorious net :cries:.

Anyway, to the OP and people of this thread, check out this thread of mine: DAoT humanity tech source thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?368913-DAoT-humanity-tech-source-thread)

It shows the fates of 2 DAoT worlds and the technology of DAoT humanity.


Also, from the Deathwatch rpg core rulebook pg 290

15th to 18th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
Mankind begins to colonise the stars using sub-light spacecraft. At first only nearby systems can be
reached and the colonies must survive as independent states since they are separated from Earth by up
to ten generations of travel.

18th to 22nd Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The invention of the warp drive accelerates colonisation of the galaxy. Federations and empires are
founded. The first aliens are encountered and the first Alien Wars are fought. The first human psykers
are scientifically proven to exist and begin to appear throughout the human worlds.

22nd to 25th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The first Navigators are born, allowing human spaceships to make even longer, quicker warp jumps.
Mankind enters a golden age of enlightenment as scientific and technological progress accelerates.
Human worlds unite and non-aggression pacts are secured with dozens of alien races.


And from the Warhammer 40k 6th edition core rulebook pg 196:

Mankind is not the only race to walk among the stars. Since
they first traveled beyond their own star system, in the early
days of the Age of Technology, Mankind has encountered alien
races, most of which have proven hostile. While some xenos
exist only on a single planet, other civilisations might occupy a
star system and there are a few that are widely spread across the
. great void of the galaxy. It has never been in Man's nature to
share his worlds with aliens, and bloodshed has ever formed the
foundation of empire. Sometimes, humans and aliens are forced
to fight over inhabitable planets or vital resources at other
times, humans must do battle with the most dangerous types
of xenos, whose only aim is to eradicate humanity wherever
their paths cross.

Down the ages, there have been innumerable
wars, planet-wide battles of annihilation and long campaigns
of genocide that have stretched over vast distances and eras.
Despite this eternal pressure and with a staggering cost of lives
and material, Mankind has expanded their realm one planet at a
time. Even now, however, the Imperium is beset on all sides by
aliens determined to enslave, subvert or destroy humanity.




Many planets were usurped
from xenos races long ago, some during the initial colonisations
of the Age of Technology, and now the aliens'very existence
on such worlds has been forgotten, their ancient histories
lost to the relentless march of time. This explains why great
monuments of inhuman design are occasionally unearthed,
strange technologies found buried beneath levels of stone and
metal, crushed down beneath long ages of human expanse.

Has anyone noticed that the Emp was trying to make humanity somewhat the way it used to be during the DAoT era when he launched the GC? I mean if we go with what has been said about DAoT humanity, apparently DAoT humanity were atheists or didn't care about gods or religion or at the very least they were marginal and instead was focused on science and logic and all that.

Horus38
11-04-2013, 12:26
My understanding is that it was one large empire, but the tech was not on par with Eldar. More like better versions of current tech.

I'd agree with it not being like Eldar tech, but the tech level was exponentially higher. A prime example was the common use of the Standard Template Constructs (STC's). In present times the Mechanicum goes nuts for dribbles and scraps of any STC knowledge.

Poseidal
11-04-2013, 14:53
Dark Age of Technology was more of the view of technology than the technical prowess of it.

What they use M41 is what they had in the Dark Age (they are literally the same designs), but they understand it less well and don't improve on them or make new ones. DAOT wasn't more powerful (they were dis-unified too), but technology was better understood and spread out better, like the Tau.

SpaceTiger
11-04-2013, 14:55
Dark Age of Technology was more of the view of technology than the technical prowess of it.

What they use M41 is what they had in the Dark Age (they are literally the same designs), but they understand it less well and don't improve on them or make new ones. DAOT wasn't more powerful (they were dis-unified too), but technology was better understood and spread out better, like the Tau.Did you even read my thread link I posted?

The bearded one
11-04-2013, 15:04
Has anyone noticed that the Emp was trying to make humanity somewhat the way it used to be during the DAoT era when he launched the GC? I mean if we go with what has been said about DAoT humanity, apparently DAoT humanity were atheists or didn't care about gods or religion or at the very least they were marginal and instead was focused on science and logic and all that.

It is noted here and there that science became God, apparently.

SpaceTiger
11-04-2013, 15:09
It is noted here and there that science became God, apparently.
yeah, but I don't think that means that DAoT humanity prayed to science or anything like that. I see it as them being utterly atheist or believing more in science, reason and logic rather than faith and religion, etc.

Kebert Xela
11-04-2013, 18:52
Did they still interact with machine spirits during the DAoT? Or was that a post Emp thing? If they did it seems a bit like praying to science to me

randian
11-04-2013, 23:55
What they use M41 is what they had in the Dark Age (they are literally the same designs)
What they have in M41 is far less advanced. I recall a Primarch quote regarding some planet-busting superweapon to the effect of "how powerful were their enemies if they required such terrible weapons to subdue them?".

SpaceTiger
12-04-2013, 00:07
Did they still interact with machine spirits during the DAoT? Or was that a post Emp thing? If they did it seems a bit like praying to science to meRead the thread i've linked. Anyway, the machine spirit thing came about during the Age of Strife. Also, the machine spirit actually exists for the higher tech.


