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View Full Version : Construction of Golden Throne good idea or bad idea



Kebert Xela
11-04-2013, 19:50
Okay so one of the biggest holes in the 40K universe fluff IMO is the Emperor making the golden throne and i was curious if anyone agreed with me. Obviously given what happened after the Emp decided to go work on it, it was not a good decision. But I wanted to look at the fluff that led to its creation. Personally I thought it was a terrible idea as the Emperors timing on its construction was a bit off, probably should have built it BEFORE the primarchs creation or AFTER he was done conquering the galaxy. Why he chose to leave the crusade at like 80 percent of the way done (or however far they were into it) is beyond me other than the need for webway access was serious though i havent read anythingin the fluff that said humans need webway now. Also as he was connecting his dungeons to the webway we are to assume that this was going to allow humans to travel around but everything I have read about the webway has only the eldar nad necrons able to access it intentionally, everyone else ends up there by accident or gets stuck there pursuing eldar or is allowed in by the eldar etc... So does that mean the Emp was going to run all traffic via under his throne to the rest of the galaxy (personally I imagine a giant traffic backup with randoms in lines for miles in his palace waiting to visit their uncle or whatever on the other side of the galaxy). Also it was mentioned in a book (I forget which one) he intended magnus to sit on the throne and control the gate and guide humanity through the webway……does that mean Magnus was supposed to be a giant traffic controller and accept this as his occupation for the next 10 millenia or so. Doesn’t seem very planned out for someone of “towering intellect”….…wish GW would add a little more to why the Emp needed to go about his “great work” and couldnt be bothered by even the primarchs other than he wanted a better way to travel

Hendarion
11-04-2013, 19:55
It was a good decision. He got to God-like status within the Imperium after all. Goals reached.

The bearded one
11-04-2013, 21:18
It was a good decision. He got to God-like status within the Imperium after all. Goals reached.

Little miss sceptic ;)

Malagor
11-04-2013, 21:36
It was a good idea overall I think.
The execution however needed some work as he was terrible at people really.

Beaviz
11-04-2013, 22:53
It was the only idea that could work in order to maintain the Webway that Empy wanted. He intended to have Magnus placed on it as a living battery. Instead now he is placed on it.

grissom2006
12-04-2013, 20:27
His timing my well of been off but you can't know for sure. Had he startd the project earlier something else could of come up to prevent the completion of the gate. I actually think that it was more the case he started the project because A his sons could finish what he started but that B he aquired things needed to make the gate work. Have to remember the gate the Emperor opened up lead to a long abandoned city and not believed to be that of the Eldar either and more likely The Old Ones. The Emperor also knew all to well how difficult and risky warp travel was and would always be. He had the imperium just about all brought into line but if everything in the imperium could be cut off from one another by warp storms the imperium would collapse. Need only remember that Earth was cut off from everything before the Crusade started. As we know the Chaos Gods can could and did make warp storms that hindered loyal forces while allowing those on Horus's side to move about unhindered for the most part unless it served a goal like the Death Guard pledging loyalty to Nurgle. Also you make the comment of it being the dungeon it was the lowest level but didn't make it the dungeon. The lower levels were where most of the research was done it was also a site that had been used pre the Emperors coming. He couldn't of made the gate anywhere else as the access to the section of the Webway was in that location and no where else on the entire planet. Plenty of short little bits of fluff all state that no one knows how the Emperor knew it was there other than he must of some how sensed it. But there again he could just as easily come across something on the crusade that told it was there.

As for Magnus being sat on the throne as a battery who knows we do know the Emperor had a habit of creating things to then cast them aside IE the Thunder Warriors. We have no real idea what his plans for the Primarchs were for after the Crusade. Some would argue they'd become fuedal lords over various parts of the imperium but they could of been cast aside just as easily.

Hendarion
12-04-2013, 20:56
I don't want to be mean or something, but is this "of" instead of "have" some kind of slang or something? As a non-native speaker, I had a really hard time to to understand your English.

Ramius4
12-04-2013, 21:09
I don't want to be mean or something, but is this "of" instead of "have" some kind of slang or something? As a non-native speaker, I had a really hard time to to understand your English.

It is not even slang, just someone using 'of' instead of 'have' which is very poor English.

Soss
12-04-2013, 23:42
I have to believe that the Emperor knew that any conection to the warp would cause some or all of his followers to be comsumed by chaos. As the only means of travel it was a needed evil. If he could of completed the gates it would of almost cut off most of the contact with the warp, with the only other contact being worlds where there was Daemon activity. These worlds could be purged by his legion, again removing any threat.

How it was going to operate; I think no one knows. It looks like he had a plan for Magnus to run it, which should of worked if he had started the process earlier before chaos got a hold of him. There seems to be a deal done by the Emperor and Chaos to allow the creation of the primarchs and I think the Emperor was trying his best to cover that up. If you look at what he did to the Thunder Warriors I think you can see that each Primarch was a tool in his grand plan.