What they have in M41 is far less advanced. I recall a Primarch quote regarding some planet-busting superweapon to the effect of "how powerful were their enemies if they required such terrible weapons to subdue them?".Also, Supernova inducing weapons.

carlisimo
12-04-2013, 01:27
Did they still interact with machine spirits during the DAoT? Or was that a post Emp thing? If they did it seems a bit like praying to science to me

That seems like something that developed during or after the 31st millennium. During the Dark Age of Technology things worked, like the STC that every colony depended on, and no one thought of it as a miracle, just as a machine doing what it was designed to do. All of that is viewed as magic in the 41st millennium because nobody understands the underlying principles of science and engineering.

Poseidal
12-04-2013, 10:05
What they have in M41 is far less advanced. I recall a Primarch quote regarding some planet-busting superweapon to the effect of "how powerful were their enemies if they required such terrible weapons to subdue them?".

No, they only have what they've found. It isn't really a case of 'more advanced' because they only re-use what they can find. If they found a DAOT superweapon, it would then soon become current technology as soon as they find the way to replicate and use it. This goes all the way down to basic Rhinos (actually they're not so basic) to the more esoteric stuff. What wins is the practical generally, which is why they get the (almost miraculously) reliable things from the Dark Age rather than the more powerful but less reliable and more prone to the ravages of time designs they might have.

Advanced isn't an easy thing to quantify though. But what the current Imperium does is use old stuff; the old stuff isn't more 'advanced' than what they use now, because it's the same design and the same thing.

There are some DAOT things that are better, but they would have been esoteric and uncommon even back then: if they were common, the STCs would be dug up more often/sooner and got widespread use in the Imperium.

The most impressive thing about Imperial (and other elder races like Eldar) technology is the longevity and how reliable it is to reach that longevity. Both have war machines in service that are probably older than the entire history of the Tau Empire.

Planet busting isn't that hard to do in 40k. Pretty much any Imperial capital ship can do it.

Eldar (at least pre-fall, possibly even now their Mad-Max current state) and Necron tech is also better even than the highest peak humanity got to.

titilititi
12-04-2013, 11:56
Give a riffle to a caveman, he will beat you with its butt. However, that caveman had to deal succesfully with sabre-toothed tigers, mammoths, etc..., a way a today city dweller would be totally unable to do.
It's the same for the technologies of the Dark Age. 40k Imperium is the same as that caveman : it's use of technology is a nonsense, but it has survived to the passage of milleniums and didn't fell (yet) because of Chaos...

SpaceTiger
12-04-2013, 12:23
No, they only have what they've found. It isn't really a case of 'more advanced' because they only re-use what they can find. If they found a DAOT superweapon, it would then soon become current technology as soon as they find the way to replicate and use it. This goes all the way down to basic Rhinos (actually they're not so basic) to the more esoteric stuff. What wins is the practical generally, which is why they get the (almost miraculously) reliable things from the Dark Age rather than the more powerful but less reliable and more prone to the ravages of time designs they might have.

Advanced isn't an easy thing to quantify though. But what the current Imperium does is use old stuff; the old stuff isn't more 'advanced' than what they use now, because it's the same design and the same thing.

There are some DAOT things that are better, but they would have been esoteric and uncommon even back then: if they were common, the STCs would be dug up more often/sooner and got widespread use in the Imperium.

The most impressive thing about Imperial (and other elder races like Eldar) technology is the longevity and how reliable it is to reach that longevity. Both have war machines in service that are probably older than the entire history of the Tau Empire.

Planet busting isn't that hard to do in 40k. Pretty much any Imperial capital ship can do it.

Eldar (at least pre-fall, possibly even now their Mad-Max current state) and Necron tech is also better even than the highest peak humanity got to.
Did you even read the link I posted in this thread?

A lot of DAoT worlds burned. And the STC was for colonies to build themselves up, I doubt it contains the truly awesome power of DAoT human tech.

titilititi
12-04-2013, 12:44
Terra is one of those DAoT worlds, isn't it? (in fact most of the Solar System's luminaries). Imperium just have to dig a little in its heart to find those overkill items, but nothing comes.
As it was the main Horus Heresy's battlefields, lots of those technologies shall have been destroyed then...
But well, even then, anything that remains there can be compared to an Eldar bright lance!

Poseidal
12-04-2013, 19:26
Every Hive world is DAOT. They outdate the Imperium, and have years of stuff buried underneath them.

Yodhrin
12-04-2013, 19:48
Dark Age of Technology was more of the view of technology than the technical prowess of it.

What they use M41 is what they had in the Dark Age (they are literally the same designs), but they understand it less well and don't improve on them or make new ones. DAOT wasn't more powerful (they were dis-unified too), but technology was better understood and spread out better, like the Tau.