I think it was a good plan, it just was bad timing.

insectum7
13-04-2013, 00:08
Good idea. Without it I don't think the astronomicon could operate. Without the Astronomicon the Imperium couldn't operate.

ryng_sting
13-04-2013, 08:24
Mechanicum suggests the Golden Throne is based around a device the Emperor recovered underneath a Terran desert - and similar examples of the same tech have been found. It's primary purpose was to amplify psyker powers. Over the millennia since, the Emperor custom-built additions to the machine to serve his goals, such as breaking into the webway and reducing mankind's dependency on warp travel and astropathy.

What I don't get is this assumption that, if everything had gone to plan and Magnus not interfered, all would have been well. The Emperor still has to secure each gate, note where it leads to, and therefore which systems should use it, set up points of access for Imperial Worlds, set up a system for regulating the 'traffic' flow, and keep every inch of it safe from potential intruders. And all of this assuming the Eldar simply leave him to it.

This isn't really the kind of work you can do over a long weekend.

El_Machinae
13-04-2013, 10:14
A fatal flaw of many empires is communication time. Once a vassal is a few weeks away, or a few months away, the odds of rebellion skyrocket. The Imperium was getting pretty big, and figuring out how to rapidly transit would mean that the Imperium could be held together much more easily. It could've been an essential step.


I don't want to be mean or something, but is this "of" instead of "have" some kind of slang or something? As a non-native speaker, I had a really hard time to to understand your English.

A contraction of "have" is " 've". "I could've" "We should've". When speaking English, the ear can mishear what people are saying, so "I should've" kinda sounds like "I should of". So, the person will then write the words the way they hear them, and often replace " 've" with "of"

SpaceTiger
13-04-2013, 11:53
Obviously given what happened after the Emp decided to go work on it, it was not a good decision.Nope. It was a good idea. Its just a fool called Magnus fouled it up due to his arrogance.



Personally I thought it was a terrible idea as the Emperors timing on its construction was a bit off, probably should have built it BEFORE the primarchs creation or AFTER he was done conquering the galaxy.if one goes with what warhammer 40k wiki says which is this:


The core of the device that would become the Golden Throne, whose exact origin during the Dark Age of Technology is currently unknown, was discovered by the Emperor in the 30th Millennium during the Unification Wars on Terra, buried deep under a huge and inhospitable desert in Asia. This was in the time before the building of the Imperial Palace, although the exact date is also currently unknown. The original use that the Emperor found for the Golden Throne (or of the core device that the Throne was later constructed around) was that it could serve as a Webway portal based on Terra. Prior to the outbreak of the Horus Heresy, and over a period of several centuries, the Emperor directed tens of thousands of Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-priests into modifying the Throne so it could be put into use as the nexus of his secret Webway Project.




Why he chose to leave the crusade at like 80 percent of the way done (or however far they were into it) is beyond meBecause he had confidence and belief that the Primarchs or Horus could complete their jobs on their own without need him there to hold their hands. Seriously, Emperor or the leaders of nations don't attend every battle or campaign! They leave that up to their generals to handle while they deal with matters of state.



other than the need for webway access was serious though i havent read anythingin the fluff that said humans need webway now.He wanted to unite humanity like never before hence the webway project. If you recall, one of the big reasons for the Age of Strife to wreck humanity was the warp storms that prevented humans from travelling anywhere. The Webway would not be affected by such things and would bypass such Warp storms.



Also as he was connecting his dungeons to the webway we are to assume that this was going to allow humans to travel around but everything I have read about the webway has only the eldar nad necrons able to access it intentionally, everyone else ends up there by accident or gets stuck there pursuing eldar or is allowed in by the eldar etc... So does that mean the Emp was going to run all traffic via under his throne to the rest of the galaxy (personally I imagine a giant traffic backup with randoms in lines for miles in his palace waiting to visit their uncle or whatever on the other side of the galaxy).*facepalm* Obviously, the Terran Webway portals purpose was for humanity to gain access to the Webway and then proceed to conquer it as stated here:


Its construction was
to have been the first stagein a bold mission to conquer the web of the warp
and thus free Humanity from reliance on warp-ships and astrotelepathy
Unrfottunately events have conspired to disrupt my schemes and we now face
a time of crisis.



Also it was mentioned in a book (I forget which one) he intended magnus to sit on the throne and control the gate and guide humanity through the webway……does that mean Magnus was supposed to be a giant traffic controller and accept this as his occupation for the next 10 millenia or so.Magnus was probably mean to take the Emp's place of being the one who protects the human portion of the Webway from the Warp.