That's not strictly accurate, what they have in 40K are fragments of a system designed to create any technology a colonist could need regardless of tech level or local materials; for all the Imperium knows, half their MBT designs could have been intended as agricultural tractors, since often they piece together designs from multiple different STC sources all of which are partially complete. When you consider some of the examples of Dark Age tech that show up in 40K fiction, I suspect that DAoT humanity was as far beyond Imperial humanity as they are beyond us.

Poseidal
12-04-2013, 20:26
The Russ, Rhino, the Speeders, Land Raiders and so on are clearly machines of war; they do not resemble tractors. They were used by colonists who would be going to the edge of civilisation, who were stated to be assailed by Xenos. Therefore the STCs are what humanity used to protect the colonists from (likely) Orks.

Drakenore
13-04-2013, 00:38
Long time lurker here. I have a quick question about the DAoT.
If the Eldar were a galactic spanning empire that resembles the Dark Eldar in terms of debauchery, cruelty and tyranny how did the Human Empire of the time expand as far as it did?

JWhex
13-04-2013, 01:57
Long time lurker here. I have a quick question about the DAoT.
If the Eldar were a galactic spanning empire that resembles the Dark Eldar in terms of debauchery, cruelty and tyranny how did the Human Empire of the time expand as far as it did?

Perhaps humans had the technology to defend themselves? The Eldar were very inward looking at the time and in decline. Humans have a higher reproductive rate than Eldar. The Eldar may have spanned the galaxy but the volume of the galaxy is quite large. To make this point consider that current models expect the Milky Way to collide with Andromeda eventually but no two stars from those galaxies are likely to physically collide with one another.

So the eldar or IoM can span the galaxy but they dont fill it up in any meaningful way

Drakenore
13-04-2013, 02:09
Perhaps humans had the technology to defend themselves? The Eldar were very inward looking at the time and in decline. Humans have a higher reproductive rate than Eldar. The Eldar may have spanned the galaxy but the volume of the galaxy is quite large. To make this point consider that current models expect the Milky Way to collide with Andromeda eventually but no two stars from those galaxies are likely to physically collide with one another.

So the eldar or IoM can span the galaxy but they dont fill it up in any meaningful way

The current Eldar are still arrogant. I can imagine how the pre-fall Eldar would react if a "lesser" species showed up and started building an empire.
I agree that the decline of the Eldar and minor warp storms that had begun to pop up during the DAoT probably played a big part in the human empire from being noticed too much.

Poseidal
13-04-2013, 09:10
The Eldar weren't the cruel dark Eldar for that long. They let them live for most of the time; and besides, the fragmented DAOT humans were still much smaller than they were, so once they became crueller the small fry humanity were beneath their concern.

There was never a pre-Imperium DAOT empire too; DAOT humanity was fragmented but free (which is possibly why they had much better tech gains back then). The closest is the federation they had in the really early days, which would be Tau Empire sized at most.

El_Machinae
13-04-2013, 09:33
In fact, while the galaxy is big, the number of Terran-compatible worlds would not be. There would still be direct competition for the awesome planets, but the Eldar would already be there. So, Humanity would have to be space-based.

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 11:48
There was never a pre-Imperium DAOT empire too; DAOT humanity was fragmented but free (which is possibly why they had much better tech gains back then). The closest is the federation they had in the really early days, which would be Tau Empire sized at most.Why do i even bother?! I posted quotes and info directly from official fluff and no one pays any attention whatsoever *shakes head*


Long time lurker here. I have a quick question about the DAoT.
If the Eldar were a galactic spanning empire that resembles the Dark Eldar in terms of debauchery, cruelty and tyranny how did the Human Empire of the time expand as far as it did?Here:
168698
Read it very clearly. The Eldar had already started falling to debauchery around the same time humanity developed the Warp drive. I propose that the Eldar simply didn't give a **** what was going on in the galaxy cause they were too busy fapping.

Also, DAoT humanity colonized worlds across the galaxy.

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 11:52
In fact, while the galaxy is big, the number of Terran-compatible worlds would not be. There would still be direct competition for the awesome planets, but the Eldar would already be there. So, Humanity would have to be space-based.
:rolleyes:

Still stuck at my uncles house which means I still have internet access! Good news for me :)! Though I may be going back home tomorrow which means I may once more be away from the glorious net :cries:.

Anyway, to the OP and people of this thread, check out this thread of mine: DAoT humanity tech source thread (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?368913-DAoT-humanity-tech-source-thread)

It shows the fates of 2 DAoT worlds and the technology of DAoT humanity.


Also, from the Deathwatch rpg core rulebook pg 290

15th to 18th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
Mankind begins to colonise the stars using sub-light spacecraft. At first only nearby systems can be
reached and the colonies must survive as independent states since they are separated from Earth by up
to ten generations of travel.

18th to 22nd Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The invention of the warp drive accelerates colonisation of the galaxy. Federations and empires are
founded. The first aliens are encountered and the first Alien Wars are fought. The first human psykers
are scientifically proven to exist and begin to appear throughout the human worlds.

22nd to 25th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The first Navigators are born, allowing human spaceships to make even longer, quicker warp jumps.
Mankind enters a golden age of enlightenment as scientific and technological progress accelerates.
Human worlds unite and non-aggression pacts are secured with dozens of alien races.


And from the Warhammer 40k 6th edition core rulebook pg 196:

Mankind is not the only race to walk among the stars. Since
they first traveled beyond their own star system, in the early
days of the Age of Technology, Mankind has encountered alien
races, most of which have proven hostile. While some xenos
exist only on a single planet, other civilisations might occupy a
star system and there are a few that are widely spread across the
. great void of the galaxy. It has never been in Man's nature to
share his worlds with aliens, and bloodshed has ever formed the
foundation of empire. Sometimes, humans and aliens are forced
to fight over inhabitable planets or vital resources at other
times, humans must do battle with the most dangerous types
of xenos, whose only aim is to eradicate humanity wherever
their paths cross.

Down the ages, there have been innumerable
wars, planet-wide battles of annihilation and long campaigns
of genocide that have stretched over vast distances and eras.
Despite this eternal pressure and with a staggering cost of lives
and material, Mankind has expanded their realm one planet at a
time. Even now, however, the Imperium is beset on all sides by
aliens determined to enslave, subvert or destroy humanity.



Many planets were usurped
from xenos races long ago, some during the initial colonisations
of the Age of Technology, and now the aliens'very existence
on such worlds has been forgotten, their ancient histories
lost to the relentless march of time. This explains why great
monuments of inhuman design are occasionally unearthed,
strange technologies found buried beneath levels of stone and
metal, crushed down beneath long ages of human expanse.

Has anyone noticed that the Emp was trying to make humanity somewhat the way it used to be during the DAoT era when he launched the GC? I mean if we go with what has been said about DAoT humanity, apparently DAoT humanity were atheists or didn't care about gods or religion or at the very least they were marginal and instead was focused on science and logic and all that.

Poseidal
13-04-2013, 12:23
The general interpretation on the Emperor is he viewed the DAOT era as a failure as it led up to and could not cope with the age of strife as at that time he was still working in the shadows. He had a complete change of heart and during the Age of Strife decided to conquer Earth and begin a proper unification from there, for the first time ever.

The Eldar were at their height at around the same time as the DAOT (15-25m) as the twilight cults only began to form and weren't widespread, and the worship of the old Eldar gods waned near the end of that period, or the end of around 24m. Before this, they probably even had a NAP with the Eldar, which is an unofficial source of a lot of DAOT technology: note how of all the races, their technology lines of Laser, Plasma and Melta (among others) resemble the Eldar the most, not only in practice but evident in appearance too.

The depravity that led to the fall only became widespread after 25m, as stated in the Dark Eldar timeline posted; they were not in the majority until then, and mostly were a minority who lived in the webway, away from the eyes of the main Eldar councils near the beginning.

The Eldar stopping the worship of the old gods is probably what ended the Dark Age of Technology and began the Age of Strife due to the warp storms beginning to heat up as a direct consequence of the large change of direction in the galaxy's most vital race, further reinforcing the utter helplessness of humanity as their golden age ended due to something completely unrelated and uncaring to them.

It's around 5000 years later the first Craftworlds emerge.

And also, the great Crusade where the Emperor set out to finally unite humanity, and replace the Eldar as the galaxy's most vital race. It did not happen before, during the DAOT but afterwards; after the age of strife.

During the time of the DAOT (15m - 25m) humanity was great, but Eldar were greater. The larger part of the fall hadn't begun to hit critical mass (near 25m, when the Age of Strife began). This is what the timelime quotes from the rulebooks say.

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 12:48
The general interpretation on the Emperor is he viewed the DAOT era as a failure as it led up to and could not cope with the age of strifeWhere is it said that the Emp viewed the DAoT era as a failure?


as at that time he was still working in the shadows.And? If one listens to the audio drama "The Sigillite" one gets the impression that the Emp wants humanity to stand on its own two feet.


He had a complete change of heart and during the Age of Strife decided to conquer Earth and begin a proper unification from there, for the first time ever.yes, cause apparently humanity was in danger of extinction if I've heard right.



The Eldar were at their height at around the same time as the DAOT (15-25m) as the twilight cults only began to form and weren't widespread, and the worship of the old Eldar gods waned near the end of that period, or the end of around 24m.The Cults however did exist and were spreading. Also, the Eldar I expect have long since stopped caring about what goes on in the greater galaxy.



Before this, they probably even had a NAP with the Eldar, which is an unofficial source of a lot of DAOT technology: note how of all the races, their technology lines of Laser, Plasma and Melta (among others) resemble the Eldar the most, not only in practice but evident in appearance too. What is a NAP?



The depravity that led to the fall only became widespread after 25m, as stated in the Dark Eldar timeline posted; they were not in the majority until then, and mostly were a minority who lived in the webway, away from the eyes of the main Eldar councils near the beginning.It says that the Eldar race's depravity reaches new heights.



The Eldar stopping the worship of the old gods is probably what ended the Dark Age of Technology and began the Age of Strife due to the warp storms beginning to heat up as a direct consequence of the large change of direction in the galaxy's most vital race, further reinforcing the utter helplessness of humanity as their golden age ended due to something completely unrelated and uncaring to them.And whats stated in the thread I have continuously linked.