Here from The Horus Heresy Collected Visions pg 326


The consequences of Magnus the Red's warning spell to the Emperor were
devastating. The Golden Throne gatewa, the Imperial conduit and the alienbuilt
web-tunnels were a1l both physical and psychic in nature. Wrapped
around the physical component was a psychic sheath or shield. the very substance
of the alien tunnels appeared to generate this shielding naturally - the
Imperial engineers and technicians found no mechanisms or engines that
wete tesponsible for it. [b]For the human-built gateway and conduit, the
Emperor himself generated the protective psychic sheath. This psy-shield
sealed the web from the warp and its denizens in some inexplicably arcane
fashion.[b/]




Doesn’t seem very planned out for someone of “towering intellect”….…wish GW would add a little more to why the Emp needed to go about his “great work” and couldnt be bothered by even the primarchs otherIts your own thoughts and opinions that aren't well thought out.


than he wanted a better way to travel


However, it is
possible to travel to the other side of the
Imperium in the blink of an eye through its
arcane passageways if one can access the necessary
warp-gates



Its construction was
to have been the first stagein a bold mission to conquer the web of the warp
and thus free Humanity from reliance on warp-ships and astrotelepathy
Unrfottunately events have conspired to disrupt my schemes and we now face
a time of crisis.

I'm sure that I don't have to explaining how advantageous this would be for the human race?



It was a good decision. He got to God-like status within the Imperium after all. Goals reached.:rolleyes:

Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNRPsqrXMXQ
ADB himself states that the Emp has always protected Mankind.

Also:

Malcador says this of the Emp:
1] The Emp has a powerful intellect, blunt but powerful.

2] And very occasionally even a sense of humor of a sort.

3] Malcador and the Emp have had a debate thats been going on for a long time, the debate is about the leadership of humanity. The Emp believes that its the task of a ruler is to make himself obsolete so that his people would replace him when they are mature enough. Malcador disagrees and states that he believes that humanity will never be mature enough for that. He(Malcador) that no one but the Emp is strong enough to hold Mankind together.

4] The Emp has high aspirations for the human race, too high according to Malcador.




It was a good idea overall I think.
The execution however needed some work as he was terrible at people really.Nope. Its Magnus's fault.



It was the only idea that could work in order to maintain the Webway that Empy wanted. He intended to have Magnus placed on it as a living battery. Instead now he is placed on it.See above. He is placed on it because he has to transmit the Astronomicon and above all else keep the gate shut lest the Daemons invade Terra.

El_Machinae
13-04-2013, 13:11
I wonder how hard it was to get the Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-priests to build the equipment he needn't. Did he provide blueprints, or did he provide research projects for them to solve?

Chem-Dog
13-04-2013, 17:45
Someone here posited a very interesting hypothesis on the Golden throne and the Emperor's timing a little while ago.

As I remember it the Golden Throne needed parts and the Great Crusade was, in part, a search for those parts based on the knowledge that they should be out there somewhere. Ullanor is where they were eventually found and this is why the Emperor chose then to retire from the crusade and embark on his project that would forever remove humanity's reliance on the warp.

yabbadabba
13-04-2013, 17:57
other than the need for webway access was serious though i havent read anythingin the fluff that said humans need webway now. Sorry fella but the background is full of recordings of the dangers of warp travel and the destruction of parts of the Imperium because a rescue fleet arrived too late to help.

Strong internal lines of movement and communication are as important to protect an Empire as soldiers and wars.

Malagor
15-04-2013, 01:01
Nope. Its Magnus's fault.

Oh I agree just that the Primarchs always struck me as child-like in some ways.
Without guidance from their father they got lost and confused and being all secret about it doesn't really work when it comes to children.
Maybe I haven't gotten far enough into the HH series but why did he feel he needed to keep it a secret?
Chaos gods already knew about it and was frightened by the thought of it and pretty sure the Eldar knew as well since they can see the future. So it only served to **** off/confuse his sons.


See above. He is placed on it because he has to transmit the Astronomicon and above all else keep the gate shut lest the Daemons invade Terra.
Also read that the throne would have used alot less psychic energy had Magnus not screwed up.
So Magnus probably been just fine sitting on the throne but now the Emperor has to keep the breached closed and guide the astronomican all the while sitting on a busted machine that is getting worse.

SpaceTiger
15-04-2013, 02:53
Oh I agree just that the Primarchs always struck me as child-like in some ways.There was nothing childlike about Magnus other then his huge arrogance problem.




Without guidance from their father they got lost and confused and being all secret about it doesn't really work when it comes to children.That only really applies to Horus. Who turned at the end of the day due to Chaos intervention. The others like Angron and Mortarion didn't care for the Emp at all.



Maybe I haven't gotten far enough into the HH series but why did he feel he needed to keep it a secret?
Chaos gods already knew about it and was frightened by the thought of it and pretty sure the Eldar knew as well since they can see the future. So it only served to **** off/confuse his sons.Eldar farseeing is not omniscient. Its probable that they too couldn't see far into the future. Hell, the Emp couldn't see into the future cause the Chaos gods were screwing around with him.

Sandlemad
15-04-2013, 06:25
Sorry fella but the background is full of recordings of the dangers of warp travel and the destruction of parts of the Imperium because a rescue fleet arrived too late to help.