It's around 5000 years later the first Craftworlds emerge.
Who cares.



And also, the great Crusade where the Emperor set out to finally unite humanity,Reunite actually


and replace the Eldar as the galaxy's most vital race. It did not happen before, during the DAOT but afterwards; after the age of strife.As I've said, my theory is that the Eldar were a hegemonic empire that ruled the galaxy but by M18 had stopped giving a crap about what happened in the greater galaxy. This allows DAoT humanity to pretty much expand nearly everywhere and kick everyone who are not the Eldar's asses.



During the time of the DAOT (15m - 25m) humanity was great, but Eldar were greater. Did I say otherwise? Is there a taboo i'm breaking where people keep braying up the Eldar empire when I've not said a single thing about them being weak?


The larger part of the fall hadn't begun to hit critical mass (near 25m, when the Age of Strife began). This is what the timelime quotes from the rulebooks say.And?

Poseidal
13-04-2013, 13:24
He didn't say it was a failure with his mouth, but with his actions. Quite simply, he prefers it if they can stand alone, but takes action when he realises/decides they cannot.

The cults and depravity only started around 18m. It would take a long time to set a foothold and spread exponentially (at around 25m); at the start it was a rather underground movement, and only really stopped caring far later. Craftworlds were only re-purposed around 1000 years before the fall; before they were trading vessels (who having to travel a long time would be less changed in culture) implying they did care about the outside galaxy. The caring would really have only stopped around 24m.

NAP is non-aggression pact. It states that they had them with xenos, and Eldar are the most common Xenos around that time who are likely to have a pact like that, unlike Orks. Conjecture: They probably traded and Eldar benefited from learning improved chemical technology (like Krak missiles), while sharing gravitic and energy technology; trading and getting samples in existing technology will advance them far more than trying to learn and make these devices in a vacuum.

One 'technology' (or ability) that the Imperium has is much better and more reliable Warp travel than they did back then, thanks to the Astronomican. This is the biggest factor in why the Imperium is the greated unified organisation of mankind. The DAOT at best were several successful human organisations (empires or federations) at peace with each other.

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 13:38
He didn't say it was a failure with his mouth, but with his actions.DAoT era ended when the Age of Strife began.


Quite simply, he prefers it if they can stand alone, but takes action when he realises/decides they cannot.Yes, cause of the Age of Strife.



The cults and depravity only started around 18m. It would take a long time to set a foothold and spread exponentially (at around 25m); Agreed.



at the start it was a rather underground movement, and only really stopped caring far later. The stealing stars thing shows me otherwise.



Craftworlds were only re-purposed around 1000 years before the fall; before they were trading vessels (who having to travel a long time would be less changed in culture) implying they did care about the outside galaxy. The caring would really have only stopped around 24m.Maybe the trading vessels where for the various Eldar worlds?



NAP is non-aggression pact. It states that they had them with xenos, and Eldar are the most common Xenos around that time who are likely to have a pact like that, unlike Orks.And yet my quotes shows that DAoT humanity conquered and drove out aliens and pretty much expanded across the galaxy.

The bearded one
13-04-2013, 15:00
The emperors vision seems to be in tune with the dark age of technology. During the age of technology atheism was the norm. science was God, society progressive and innovative. The newly founded imperium corresponds with this, particularly the atheism. The emperor might've found the DaoT the highpoint to aspire to and was content when it was in place. The age of strife destroyed this age, and it was impossible for the emperor to prevent the age of strife because he couldn't stop galaxy-wide ferocious warpstorms. When the storms appeared to be ending he saw his chance, took Terra and launched the crusade to reestablish humanity.

The things the emperor does different from DaoT humanity are things that basically 'went wrong' and he tries to correct in their second try, most notably;
- no AI (to prevent the whole iron men shenanigan from happening again)
- controlling psykers (age of strife and daemonic posession et al)
- the rampant xenophobia (They had treaties and non-agression pacts with aliens in the age of technology, but when the age of strife hit most xenos betrayed them and backstabbed them, or began raiding the isolated human worlds. No more trusting xenos this time around. No taking chances.)

also this time around he took personal charge as leader of a unified imperium, rather than a federation of human worlds. He kinda had to, because he himself had to initiate this massive crusade to retake the galaxy in the first place so he couldn't do it from the sidelines or 'influence' someone to launch a galactic crusade.

Horus38
13-04-2013, 15:06
Weighing in the Eldar/DAOT humans: the pre-fall Eldar worlds were mostly concentrated in/around the Eye of Terror which is why there is basically no mention of Eldar worlds/cities with pre-fall eldar just hanging out in the wider galaxy. They're either empty maiden worlds groomed for eventual colonization/resources, or belong to the exodites. So I don't think man and Eldar were competing for worlds on the scale some people think.

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 15:12
The emperors vision seems to be in tune with the dark age of technology. During the age of technology atheism was the norm. science was God, society progressive and innovative. The newly founded imperium corresponds with this, particularly the atheism. The emperor might've found the DaoT the highpoint to aspire to and was content when it was in place. The age of strife destroyed this age, and it was impossible for the emperor to prevent the age of strife because he couldn't stop galaxy-wide ferocious warpstorms. When the storms appeared to be ending he saw his chance, took Terra and launched the crusade to reestablish humanity.

The things the emperor does different from DaoT humanity are things that basically 'went wrong' and he tries to correct in their second try, most notably;
- no AI (to prevent the whole iron men shenanigan from happening again)
- controlling psykers (age of strife and daemonic posession et al)
- the rampant xenophobia (They had treaties and non-agression pacts with aliens in the age of technology, but when the age of strife hit most xenos betrayed them and backstabbed them, or began raiding the isolated human worlds. No more trusting xenos this time around. No taking chances.)

also this time around he took personal charge as leader of a unified imperium, rather than a federation of human worlds. He kinda had to, because he himself had to initiate this massive crusade to retake the galaxy in the first place so he couldn't do it from the sidelines or 'influence' someone to launch a galactic crusade.This. I agree with all of this. Hell, those warp storms were caused by Xenos!

And those 'went wrong' you mention are what caused DAoT humanity to fall along with human on human civil war of course.



Weighing in the Eldar/DAOT humans: the pre-fall Eldar worlds were mostly concentrated in/around the Eye of Terror which is why there is basically no mention of Eldar worlds/cities with pre-fall eldar just hanging out in the wider galaxy. They're either empty maiden worlds groomed for eventual colonization/resources, or belong to the exodites. So I don't think man and Eldar were competing for worlds on the scale some people think.Humanities rapid expansion and wars would still logically get some Eldar attention.

malika
13-04-2013, 15:57
The emperors vision seems to be in tune with the dark age of technology. During the age of technology atheism was the norm. science was God, society progressive and innovative. The newly founded imperium corresponds with this, particularly the atheism. The emperor might've found the DaoT the highpoint to aspire to and was content when it was in place. The age of strife destroyed this age, and it was impossible for the emperor to prevent the age of strife because he couldn't stop galaxy-wide ferocious warpstorms. When the storms appeared to be ending he saw his chance, took Terra and launched the crusade to reestablish humanity.
Why should technological development and religion have to exclude each other? Look at Iran today for example, despite having a theological regime in power they do a lot of scientific research (especially on genetics). Same could be said about the US by the way, despite having many technological advances originate from there, the country is a deeply religious one.

As for the Emperor and his atheism, it seems to be more than just that. It's a form of antitheism, he seeks to wipe out all religions in the universe, perhaps even with the goal of replacing it with his own ascension (which is very debatable).

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 16:02
Why should technological development and religion have to exclude each other? Look at Iran today for example, despite having a theological regime in power they do a lot of scientific research (especially on genetics). Same could be said about the US by the way, despite having many technological advances originate from there,
Nothing. We are just saying that DAoT humanity is stated to have seen science as god or more likely stopped caring about religion and simply become more atheistic.


the country is a deeply religious one.Funny. I've heard it said that people are becoming more atheistic in america.



As for the Emperor and his atheism, it seems to be more than just that. It's a form of antitheism, he seeks to wipe out all religions in the universe, perhaps even with the goal of replacing it with his own ascension (which is very debatable).We have seen no evidence for this at all.

Poseidal
13-04-2013, 16:12
And yet my quotes shows that DAoT humanity conquered and drove out aliens and pretty much expanded across the galaxy.

This one?

22nd to 25th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The first Navigators are born, allowing human spaceships to make even longer, quicker warp jumps.
Mankind enters a golden age of enlightenment as scientific and technological progress accelerates.
Human worlds unite and non-aggression pacts are secured with dozens of alien races.

There were probably enough planets for the both of them though, and several shared one. Remember the Exodite Knights who fought but more or less co-existed with the humans, who made their own Knights?

The trading wouldn't have been for other Eldar, because as we know from the Dark Eldar codex, they love alien rarities.

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 16:19
This one?

22nd to 25th Millennia—The Dark Age of Technology
The first Navigators are born, allowing human spaceships to make even longer, quicker warp jumps.
Mankind enters a golden age of enlightenment as scientific and technological progress accelerates.
Human worlds unite and non-aggression pacts are secured with dozens of alien races.
nope. These ones:

Mankind is not the only race to walk among the stars. Since
they first traveled beyond their own star system, in the early
days of the Age of Technology, Mankind has encountered alien
races, most of which have proven hostile. While some xenos
exist only on a single planet, other civilisations might occupy a
star system and there are a few that are widely spread across the
. great void of the galaxy. It has never been in Man's nature to
share his worlds with aliens, and bloodshed has ever formed the
foundation of empire. Sometimes, humans and aliens are forced
to fight over inhabitable planets or vital resources at other
times, humans must do battle with the most dangerous types
of xenos, whose only aim is to eradicate humanity wherever
their paths cross.

Down the ages, there have been innumerable
wars, planet-wide battles of annihilation and long campaigns
of genocide that have stretched over vast distances and eras.
Despite this eternal pressure and with a staggering cost of lives
and material, Mankind has expanded their realm one planet at a
time. Even now, however, the Imperium is beset on all sides by
aliens determined to enslave, subvert or destroy humanity.