Strong internal lines of movement and communication are as important to protect an Empire as soldiers and wars.

In a more abstract sense, one of the Emperor's big plans is the carefully guided psychic maturation of humanity and the rejection of the gods of the warp. If you wanted to separate the people of the Imperium from contact with the warp, removing warp travel as the main means of communication throughout the galaxy is probably the biggest single thing you could do towards that end.

yabbadabba
15-04-2013, 17:10
In a more abstract sense, one of the Emperor's big plans is the carefully guided psychic maturation of humanity and the rejection of the gods of the warp. If you wanted to separate the people of the Imperium from contact with the warp, removing warp travel as the main means of communication throughout the galaxy is probably the biggest single thing you could do towards that end. Agreed but it is also, without the right technology, a guaranteed way to destroy your empire. I think the idea was that if the Emperor did create a "webway" then we would be looking at something more like the Eldar one and capable of resisting the Warp. Once that was up and running the Emps would be off to do battle with the Gods of Chaos himself. After all he is a child of Chaos, who better to lay the smacketh down on them?

SpaceTiger
15-04-2013, 17:14
Agreed but it is also, without the right technology, a guaranteed way to destroy your empire. I think the idea was that if the Emperor did create a "webway" then we would be looking at something more like the Eldar one and capable of resisting the Warp. The Emp was trying to jack into the Webway that is already there. Not create a new webway.


Once that was up and running the Emps would be off to do battle with the Gods of Chaos himself. After all he is a child of Chaos, who better to lay the smacketh down on them?What?

Xisor
18-04-2013, 00:51
I think the idea was a knife-edge. It was the gamble. If he'd played it safe, he might have kept the galaxy, but he could never have moved on from that (I surmise) - it would have been a perpetual conflict between the Imperial Truth (or any given variant, even allowing for the Gods it'd have plunged the Galaxy into never-ending conflict. Even without the 'wisdom' behind the Golden Throne, the Alpha Legion, Sigismund and a fair few others in HH-era seem to believe that never-ending conflict was the ultimate end of the Emperor's Great Crusade, regardless of anything else).

If he'd reached further, if he'd outright declared himself godly and set himself against the Gods, he'd have found himself in the same (yet different) eternal conflict.

But, by reaching into the Golden Throne, he taps into the Webway, the survivor: Cegorach. By doing so, he also taps into the 'raison d'etre' of all of creation, the War in Heaven. He sets himself up as a player: he reaches the point (a la Legion's cabal) that he need not count himself amongst the 'Young Races', but the... others. ;)

However, by focusing on the Golden Throne, by shackling the Dragon on Mars, by doing everything he does (e.g. creating cunningly brutal and brutally cunning twins in Alpharius Omegon...?!), he allows another 're-roll of the dice' when the War in Heaven is considered.

But what place does the Emperor on the Golden Throne play?

We know that Khaine is dead. The Emperor's life-in-death being a weak means to propagate war unending tallies with Khaine. His Golden Throne, Mars and the Dragon touches base with Vaul. He created 20 Godlings to 'fill' or 'touch base' with the rest of the weak, disparate or fragmented Pantheon. But by reaching into the Webway and lying to humanity about the nature of the Imperial Truth? That's Cegorach, surely.

But on the Golden Throne. Dying. Dead. Sacrificed untold billions of souls to sustaining. Only at the End of Time, at the ultimate battle against Chaos will he truly prosper?

Ynnead.

Good or bad, it doesn't matter. To put it simply, it was... predestined. As soon as he took up a 'place' in the War in Heaven, his place was known. If he'd been content to just be a regular immortal super-being, perhaps the Galaxy might have lived on in semi-perpetual misery for many millions of years to come. But oh ho, ol' Emperor thought he could do it...

Or did he? Perhaps he just wanted to spare the rest of eternity the waste of time...

SpaceTiger
18-04-2013, 02:58
I think the idea was a knife-edge. It was the gamble. If he'd played it safe, he might have kept the galaxy, but he could never have moved on from that (I surmise) - it would have been a perpetual conflict between the Imperial Truth (or any given variant, even allowing for the Gods it'd have plunged the Galaxy into never-ending conflict. Even without the 'wisdom' behind the Golden Throne, the Alpha Legion, Sigismund and a fair few others in HH-era seem to believe that never-ending conflict was the ultimate end of the Emperor's Great Crusade, regardless of anything else).

If he'd reached further, if he'd outright declared himself godly and set himself against the Gods, he'd have found himself in the same (yet different) eternal conflict.

But, by reaching into the Golden Throne, he taps into the Webway, the survivor: Cegorach. By doing so, he also taps into the 'raison d'etre' of all of creation, the War in Heaven. He sets himself up as a player: he reaches the point (a la Legion's cabal) that he need not count himself amongst the 'Young Races', but the... others. ;)

However, by focusing on the Golden Throne, by shackling the Dragon on Mars, by doing everything he does (e.g. creating cunningly brutal and brutally cunning twins in Alpharius Omegon...?!), he allows another 're-roll of the dice' when the War in Heaven is considered.