Many planets were usurped
from xenos races long ago, some during the initial colonisations
of the Age of Technology, and now the aliens' very existence
on such worlds has been forgotten, their ancient histories
lost to the relentless march of time. This explains why great
monuments of inhuman design are occasionally unearthed,
strange technologies found buried beneath levels of stone and
metal, crushed down beneath long ages of human expanse.



There were probably enough planets for the both of them though, and several shared one. Remember the Exodite Knights who fought but more or less co-existed with the humans, who made their own Knights?IIRC, Exodite worlds exist cause of Eldar who abandoned the Empire due to its hedonism. And by that point it was Age of Strife for the human race.



The trading wouldn't have been for other Eldar, because as we know from the Dark Eldar codex, they love alien rarities.*shrug* There is neither confirmation for either viewpoint really.

Idaan
13-04-2013, 19:21
As I've said, my theory is that the Eldar were a hegemonic empire that ruled the galaxy but by M18 had stopped giving a crap about what happened in the greater galaxy. This allows DAoT humanity to pretty much expand nearly everywhere and kick everyone who are not the Eldar's asses.

The Maiden Worlds were seeded in M25. Undertaking the greatest terraforming project in history is a proof that the Eldar definitely did care about things happening in the greater galaxy at that time.

SpaceTiger
14-04-2013, 05:06
The Maiden Worlds were seeded in M25. Undertaking the greatest terraforming project in history is a proof that the Eldar definitely did care about things happening in the greater galaxy at that time.Can't be. M25 was when the Eldar empire's core worlds have fully become immersed with Hedonism. Do you mean exodite worlds?

The bearded one
14-04-2013, 05:23
Werent the coreworlds 'fully' immersed with hedonism closer to M30 when the fall took place? I cant imagine Eldar society being utter madness 5000 years before they went pop. Unless by 'immersed' you just mean it's beginning to crop up, but far from the lunacy of the final days.

Exodite worlds and maiden worlds are the same, though. Exodite worlds are maiden worlds that the exodites have finally taken into use.

SpaceTiger
14-04-2013, 05:33
Werent the coreworlds 'fully' immersed with hedonism closer to M30 when the fall took place?From M25-M30


I cant imagine Eldar society being utter madness 5000 years before they went pop.
See the codex.


Unless by 'immersed' you just mean it's beginning to crop up,Nope. It had already cropped up among the Eldar population during M18.


but far from the lunacy of the final days.Who says it wasn't bad before the final days?



Exodite worlds and maiden worlds are the same, though. Exodite worlds are maiden worlds that the exodites have finally taken into use.I forgot about that. yeah, the exodites came to the Maiden worlds just before the Fall. Which means they were built before.

The bearded one
14-04-2013, 15:09
Who says it wasn't bad before the final days?

I can't imagine total bloodshed and hedonism being sustainable for 5000 years. I think by "immersed" you mean that the hedonism is gripping eldar society, but not to the point of utter madness yet, merely slowly heading there. Also about the craftworlders it is said that, due to their long trips of hundreds of years, they could see the slide to depravity the eldar were making that the other eldar themselves couldn't see because it was so enormously gradual, because the craftworlders didn't see the whole process, merely visited every couple hundred years and saw the huge leaps in hedonism.

SpaceTiger
14-04-2013, 15:53
I can't imagine total bloodshed and hedonism being sustainable for 5000 years. I think by "immersed" you mean that the hedonism is gripping eldar society, but not to the point of utter madness yet, merely slowly heading there. Also about the craftworlders it is said that, due to their long trips of hundreds of years, they could see the slide to depravity the eldar were making that the other eldar themselves couldn't see because it was so enormously gradual, because the craftworlders didn't see the whole process, merely visited every couple hundred years and saw the huge leaps in hedonism.i'm just going with what this says:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=168698&d=1365853579

The bearded one
14-04-2013, 16:11
.. Dang.. You make a pretty convincing case there :p

malika
15-04-2013, 09:09
Nothing. We are just saying that DAoT humanity is stated to have seen science as god or more likely stopped caring about religion and simply become more atheistic.
Where does it state that? Furthermore, if we are dealing with trillions upon trillions of humans, with millions (if not billions) of different cultures, wouldn't you imagine that it's not all that black and white?


Funny. I've heard it said that people are becoming more atheistic in america.
I'm still waiting for the day in which a US presidential candidate can openly state that (s)he is an atheist. Whilst there might be more atheists in the US today than in the past, religion is still drenched throughout its politics.


We have seen no evidence for this at all.
And we haven't seen any evidence to counter this either. We have seen the debate though. The Word Bearers have come to believe that the Emperor is seeking godhood all for himself. Whilst this may, or may not, be true is not that important, what is important is that factions within the Imperium believe this.

As for the Eldar Fall...note that this didn't just happen over night. The Fall itself is an event that went on for many years.

SpaceTiger
15-04-2013, 12:10
Where does it state that? Furthermore, if we are dealing with trillions upon trillions of humans, with millions (if not billions) of different cultures, wouldn't you imagine that it's not all that black and white?Its in the fluff where they say that DAoT humanity had come to see science as god or look at the Kurse entry in my DAoT tech thread; they look to science, logic and reason for aid. Not god.



I'm still waiting for the day in which a US presidential candidate can openly state that (s)he is an atheist. Whilst there might be more atheists in the US today than in the past, religion is still drenched throughout its politics.And into the far future of the DAoT humanity, won't there be more atheists?



And we haven't seen any evidence to counter this either. We have seen the debate though. The Word Bearers have come to believe that the Emperor is seeking godhood all for himself. Whilst this may, or may not, be true is not that important, what is important is that factions within the Imperium believe this.ADB says the Emp has always protected mankind in that youtube link I posted, Malcador statements that I've posted shows the Emp has beliefs that are contrary to such a thing, at least thats how I see it and finally the Emp's webway project is not an attempt at godhood.



As for the Eldar Fall...note that this didn't just happen over night. The Fall itself is an event that went on for many years.I already know this. So?

malika
15-04-2013, 13:15
Its in the fluff where they say that DAoT humanity had come to see science as god or look at the Kurse entry in my DAoT tech thread; they look to science, logic and reason for aid. Not god.
And all those trillions upon trillions of humans all follow that same ideology? I really find that hard to believe...


And into the far future of the DAoT humanity, won't there be more atheists?
We don't know. You mentioned that they've come to see science as god, which means they've maintained religion, only given it a slightly different set of rituals.


ADB says the Emp has always protected mankind in that youtube link I posted, Malcador statements that I've posted shows the Emp has beliefs that are contrary to such a thing, at least thats how I see it and finally the Emp's webway project is not an attempt at godhood.
Protecting mankind and wanting to become a god don't have to exclude each other. As for the discussion between Malcador and the Emperor, you make a good point there. However, not all characters in the 40k universe agree with this of course. My point was not whether the Emperor himself truly wants to become a God, but more the perceptions by others. There's a difference between the two. ;)

SpaceTiger
15-04-2013, 13:37
And all those trillions upon trillions of humans all follow that same ideology? I really find that hard to believe...I'm just pointing out a big possibility. Also why not? Whose to say that future humans will be far more atheistic or at least not religious in the current way and children are thought way too? I'm talking about 40k here btw.



We don't know. You mentioned that they've come to see science as god, which means they've maintained religion, only given it a slightly different set of rituals.
Now you're just being ridiculously literal. To me it means that humanity had come to see science, logic and reason as greater and more important, more truth than religion, thats all.



Protecting mankind and wanting to become a god don't have to exclude each other. As for the discussion between Malcador and the Emperor, you make a good point there. However, not all characters in the 40k universe agree with this of course. My point was not whether the Emperor himself truly wants to become a God, but more the perceptions by others. There's a difference between the two. ;)I was simply talking about the Emp's motives itself. Not about peoples own personal perceptions.

malika
15-04-2013, 13:56
I'm just pointing out a big possibility. Also why not? Whose to say that future humans will be far more atheistic or at least not religious in the current way and children are thought way too? I'm talking about 40k here btw.
That's not really the question. What you're trying to suggest here is that humanity in the far future is that united. I mean, there are trillions and trillions of them, of course there will be many different ideologies, beliefs and ideas. Even the Imperium is very divided, why would the DAoT be more united? They didn't even had that united political system.


Now you're just being ridiculously literal. To me it means that humanity had come to see science, logic and reason as greater and more important, more truth than religion, thats all.
Hmm, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think science and religion have to exclude each other. Furthermore, the form religion takes might be very different as well. Ok, maybe they won't worship some guy hanging on a cross, but still maintain a social system which seems very religiously. Look at Maoist China for example, despite having attempted to destroy the past, they still managed to maintain a very Confucian system of morality.

SpaceTiger
15-04-2013, 14:09
That's not really the question. What you're trying to suggest here is that humanity in the far future is that united. I mean, there are trillions and trillions of them, of course there will be many different ideologies, beliefs and ideas. Even the Imperium is very divided, why would the DAoT be more united? They didn't even had that united political system.I'm just pointing out what the fluff says. humanity during the DAoT is said to have seen science as god, technology, logic and reason was exalted and all that.

Look at this quote from Black Crusade The Tome of Blood:

The Dark Age of Technology saw the rise of thousands of
worlds filled with splendour and wonder under the auspices of
Mankind. Under the curse of technological advancement man
stretched forth his dominion of the galaxy and lost the most vital
of spiritual connections.



Hmm, I think we are misunderstanding each other. I don't think science and religion have to exclude each other.I never said otherwise.


Furthermore, the form religion takes might be very different as well. Ok, maybe they won't worship some guy hanging on a cross, but still maintain a social system which seems very religiously. Look at Maoist China for example, despite having attempted to destroy the past, they still managed to maintain a very Confucian system of morality.And they could have just became atheists or apatheists or whatever *shrug*.