But what place does the Emperor on the Golden Throne play?

We know that Khaine is dead. The Emperor's life-in-death being a weak means to propagate war unending tallies with Khaine. His Golden Throne, Mars and the Dragon touches base with Vaul. He created 20 Godlings to 'fill' or 'touch base' with the rest of the weak, disparate or fragmented Pantheon. But by reaching into the Webway and lying to humanity about the nature of the Imperial Truth? That's Cegorach, surely.

But on the Golden Throne. Dying. Dead. Sacrificed untold billions of souls to sustaining. Only at the End of Time, at the ultimate battle against Chaos will he truly prosper?

Ynnead.

Good or bad, it doesn't matter. To put it simply, it was... predestined. As soon as he took up a 'place' in the War in Heaven, his place was known. If he'd been content to just be a regular immortal super-being, perhaps the Galaxy might have lived on in semi-perpetual misery for many millions of years to come. But oh ho, ol' Emperor thought he could do it...

Or did he? Perhaps he just wanted to spare the rest of eternity the waste of time...What are you on about? Humans in 40k since the fall of the DAoT have always been miserable one way or the other than the Imperium brought tyranny to the galaxy. I'm sure someone will bring up the Interex and Diasporex here. Look at the bigger picture. The majority of human worlds seem to be either feral or under alien enslavement or just living like the Interex somewhat or just fighting eternal wars with each other due to chaos.

The EMp launched the GC to reunite the human worlds and take the galaxy for humanity that now no longer belonged to the Eldar.

JWhex
18-04-2013, 04:20
Honestly, did the emperor have any "big" ideas that worked out? For a being that is supposed to have the most powerful mind ever among humans it seems to me he was massively incompetent and shackled to the idea that bloodshed solves every problem.

LexxBomb
18-04-2013, 05:34
Personally I can't stands the Retcon that happened with The Golden Throne... originally it was contrusted AFTER Horus was defeated with The Emperor telling Dorn what to do... making it exist before hand and making it the control device for the Human Webway was just plain stupid...

yabbadabba
18-04-2013, 05:49
What?Haven't you heard that one? Aside from being the most powerful human psychic, the idea of the Emperor being a child of Chaos is very old.

insectum7
18-04-2013, 06:12
Personally I can't stands the Retcon that happened with The Golden Throne... originally it was contrusted AFTER Horus was defeated with The Emperor telling Dorn what to do... making it exist before hand and making it the control device for the Human Webway was just plain stupid...

By some interpretations it's a retcon of a retcon. The Rogue Trader description of the Golden Throne is that it was "constructed by the Emperor in an elder age." Without mention of the Heresey. Either way he must have seen the purpose for it ahead of time.

El_Machinae
18-04-2013, 09:37
The caveat was that the Dorn version was super apocryphal, no?

SpaceTiger
18-04-2013, 10:43
Personally I can't stands the Retcon that happened with The Golden Throne... originally it was contrusted AFTER Horus was defeated with The Emperor telling Dorn what to do... making it exist before hand and making it the control device for the Human Webway was just plain stupid...Uh...The Golden Throne was as far as I know not meant to be a life support system. The Emp talking to Dorn made it that way.

Horus38
18-04-2013, 16:15
Uh...The Golden Throne was as far as I know not meant to be a life support system. The Emp talking to Dorn made it that way.

^ correct. In rebuttal LexxBomb, I think it's just plain stupid that they'd make the golden throne after the fact. The new fluff approach adds several layers and development to why the emperor is on the throne and what it's previous/current purpose is.

Bonzai
18-04-2013, 16:34
If the Golden Throne worked, and the Webway was taken, then the Emperor would have won. First, his sprawling empire would have been closely interconnected, allowing for fast travel and deployment of forces. No Xeno threat could stand against the focused might of the Legions. Not when they can be rapidly mustered and deployed. Second, this would begin the end game in the Emperor's war against chaos. With Navigators no longer needed for space travel, he can quietly do away with psykers. Without them, the Chaos entities would lose power. With faith and religion obliterated, and rigid order imposed, and the wars won, the Chaos gods would slowly starve to death.

That, I believe was the plan. The Chaos gods knew this, and hatched their own plans to corrupt half his sons, and throw the imperium into constant war.

Emperor's Grace
18-04-2013, 16:42
Mechanicum suggests the Golden Throne is based around a device the Emperor recovered underneath a Terran desert

Cough... Stargate...

(which, incidentallly, are made of naquadah - a mineral that amplifies energy...)


I'd also like to point out that one of the HH books mention a place on Terra that was built for the 20 primarchs to live in (and postulates about the intended end of war, maybe living as father and sons). This would make for an amazing weapon if a stable webway was available, i.e. the ability to send a strike force of primarchs to any site desired in an instant.

randian
18-04-2013, 18:18
the ability to send a strike force of primarchs to any site desired in an instant.
That would be strategically stupid. A squad of Primarchs makes them an oh so inviting target. In a very short time somebody is going to try to kill them by luring them to a planet and executing the equivalent of Exterminatus on it. Primarchs are tough, but not that tough.

Emperor's Grace
18-04-2013, 18:56
That could be said of even one primarch, or the emperor himself. Yet ... they move around, fight with their men, and gather in numbers (Ullanor, Nikea, etc...) in-universe.

Any concentration of primarch power should be worth an exterminatus trap or an all out assault on their spaceship(s) - yet only another SM (Horus) pulls it off (Istvaan) and only with a staggering level of deception.

Remember, they would not be sent as the advance scouts, you'd have armies and navies to send in as well. But they would make the ultimate "shock and awe" to destroy anything capable of resisting the "normal" soldiery, especially once the whole empire had been pacified.

In-universe, with proper planning, I don't see why it wouldn't have been thought a valid tactic post-crusade to break nasty enemies.


Besides, IRL, we concentrate large groups of force despite superweapons being obstensibly available...

The bearded one
19-04-2013, 00:12
Besides, IRL, we concentrate large groups of force despite superweapons being obstensibly available...

In real life we're a bit squeemish about radiating landscape and making it uninhabitable for decades, or staggering collatoral damage that may be inflicted on the population and infrastructure with both WMDs and conventional bombs. We still have to live on this little planet for quite some time after all.

JWhex
19-04-2013, 06:05
Another idiot talking from ignorance :rolleyes:. The conquest of Terra required bloodshed cause the people opposing the Emp were also warlords some of whom drank blood or are sorcerers or psyker witchkings!

The Emp was opposed by the Chaos gods united in a plot to destroy his plans. Does this compute?

Well you are not a very subtle thinker, here is a clue dont take every thing you read at face value.

El_Machinae
20-04-2013, 13:36
If the charisma of the Emperor was so overwhelming, it's a bit stunning he couldn't have conquered Earth a lot more peacefully

randian
20-04-2013, 19:06
If the charisma of the Emperor was so overwhelming, it's a bit stunning he couldn't have conquered Earth a lot more peacefully
That only works in person. Can't conquer Earth in person.

Victrix
20-04-2013, 22:20
No matter how charismatic a person one, do you think Barack Obama would step down from POTUS for them?

People like power, and cultural institutions support their right to that power.

SpaceTiger
21-04-2013, 02:45
If the charisma of the Emperor was so overwhelming, it's a bit stunning he couldn't have conquered Earth a lot more peacefullyHis enemies were other warlords some of whom drink blood, sorcerers, psyker witch kings, insane eugenicists and ****. DAoT civil wars involved lots and lots of WMD's being used. Any fool who tried a Ghandi was simply going to die.

JWhex
21-04-2013, 08:21
The way the Great Crusade was waged is an indication that the Emperor really just preferred mass murder to other options. Even civilizations that just wanted to be left alone were exterminated if they wouldnt join the IoM. Some civilizations that had allied with other peaceful xenos or were too divergent from Terrans were also exterminated. I think the fact that Angron was an insane killer that craved bloodshed says a lot about the Emperor, the seed not falling far from the tree and all that.

For all his skill in creating marines and the primarchs the Emperor was a bit of a dufus in the realm of population genetics, he didnt seem to really understand the concepts of population bottlenecks or random genetic drift.

SpaceTiger
21-04-2013, 11:22
The way the Great Crusade was waged is an indication that the Emperor really just preferred mass murder to other options. Even civilizations that just wanted to be left alone were exterminated if they wouldnt join the IoM.Because the Emp wanted everyone to be under one banner, conquest essentially and everyone under his rule like the romans. Those people resisted thus they got conquered. Unless you mean the aliens, they got exterminated cause the Emp didn't care for aliens.



Some civilizations that had allied with other peaceful xenosSee above.


or were too divergent from Terrans were also exterminated.Actually it was too divergent from human standards going to far like humans who have tentacles and **** or genetics ****ed up due to warp or virulent radiation.


I think the fact that Angron was an insane killer that craved bloodshed says a lot about the Emperor, the seed not falling far from the tree and all that.Ignorance once again. Angron was psychotic cause of his rage and the implants.



For all his skill in creating marines and the primarchs the Emperor was a bit of a dufus in the realm of population genetics, he didnt seem to really understand the concepts of population bottlenecks or random genetic drift.False. Ogryn and Squats say otherwise. A lot of the parts that were disliked are cause of genetic tinkering or due to warp or raiation and chemical effects.

SpaceTiger
21-04-2013, 11:25
What is so *********** hard to understand about the GC?! Its very simple; bow and become part of my empire or get conquered or exterminated if Angron* is the one who is the one who deals with you.

* = Guy is psycho after all.

El_Machinae
21-04-2013, 11:50
His enemies were other warlords some of whom drink blood, sorcerers, psyker witch kings, insane eugenicists and ****. DAoT civil wars involved lots and lots of WMD's being used. Any fool who tried a Ghandi was simply going to die.

Yes, if you want to defeat these people in one generation, you might need warfare.

Goosey_J
22-04-2013, 16:22
What is so *********** hard to understand about the GC?! Its very simple; bow and become part of my empire or get conquered or exterminated if Angron* is the one who is the one who deals with you.

* = Guy is psycho after all.

Tone down your attitude mate. If you can't play nicely, don't play at all.

=Angel=
22-04-2013, 20:48
A. Lot of things get justified in 40k that aren't in real life.
The emperor understood that those divergent humans were touched by chaos or simply so far removed from humanity as to be monsters.
This isn't casual racism on the part of the imperium- the background is rife with whole worlds being enslaved by daemons because of one ppyker.
The emperors plan was to control the whole human race for long enough to shape the emergent mutants and guide humanity into it's next evolution.
He would need total control in order to establish the imperial webway and calm the warp- cutting humanity from reliance on the warp for as long as it took.
You can't have random factions of space hippies using warp travel or planets of man-bat-goat-bear-pigs while this delicate phase is going on.

It is noteworthy that the emperor was bloodyminded enough to even attempt bloodshed on this scale.


When you go into space and you meet not one, but two ancient races who are designed as weapons- one of whom respects only killing, you'd be glad of a man like angron

JWhex
23-04-2013, 02:13
Because the Emp wanted everyone to be under one banner, conquest essentially and everyone under his rule like the romans. Those people resisted thus they got conquered. Unless you mean the aliens, they got exterminated cause the Emp didn't care for aliens.

See above.

Actually it was too divergent from human standards going to far like humans who have tentacles and **** or genetics ****ed up due to warp or virulent radiation.

Ignorance once again. Angron was psychotic cause of his rage and the implants.

False. Ogryn and Squats say otherwise. A lot of the parts that were disliked are cause of genetic tinkering or due to warp or raiation and chemical effects.

For someone with such a black and white viewpoint you throw the word ignorance around quite a bit. Moreover a lot of the things you say are not entirely supported. As an example you say that the squats were formed due to radiation, warp or chemical effects. This is actually not true. The squats were from high gravity worlds and their body size was the result of adaptation. This did not require any radiation or chemicals or the warp.

Your statement about Angron while true is not the whole picture, if you had a broader viewpoint and a better understanding of literature you would have noticed what most others have noticed, a rather elementary and basic theme from mythology of Greece, the primarchs, like Greek Gods, have their flaws and this is what makes them interesting to write about. The source of these flaws of course was the emperor. This has been blatantly repeated in so much of the 40k fiction I am astounded you are oblivious to it. Anyway, Angron was depicted as incredibly violent long before the story of his implants was made up. But you are probably very young and have not read much of the earlier background material.

I find your comparison of the Emperors' approach to those of the Romans to be laughable and it indicates you dont know squat about the Romans. When the Romans conquered a new people their general approach was to let the people continue to worship their local Gods as long as they also paid respect to the Roman gods. It was the strict monotheism of Christians that really led to trouble for that group as a few other social factors. There were not any worlds where the emperor left local religions intact.

WH40K stories are pretty cheesy and not exactly high level science fiction but I feel kind of sorry for you because your just not "getting it."

SpaceTiger
23-04-2013, 13:02
For someone with such a black and white viewpoint you throw the word ignorance around quite a bit.Black and white? I have acknowledged that the Emp is a bastard.



Moreover a lot of the things you say are not entirely supported. As an example you say that the squats were formed due to radiation, warp or chemical effects. This is actually not true. The squats were from high gravity worlds and their body size was the result of adaptation. This did not require any radiation or chemicals or the warp.
I was saying that the Emp was tolerant of genetic drift. Sorry if my post was not clear.



Your statement about Angron while true is not the whole picture, if you had a broader viewpoint and a better understanding of literature you would have noticed what most others have noticed,I know that. Still the Angron is crazy.


a rather elementary and basic theme from mythology of Greece, the primarchs, like Greek Gods, have their flaws and this is what makes them interesting to write about. The source of these flaws of course was the emperor.They weren't even raised by the Emp. The flaws they have are flaws that humans have as well.


This has been blatantly repeated in so much of the 40k fiction I am astounded you are oblivious to it. Anyway, Angron was depicted as incredibly violent long before the story of his implants was made up. But you are probably very young and have not read much of the earlier background material.Background changes.



I find your comparison of the Emperors' approach to those of the Romans to be laughable and it indicates you dont know squat about the Romans. When the Romans conquered a new people their general approach was to let the people continue to worship their local Gods as long as they also paid respect to the Roman gods. It was the strict monotheism of Christians that really led to trouble for that group as a few other social factors. There were not any worlds where the emperor left local religions intact.I was talking about the conquest.



WH40K stories are pretty cheesy and not exactly high level science fiction but I feel kind of sorry for you because your just not "getting it."It seems to me that you're the one not getting it.

SpaceTiger
23-04-2013, 14:39
Posting evidence that DAoT humanity weren't alien lovers:

Discovered in the early years of the Age of Technology, Alpha Shalish
was originally known as the crimson planet, for it glowed a deep red
hue when glimpsed from orbit.

'W'armed by the energies of two suns,
the planet was verdant, rich in both flora and fauna. The pioneers
who named Alpha Shalish and marked it for prime conquest did
not need to employ any of the atmosphere-fixing wonders invented
at that time - neither the oxy-converter, self-sustaining hab-domes,
nor ion discharging reactors.

There was strong resistance to human
colonisation, however,by xenos species whose very type has
been lost over the years. Early resistance was rectified by planet
scorching - a slash and burn bombardment that, a decade later when
the colonists arrived,left an unpopulated world, ripe for cultivation.


The new settlers found ancient xenos ruins predating their arrival
by many thousands of years, but these were dozed over and buried
beneath their new endeavours. Progress was swift in those days, and
expansion was spurred by the discovery of rich mineral mines in the
neighboring systems. As the largest and most inhabitable planet on
the clearest.W'arp route, Alpha Shalish was soon a thriving port world.

ryng_sting
23-04-2013, 15:25
Personally I can't stands the Retcon that happened with The Golden Throne... originally it was contrusted AFTER Horus was defeated with The Emperor telling Dorn what to do... making it exist before hand and making it the control device for the Human Webway was just plain stupid...

Whereas having the all-but-dead Emperor tell Dorn to scratch-build one of the most advanced machines in the Imperium made perfect sense...

JWhex
24-04-2013, 05:30
Whereas the all-but-dead Emperor getting Dorn build the whole thing from scratch while he waited made perfect sense...

Yes I agree, this always was a very weak plot point and while I am no fan of unneeded retcons this one plugs up a gaping chasm of a whole.

mdeceiver79
24-04-2013, 07:35
@JWhex
Your post is pretty inflammatory. "be laughable and it indicates you don't know squat about the Romans" stuff like that just shows a plain lack of respect for a fellow forum user. And drawing condescending conclusions about someones age isn't something you should do in civilised conversation.

That said fluff changes and is generally very inconsistant. A book you 15 years ago is no longer considered strict canon. Discussing such a topic is fine but saying someone is wrong because they have read a different (and possibly more up to date version of the fluff) shows an ignorance you are so opposed to.

JWhex
24-04-2013, 10:15
@JWhex
Your post is pretty inflammatory. "be laughable and it indicates you don't know squat about the Romans" stuff like that just shows a plain lack of respect for a fellow forum user. And drawing condescending conclusions about someones age isn't something you should do in civilised conversation.

That said fluff changes and is generally very inconsistant. A book you 15 years ago is no longer considered strict canon. Discussing such a topic is fine but saying someone is wrong because they have read a different (and possibly more up to date version of the fluff) shows an ignorance you are so opposed to.

Spacetiger was the one that on multiple occasions said I was posting from ignorance, and other forum users have told him to chill out

SpaceTiger
24-04-2013, 13:06
@JWhex
Your post is pretty inflammatory. "be laughable and it indicates you don't know squat about the Romans" stuff like that just shows a plain lack of respect for a fellow forum user. And drawing condescending conclusions about someones age isn't something you should do in civilised conversation.

That said fluff changes and is generally very inconsistant. A book you 15 years ago is no longer considered strict canon. Discussing such a topic is fine but saying someone is wrong because they have read a different (and possibly more up to date version of the fluff) shows an ignorance you are so opposed to.I was the inflammatory one actually.

Man, I have been on SB for far too long. Cause what I did here would not be considered bad at all cause I did make arguments than insults.

yabbadabba
24-04-2013, 21:04
A book you 15 years ago is no longer considered strict canon. There is no canon outside of GW's IP and the dogmatic approach of some of the community. The 40K universe is now in a position of multiple interpretations of various parts of its history.

Canon is as useful as using a carrot as a printer.

Brother Vaneb
25-04-2013, 20:52
Just to throw it out there in Outcast Dead when Kai meets the Emp in his 'dreams' The Emperor says a quote that I'll paraphrase. It basically goes "You can be omnipotent or omniscient, but not both at the same time". The Emp implies he's omniscient, sorta. So we can infer he's not omnipotent.

He then goes that sometimes you can't win and the best thing you can do is tie.

That's what I think he did. Assuming he's omniscient, or at least very knowledgeable about possible futures, he did the best he could within his power.

Imagine playing a Chess game with an unlimited number of restarts and take-backs. Going through all the possibilities, though, you realize you can only hope to draw or lose.

So you pick to draw, knowing that it's the best option.